Posted by Mat Malone on January 14, 2011 at 11:56 PM
After seeing Adam Gibbs's jaw dropping EP, I couldn't help but think about why it seems that California winter photography seems to be lacking a certain type of imagery that other areas have. Specifically the Pacific northwest and the coastal range of British Columbia. I'm not exactly sure what to call this type of image -- snowy, evergreen forests on mountains is probably the best way I can describe it. More examples:
I just don't see this type of scene in California, and I can't figure out why. There is great winter photography in YV and other places, but with a very different feel. Is the reason you don't see this type of scene accessibility? Different topology? Greater avalanche danger? Are CA landscape photographers just a bunch of sissies who don't like being more than 50 feet away from their car in winter?
Posted by Frank Damon on January 15, 2011 at 2:25 AM
Mat: This is an excellent topic and I will be thinking about it for the next several days. But my initial thoughts, which I might change after really thinking about it, may be a combination of you said. I think some of it is accessibility as it is a great distance to the Sierra Nevada and YV from our population centers (So Cal and Bay Area) and sometimes not easy to get to. I suspect it may be easier to find great scenery closer to where people live in the PNW and BC. Clearly the geography and topography of California is unique with more of everything -- mountains, desert, ocean, great cities, etc. And hence I think more diverse photographic possibilities and challenges. There are many terrific California photographers, past and present, starting with Ansel Adams from whom many of us continually learn.
Maybe many of the California greats and budding photographers today just don't belong to NPN or don't post much. This board doesn't seem to be very active compared to the PNW and Rocky Mountain boards. But I am new and may be totally off. Maybe californians like to go to Utah and Arizona and photograph slot canyons rather than the high Sierra. I don't know.
Your sissy-car comment does have a ring of truth, at least to me. I was in Mammoth Lakes over the holidays and took some terrific sunset shots on two nights with great sunsets. The problem for me was that it was 23 degrees outside and while I had chains, most of the good roads were inaccessible. Also, even with good gloves on, I could only last a few minutes outside clicking away until my fingers started to become numb. So my heated car a few feet away really was a welcome sight for me. But this is me and maybe others have warmer fingers and hence greater staying power in the freezing air.
Anyway, I am giving rambling thoughts and will think more about this issue. In the meantime, you have inspired me to go find my best California shots and make my first post here since I am new to the forum, which I will do this weekend.
Are CA landscape photographers just a bunch of sissies who don't like being more than 50 feet away from their car in winter?
Mat, to a certain degree this is slightly true, with a few caveats I feel. For the most part California is a "sunshine state", with that said many photogs do not invest heavily in snow related gear. This can range from clothing, sleeping gear, and right down to vehicles setup to deal with the rugged weather. Additionally, the overall mind set and ability to maneuver a vehicle in snow and ice is a challenge for folks who live many months a year in it, for those that don't it's almost a suicide mission.
This does not mean a person cannot move toward adapting and adjusting to this ability to dealing with the elements. Living in So Cal my entire life I only knew warm weather living. However, my 2 years living in the outer most points in Alaska changed all that, as well as my wanting ability to be able to deal with the elements. Basically stated, it was adapt or never leave the indoors. The ability to deal with the outdoor harshness came easier with the means to do it. We had EVERYTHING arctic proof so to speak. I had outer wear that would easily take -40 degrees and I used it many times at that level. All vehicles were either Dodge 6x Power Wagons, Arctic Snow cats, or Snowmobiles.
Saying all this is only in response to the quote I've listed, a lot of the folks working in those snow environments grew up in them and know how to deal with the weather conditions. This should not stop anyone from getting out and trying to work the conditions as many Californians do, it just requires a bit more preparation and thinking cold weather before venturing more then 50 feet from the vehicle...
Yes, those places do exist in CA, but one must know where, and be prepared and able to access the locations. Even in Yosemite, you can get scenes like that at the right times. If you're a photog in snowy areas and you are not at least using snowshoes, you are at a disadvantage. In relatively easy access places like Sequoia NP there are networks of cross country ski trails that I've snowshoed into wonderful isolation. Same for Lake Tahoe, etc. As with any day of landscape image-making, conditions are always variable, and chance favors the prepared.
For one thing those guys are pros! Or at least they seem to have the opportunity to commit the time needed to capture images like that. I have never seen a situation like Floris' shot in the sierra. Not that it doesn't exist, but it might take more than a dayor weekend to access a scene like that for many. I would love to do a back/high country backpack trip to attempt captures like those, but I have to do it in good weather first! It is 2.5-3 hours or more to any trailhead that might provide a scene like those for me.
Matt,
Interesting topic, and one I've been thinking about, as I am planning several late winter/early spring ventures into the Sierra. I'm certain the Sierras offer very compelling winter/snow scenes, particularly on the east side, where many of the high altitude canyons are located. Access is an issue however. Getting to these locations isn't necessarily easy and typically involves skiing or snowshoe travel. I also believe you are correct to some extent that snow conditions in the Sierra are different than in BC, Utah or Colorado, which can get lots of dry powder snow, while we often get a wet snow, and warmer conditions. That can make a difference in terms of how long the snow stays on the trees after it snows.
I'm sure there are many CANP members who do venture into the mountains in winter and have compelling images! Best Regards,
>> Are CA landscape photographers just a bunch of sissies who
>> don't like being more than 50 feet away from their car in winter?
