Posted by Cynthia Spence on December 31, 2010 at 10:11 AM
OK...so I've been experimenting trying to do the best thing to keep quality. I recently asked a question about exporting from LR to Photoshop Elements with Tiff then saving as a Jpeg. I did that and the Jpeg option for saving doesn't come up with a 16 bit tiff...so it was converted to 8 bit (losing quality?) and then it does. However, when I saved the tiff as a jpeg without resizing with all the adjustments including noise reduction it didn't look as good as when I just exported it as jpeg (from RAW) and saved it with the adjustments as jpeg. Is this just in my head, or because a tiff file is so huge that there is much more compression and it doesn't look as good? Why is it so huge? Is dng a better option for exporting and saving adjustments for future jpegs? AND if a converted jpeg is imported and exported again (don't ask) from LR does that qualify as another "save" and loses quality? Just trying to fill in the blanks of all this tech. I have to say that 16 bit tiff looked really good though. Thanks!
Posted by Greg Lessard on December 31, 2010 at 12:40 PM
I am not an expert in this, but here a few basic things to consider.
First keep it simple.
JPEG is a lossy format. Tiff is not. Both RAW and TIFF are huge files. Once you convert your RAW, you can save in TIFF w/out losing any quality. However, if you choose to share your photos online or through email, you will likely need to convert your large TIFF into a smaller JPEG to be able to send or post it. TIFF files are usually too big for posting and emailing. I will keep the original TIFF file and "Save As" a JPEG. This creates two seperate files. You can preserve your details on the TIFF and share your photos with the JPEG. Don't get rid of the TIFF files. They take up space, but they preserve all of the details for future use.
There are many other ways to do this. I am sure others will post what works for them. This system happens to work for me. I hope it helps answer your question.
Cynthia, here is a suggested workflow that amplifies a bit on Greg's reply...
-Convert 16 bit RAW to 16 bit TIFF and save it (This 16 bit TIFF is your 'Master File')
-Perform any required adjustments, except for sharpening, to your Master TIFF File.
-When needed, duplicate your 16 bit Master File, flatten it and then save it under a new name.
-Next, convert this file to 8 bit TIFF and save it.
The next step assumes you're creating a Web image...
-Duplicate your 8 bit TIFF file, convert it's ICC Color Profile to sRGB, resize and sharpen it. (you can save this file, if it might be needed later)
-Use Save for the Web and Devices to create the JPG file, being sure that "ICC Profile" is checked.
I know this sounds like a bit of work, but it's really pretty easy, once you get into it. The advantage is that you have a, albeit large, TIFF master file which is lossless and supports layers that you can 'target' for other uses, such as the web or for printing.
Yes, TIFF files take up a lot of storage space. I have some layered TIFF master files that are over 1 GB in size (mine are small compared to some of the files my LF cohorts use). However, these files are the foundation for any other use I may have for the image, and they are religously backed up.
I hope this helps. Let us know if there is something you need clarified.
Happy New Year!
--P
Posted by Bill Brennan on December 31, 2010 at 5:12 PM
Cynthia, you have received good advice; and as Preston suggests, try his workflow and you will like it. another suggestion is for you to use an external hard drive for your photo files. You will find the cost to be reasonable and you will drop your concerns about file size and storage.
Bill Brennan
Posted by Richard Ditch on January 1, 2011 at 1:37 PM
Try thinking of it in stages.
1. your raw file contains all the data that the camera sensor captured. You always want to keep this, either in the original raw format from your camera (.nef from a Nikon) or converted to DNG (a "universal" file format that is supposed to contain all the information from the raw file). I never work on an image until I've renamed a raw file and have copied it onto an external drive and either a second drive or CD.
2. the adjustments you make in raw conversion (white balance, exposure, contrast, etc.) are instructions that the raw converter applies to the image data. It gets incorporated into the image when you Save, which is really Exporting the adjusted data to a new file. I use Adobe Camera Raw for this, working in 16 bit and exporting in 16 bit to Photoshop. At this point the data doesn't have a file type - it is just data in the computer memory being used by Photoshop. You pick a file type when you do a Save from Photoshop. I add some meta data at this point (subject, location, etc.) and then save it as a .psd file. I could save as tif at this point since tif supports 16 bits and is lossless.
