Lol, Here's an email i just got after posting (what i thought was) a relatively mild critique on ESS:
Message: I saw your critique this morning of a photo on NPN of Mt. Assiniboine. After seeing how you were critical of the photo, I visited your website. The stuff here is really bad. Unimaginative. Cliched. Stale. Boring Maybe technically sound but BORRRRRRING. Buddy, you\'re not one to be handing out advice.
Course, it's not until someone puts up a stanrosephotossuck.com website that i can really feel accomplished
Posted by David Rogers on January 9, 2011 at 2:38 PM
....heading over to godaddy.com now to register a new domain.....
Some people...what can you do? Not much but go by what I think: It's their opinion. Listen. Understand. Move on.
LOL!!
I, for one, appreciate your honest critiques..perhap more honest than most but very valuable.
As for your images - I guess appreciation is in the eye of the beholder. This guy apparently is blind.
Sandy
I can relate - I used to have an anonymous flamer hammer me every time I commented on an image or posted an image - he/she got incredibly rude (the email to you is exceptionally tame in comparison!). While I just "consider the source" and ignore those types of comments and/or emails, you have to wonder why anyone would bother wasting the time to send such an email (must have WAY too much free time on his/her hands).
I'm guessing it didn't crush you too much...
Cheers...
Brad
Posted by Kent Staubus on January 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM
It's too bad that some people take an honest critique so personally. If they were to become more objective themselves, they would become better photographers.
Kent in SD
Posted by Tyson Fisher on January 9, 2011 at 4:00 PM
I don't understand the motivation behind this sort of low vibration bs. You do great work!
It's too bad that some people take an honest critique so personally. If they were to become more objective themselves, they would become better photographers.
This is the bottom line to me.
Having said that , I will also say that you learn over time what in an image is going to bother who, and if that particular thing doesn't bother you at the present time in your own image, then that's a decision you make for yourself, but if you're going to post the image you have to be open to the critique. Sometimes I have to give it a few minutes, but it rarely takes longer than that for me to become glad for the critique. The bottom line here is (or should be from the fact that these are critique galleries) to become a better photographer.
I've only just started making very mild critiques (and only because you guys all told me to!) , but I'm kind of waiting for my first irritated or angry email myself.
Posted by John Mumaw on January 9, 2011 at 4:20 PM
The irony is that your observation in that post was entirely correct! In fact, that's just the sort of observation that helps conscientious photographers produce better images in the future.
I, for one, always appreciate having these sort of small errors pointed out to me here.
Your work certainly is not unimaginative. Your critique on that particular image was purely technical. Therefore that dude got it wrong anyway because he aimed at the aesthetics and the creativity (or in his eyes lack thereof) in his mail to you, while he admited that technically your work is good. Very contradictory...
Posted by Brad Mangas on January 9, 2011 at 5:44 PM
A very immature comment of a personal nature towards you no doubt Stan, although it was done on a personal communication level (an email) instead of a public response such as in a forum immaturity paints the picture. My first thought was, why would you share that here? But as the case may be, this is interesting as it is actually a critique of a critique. Some peoples skin are thicker (or thinner) than others and thus lend to emotional overtones when unable to communicate an opinion articulately. I try to be active in the critique process as much as time allows and have been with many images that personally I don't care for all that much. My comments may range from improvements that I would make if it were up to me or just my personal interpretation of the image but either way they are simply my opinion and to be taken as such. It's like the old saying if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. I've read many of your comments Stan and you always give a clear and usually direct personal opinion of the image, for goodness sake that's what a critique is! Even on some of my own images posted you have shared very direct opinions on them whether I agreed or not really isn't the point, I appreciated what you had to say even if they seem (again my opinion) to have a roughness to them hey I'm a big boy I can take it. I would like to think we are all adult enough to take an opinion as just that.
If there is anything that seems to be of a swayed content on NPN it is probably the amount of accolades in comments that a select few receive on images posted, even though they may be deserving in nature bias seems to play a roll in the equality of specific comments, while other excellent images from the little known named photographers go relatively un-commented on or are critiqued to a different degree. I don't necessarily think this is wrong per say but it is evident. Again we should be glad we are free to express ourselves when and where we want. That being said, it's very easy to jump on the bandwagon and follow suit with all the wonderful accolades of Beautiful, Stunning, Fantastic, Super, Breathtaking, Outstanding etc. (which by the way I think are very shallow comments, (again my opinion) when providing and actual critique of substance takes more understanding and insight put forth. Or even to follow suit of a less than desirable comment just because someone previous points it out. If every image I posted received nothing but negative comments I would more than likely stop posting images (and maybe take up bowling) but then again if every image I posted received dozens of outstanding positive adjectives it would seem wonderful but seeking such status could possibly be of ego boosting conception. I personally know of an accomplished photographer who has quietly distanced themselves from NPN for one of those very reasons which is a loss for all of us. There is a happy medium when it comes to critique as with proper communication with any person but the bottom line is, it's just an opinion of which does tell something about the one providing the critique.
