Posted by Barbara Graham on December 15, 2010 at 7:56 AM
I've wondered from the beginning and even more so lately how those of you who are so good feel about those of us who are not so good, whether we're new or not, being here and posting images alongside yours. I know that this isn't the only commercial outlet most of you have, but do you feel that the more of us who post less-than-excellent images the less people will come here and view and perhaps purchase your own images? Do you think we lower the value of NPN?
This is a general question, not specific on the side of excellence or less than excellence to any particular person. I'd love to hear anyone's general thoughts on this. Thank you.
In my experience when a bunch of pros get together, talk about business and locations is as close as we get to photography. We talk about everything else under the sun, but most of us are pretty inclined to talk about something other than photography.
Mix in some beginners and the talk about photography gets lively in a hurry. Nothing like a beginner's enthusiasm and questions to stir me into new thoughts and ideas. And I like it!
Posted by Max Waugh on December 15, 2010 at 8:21 AM
Barbara, it's important to remember that several of the full time professionals on NPN have many of us semi- and non-professionals as clients and customers when it comes to workshops and trips. So from that standpoint I'm sure they don't mind having us around.
Max
Posted by Luke Ormand on December 15, 2010 at 9:15 AM
A lot of people that started on NPN were "not-so-good". Once they invested in new equipment, and learned from "the pros" they quickly climbed the ladder. I'll include myself in that group... some of my first posts were A-W-F-U-L
Here's a funny example of my point for you Barbara-
Two weeks ago I was shooting a major industrial "event," but I was one of 11 pros on hand. It turned out that each of the subcontractors on the project had a photographer, so there was a real gaggle of pros lounging together between shoots.
What did we talk about? Weather, politics, economics, kids, grandkids, and so on.
Then a guy came into the room with a point and shoot and asked how to make it work outdoors in the cold and low light.
Holy cow!
Talk about a chorus of voices and advice. We were all delighted to help, and of course it got competitive. Within moments after the guy left (dazed, I think!), we started talking electric cars.
Posted by Bill Chambers on December 15, 2010 at 10:30 AM
Barbara, first, I'm no pro so take this with a grain of salt. The nice thing (one of many) about NPN is that those who are less experienced can gain insights and knowledge from those who are more experienced. I have found the welcoming attitude here to be exceptional, and without condescension. Everyone is more than willing to lend critiques, advice, tidbits, suggestions, shortcuts, etc. Don't worry about being less experienced, you've got to start somewhere, and NPN is a great place to start.
Posted by Barbara Graham on December 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM
Bill,
I have found the welcoming attitude here to be exceptional, and without condescension. Everyone is more than willing to lend critiques, advice, tidbits, suggestions, shortcuts, etc.
I complete agree with this. It's amazing, actually. I still have a hard time comprehending it sometimes. Sometimes I look at the name of a person who comments on an image I post and it's just amazing to me to actually have interaction with people of that stature, for lack of a better word at the moment, in this field.
I'll ditto what Luke said above.
We "older" ones WELCOME you "newer" ones. For every one of us , there will ALWAYS be some with "better" techniques and others with "lesser" techniques - and all of us grow from the interactions and posts of others.
Sandy
Posted by Gary Yeoh on December 15, 2010 at 7:44 PM
Barbara:
Its great to see how quickly newbies advanced with the help of 'pros' in NPN. You are a perfect example. Your images now are as good as many who have been around for awhile in just matter of months. I know I have learnt a lot and picked up loads of tips on NPN. The amazing thing is, as Hank said, the pros are eager to help.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on December 15, 2010 at 8:49 PM
TWhat makes this website work,with critique, comments, responses and most important civility, is that we want it to work. In the 10 1/2 years I have been here (yep, that is almost literally day one), I can think of only two occasions where Jim has had to step in. There probably have been a couple of more that I missed, but it can't be all that many more.
For the pro vs newbie, those of us who shoot professionally are here because we enjoy helping others. We're photography geeks - anything to help the cause I don't think that the presence of new photographers hurts the site. Instead, I think it helps it, the photographers and especially us. There is a lot to be said for seeing other ideas, the same subject presented a different way, and taking the time to think about what is being presented. It is too easy to get into a photographic rut or to start shooting by rote.
Not every image here is going to be good. Some of them will be bad. But it is kind of like learning to ride a bicycle. You can have all the book knowledge in the world but until you go out and crash a few times, it ain't going to do you any good what-so-ever. The more experienced photographers remember what it is like to crash.
Posted by Michael Lotito on December 15, 2010 at 9:31 PM
As a total amateur I find this site very helpful. I can remember some of the first things I posted and comments that totally went over my head. With more and more posts and looking at images I have become much more critical of my work. Many elements have to come together to get a great shot some of which we can control some of which we can't. I try to provide critique where I can but I am still learning myself. Used properly this site and its critique forms provide an environment of continuous improvement.