3. use adjustment layers whenever possible to do additional post processing in Photoshop. By using layers to change brightness, contrast, and color you preserve the underlying information that was exported from the raw converter. That way you can always fine tune any of the adjustments when you see how each step interacts. You can save this psd or tif file as often as you like without losing quality since the file is lossless. Keep this uncropped full size layered file as it serves as your corrected master. You want to save all the work you did adjusting the image so you can use it when needed in the future; you want to save it as layers so you can go back to it and fine tune it in the future when your skills improve or your tastes change,
4. make a copy, flatten all the layers, and covert to 8 bit. I save this as a tif file. It is only at this stage that I crop the image. I note the new file dimensions immediately after cropping so I can calculate the percent of the crop compared to the uncropped image. I put this calculated percent into the meta data so I know what I've got when I come back to the cropped image later.
5. resize the cropped image as needed (I make both a 1200 pixel and a 720 pixel version for posting at NPN) and name accordingly. These are still 8 bit tif files.
6. apply sharpening (for the first and only time) and your copyright. Save this: as a tif if you are going to print it; as a jpeg if you are going to post it to the web or email it. I keep all my meta data in the jpeg (my name and web site, camera EXIF, color profile). Jpeg is a lossy file format - you control the size of the file (in KB not pixels) by trading off image quality. The more quality you give up the smaller the file will be. Too much compression to make a small file will introduce "jpeg artifacts" which are most obvious wherever there is an abrupt change in image content (the edges of sharp detail).
When you are finished you will have the original file (raw or DNG), the layerd psd or tif master file, a flattened uncropped 8 bit tif file, a cropped 8 bit tif file, resized cropped 8 bit tif files, and jpeg files.
Cynthia, the JPG compression and quality issue does take a while to get your arms around. Hopefully all the good advice given here will be of help so just keep at it and one day it'll all be perfectly clear.
I think Richard offers a wonderful step by step approach that is very similar to my own. Well done Richard. Good info. I simplify even further. I only save two files - the original RAW capture and my final PSD master. From the PSD master it is fast and easy to create whatever else is needed but only WHEN needed so as not try to store something for every contingency. I have Photoshop actions to do so. When a jpg is needed for web or e-mail, boom, run the action, done. When I need a TIF for submission or printing, boom, run the action done. This method also allows cropping to different sizes if needed from the master before converting to TIF or JPG for max quality retention. This greatly simplifies storage and indeed external hard drives are my chosen method due to the price dropping so much and ease of use. It's very easy to maintain backups of my RAW "originals" and my PSD "finals".
Discussion
6 repliesFirst keep it simple.
JPEG is a lossy format. Tiff is not. Both RAW and TIFF are huge files. Once you convert your RAW, you can save in TIFF w/out losing any quality. However, if you choose to share your photos online or through email, you will likely need to convert your large TIFF into a smaller JPEG to be able to send or post it. TIFF files are usually too big for posting and emailing. I will keep the original TIFF file and "Save As" a JPEG. This creates two seperate files. You can preserve your details on the TIFF and share your photos with the JPEG. Don't get rid of the TIFF files. They take up space, but they preserve all of the details for future use.
There are many other ways to do this. I am sure others will post what works for them. This system happens to work for me. I hope it helps answer your question.
-Convert 16 bit RAW to 16 bit TIFF and save it (This 16 bit TIFF is your 'Master File')
-Perform any required adjustments, except for sharpening, to your Master TIFF File.
-When needed, duplicate your 16 bit Master File, flatten it and then save it under a new name.
-Next, convert this file to 8 bit TIFF and save it.
The next step assumes you're creating a Web image...