Posted by John Mumaw on January 9, 2011 at 5:57 PM
Interesting how the creator of that particular image incorporated many of the suggestions offered (incl. yours) in his reposted version, and how much more improved that version is for it.
Good points, Brad, thanks! As for why i shared--people share all sorts of things here, it's a pretty laid back group. I shared it partly because i was a bit flabergasted by it and found it pretty funny (and funny things are always worth sharing!) but probably also partly i shared it cause my first instinct was to reply to his email (i didnt) and let him know what i think of his opinion--posting it here was a way of me letting off steam so i didnt feel the urge to reply (maybe--im just psychoanalyzing my own motives ) I did Google the author out of curiosity and found one hit where he blasted Ian Plant for having boring/cliche shots, so at least im in good company! Thanks for the support, folks--not to worry my feelings havent been hurt
Posted by Jim DeWitt on January 9, 2011 at 6:05 PM
I've gotten similar messages, Stan. I've ignored them. Your posting the message here will probably solve your specific problem.
The broader issue Brad Mangas raises seems to me to be mostly a matter of expectations. While the criticism I've gotten here has been immensely helpful to me, this isn't an exclusively professional forum. There's a very mixed bag of skill levels here, both as photographers and as critiquers. And there's the random factor of who is around on the forums when you post your photo. It's far from a perfect system, but it's also far better than anything else I've found on the web. Plus, it's one of the finest group of people with whom I've had the pleasure of virtual relationships.
Posted by Luke Ormand on January 9, 2011 at 6:11 PM
Stan,
HOW many times must I say that e-mails from me are CONFIDENTIAL? JK, you're stuff isn't boring in the least.. people are idiots, that's all that can be said.
Currently there are talks on the local birding listserv of setting up a flicker group to post pictures of photographers who "get too close" to rare birds. Birders are being encouraged to take there photos and post them on this site for all to see.... It seems like there are people who get joy out of publicly "outing" others and putting them down.
Posted by Eva McDermott on January 9, 2011 at 7:58 PM
In my experience on NPN, I have had one such email with a follow up e-mail but forget that...... .I see this kinda BS on DA all the time and just hope we are not becoming the next deviantart. We are all here to learn, and if ya can't take the constructive comments, don't post. I rarely see comments that are non constructive here. BTW - I love your work Stan especially YOUR dunes.
Like water on a duck's back, Stan. Clearly this person has not seen your most recent post on Photo Art or unimaginative might not have been one of his points.
Posted by Richard Wong on January 9, 2011 at 8:51 PM
Sorry Stan. I'll try not to be so harsh next time.
Anyway, in regard to the thread, I'd say there is a reason why the title of the galleries are called Photo Critique Forum. The person places images to be critiqued. There's no need to attack the people offering critiques. These are solicited critiques which is much different than what that person who emailed you did.
Many years ago I taught a one day class for our small volunteer fire department whose subject was 'responding to the hazardous materials incident'.
During one of the breaks, one of the fire fighters took me aside and said one word: "Borrrrring!".
As you can imagine, it was a rather shaking remark. Trouble is, it was true. Upon reflection during the remainder of the break, I took what he said to heart and changed my tactics and style for the remainder of the class. At the end of the session, the same fire fighter came up to me and said, " That was the ticket!"
I think your work is excellent, Stan. It shows vision and creativity; likewise with the critiques that you offer so freely. However, I am willing to bet that the e-mail you received made you look inward, just as the remark made to me by my fire fighter made me look inward and objectively evaluate what I was doing.
While the comments made by the un-named person were rather harsh and untrue (in my opinion) these kinds of remarks provide an opportunity for growth.
--P
Posted by Kah Kit Yoong on January 10, 2011 at 4:26 AM
I've only see one Assiniboine shot in ESS recently. Hmmm I wonder what trouble I can stir up.
Stan, I'm amazed that you got such an e-mail. I always look forward to your critiques because I know I'll learn something.
