Posted by Chris Rice on January 13, 2011 at 3:54 PM
In an effort to piggyback on Hackett's post regarding your interpretations of what a photographic icon is, I thought I would see if I could start an engaging discussion about another subject. The notion of 'field presence', and how you, the photographer, come off to others (photographers/non-photographers), has always been an interesting topic personally. I know this type of discussion has probably been had numerous times in the general NPN forum, but seriously I'd rather not go there; instead I'd enjoy involving the RMNP group more intimately about this subject. As photography becomes easier and more accessible, more and more people are taking it up as a diversion, equaling more folks sharing spaces and interacting with others in the field - but it's this interaction that has me intrigued, because you hear about all sorts of them - good, bad, amicable, abrasive, dominating, etc.
In my experiences when I was serious about photography I can honestly say that there have been a few select times when I felt like I was the elitist among a group of people at a given location at a peak moment. My routine was that I would not talk to anyone, or even make eye contact with anyone. If anybody came up to me I would obvously be friendly, because that is who I am, but I would not have a conversation, because I was in the middle of photographing. In one instance that I can remember very well was this man 'hovering' around me, watching my every move, While this made me boil inside, I never said anything to this man - and if I did, it would have been awfully rude and embarrassing. Now, of course, after the 'lightshow', great conversations and some adult beverages were shared at the parking lots....(especially the one at Delicate Arch)
Now I think some of you know me well enough that this may surprise you, but its true as true gets, and to this day I really don't know why I felt that sense of entitlement, maybe it was because I was young and felt like I knew it all. Once I opened up my own gallery space, that 'chip' on the shoulder - got whittled down quite fast. :)
On the flipside, I have many more good experiences among my photography cohorts than bad ones, and the few bad ones I can recall, were very unsettling indeed. While I won't get into any details about said experiences, I am wondering if we as a photo community are going to have more and more issues with each other in the field, especially during peak times. While this is probably an obvious statement, I'd love to open this up for some good dialogue.
Further, I'd love to hear about how you handle yourself in a shared situation, and if you thought of yourself as the 'elitist' or 'the pro'. I want honesty, people!!!! Let's start a good discussion!!!
Posted by Bill Brennan on January 13, 2011 at 4:33 PM
Christopher, so far so good for me. During Fall Foliage peak times, I have found everyone to be quite cordial, interested, polite. As for my behavior, I am far from an elitist. One of my joys is to put my tripod aside and offer to take a group photo for families etc.
Sometimes in group shoots, I am distracted and make silly goofs; so, I tend to keep to myself to optimize the opportunity. I notice others doing the same. Then afterwards we socialize.
A good thought that may give you guidance is: Relationships are important; things are not. Focus on relationships not things.
Bill Brennan
Posted by Chris Rice on January 13, 2011 at 4:44 PM
Bill,
I'm glad that you've had good experiences before. I think most of us have. I haven't ever been a jerk to anyone, I am just saying that I keep to myself and often wonder if that behavior comes off as elitist. Not that it matters too much, its only an exercise in mindset while out there. I really wasn't looking for guidance either. I have 'resolved' that inner 'problem' by simply not getting out into nature that much anymore. In the off chance that I do get out there and its a busy spot, I move on and let others enjoy that solitude. I try to minimize any inconvenience to my fellow man in the field or anywhere for that matter.
Well, I share many of your experiences it seems, Christopher. I will share the most embarassing experience for me. Several years back I had experienced a run of crossings with "photographers" who thought they were God's gift to photography, so I was "up to here" with them so to speak. This because after getting all sorts of field advice, I later checked their websites and found most to be lacking in talent imo. Well, on this particular day, I was at Mayflower Gulch in the spring to shoot wildflowers and the structures. I was shooting along and was approached by someone who watched me for awhile and then shared that the light, he thought, had too much dynamic range for me to capture everything. I arrogantly told him that I was using a 2 stop neutral density filter and that would handle the problem. He shared his name and card. When I developed the film, I ,of course, saw the light was beyond the film's range. Oh, and by the way, the photographer was Tony Litschewski.
I have since seen Tony and apoligized for my poor conduct.
I also experienced a very embarassing moment at Maroon Bells when one pro leading a tour had a conflict with another pro shooting that morning. Honestly, it was like watching elk in rut as they traded insults. All of course could be heard by anyone at the lake as sound carries so very well over water.
I confess, my field conduct too often depends on my mood, or frame of mind. Some days I want to be by myself and other days I long to interact with someone else who loves doing what I love doing. I have made an effort to be more open to others in the field, because for the most part, this collection of artist's we call nature photographers are a freely sharing and selfless group. I am most often proud to be a part of that group.
Posted by Jim Casteel on January 13, 2011 at 6:28 PM
I have to say, I am probably one of those annoying guys who won't shut up. Photography is part of my stress relief. Because of this I try to not take my interactions with others too seriously. If I want to be a grump I can go to work! I generally say hi to most people I see.
My experiences with others have been across the gamut. Most of the people I see are great. Others just seem to want to inform you how much you suck or show how great they are. While I was in Bisti last year I came across this guy from Germany who told me everything I was doing wrong with my photography and was giving me HDR 101 as well as multi focal 101 in the field because we (Bacon, Rich V and myself) apparently didn't know what we were doing. None of his wisdom was welcomed but we acted like humans should. We politely nodded our heads and smiled and thanked him for his technical prowess. He left feeling satisfied and we had something to talk about on our way back to camp. During the same trip we met a couple from Canada, they were some of the most fascinating people we have met.
I know that photography is an important part of our lives but I have to say, there is nothing so important about it that you can't act civil with those around you. If nothing else photography is a great time to practice your people skills, even if it is to say I would like to be left alone.
Posted by Chris Rice on January 13, 2011 at 6:34 PM
Morris, great story about you and Tony, thanks for sharing that. Sometimes we do get a little competitive out there, which is completely understandable. As artists, we strive to be the best, and when you have others around you competing for the same light, scene, what have you, it can often be a bit disconcerting*. With that aside, we just have to accept that fact and make the best of it.
I am aware that within our group some of us are more serious about their craft than others, you get that with anything. Photography, has a strange appeal, and much of it is derived from the gear in my opinion. The premise that one who has the best gear is more accomplished is a very true statement, due to the fact that they have worked their way up from less sophistication. But, we all have seen the dudes with the big guns who haven't a clue of how to use them - yes it does exist - must be nice!
Anyway, thanks for chiming in guys, I really enjoy the more cathartic side of this really strange artform that we all like to do
*of course, would you really care? In my opinion, not really, because it's really how you market yourself versus someone else (or the huge pool of photography). Of course, you would like to distinguish yourself from the rest of the pack - that is the million dollar question I suppose.