I've sold at least one image to a complete stranger. Does that make me a pro? I think not, but I appreciated the sale! I've been around here for about 4 years now. I imagine opinions vary about how "good' or not my images are. But I do know for sure that they are better then when I first joined here. Everything I have learned, and gained in photography is because of the helpful advice, and criticism I have recieved from folks here. It's not just cyber interaction either. You will develope relationships with folks here, and become friends with some or many. It's a lot of fun to plan on group get togethers and stuff. Just remember, everyone was a newby once! It's a good thing that everyone here seems to remember that as well.
Personally, I am here on NPN because I want to learn and have discovered that photography is one of those "lifelong learning" adventures that keep people enthused about life and involved in it. The other main thing that keeps me enthused about life and involved in it is to be of help to other people. NPN is a good place for that, too. Learning something has worth in itself but gains more value when shared.
The advent of new features on NPN that enable members to offer prints for sale hopefully is completely secondary to why people would come here. First and foremost, I hope that NPN remains a place for photographers-- beginners as well as pros and every skill level in between.
Posted by Bret Edge on December 16, 2010 at 10:31 PM
I began participating on NPN at a time when I had only a couple years under my belt and was still running film through my camera. Frankly, my work pretty much sucked. Without NPN, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be where I am today. This has been a tremendous resource in so many ways and one for which I'll be forever grateful.
It is because of the welcome, nurturing, supportive and friendly atmosphere at NPN that I've been around here for almost 10 years. As a grizzled old veteran of the site, I feel it's the newcomers whose infectious passion for nature photography that are most responsible for the success of NPN. Yes, the pro's and the old timers add value but without the "not so good" photographers and "less-than-excellent" photographs NPN would be nothing more than yet another website filled with pretty pictures. The newcomers keep the spark alive, ignite wonderful conversations and at times help remind us why we make photographs. In no way do I feel like their presence lowers the value of NPN.
Posted by Lorna Taylor on January 25, 2011 at 12:18 PM
I will just say Thank You for letting us newbies in to play with the Big Boys(and Girls) .I am a hugely competitive gal ( blood type a+) but only with myself and getting feedback and seeing so many amazing image help push me out of my comfort zone everyday to strive to see my images in a new way and present them so. Even thought butterflies take over as soon as I hit that post button and tears well up because I can't delete. I value all of your patients and comments and for letting this newbie in to the club house.Cheers
Discussion
14 repliesThis is a general question, not specific on the side of excellence or less than excellence to any particular person. I'd love to hear anyone's general thoughts on this. Thank you.
Mix in some beginners and the talk about photography gets lively in a hurry. Nothing like a beginner's enthusiasm and questions to stir me into new thoughts and ideas. And I like it!
Max
Two weeks ago I was shooting a major industrial "event," but I was one of 11 pros on hand. It turned out that each of the subcontractors on the project had a photographer, so there was a real gaggle of pros lounging together between shoots.
What did we talk about? Weather, politics, economics, kids, grandkids, and so on.
Then a guy came into the room with a point and shoot and asked how to make it work outdoors in the cold and low light.
Holy cow!
Talk about a chorus of voices and advice. We were all delighted to help, and of course it got competitive. Within moments after the guy left (dazed, I think!), we started talking electric cars.
I complete agree with this. It's amazing, actually. I still have a hard time comprehending it sometimes. Sometimes I look at the name of a person who comments on an image I post and it's just amazing to me to actually have interaction with people of that stature, for lack of a better word at the moment, in this field.
We "older" ones WELCOME you "newer" ones. For every one of us , there will ALWAYS be some with "better" techniques and others with "lesser" techniques - and all of us grow from the interactions and posts of others.
Sandy
Its great to see how quickly newbies advanced with the help of 'pros' in NPN. You are a perfect example. Your images now are as good as many who have been around for awhile in just matter of months. I know I have learnt a lot and picked up loads of tips on NPN. The amazing thing is, as Hank said, the pros are eager to help.
For the pro vs newbie, those of us who shoot professionally are here because we enjoy helping others. We're photography geeks - anything to help the cause
Not every image here is going to be good. Some of them will be bad. But it is kind of like learning to ride a bicycle. You can have all the book knowledge in the world but until you go out and crash a few times, it ain't going to do you any good what-so-ever. The more experienced photographers remember what it is like to crash.
Chris
Personally, I am here on NPN because I want to learn and have discovered that photography is one of those "lifelong learning" adventures that keep people enthused about life and involved in it. The other main thing that keeps me enthused about life and involved in it is to be of help to other people. NPN is a good place for that, too. Learning something has worth in itself but gains more value when shared.
The advent of new features on NPN that enable members to offer prints for sale hopefully is completely secondary to why people would come here. First and foremost, I hope that NPN remains a place for photographers-- beginners as well as pros and every skill level in between.
It is because of the welcome, nurturing, supportive and friendly atmosphere at NPN that I've been around here for almost 10 years. As a grizzled old veteran of the site, I feel it's the newcomers whose infectious passion for nature photography that are most responsible for the success of NPN. Yes, the pro's and the old timers add value but without the "not so good" photographers and "less-than-excellent" photographs NPN would be nothing more than yet another website filled with pretty pictures. The newcomers keep the spark alive, ignite wonderful conversations and at times help remind us why we make photographs. In no way do I feel like their presence lowers the value of NPN.