Brad made some great points in his response. The reason I left Flickr (yes, I admit I started with Flickr) was because of the "Great Shot!" comments with few actual critiques. They were good for the ego but not for my development as a photographer. I also saw some hateful comments (not on my photos, fortunately) on Flickr. I thought I had left both of those behind when I came here. I've noticed more of the quick "Beautiful!" sort of commentary on NPN too, and I cringe whenever I see them because I hope it isn't a sign of things to come. I am myself still learning how to look at an image with a critical eye, so I can relate to Barbara's comments.
Anway, keep the critiques coming!
~Michlee
Posted by Jim Bullard on January 10, 2011 at 8:36 AM
Stan, You didn't mention whether the email was from the photographer whose work you commented on or just a passing troll. It sounds like the latter in which case I would pay it not attention at all. Such people get their kicks by getting others all stirred up. If it was the photographer I would advise him/her not to be so thin skinned. On one hand you are never going to create something that everyone likes so take criticism with a grain of salt. On the other hand it is good to be reminded occasionally that photography is a medium of communication. If an image you've created gets a negative reception perhaps you need to question "why?". What seemed great and innovative to you might not travel well in the wider world.
Posted by Robert Dayton on January 10, 2011 at 10:03 AM
Brush it off, Stan. Your critiques have been valuable and helpful
to me, and you have a very beautiful gallery with many vibrant
and unique images.
Posted by Ron Bielefeld on January 10, 2011 at 10:59 AM
I agree, just don't even think another thought about this person. Keep giving good, honest, helpful critiques. I do when I critique, and I have gotten similar emails. I just laugh and move on. These people will never "get it," so don't waste your time. Keep up the good work!
Posted by Bill Brennan on January 10, 2011 at 11:03 AM
As has been posted earlier, Stan, fugetaboudit and move on. You provide this site with great value in many ways.
Person is a jerk and needs to learn to say thank you for your critique.
Bill Brennan
Posted by Stan Rose on January 10, 2011 at 11:42 AM
Thanks for all the responses folks, just shows once again what a class act group of people NPN is.
I didnt intend for this to become a philosophical discussion--just thought it was a funny email--but some interesting points made here, so here's a couple quick observations:
I personally dont mind making some "Awesome", or "Beautiful" comments now and then--the level of quality in the galleries is so high sometimes those kind of comments pretty much sum up the critique for me (although I guess with a little more time on my hands i could write more about what makes it an effective photo for me).
Second, As Jim mentions above, this was definitely a passing troll. What I have noticed over the past couple of years is that there seem to be a lot of angry people on the internet. Virtually every site, particularly the news sites, have comment capabilities now, and it seems like the predominant comments left by folks are attacks on each other. I don't know if this is just the virtual community or a more troubling sign of the community as a whole--that's a lengthy discussion for some other day (maybe i should join the blog crowd!) Thanks again, folks-
Posted by Larry Fischer on January 10, 2011 at 11:53 AM
Like my dad used to say: "You get more from a kick in the pants than a pat on the back."
Don't post and expect critiques if all you want to hear is the good.
Hang in there Stan. I for one appreciate your critiques.
the fisch
Posted by Doug Roane on January 10, 2011 at 12:09 PM
that was so immature! some people can be so foolish.
Posted by Hali Sowle on January 10, 2011 at 8:09 PM
How sad that someone can be so childish. I take it that the person sending the message was not the person who's image you were critiquing (or perhaps they were using an "alias" in shame) I thought the whole idea behind posting in the galleries and asking for a critique is that you learn what others find attractive in an image, This person seems to have an issue with that, if that's the case they shouldn't visit or post images and should grow up some.
I'm glad you are thick skinned because your images are beautiful, they are vibrant and captivating to me, Some day I'll actually post in ESS and I look forward to learning from your critiques
Posted by Bill Fach on January 10, 2011 at 9:00 PM
Stan: You haven't been moderating long enough! Of course the Flora crowd used to be really brutal to me but since I can't remember the last time I posted a stale, unimaginative or boring shot they've been pretty well behaved .
I just reread your initial post carefully and your last response. From some of the comments in the thread I think there is an assumption that the image poster is the person who sent you the e-mail. I'll admit it was my first impression. If he was not I think you should edit or clarify the post so that a guy who is a fairly new member doesn't get ostracized.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on January 11, 2011 at 10:10 AM
The first comment I ever received on an image I posted on the internet was not very kind, but I now thank that person because in the long run, he/she made me a better photographer. That comment also makes me stop and think when critiquing other photographers images: be helpful by not only pointing out anything that could use improvement, but also mention what is good about the image.