Very interesting subject you started here, so I will rant on it. My experience may be quite a bit different than most people on here as I am very new to photography. The reason I say this is because it is all fresh in my mind, every interaction with photographers has happened over the last 3 years for me. I also have mixed feelings on this one because of the different forums I belong to. I can honestly say the people on this forum are without a doubt the most mature and fantastic people I have met. This goes with just randomly running into folks on the field to people commenting on work on here, to emailing someone for help or assistance. It is without a doubt the best group I have seen.
Overall the large majority of people I have interacted with have all been great in my short photography road. I have made some incredible friends and met some fantastic people and I really look forward to more of that. That said there are a few I have run into that definitely have the elitist mentality. Some of these when I was a total beginner and others even now. These are folks that don't even give you the time of day or don't think you really exist on this world. For whatever reason you feel like you have to prove yourself to these folks. They feel they belong to a tight group of elite. In almost all cases I will admit these folks are the ones who do have fantastic work, but to me that does not excuse the behavior in question. I would never look over someones shoulder or pester them when they want to be left alone, or even go as far as ask someone where they shot a photograph or how they did something, so to me I am always amazed when they treat everyone outside of the elite group like they don't exist.
All that said I think we all at one point or another compared our own work to someone else and thought that our work was better, but I personally try to never let that get to me or how I interact with someone. Quite the opposite I recall myself when I had no clue what I was doing and wanted critique, comments, inspiration and help to become better. I hope to never get to the point where I turn a cold shoulder to anyone just because I think my work might be better, which it usually is not. I certainly understand that some photographers want to be left alone when they are out on a shoot or that some photographers really enjoy being out in nature by themselves. If you are one of these people I respect that and would never intrude on you. Me however I am pretty outspoken and enjoy the company of others. All of my best photography friends I met out on the field somewhere by just starting a conversation. That's just me though...
Posted by Jack Garrett on January 13, 2011 at 6:42 PM
Interesting topic Christopher. It goes both ways for me. I have 3 other very close photographer friends that I shoot with and we work well together, sharing information about exposures and comps, etc. When I shoot with them, I expect conversations back and forth while we shoot so I'm OK with it. Other times when I'm off by myself, I'm not only there for the shot..I want to experience the whole atmoshpere of the location in my own little world. I'm concentrating on light, comp, exposure, etc. In those times I would be bothered if someone else just came up and started giving advice, or in general wrecking my peace in that place.
Now, about photo workshop leaders....they do not OWN the space and have no right to impose their authority off on those of us who came alone to enjoy the experience. Most are pretty decent but there are a few who think of themselves as "elite" and that we should bow down in their presence. In a lot of cases when I've compared my shots to theirs, I don't think I'm so bad after all .
My goal this year is to look for some scenes that are different from what I've done in the past....still landscapes but maybe some off-beaten areas. And to not just click away but to enjoy the entire experience and when everything falls into place, then capture the shot. I don't think it is being elitist if you are doing your best to concentrate and don't want to be bothered by all the outside hinderances. I'll be cordial, but focused on the task at hand.
Posted by Chris Rice on January 13, 2011 at 6:53 PM
Hey Koveh -- your work IS good! Otherwise you wouldn't be doing it, right? I like to think of my body of work as 'solid', not exceptional, but I am pleased with my abilities, and am able to be confident in that. In my gallery, which I closed last year, I had the fortunate ability to have First Friday art shows every month. That meant that every month, I had hundreds of patrons coming through and seeing my artwork. I would typically work the room and listen to what people were saying. When you hear people as they leave the space, and they say 'thank you, great work, it's beautiful', that right there was all I needed to keep going.
I think that many of us are hung up on our abilities, and add a little self-deprecating humor to make it sound like you suck!! Why would you do that??? >>> The thing is, we're all really damn good, solid photographers. We've found our way and are honing our craft. We aren't all of the sudden 'incredible', it takes LOTS of time to get there. You'll take a shitload of crappy images before you get the good ones, while other times you'll nail shots you wouldn't have thought of. It's what keeps us moving ahead with our hobby.
Koveh is right about this group. Please, have you seen some of the other regional forums? enough said. How about Phil Askey's site? Enough said, again. We are a very unusually tight-knit group. We have an annual shindig!
Posted by Bob Falcone on January 13, 2011 at 7:29 PM
VERY interesting topic...
For the most part, I've had very good experiences when shooting in a "crowd". I can't say I've ever had anyone be rude to me, but I did have a couple of guys kind of snicker at me at Mesa Arch one morning when I tried to explain to my wife (she is NOT a photographer) what was the advantage of the large format equipment they were using. Trying to make it as simplistic as possible, I told her they could make a 8x10" photo by just laying the negative on the paper and exposing it (like I said...simplistic, but she got it).
I tend to be kinda chatty with other photographers, especially when we're all waiting around for the light to get "just right". My skills are NOT on par with 99% of the folks on this forum, but I usually try to help someone who looks like they're struggling, at least with pointers for best angle or location. On the other hand, unless they ask me to "chimp" with them, I don't hang over anyones shoulders and critique their exposure, composition, etc. I haven't had anyone tell me to get lost, so they're either ignoring me or cursing me when I leave.
The few people I've had the good fortune to meet from this forum have all be great, and I hope I haven't annoyed any of them. I'd LIKE to think I also have something to offer, even if it's just my departure!
Posted by Art Escobado on January 13, 2011 at 7:34 PM
Well I have a diminutive physique which generally keeps me from being questioned or noticed-except in three circumstances. Because I do not appear as large or dominant I often get asked to take pictures of people. I found this irritating because even though larger photo guys will be right beside the requesting person, the requestor will go out of their way to ask me. It feels a little disrespectful as if I'm more subservient or should be because of my physicality. I always take the picture but not with the greatest enthusiasm. A) I'm irritated and B)Because I'm trying to work on a composition or am getting ready for the sunset/sunrise. If you see me peering through the viewfinder or in scouting mode let me set up shop first. It takes my all at new places to get it right and be ready for what I hope will be a spectacular light show. For places where I know what I'm shooting and am setup it's not as big a deal. The second circumstance-I get more tripod action. (At least I'm getting action har-har) By that I mean people will give me less space and just set up tripod shop interlacing their legs with mine. I noticed they do that with much less frequency to larger people. Then they are the kooks. For whatever reason they single me out and start talking to me about inane bullshit, UFOs, and energy vortexes. Please.
Chris - Tell people about your John Sexton/Fallen Roof Ruin encounter. Seriously. You've skirted around it for a while now in a few different posts. It's time.
Art - Being on the opposite end of the size spectrum has its oddities too. For example, as the largest person in the room guys are always touching me (and no one else in the group). It's creepy. In the field, in stores, and especially in the out-of-the-way restaurants we photographers tend to frequent. It happens so often that we made a game out of it on one trip. <shudders>
It's interesting to me that this group is now seen as supportive, mature, etc. We used to have a decent amount of "flaming" going on here. In fact, that was the initial impetus for the Annual Shindig - get people to meet face-to-face so that they would better understand where others were coming from, not take comments personally, and not create/escalate arguments on the forum. It seems to have worked fairly decently.
