Image Color Change After Web Upload

I'm wondering if this issue is isolated to my computer or if others have this problem: A B&W image that looks just the way I want it to when viewed in my photo editing programs looks more "brown" after it's uploaded to the web (both in NP galleries and my own website). I have to add about +10 of blue to the image before uploading it for it to look the same on the web (and also in my Windows viewer) as it does in my editing programs. The problem isn't nearly as pronounced for color images but I still find with some that I need to over saturate before uploading.

Now that I've figured it out I just automatically alter my B&Ws before uploading but it's a nuisance and I'm wondering if its a common problem?

Barry - What color space are you saving your image in before uploading? What browser are you using?

The usual problem with web images changing is that people are using a non color-managed browser and not converting (not assigning - converting) their images to sRGB before posting.

David,

I'm saving in sRGB color space with embedded profile. I use the Save for Web command in PS4 with with Convert to sRGB and Embed Profile boxes checked. The browser doesn't seem to matter but I typically use Google Chrome. Plus the Saved for Web image looks the same as it does on the web (i.e., with the color change) if I open the image in the Windows Viewer. The change is much more obvious with a B&W image than a color.

Can you post an unretouched and a corrected version of the b&w image in question here?

Yes. Here is the corrected image that I posted today in the ESS gallery:

And here is the unretouched verson straight from PS 4:

Looking at the two images here I see the difference is a little more subtle than it is looking at them in Windows Viewer. But I've done the same side by side comparison on images uploaded to my website and the differences were even more pronounced.

I wonder if this is a matter of perception and personal preference more than color management.

The first image (which doesn't have an embedded profile) shows blue values a few points above red and green throughout the image giving it a slightly cool tone.

The second image is completely neutral. The RGB values are identical at any given pixel.

I prefer the first because I like a cool tone for B&W but both are "correct".

I see the difference, but the unretouched version looks like a true b&w image to me.
To check, I desaturated the image in PS and there were no changes. Checked the info. palette and there was no color cast. It's tagged with sRGB color space.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help. FWIW, I do like the cool toning you added.

Barry,

You seem to have a problem of perception here rather than color management. Do a Google search for the "Take Color" software. It is a tiny free utility that lives on your desktop and measures the RGB value of any pixel you place the cursor over. Color picker Pro is another option for this.

Using Take Color the tones in your uncorrected image all measure totally neutral on my screen (i.e. 45,45,45) whereas the corrected ones are all slightly higher in green and notably higher in blue (i.e. 43,44,49). If you are seeing the uncorrected image as 'warm' it is your eye that is creating the impression. Is the background that you are using to edit different from the white that is used here? And what is the background on your website? What you see an image against can skew your impression of tones and hues in the image.

Thanks all for the input. Actually I'm not really talking about what's "correct" or "neutral" or if the retouched version is better or worse than the unretouched. Just the fact that what I see in my editing programs (I use both PS4 and Capture NX and the image looks exactly the same when opened in both) is not the same after uploading to the web (both here and on my website) and to get the image to match what I want it to look like on the web I have to increase the blue. The retouched version here matches the image in PS4 almost identically whereas the unretouched version is a little off. Neither are "correct", just different and I was wondering why.

With all of the variables of posting images to be viewed on the web that we can't control (monitor calibrations, laptops vs desktops, backgrounds, browsers, etc.) these differences are probably too subtle to matter anyway. But always interesting feedback on these forums and I'm always learning something from them.

Are you uploading the image in sRGB or another color space? It can make a significant difference to a color image's hue if you upload to the web in Adobe RGB or another color space rather than sRGB. I've never tried experimenting with B&W images in different color spaces but based on the shifts I've seen with color photos it makes sense that it might account for the subtle shift you are experiencing. FWIW I have noticed slight shifts between Photoshop/Lightroom and other image browsers or editing software on the same computer. I have even noticed that images are slightly brighter in LR than in PS although the two seem to be consistent with hue. I find that using sRGB is the safest route for sharing images to other software and/or devices. They all seem to be able to handle that.

See Barry's second post re: color space.

Barry,

Double check your settings in PS when you save the files. The image in ES&S and the "blue" image in this thread do no have an embedded profile. The "brown" image in this thread does have an sRGB profile embedded.

Just the fact that what I see in my editing programs (I use both PS4 and Capture NX and the image looks exactly the same when opened in both) is not the same after uploading to the web (both here and on my website)

Barry - I don't believe Chrome is color managed. And neither is IE. Firefox is, if it's setup right, as is Safari. Are you sure you're looking at a color managed browser? I wouldn''t actually expect the web image to look the same as PS and Capture NX if it's not being viewed in a properly color managed browser.

If you are certain you're using a color managed browser, then perhaps what Mark mentioned with the embedded profiles could be the source of your issue. FWIW, I've had problems with Save For Web and have found that sometimes it's different than a simple "Save As..."

Thanks guys. You know, I think what it comes down to is since there's no way to control how each viewer is looking at the images posted on the web on any website and there are so many small differences between web browsers, monitors, etc. that there's not much point in getting too concerned over small differences. It'd be nice if we knew that everyone viewing one of our images is seeing exactly the same image as we intend but that's just not going to happen over the web. Since I sell prints at art festivals I'm more concerned about how my prints look and that I have full control over. This was an interesting thread though.

.....there's no way to control how each viewer is looking at the images posted on the web on any website and there are so many small differences between web browsers, monitors, etc.

Barry, exactly. Thought I would finally chime in here. You're exactly right and the "best" answer to that problem is insuring every image you post on the web has an sRGB profile. Unfortunate, but true, that this smaller color space will be displayed by all browsers the same, whether they are color managed or not. It is the most common denominator. If you make sure your meta data and profile says "sRGB IECxxxxxxwhatever" then you should feel confident the image is displaying properly - or I should say you give yourself the best chance of having your work displayed as you intended (not withstanding all the variances in monitors, room lighting, etc.)

Hope that makes sense. thanks for posting a good topic and hope other folks learned something as well.

Lon

Unfortunate, but true, that this smaller color space will be displayed by all browsers the same, whether they are color managed or not.

Lon - I think you realize this with the other statements you made, but to clarify, sRGB just gets you sort of close to what most browsers/monitors will display. A monitor that isn't calibrated, using a non color-managed browser, could still show things off by quite a bit from what is intended.

or I should say you give yourself the best chance of having your work displayed as you intended (not withstanding all the variances in monitors, room lighting, etc.)

David, Agreed! With the exception about the "non color-managed" browser. That's my point, in that a non color-managed browser by default will display colors as if they were sRGB even though they don't interpret "profiles."

I think we're on the same page....

Lon

That's my point, in that a non color-managed browser by default will display colors as if they were sRGB even though they don't interpret "profiles."

[nit-pick]
Montiors don't really display sRGB - they just dump data in their native color space (which is different monitor to monitor). A lot of monitors just happen to be pretty close to sRGB. So when you send an unmanaged file to the screen, it comes out pretty close to what was intended. If monitors aren't close to sRGB, this doesn't necessarily hold.

If you have a wide-gamut monitor - which most new ones seem to be these days - things can look wonky even on images posted in sRGB.
[/nit-pick]