I've received vitriolic hate email too.I guess have nothing better to do with their time. Anyways, your images are awesome Stan. As far as critiques go, I think you have to pick and choose what to say and believe when you read. For instance, on the last image I posted I was told it needed more contrast by someone and then another person told me that it had too much contrast.
Posted by Stan Rose on January 11, 2011 at 12:11 PM
Bill: Yes, to be perfectly clear the emailer was NOT the image poster--the poster is a class act as are most folks on NPN
Michael, Absolutely! There's a lot of subjectivity obviously in critique. The person who posts the photo has to decide what is valuable input and what isn't. When i first started posting stuff on NPN i was more likley to rework my photos if someone suggested that; now i mainly use the comments to either reinforce or dispel my own doubts about a shot--if im comfortable that everything in my photo is fine-as-is (and i rarely am!) then i just happily accept any critique and move on...
Thanks again, folks!
I, also, have received nasty comments like this from someone on this site. It really curbed my participation for a while...now I know just to ignore stuff like that....I have a right to my opinion and so do you!
Posted by Lorna Taylor on January 25, 2011 at 12:01 PM
You must be doing something right Stan if you are starting to ruffle feathers!
What many forget is that a critique is a opinion or a suggestion in a different way of see the image ,it is completely open to the creator of the image to use this information or not if for some reason it does not fit with their vision, it is not meant as a personal attack. Sorry to hear that this was not the case for you and it was meant as an attack. I value and appreciate any comments or critiques you make on my images and appreciate your support as I hone my craft.Cheers you Big Bully!!
Discussion
36 repliesMessage: I saw your critique this morning of a photo on NPN of Mt. Assiniboine. After seeing how you were critical of the photo, I visited your website. The stuff here is really bad. Unimaginative. Cliched. Stale. Boring Maybe technically sound but BORRRRRRING. Buddy, you\'re not one to be handing out advice.
Course, it's not until someone puts up a stanrosephotossuck.com website that i can really feel accomplished
....heading over to godaddy.com now to register a new domain.....
Some people...what can you do? Not much but go by what I think: It's their opinion. Listen. Understand. Move on.
I, for one, appreciate your honest critiques..perhap more honest than most
As for your images - I guess appreciation is in the eye of the beholder. This guy apparently is blind.
Sandy
I can relate - I used to have an anonymous flamer hammer me every time I commented on an image or posted an image - he/she got incredibly rude (the email to you is exceptionally tame in comparison!). While I just "consider the source" and ignore those types of comments and/or emails, you have to wonder why anyone would bother wasting the time to send such an email (must have WAY too much free time on his/her hands).
I'm guessing it didn't crush you too much...
Cheers...
Brad
Kent in SD
This is the bottom line to me.
Having said that
I've only just started making very mild critiques (and only because you guys all told me to!) , but I'm kind of waiting for my first irritated or angry email myself.
I, for one, always appreciate having these sort of small errors pointed out to me here.
If there is anything that seems to be of a swayed content on NPN it is probably the amount of accolades in comments that a select few receive on images posted, even though they may be deserving in nature bias seems to play a roll in the equality of specific comments, while other excellent images from the little known named photographers go relatively un-commented on or are critiqued to a different degree. I don't necessarily think this is wrong per say but it is evident. Again we should be glad we are free to express ourselves when and where we want. That being said, it's very easy to jump on the bandwagon and follow suit with all the wonderful accolades of Beautiful, Stunning, Fantastic, Super, Breathtaking, Outstanding etc. (which by the way I think are very shallow comments, (again my opinion) when providing and actual critique of substance takes more understanding and insight put forth. Or even to follow suit of a less than desirable comment just because someone previous points it out. If every image I posted received nothing but negative comments I would more than likely stop posting images (and maybe take up bowling) but then again if every image I posted received dozens of outstanding positive adjectives it would seem wonderful but seeking such status could possibly be of ego boosting conception. I personally know of an accomplished photographer who has quietly distanced themselves from NPN for one of those very reasons which is a loss for all of us. There is a happy medium when it comes to critique as with proper communication with any person but the bottom line is, it's just an opinion of which does tell something about the one providing the critique.