The Shindig, the absence of a couple of the original instigators, the return to regular use of their medications by some contributors, and the restraint of many, have made this a "kinder, gentler" forum. Of course, I am amble to say this only because I have just taken my meds, which enable me to use some some (but not complete) self-restraint.
That being said, had John Sexton's minion said to me what he said to Chris, I would not have restrained myself from addressing him in a manner that could be overhead by his workshop attendees and which would have caused them to lose all respect for their leader and the minion to be cast off into the photographic wasteland. So, Chris, spill the beans baby!
Posted by Todd Caudle on January 13, 2011 at 8:50 PM
For whatever reason they single me out and start talking to me about inane bullshit...
Sorry. I'll try to remember not to do that in the future...
This is a really interesting subject, Chris. First I want to relate what it was like being the only (or one of just a few) photographer at concerts, and how I felt I was perceived by the non-photographer general public. I would usually need to be stationed somewhere near the stage before the house lights went down, and that made it feel like everybody in the place was looking right at me. Some people might relish that situation, but not me. I always felt like I had a target on me in that situation. Of course, having a camera around your neck at Red Rocks on a warm summer night was a lot like walking around with a puppy, in that it seemed to attract a lot of attention from cute girls. The difference being that they were more apt to drop their tops for a camera than they were for a puppy. So in that respect it was pretty cool.
As far as landscape photography around other photogs, when I was still shooting 4x5 I was always proud of that fact. I never felt like I was better than anyone else just because I was using a larger piece of film, but I was happy to be a successful member of a somewhat elite club. Nowadays (as back then) I'd prefer to be shooting by myself, and if I have a choice between shooting somewhere on my own or shooting somewhere with 100 of my best friends who I've never met, I'll go elsewhere. Sometimes that's not an option. If I've made the decision to shoot at Maroon Lake on a late-September morning, all other options have been taken off the table.
As one or two of you might know (I keep it a pretty well-guarded secret), I'm kind of a gregarious nutjob, so I do like to talk to people if I'm shooting nearby. I do NOT mind accommodating another photographer if there is limited space to shoot. Crossed tripod legs don't bother me all that much, especially if asked first. And I've been very lucky to have run across a few shooters who feel the same way (I'm lookin' at you, Bob Dent! Alta Lakes, last October!), or were at least so intimidated by my amazingly manly physical presence that they didn't say anything.
But here's the real deal: If you want to make my day, ask me for help. If you're not quite as well versed in this wonderful craft as I am, having been doing it for so long, I welcome the opportunity to teach. That's not to say I know it all. I never will. I just know more than most because I've been doing it so long. I might not be in a position to drop everything and come to your aid, but if I can get the shot and also help someone else do so, I'm all over that!
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on January 13, 2011 at 10:09 PM
I love meeting other photographers in the field and sharing info about the area, or just having a great conversation - of course, there is a time for talk and a time to shut up.
I'm actually amazed at how considerate and polite photographers have been in some rather tight places, such as Mesa Arch and the Subway. Of course, it just takes one to spoil the experience for everyone. Fortunately that has been very rare. In each case it was a "Pro", or workshop leader who felt they were "entitled". Upper Antelope Canyon seems to bring out the worst in people. I had enough after my one visit.
I like Jim's comment about, "a great time to practice your people skills". When someone opens a conversation with, "that camera must take great pictures", I try to end the conversation as quickly and politely as possible. Maybe I should give those people a second chance, and not be so elitist.
Posted by Bill Bean on January 13, 2011 at 10:30 PM
What a great topic! Truly an insight into the collective psyche of some of us. When I'm out in the field for the most part I'm a loner. Most of my photo trips are solo and I've detailed many times how my family usually refuses to come along when I'm going shooting. Once the cameras are out of the bag and on the tripod I "zone out" and for the most part I'm oblivious to what's going on around me. I'm sure other shooters I encounter think I'm rude but that's not it at all. I talk to people for a living and most of the time I'm pretty gregarious and once the photographic spell is broken I'm glad to have a peer to talk to. The few times I've been shooting with friends I tend to wander off by myself. Again, not rude, just zoned out. In a crowd of shooters, like Todd, I don't mind people encroaching on my spot if they ask first.
On the other hand, I was shooting in Upper Antelope Canyon once and while setting up a shot a guy told me he was leading a workshop and I would have to move so his clients could get a better shot. When approached like that I usually get quite rude and often very profane. In this case after a few expletives I told him I was there first and would be done when I was done. They all waited while I spent 20 minutes composing and exposing a shot that would normally take 3 or 4 minutes max. Yeah...I can be a jerk sometimes.
The times I've been shooting with others have been great. It's always good to share thoughts and techniques with friends....AFTER I'm done shooting. See ya'll at the Shindig
Posted by Joe Rogers on January 14, 2011 at 12:00 AM
I'm a little late to the party, but, it is a great topic for discussion. Like Jim Casteel, landscape photography is a stess reliever for me and a great source of enjoyment. I'm a long way from the wonderful moutains and streams of Colorado and majestic scenery of Arizona and Utah, but that makes each new trip there especially rewarding for me.
Ive been a studio photographer for many years and tolerated no foolishness in my camera room to distract me from work. I can see it would be the same for many landscape pros in the field who want full attention to work and perfer to work alone. Fortunatly, I do not make my living photographing landscape. It is enjoyment. It is pure pleasure and does not bring the burden of work with it.This give me a freedom I do not have in the studio. I am gregarious by nature and love to visit and interact with people.I like to teach and I like to learn. I have met some wonderfully interesting people in the field. I have met some tremendously talented photographers on this forum in person, like Guy Smickle and John Mumaw. John, his wife, three guys from Ukraine, and two Navajo guides all had a great time under the stars on Hunt's Mesa. Yes, language was a problem.. John complained about not understanding my Texan drawl. .
The only real problem with people I have encountered was when a party of thirty- five French tourists threated the beat the shit out me for wandering into their field of vision at Monument Valley. I wasnt really worried, though. It would take many more Frenchmen than that to beat the shit out of anybody.
Thanks to all of you on this forum who share your talent, knowledge, and fellowship. I do, indeed, find it a mature group who will give you honest, constructive feedback. I think most here want to produce work that will enrich the lives of their viewer. What we get back is equal enrichment from the creative process.
Joe Rogers
Posted by Anne K. Rusk on January 14, 2011 at 12:16 AM
What a great topic! I normally interact on some level with the people I am shooting around, even if it's just a hello. This has helped at some busy locations where we are shoulder to shoulder to make the whole experience more fun. My husband is typically more quiet and "in the zone" so it is a good balance(I hope!).
Funny story at Mesa Arch one sunrise... I had gone up the side to enjoy the view and a different perspective, but could easily see down to the main, through-the-arch location where JR was. There was a woman with her tripod following him around as he was composing the shot prior to sunrise. As the light started getting good and he started snapping away, she took her camera off the tripod, walked over to where he was, laid on the ground and started shooting through his legs at Mesa Arch. He almost stepped on her when he moved! Mind you, we were the only 3 photographers there that morning, so there was plenty of space!