-Duplicate your 8 bit TIFF file, convert it's ICC Color Profile to sRGB, resize and sharpen it. (you can save this file, if it might be needed later)
-Use Save for the Web and Devices to create the JPG file, being sure that "ICC Profile" is checked.
I know this sounds like a bit of work, but it's really pretty easy, once you get into it. The advantage is that you have a, albeit large, TIFF master file which is lossless and supports layers that you can 'target' for other uses, such as the web or for printing.
Yes, TIFF files take up a lot of storage space. I have some layered TIFF master files that are over 1 GB in size (mine are small compared to some of the files my LF cohorts use). However, these files are the foundation for any other use I may have for the image, and they are religously backed up.
I hope this helps. Let us know if there is something you need clarified.
Happy New Year!
--P
Bill Brennan
1. your raw file contains all the data that the camera sensor captured. You always want to keep this, either in the original raw format from your camera (.nef from a Nikon) or converted to DNG (a "universal" file format that is supposed to contain all the information from the raw file). I never work on an image until I've renamed a raw file and have copied it onto an external drive and either a second drive or CD.
2. the adjustments you make in raw conversion (white balance, exposure, contrast, etc.) are instructions that the raw converter applies to the image data. It gets incorporated into the image when you Save, which is really Exporting the adjusted data to a new file. I use Adobe Camera Raw for this, working in 16 bit and exporting in 16 bit to Photoshop. At this point the data doesn't have a file type - it is just data in the computer memory being used by Photoshop. You pick a file type when you do a Save from Photoshop. I add some meta data at this point (subject, location, etc.) and then save it as a .psd file. I could save as tif at this point since tif supports 16 bits and is lossless.
3. use adjustment layers whenever possible to do additional post processing in Photoshop. By using layers to change brightness, contrast, and color you preserve the underlying information that was exported from the raw converter. That way you can always fine tune any of the adjustments when you see how each step interacts. You can save this psd or tif file as often as you like without losing quality since the file is lossless. Keep this uncropped full size layered file as it serves as your corrected master. You want to save all the work you did adjusting the image so you can use it when needed in the future; you want to save it as layers so you can go back to it and fine tune it in the future when your skills improve or your tastes change,
4. make a copy, flatten all the layers, and covert to 8 bit. I save this as a tif file. It is only at this stage that I crop the image. I note the new file dimensions immediately after cropping so I can calculate the percent of the crop compared to the uncropped image. I put this calculated percent into the meta data so I know what I've got when I come back to the cropped image later.
5. resize the cropped image as needed (I make both a 1200 pixel and a 720 pixel version for posting at NPN) and name accordingly. These are still 8 bit tif files.
6. apply sharpening (for the first and only time) and your copyright. Save this: as a tif if you are going to print it; as a jpeg if you are going to post it to the web or email it. I keep all my meta data in the jpeg (my name and web site, camera EXIF, color profile). Jpeg is a lossy file format - you control the size of the file (in KB not pixels) by trading off image quality. The more quality you give up the smaller the file will be. Too much compression to make a small file will introduce "jpeg artifacts" which are most obvious wherever there is an abrupt change in image content (the edges of sharp detail).
When you are finished you will have the original file (raw or DNG), the layerd psd or tif master file, a flattened uncropped 8 bit tif file, a cropped 8 bit tif file, resized cropped 8 bit tif files, and jpeg files.
I think Richard offers a wonderful step by step approach that is very similar to my own. Well done Richard. Good info. I simplify even further. I only save two files - the original RAW capture and my final PSD master. From the PSD master it is fast and easy to create whatever else is needed but only WHEN needed so as not try to store something for every contingency. I have Photoshop actions to do so. When a jpg is needed for web or e-mail, boom, run the action, done. When I need a TIF for submission or printing, boom, run the action done. This method also allows cropping to different sizes if needed from the master before converting to TIF or JPG for max quality retention. This greatly simplifies storage and indeed external hard drives are my chosen method due to the price dropping so much and ease of use. It's very easy to maintain backups of my RAW "originals" and my PSD "finals".
Good luck Cynthia.
JR