The broader issue Brad Mangas raises seems to me to be mostly a matter of expectations. While the criticism I've gotten here has been immensely helpful to me, this isn't an exclusively professional forum. There's a very mixed bag of skill levels here, both as photographers and as critiquers. And there's the random factor of who is around on the forums when you post your photo. It's far from a perfect system, but it's also far better than anything else I've found on the web. Plus, it's one of the finest group of people with whom I've had the pleasure of virtual relationships.
HOW many times must I say that e-mails from me are CONFIDENTIAL?
Currently there are talks on the local birding listserv of setting up a flicker group to post pictures of photographers who "get too close" to rare birds. Birders are being encouraged to take there photos and post them on this site for all to see.... It seems like there are people who get joy out of publicly "outing" others and putting them down.
Anyway, in regard to the thread, I'd say there is a reason why the title of the galleries are called Photo Critique Forum. The person places images to be critiqued. There's no need to attack the people offering critiques. These are solicited critiques which is much different than what that person who emailed you did.
Seriously, Some people are just morons!
Chris
During one of the breaks, one of the fire fighters took me aside and said one word: "Borrrrring!".
As you can imagine, it was a rather shaking remark. Trouble is, it was true. Upon reflection during the remainder of the break, I took what he said to heart and changed my tactics and style for the remainder of the class. At the end of the session, the same fire fighter came up to me and said, " That was the ticket!"
I think your work is excellent, Stan. It shows vision and creativity; likewise with the critiques that you offer so freely. However, I am willing to bet that the e-mail you received made you look inward, just as the remark made to me by my fire fighter made me look inward and objectively evaluate what I was doing.
While the comments made by the un-named person were rather harsh and untrue (in my opinion) these kinds of remarks provide an opportunity for growth.
--P
Brad made some great points in his response. The reason I left Flickr (yes, I admit I started with Flickr) was because of the "Great Shot!" comments with few actual critiques. They were good for the ego but not for my development as a photographer. I also saw some hateful comments (not on my photos, fortunately) on Flickr. I thought I had left both of those behind when I came here. I've noticed more of the quick "Beautiful!" sort of commentary on NPN too, and I cringe whenever I see them because I hope it isn't a sign of things to come. I am myself still learning how to look at an image with a critical eye, so I can relate to Barbara's comments.
Anway, keep the critiques coming!
~Michlee
to me, and you have a very beautiful gallery with many vibrant
and unique images.
Person is a jerk and needs to learn to say thank you for your critique.
Bill Brennan
I didnt intend for this to become a philosophical discussion--just thought it was a funny email--but some interesting points made here, so here's a couple quick observations:
I personally dont mind making some "Awesome", or "Beautiful" comments now and then--the level of quality in the galleries is so high sometimes those kind of comments pretty much sum up the critique for me (although I guess with a little more time on my hands i could write more about what makes it an effective photo for me).
Second, As Jim mentions above, this was definitely a passing troll. What I have noticed over the past couple of years is that there seem to be a lot of angry people on the internet. Virtually every site, particularly the news sites, have comment capabilities now, and it seems like the predominant comments left by folks are attacks on each other. I don't know if this is just the virtual community or a more troubling sign of the community as a whole--that's a lengthy discussion for some other day (maybe i should join the blog crowd!) Thanks again, folks-
Don't post and expect critiques if all you want to hear is the good.
Hang in there Stan. I for one appreciate your critiques.
the fisch
I'm glad you are thick skinned because your images are beautiful, they are vibrant and captivating to me, Some day I'll actually post in ESS and I look forward to learning from your critiques
I just reread your initial post carefully and your last response. From some of the comments in the thread I think there is an assumption that the image poster is the person who sent you the e-mail. I'll admit it was my first impression. If he was not I think you should edit or clarify the post so that a guy who is a fairly new member doesn't get ostracized.
Michael, Absolutely! There's a lot of subjectivity obviously in critique. The person who posts the photo has to decide what is valuable input and what isn't. When i first started posting stuff on NPN i was more likley to rework my photos if someone suggested that; now i mainly use the comments to either reinforce or dispel my own doubts about a shot--if im comfortable that everything in my photo is fine-as-is (and i rarely am!) then i just happily accept any critique and move on...
Thanks again, folks!
What many forget is that a critique is a opinion or a suggestion in a different way of see the image ,it is completely open to the creator of the image to use this information or not if for some reason it does not fit with their vision, it is not meant as a personal attack. Sorry to hear that this was not the case for you and it was meant as an attack. I value and appreciate any comments or critiques you make on my images and appreciate your support as I hone my craft.Cheers you Big Bully!!