See you on the 29th!
This really is a great topic. For the most part I'm alot like Bill Bean. I usually go alone with, the exception of my dog. I've been told by friends and family not to do this or letsome one know where I'm going, but I rarely do. That's just me. Normally because most people I know don't want to get up at the crack of dawn much less drive to hours to see the sunrise. I usually go somewhere more off the beaten path just so I can spend time alone and do my own thing. Now, if I do run into someone that wants to give me advice, I don"t mind listening to what they have to say since I have a long way to as a photographer. And I rarely give advice except to maybe point out a nice location nearby that they might find intresting to shoot. or just chat for a few minutes about the shooting conditions or the subject matter. I might ask them which way they're headed just so I can stay out of their way. If a fiend asks me about how to improve their skills I don't mind sharing what I know, which doesn't take long. I can't say that I have had a bad experiance with other photographers but I have had words with some stupid campers that have camped in the middle of the trail before, or stampeded a heard of cattle in my direction while I was set up for a shoot.But that's a whole other topic.
Posted by Rohn B. McKee on January 14, 2011 at 12:22 AM
It used to be a guarantee that if one got up early and worked hard to get to, the spot, one would always be alone. Not anymore, especially in the Tetons and in Yellowstone. This past fall, photographing Elk, on the Madison, there were, always, at least, 25 photographers with nice equipment, we all got along and had a good time. photographing Wolves and Grzz. Is the same, all year long. I have witnessed 15 photographers set up an hour befor sunrise at the Moulton barn, GTNP all chatting and having a good time. The only way we will be alone is if we seek less iconic sites to work. Thankfully there are many many great spots to work out here in the west.
Posted by Scott Bacon on January 14, 2011 at 10:35 AM
Great discussion and insight into our community.
I know that I am sometimes perceived as elitest. I've been told so, after the fact, by people who are now my very good friends. But those who know me, know that's not who I am or what I'm about. It took me years, no decades, to realize it. I'm pretty sure its the initial impression I give off, and it comes from me being genuinely uncomfortable "breaking the ice." Apparently, I sometimes give people the feeling that I just don't want to interact with them. And its perceived as over-confidence when its actually self-doubt. But usually once that initial awkward hurdle is overcome, I'm generally regarded as friendly, helpful and sincere.
That perception often carries over in the field. I'm one of those that prefers to shoot alone, mostly because that's when I do my best work and gives me the most enjoyment. So I try to minimize my interaction with others. And when I do this, I give off the wrong impression. Even though I usually nod and smile or offer a short greeting, my under the covers uncomfortable-ness sometimes comes off as condescending and elitest, especially since encounters are brief and superficial. That's when I'm at my worst, and the truth couldn't be farther away. I really just want to (as many stated before) concentrate on the scene and light in front of me and go out for beers and camaraderie later.
When shooting the icons with large groups, I usually try to go about my own business. I try not to get into equipment comparisons and the like, though I'm happy to explain to people what gear I'm using (LF and tilt-shift lenses have generated many inquiries over the years). Photography is gear-driven, location bagging, testosterone competition for some, but I have no interest in that. I'm more apt to discuss light and conditions with people because that's more related to the beauty and 'experience' of being in the field. For me, THAT'S what its all about.
Posted by Koveh Tavakkol on January 14, 2011 at 11:52 AM
Scott your such an elitist snob. I totally kiiiiidddddddddd. I actually think you go out of your way to be friendly. Heck I about fell over when I saw a comment from you on my blog. I know what you and others mean about being out on the field though. Honestly even when I go on multi-day shooting trips with friends, when we are shooting we go our own way and there is not much interaction, but when the good light is over and your relaxing, that is when I usually start chatting and getting to know people.
And I've been very lucky to have run across a few shooters who feel the same way (I'm lookin' at you, Bob Dent! Alta Lakes, last October!)
That was an memorable evening. Everyone was able to take nice photos and enjoy time talking with other photographers.
Todd's comments about helping others sum up pretty well how I feel myself. I've had experiences where people were asking me lots of questions. I try to answer them as best I can. I know what it's like to have that shoe on the other foot, and I've been grateful to the photographers who've helped me. Plus, getting irritated or having a poor exchange with someone isn't likely to put me in the most creative of places.
As far as perception goes, if I'm around another photographer who is keeping to themself, I don't think anything about it. They're working. And if for some reason I'm keeping to myself, and someone thinks badly of me for it, then that's on them for assuming the worst about me.
Aloof, a loner, but not an A-hole. I rarely shoot in places with large crowds, preferring the solo experience and seeking places with top conservation priority. I do nod, say hello, and let folks look through the viewfinder when I have my 600 set up. But I really don't care for the big crowd around a NP icon, not my thing. I did enjoy photographing with other people twice last year, and TC was one. And I'm always happy top help folks.
Posted by Joshua Hardin on January 14, 2011 at 6:23 PM
You might have already seen this, but here's a link for you Bill.
I also usually prefer to photograph on my own and am often in my personal focused world when I'm out shooting unless someone approaches me. When they do I'm usually very open to having a conversation and I find most people are cordial. Most seem interested in where you've been shooting, current conditions, etc. You can get some good information this way especially on those seasonal voyages for photographing fall foliage or summer flowers or in places you aren't familiar with. Occasionally there are a few gearheads but I don't mind talking about tech stuff either as long as they don't take concentration away from getting a shot if the conditions are lining up nicely.
In my experiences at places like Mesa Arch or Maroon Bells so far I've had good luck and photographers have been accommodating to each other. Compared to experiences I’ve had photographing the fields/floors of sporting events or at breaking news situations these locations were tame.
Last fall while photographing from a roadside on Wilson Mesa I had an industrious landowner who was offering some rental deals on his house come up to strike a conversation with me and several other photographers. He had been even offering photographers coffee. He was an interesting guy and even though I could have taken a few more images then, the conversation was much more enjoyable. I much prefer his type of attitude about the “leaf-peeper paparazzi” (as some people in that neighborhood apparently call us) than those who stretch barbed wire and “Keep Out” signs along the roadside.
Quite frequently people I've met have been fellow forum members. Some of the most pleasant, memorable experiences I've had in the field have been when I've come across people like Todd after we were both waiting for a storm to clear at Molas Lake, Scott, Brent D., Ben & Jimmy in the Snowy Range, everyone who was on that Mayflower snowshoe trip a couple of years ago, Doug & John in the San Juans last fall. The list goes on. Looking forward to seeing you guys at the Shindig!
Posted by Bill Brennan on January 14, 2011 at 6:38 PM
Christopher, you have enough data to write an article for the Denver Post.
Anne's story gets first prize. Its a wonder that JR's friend did not set up her tripod while she was shooting through his legs.
Bill Brennan
Posted by Chris Rice on January 14, 2011 at 7:04 PM
Heh, that's sort of the idea, Bill, to get people engaged and talking. After all that what good is a forum if you don't have good conversations, rants, and lengthy discussion?
So, I'm really glad people piped in about this topic. I will tell you now that I do not think this way anymore, and actually never really did, but there were a few select times that I can recall that I totally zoned, and probably looked like a frickin idiot at the same time. But, what I have learned is that 99% of folks in the field are very friendly, helpful, cheerful, you name it. But it's that 1% bad element out there that thinks they are god's gift, and to this day I still wonder how these folks get through life.
So CAZ and I have had some great conversations about the wonderful world of nature photography and I shared an experience with him that I had in Utah, back in 2002 or 2003, that was unusual enough for merit. It happened at the 'trailhead' to the 3 Room Ruin (or Fallen Roof Ruin), and it was a situation where me and my buddy had just arrived around 10am to go down into Road Canyon. As we were putting our packs on, two white club vans pulled into the turnoff. We didn't really think anything of it, just another workshop, and we would be on our way down the wash way ahead of the group. As we heading down the trail, we were summoned by somebody, and were asked if we could return to the area later in the day, because there were 15 people going down to the ruin to get schooled by Mr. Sexton himself.
OK, so here was a really unusual request. Two gapers (me and my buddy), against 15 paying customers - competing for the same special remote location. Now, I like to avoid confrontation, and so does my friend, so we obliged, got back in our truck, and hit the road (and actually found some better ruins to explore!). In hindsight, we were there first, so presumably we were entitled to visit the ruin first. But I guess I was so wrapped in the idea that these people had spent good money, that I was interfering with their limited time and light, so I decided to put them ahead of me.
So I never made it back to 3 Room, but was there the year before. It's pretty magical, so if you get a chance go see it before it gets destroyed by 15 workshop attendees at a time
Posted by Doug Koepsel on January 14, 2011 at 9:13 PM
Since I have only been photographing landscapes for 2 years, I would hardly consider myself a pro, but rather a hobbyist. In this short time, I have tried to go to many different locations and have not had a negative encounter yet. Intertwined legs at Oxbow Bend led to a nice recommendation of locations. Derek VB of Sedona has talked freely to me while he was leading a workshop, as has another photographer doing a one-on-one workshop in CO. From those I have encountered in the field in the last 6 months from here on RMNP (John, Joshua, Shane, Rick, Jeremy and Adam), all have been friendly and helpful while shooting and afterwards. I hope to not run across a jerk (but likely it will happen sometime). At the same time, I hope I am not seen as one, but I do not have an alpha personality that might lead to rudeness or a holier- than-thou presumption. On the other hand, I do not know how my sometimes quietness and lack of comment may be construed at the moment by others, as I rarely talk effervescently. I am open to talking while shooting so do not think that would be an interference or inconvenience to me. I do not mind taking the time to take a tourist's photo on their P&S at an overlook at the Grand Canyon.
Probably the only elitist situation that I recall sitting in my craw was from a dry fly snob while fly fishing McDonald Pond in Montana 25 years ago.
Posted by Kalin Wilson on January 14, 2011 at 10:27 PM
Cool topic. It's interesting to read everyone's perspective.
I enjoy shooting with others and alone, but probably mostly alone. Like Josh, I get into my own personal zone. I don't mind being around other photogs at a location but I'll usually keep to myself and look for perspectives where I can deconflict myself from others. At the same time, I keep an eye out for NPNrs, and always wonder if someone I'm shooting next to is on RMNP, but I seldom ask - to my regret. When a conversation does come up, or if someone asks about my equipment or for help, I almost always enjoy the exchange, and like Todd, I enjoy teaching, although I don't know if I have much to teach.
I've had mixed experiences with workshops as most others have. One visit to Mesa Arch, I was sleeping in the parking lot when I noticed headlights coming down the hill. I beat feet to get up to the arch and stake my claim. I've never had a workshop leader ask me to move or anything, but I've been put off by the throng invading my space or forcing me to change my shoot plans because now my view is populated with bodies rather than flowers or something.
Overall, I enjoy running into friends, old and new, in the field, especially if it involves a cold beer or conversation over dinner. At the same time, I relish the solitude and soul recharge I get when I'm in the field alone.
And I'm really looking forward to the shindig! Guess I ought to get something printed.
Posted by Sarah Marino on January 16, 2011 at 11:35 AM
Interesting conversation. I have enjoyed reading everyone's entries.
In terms of my field presence, I always try to be quiet, light on the land, and unobtrusive, especially if others are present. While I have not had any really negative encounters with other photographers like some of those described here, I do find nature photographers to be an especially opinionated and somewhat judgmental group, especially on the anonymous internet and in public group settings. I make my living through consulting and am paid well for my opinion. If I go to a professional event like a luncheon, I would never start giving a bunch of unsolicited advice to my table mates and neither would any of my colleagues. If I encounter a group of photographers at a place like Oxbow Bend, the opinions and judgments about other photographers, their techniques, their gear, their approach to a scene, and other photographers not present seem to fly freely and loudly. In the last two years, I have only been in two places with more than two or three other photographers present – Oxbow Bend and Tunnel View in Yosemite – and both of these experiences were characterized by loud, verbal “pissing contests” between some of the other photographers present. One workshop leader in Grand Teton was loudly shouting instructions for what seemed like the opportunity to let everyone else know that he was, in fact, leading a workshop and was therefore superior to everyone else there that morning.
Standing in a setting like this is not the reason I am interested in nature photography and I generally try to avoid these places because it is an unpleasant experience for me. I prefer to be by myself, even if I arrived at a place with a friend, so hanging out with massive groups of loud strangers at iconic viewpoints isn’t high on my to-do list. I would like to develop more friendships with serious photographers, as I do enjoy the camaraderie and conversation that comes with spending time with small groups of other photographers, in the field or afterward.
Discussion
28 repliesIn my experiences when I was serious about photography I can honestly say that there have been a few select times when I felt like I was the elitist among a group of people at a given location at a peak moment. My routine was that I would not talk to anyone, or even make eye contact with anyone. If anybody came up to me I would obvously be friendly, because that is who I am, but I would not have a conversation, because I was in the middle of photographing. In one instance that I can remember very well was this man 'hovering' around me, watching my every move, While this made me boil inside, I never said anything to this man - and if I did, it would have been awfully rude and embarrassing. Now, of course, after the 'lightshow', great conversations and some adult beverages were shared at the parking lots....(especially the one at Delicate Arch)
Now I think some of you know me well enough that this may surprise you, but its true as true gets, and to this day I really don't know why I felt that sense of entitlement, maybe it was because I was young and felt like I knew it all. Once I opened up my own gallery space, that 'chip' on the shoulder - got whittled down quite fast. :)
On the flipside, I have many more good experiences among my photography cohorts than bad ones, and the few bad ones I can recall, were very unsettling indeed. While I won't get into any details about said experiences, I am wondering if we as a photo community are going to have more and more issues with each other in the field, especially during peak times. While this is probably an obvious statement, I'd love to open this up for some good dialogue.
Further, I'd love to hear about how you handle yourself in a shared situation, and if you thought of yourself as the 'elitist' or 'the pro'. I want honesty, people!!!! Let's start a good discussion!!!
Sometimes in group shoots, I am distracted and make silly goofs; so, I tend to keep to myself to optimize the opportunity. I notice others doing the same. Then afterwards we socialize.
A good thought that may give you guidance is: Relationships are important; things are not. Focus on relationships not things.
Bill Brennan
I'm glad that you've had good experiences before. I think most of us have. I haven't ever been a jerk to anyone, I am just saying that I keep to myself and often wonder if that behavior comes off as elitist. Not that it matters too much, its only an exercise in mindset while out there. I really wasn't looking for guidance either. I have 'resolved' that inner 'problem' by simply not getting out into nature that much anymore. In the off chance that I do get out there and its a busy spot, I move on and let others enjoy that solitude. I try to minimize any inconvenience to my fellow man in the field or anywhere for that matter.
I have since seen Tony and apoligized for my poor conduct.
I also experienced a very embarassing moment at Maroon Bells when one pro leading a tour had a conflict with another pro shooting that morning. Honestly, it was like watching elk in rut as they traded insults. All of course could be heard by anyone at the lake as sound carries so very well over water.
I confess, my field conduct too often depends on my mood, or frame of mind. Some days I want to be by myself and other days I long to interact with someone else who loves doing what I love doing. I have made an effort to be more open to others in the field, because for the most part, this collection of artist's we call nature photographers are a freely sharing and selfless group. I am most often proud to be a part of that group.
My experiences with others have been across the gamut. Most of the people I see are great. Others just seem to want to inform you how much you suck or show how great they are. While I was in Bisti last year I came across this guy from Germany who told me everything I was doing wrong with my photography and was giving me HDR 101 as well as multi focal 101 in the field because we (Bacon, Rich V and myself) apparently didn't know what we were doing. None of his wisdom was welcomed but we acted like humans should. We politely nodded our heads and smiled and thanked him for his technical prowess. He left feeling satisfied and we had something to talk about on our way back to camp. During the same trip we met a couple from Canada, they were some of the most fascinating people we have met.
I know that photography is an important part of our lives but I have to say, there is nothing so important about it that you can't act civil with those around you. If nothing else photography is a great time to practice your people skills, even if it is to say I would like to be left alone.
I am aware that within our group some of us are more serious about their craft than others, you get that with anything. Photography, has a strange appeal, and much of it is derived from the gear in my opinion. The premise that one who has the best gear is more accomplished is a very true statement, due to the fact that they have worked their way up from less sophistication. But, we all have seen the dudes with the big guns who haven't a clue of how to use them - yes it does exist - must be nice!
Anyway, thanks for chiming in guys, I really enjoy the more cathartic side of this really strange artform that we all like to do
*of course, would you really care? In my opinion, not really, because it's really how you market yourself versus someone else (or the huge pool of photography). Of course, you would like to distinguish yourself from the rest of the pack - that is the million dollar question I suppose.
Overall the large majority of people I have interacted with have all been great in my short photography road. I have made some incredible friends and met some fantastic people and I really look forward to more of that. That said there are a few I have run into that definitely have the elitist mentality. Some of these when I was a total beginner and others even now. These are folks that don't even give you the time of day or don't think you really exist on this world. For whatever reason you feel like you have to prove yourself to these folks. They feel they belong to a tight group of elite. In almost all cases I will admit these folks are the ones who do have fantastic work, but to me that does not excuse the behavior in question. I would never look over someones shoulder or pester them when they want to be left alone, or even go as far as ask someone where they shot a photograph or how they did something, so to me I am always amazed when they treat everyone outside of the elite group like they don't exist.
All that said I think we all at one point or another compared our own work to someone else and thought that our work was better, but I personally try to never let that get to me or how I interact with someone. Quite the opposite I recall myself when I had no clue what I was doing and wanted critique, comments, inspiration and help to become better. I hope to never get to the point where I turn a cold shoulder to anyone just because I think my work might be better, which it usually is not. I certainly understand that some photographers want to be left alone when they are out on a shoot or that some photographers really enjoy being out in nature by themselves. If you are one of these people I respect that and would never intrude on you. Me however I am pretty outspoken and enjoy the company of others. All of my best photography friends I met out on the field somewhere by just starting a conversation. That's just me though...
Now, about photo workshop leaders....they do not OWN the space and have no right to impose their authority off on those of us who came alone to enjoy the experience. Most are pretty decent but there are a few who think of themselves as "elite" and that we should bow down in their presence. In a lot of cases when I've compared my shots to theirs, I don't think I'm so bad after all .
My goal this year is to look for some scenes that are different from what I've done in the past....still landscapes but maybe some off-beaten areas. And to not just click away but to enjoy the entire experience and when everything falls into place, then capture the shot. I don't think it is being elitist if you are doing your best to concentrate and don't want to be bothered by all the outside hinderances. I'll be cordial, but focused on the task at hand.
I think that many of us are hung up on our abilities, and add a little self-deprecating humor to make it sound like you suck!! Why would you do that??? >>> The thing is, we're all really damn good, solid photographers. We've found our way and are honing our craft. We aren't all of the sudden 'incredible', it takes LOTS of time to get there. You'll take a shitload of crappy images before you get the good ones, while other times you'll nail shots you wouldn't have thought of. It's what keeps us moving ahead with our hobby.
Koveh is right about this group. Please, have you seen some of the other regional forums? enough said. How about Phil Askey's site? Enough said, again. We are a very unusually tight-knit group. We have an annual shindig!
For the most part, I've had very good experiences when shooting in a "crowd". I can't say I've ever had anyone be rude to me, but I did have a couple of guys kind of snicker at me at Mesa Arch one morning when I tried to explain to my wife (she is NOT a photographer) what was the advantage of the large format equipment they were using. Trying to make it as simplistic as possible, I told her they could make a 8x10" photo by just laying the negative on the paper and exposing it (like I said...simplistic, but she got it).
I tend to be kinda chatty with other photographers, especially when we're all waiting around for the light to get "just right". My skills are NOT on par with 99% of the folks on this forum, but I usually try to help someone who looks like they're struggling, at least with pointers for best angle or location. On the other hand, unless they ask me to "chimp" with them, I don't hang over anyones shoulders and critique their exposure, composition, etc. I haven't had anyone tell me to get lost, so they're either ignoring me or cursing me when I leave.
The few people I've had the good fortune to meet from this forum have all be great, and I hope I haven't annoyed any of them. I'd LIKE to think I also have something to offer, even if it's just my departure!
Art - Being on the opposite end of the size spectrum has its oddities too. For example, as the largest person in the room guys are always touching me (and no one else in the group). It's creepy. In the field, in stores, and especially in the out-of-the-way restaurants we photographers tend to frequent. It happens so often that we made a game out of it on one trip. <shudders>
It's interesting to me that this group is now seen as supportive, mature, etc. We used to have a decent amount of "flaming" going on here. In fact, that was the initial impetus for the Annual Shindig - get people to meet face-to-face so that they would better understand where others were coming from, not take comments personally, and not create/escalate arguments on the forum. It seems to have worked fairly decently.
The Shindig, the absence of a couple of the original instigators, the return to regular use of their medications by some contributors, and the restraint of many, have made this a "kinder, gentler" forum. Of course, I am amble to say this only because I have just taken my meds, which enable me to use some some (but not complete) self-restraint.
That being said, had John Sexton's minion said to me what he said to Chris, I would not have restrained myself from addressing him in a manner that could be overhead by his workshop attendees and which would have caused them to lose all respect for their leader and the minion to be cast off into the photographic wasteland. So, Chris, spill the beans baby!
Sorry. I'll try to remember not to do that in the future...
This is a really interesting subject, Chris. First I want to relate what it was like being the only (or one of just a few) photographer at concerts, and how I felt I was perceived by the non-photographer general public. I would usually need to be stationed somewhere near the stage before the house lights went down, and that made it feel like everybody in the place was looking right at me. Some people might relish that situation, but not me. I always felt like I had a target on me in that situation. Of course, having a camera around your neck at Red Rocks on a warm summer night was a lot like walking around with a puppy, in that it seemed to attract a lot of attention from cute girls. The difference being that they were more apt to drop their tops for a camera than they were for a puppy. So in that respect it was pretty cool.
As far as landscape photography around other photogs, when I was still shooting 4x5 I was always proud of that fact. I never felt like I was better than anyone else just because I was using a larger piece of film, but I was happy to be a successful member of a somewhat elite club. Nowadays (as back then) I'd prefer to be shooting by myself, and if I have a choice between shooting somewhere on my own or shooting somewhere with 100 of my best friends who I've never met, I'll go elsewhere. Sometimes that's not an option. If I've made the decision to shoot at Maroon Lake on a late-September morning, all other options have been taken off the table.
As one or two of you might know (I keep it a pretty well-guarded secret), I'm kind of a gregarious nutjob, so I do like to talk to people if I'm shooting nearby. I do NOT mind accommodating another photographer if there is limited space to shoot. Crossed tripod legs don't bother me all that much, especially if asked first. And I've been very lucky to have run across a few shooters who feel the same way (I'm lookin' at you, Bob Dent! Alta Lakes, last October!), or were at least so intimidated by my amazingly manly physical presence that they didn't say anything.
But here's the real deal: If you want to make my day, ask me for help. If you're not quite as well versed in this wonderful craft as I am, having been doing it for so long, I welcome the opportunity to teach. That's not to say I know it all. I never will. I just know more than most because I've been doing it so long. I might not be in a position to drop everything and come to your aid, but if I can get the shot and also help someone else do so, I'm all over that!
I'm actually amazed at how considerate and polite photographers have been in some rather tight places, such as Mesa Arch and the Subway. Of course, it just takes one to spoil the experience for everyone. Fortunately that has been very rare. In each case it was a "Pro", or workshop leader who felt they were "entitled". Upper Antelope Canyon seems to bring out the worst in people. I had enough after my one visit.
I like Jim's comment about, "a great time to practice your people skills". When someone opens a conversation with, "that camera must take great pictures", I try to end the conversation as quickly and politely as possible. Maybe I should give those people a second chance, and not be so elitist.
On the other hand, I was shooting in Upper Antelope Canyon once and while setting up a shot a guy told me he was leading a workshop and I would have to move so his clients could get a better shot. When approached like that I usually get quite rude and often very profane. In this case after a few expletives I told him I was there first and would be done when I was done. They all waited while I spent 20 minutes composing and exposing a shot that would normally take 3 or 4 minutes max. Yeah...I can be a jerk sometimes.
The times I've been shooting with others have been great. It's always good to share thoughts and techniques with friends....AFTER I'm done shooting. See ya'll at the Shindig
Ive been a studio photographer for many years and tolerated no foolishness in my camera room to distract me from work. I can see it would be the same for many landscape pros in the field who want full attention to work and perfer to work alone. Fortunatly, I do not make my living photographing landscape. It is enjoyment. It is pure pleasure and does not bring the burden of work with it.This give me a freedom I do not have in the studio. I am gregarious by nature and love to visit and interact with people.I like to teach and I like to learn. I have met some wonderfully interesting people in the field. I have met some tremendously talented photographers on this forum in person, like Guy Smickle and John Mumaw. John, his wife, three guys from Ukraine, and two Navajo guides all had a great time under the stars on Hunt's Mesa. Yes, language was a problem.. John complained about not understanding my Texan drawl. .
The only real problem with people I have encountered was when a party of thirty- five French tourists threated the beat the shit out me for wandering into their field of vision at Monument Valley. I wasnt really worried, though. It would take many more Frenchmen than that to beat the shit out of anybody.
Thanks to all of you on this forum who share your talent, knowledge, and fellowship. I do, indeed, find it a mature group who will give you honest, constructive feedback. I think most here want to produce work that will enrich the lives of their viewer. What we get back is equal enrichment from the creative process.
Joe Rogers
Funny story at Mesa Arch one sunrise... I had gone up the side to enjoy the view and a different perspective, but could easily see down to the main, through-the-arch location where JR was. There was a woman with her tripod following him around as he was composing the shot prior to sunrise. As the light started getting good and he started snapping away, she took her camera off the tripod, walked over to where he was, laid on the ground and started shooting through his legs at Mesa Arch. He almost stepped on her when he moved! Mind you, we were the only 3 photographers there that morning, so there was plenty of space!
See you on the 29th!
I know that I am sometimes perceived as elitest. I've been told so, after the fact, by people who are now my very good friends. But those who know me, know that's not who I am or what I'm about. It took me years, no decades, to realize it. I'm pretty sure its the initial impression I give off, and it comes from me being genuinely uncomfortable "breaking the ice." Apparently, I sometimes give people the feeling that I just don't want to interact with them. And its perceived as over-confidence when its actually self-doubt. But usually once that initial awkward hurdle is overcome, I'm generally regarded as friendly, helpful and sincere.
That perception often carries over in the field. I'm one of those that prefers to shoot alone, mostly because that's when I do my best work and gives me the most enjoyment. So I try to minimize my interaction with others. And when I do this, I give off the wrong impression. Even though I usually nod and smile or offer a short greeting, my under the covers uncomfortable-ness sometimes comes off as condescending and elitest, especially since encounters are brief and superficial. That's when I'm at my worst, and the truth couldn't be farther away. I really just want to (as many stated before) concentrate on the scene and light in front of me and go out for beers and camaraderie later.
When shooting the icons with large groups, I usually try to go about my own business. I try not to get into equipment comparisons and the like, though I'm happy to explain to people what gear I'm using (LF and tilt-shift lenses have generated many inquiries over the years). Photography is gear-driven, location bagging, testosterone competition for some, but I have no interest in that. I'm more apt to discuss light and conditions with people because that's more related to the beauty and 'experience' of being in the field. For me, THAT'S what its all about.
That was an memorable evening. Everyone was able to take nice photos and enjoy time talking with other photographers.
Todd's comments about helping others sum up pretty well how I feel myself. I've had experiences where people were asking me lots of questions. I try to answer them as best I can. I know what it's like to have that shoe on the other foot, and I've been grateful to the photographers who've helped me. Plus, getting irritated or having a poor exchange with someone isn't likely to put me in the most creative of places.
As far as perception goes, if I'm around another photographer who is keeping to themself, I don't think anything about it. They're working. And if for some reason I'm keeping to myself, and someone thinks badly of me for it, then that's on them for assuming the worst about me.
I also usually prefer to photograph on my own and am often in my personal focused world when I'm out shooting unless someone approaches me. When they do I'm usually very open to having a conversation and I find most people are cordial. Most seem interested in where you've been shooting, current conditions, etc. You can get some good information this way especially on those seasonal voyages for photographing fall foliage or summer flowers or in places you aren't familiar with. Occasionally there are a few gearheads but I don't mind talking about tech stuff either as long as they don't take concentration away from getting a shot if the conditions are lining up nicely.
In my experiences at places like Mesa Arch or Maroon Bells so far I've had good luck and photographers have been accommodating to each other. Compared to experiences I’ve had photographing the fields/floors of sporting events or at breaking news situations these locations were tame.
Last fall while photographing from a roadside on Wilson Mesa I had an industrious landowner who was offering some rental deals on his house come up to strike a conversation with me and several other photographers. He had been even offering photographers coffee. He was an interesting guy and even though I could have taken a few more images then, the conversation was much more enjoyable. I much prefer his type of attitude about the “leaf-peeper paparazzi” (as some people in that neighborhood apparently call us) than those who stretch barbed wire and “Keep Out” signs along the roadside.
Quite frequently people I've met have been fellow forum members. Some of the most pleasant, memorable experiences I've had in the field have been when I've come across people like Todd after we were both waiting for a storm to clear at Molas Lake, Scott, Brent D., Ben & Jimmy in the Snowy Range, everyone who was on that Mayflower snowshoe trip a couple of years ago, Doug & John in the San Juans last fall. The list goes on. Looking forward to seeing you guys at the Shindig!
Anne's story gets first prize. Its a wonder that JR's friend did not set up her tripod while she was shooting through his legs.
Bill Brennan
So, I'm really glad people piped in about this topic. I will tell you now that I do not think this way anymore, and actually never really did, but there were a few select times that I can recall that I totally zoned, and probably looked like a frickin idiot at the same time. But, what I have learned is that 99% of folks in the field are very friendly, helpful, cheerful, you name it. But it's that 1% bad element out there that thinks they are god's gift, and to this day I still wonder how these folks get through life.
So CAZ and I have had some great conversations about the wonderful world of nature photography and I shared an experience with him that I had in Utah, back in 2002 or 2003, that was unusual enough for merit. It happened at the 'trailhead' to the 3 Room Ruin (or Fallen Roof Ruin), and it was a situation where me and my buddy had just arrived around 10am to go down into Road Canyon. As we were putting our packs on, two white club vans pulled into the turnoff. We didn't really think anything of it, just another workshop, and we would be on our way down the wash way ahead of the group. As we heading down the trail, we were summoned by somebody, and were asked if we could return to the area later in the day, because there were 15 people going down to the ruin to get schooled by Mr. Sexton himself.
OK, so here was a really unusual request. Two gapers (me and my buddy), against 15 paying customers - competing for the same special remote location. Now, I like to avoid confrontation, and so does my friend, so we obliged, got back in our truck, and hit the road (and actually found some better ruins to explore!). In hindsight, we were there first, so presumably we were entitled to visit the ruin first. But I guess I was so wrapped in the idea that these people had spent good money, that I was interfering with their limited time and light, so I decided to put them ahead of me.
So I never made it back to 3 Room, but was there the year before. It's pretty magical, so if you get a chance go see it before it gets destroyed by 15 workshop attendees at a time
Probably the only elitist situation that I recall sitting in my craw was from a dry fly snob while fly fishing McDonald Pond in Montana 25 years ago.
I enjoy shooting with others and alone, but probably mostly alone. Like Josh, I get into my own personal zone. I don't mind being around other photogs at a location but I'll usually keep to myself and look for perspectives where I can deconflict myself from others. At the same time, I keep an eye out for NPNrs, and always wonder if someone I'm shooting next to is on RMNP, but I seldom ask - to my regret. When a conversation does come up, or if someone asks about my equipment or for help, I almost always enjoy the exchange, and like Todd, I enjoy teaching, although I don't know if I have much to teach.
I've had mixed experiences with workshops as most others have. One visit to Mesa Arch, I was sleeping in the parking lot when I noticed headlights coming down the hill. I beat feet to get up to the arch and stake my claim. I've never had a workshop leader ask me to move or anything, but I've been put off by the throng invading my space or forcing me to change my shoot plans because now my view is populated with bodies rather than flowers or something.
Overall, I enjoy running into friends, old and new, in the field, especially if it involves a cold beer or conversation over dinner. At the same time, I relish the solitude and soul recharge I get when I'm in the field alone.
And I'm really looking forward to the shindig! Guess I ought to get something printed.
In terms of my field presence, I always try to be quiet, light on the land, and unobtrusive, especially if others are present. While I have not had any really negative encounters with other photographers like some of those described here, I do find nature photographers to be an especially opinionated and somewhat judgmental group, especially on the anonymous internet and in public group settings. I make my living through consulting and am paid well for my opinion. If I go to a professional event like a luncheon, I would never start giving a bunch of unsolicited advice to my table mates and neither would any of my colleagues. If I encounter a group of photographers at a place like Oxbow Bend, the opinions and judgments about other photographers, their techniques, their gear, their approach to a scene, and other photographers not present seem to fly freely and loudly. In the last two years, I have only been in two places with more than two or three other photographers present – Oxbow Bend and Tunnel View in Yosemite – and both of these experiences were characterized by loud, verbal “pissing contests” between some of the other photographers present. One workshop leader in Grand Teton was loudly shouting instructions for what seemed like the opportunity to let everyone else know that he was, in fact, leading a workshop and was therefore superior to everyone else there that morning.
Standing in a setting like this is not the reason I am interested in nature photography and I generally try to avoid these places because it is an unpleasant experience for me. I prefer to be by myself, even if I arrived at a place with a friend, so hanging out with massive groups of loud strangers at iconic viewpoints isn’t high on my to-do list. I would like to develop more friendships with serious photographers, as I do enjoy the camaraderie and conversation that comes with spending time with small groups of other photographers, in the field or afterward.