I think California landscape photographers are more creative and don't make the same kind of pictures over and over again. Check out NPN/CANP member, Michael Gordon's Mountains of Color portfolio. He has some really awesome winter landscapes in there. Personally, I like them more than the examples you have provided (although those are mighty fine images too).
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 16, 2011 at 8:05 PM
Hey Mat,
I would agree with others about simply the diversity of what is available in CA. What's available in the PNW? The Cascades, the Palouse, The CRG and the Ocean. You can get three out of the four venues just in Redwood NP for starters.
Now....
Are CA landscape photographers just a bunch of sissies who don't like being more than 50 feet away from their car in winter?
Since this is a friendly forum and I expect this is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I'll try not to take this too personal. But generally speaking because more than just you have made that comment. I'll pose the question. What makes trekking 40 miles in snowshoes over mountain peaks in the dead of winter at -20deg any more important photographically than capturing an image 50 ft from your car? Who says an image is any better or more valuable because someone almost died to capture it? Hell, you don't know how many times I've almost been hit by a YARTS bus on Southside drive!!
Mat, one can find the type of snow conditions you are referring to in the Trinity Alps or at Shasta. I've been on Shasta twice in mid-winter for attempts to climb the thing. The weather was worse than anything I encountered on Yerupaja in Peru; at half the altitude! I have also gone into the Sabrina Basin in mid-winter, after a failed attempt to climb the Mendel Couloir.
Access to both places required time. So, I think Chris' comment about opportunity plays a big role. Being in a position to head out on a moment's notice for an extended time in order to hit perfect winter conditions is a luxury for many Californian's, whether they be pro or amateur.
"Are CA landscape photographers just a bunch of sissies who don't like being more than 50 feet away from their car in winter?"
Honestly, if I can find a great shot fifty feet from my rig, I'll do it. At this time in my life, though, I don't have a compelling need to hump 50-60 lbs of stuff for miles, in brutal winter conditions, to make a photograph. I am a firm believer in 'risk vs. benefit'.
I would also ask Lon's question: Is a photograph more important, or better, because of the conditions under which it was made? In my opinion, the answer is 'no'. The photograph must stand, or fall, on its own merits.
Before the Whoa Nellie Deli came to be, Nicely's was the only place in Lee Vining to get a decent meal for a reasonable price. I still go there because it's affordable. Nicely's has good pancakes and great pie!
--P
Posted by Mat Malone on January 17, 2011 at 12:35 PM
Lon, the "sissies" comment was tongue-in-cheek, so don't take it personally of course
Preston, I knew you'd have some experience with this topic! Shasta was something I thought about, but IIRC the approach is pretty long so it doesn't really win a cost/benefit analysis.
Basically my hunch was that it was mostly a question of accessibility. In the PNW more roads are plowed in winter that will turn what I'm looking for into a day-hike or less. Hell, I think in Rainier you can find these types of scenes 50 feet from a plowed road.
When we attempted Shasta, we went in from the west (the town of Mt. Shasta). On the way to the Shasta ski area is a trail head that leads to the Sierra Club cabin at Horse Camp. It's only a couple of miles on fairly easy terrain. Horse Camp is right at timberline. Things don't get steep unitl you begin the climb up to Lake Helen, below the Red Banks.
The downside is that it's a long drive from our region of CA.
Basically my hunch was that it was mostly a question of accessibility. In the PNW more roads are plowed in winter that will turn what I'm looking for into a day-hike or less. Hell, I think in Rainier you can find these types of scenes 50 feet from a plowed road.
Mat, this was kind of my main point all around. The gear to deal with the elements is a BIG plus. And as you stated that to a certain extent it is dealt with moreover in the areas that are subjected to the annual snow fall events. Additionally with the folks who have adapted to understanding on how to deal with it too.
This was a good subject and responding points made. Now let us discuss another extreme, photographing more then 50 feet from the vehicle in DVNP in late July at high noon.......
Posted by Mat Malone on January 17, 2011 at 5:17 PM
Preston, found it on the topo. That doesn't look bad at all -- could have the conditions I'm looking for. Thanks for the tip!
The Sierra is much harder to access than places in the PNW, and also has much higher avalanche danger. The entire Sierra (the largest and highest continuous range in the lower 48, btw), is under the jurisdiction of a SINGLE person for assessing avalanche danger, so reports aren't exactly fantastic or locally relevant either. To get the kind of images you referenced (one of them being mine, thanks!) are only possible at the tops of mountains, where the trees get covered in thick layers of rime ice. In order to get to the top of a snowy mountain in California you have to go through a lot more avalanche terrain as the slopes are typically steeper. Many of the mountain peaks in the PNW are volcanic, and as such have nice smooth and relatively shallow angle slopes that you can use for the approach.
Another, perhaps even more relevant, reason that you don't see those kinds of frosty trees from California is that well, we don't have those perfect christmas trees at the tops of our peaks. If you go into the high sierra where you would get the kinds of conditions that produce enough rime ice the trees are all beat up and stunted. The trees at the tops of the peaks in the PNW are often just perfectly formed... I've never seen anything like them in California. So, in short, if you're looking for a scene like any of the ones you linked in your original post, I think you're best off making a trip to the PNW.
As far as snowy tree scapes in California, Sequoia/Kings Canyon NP is definitely worth a visit in the winter. It's accessible, and you don't have to worry about avvy dangers. Of course, to get to the nicest groves right after a fresh snow storm isn't easy either... you have to be there before the snow starts falling or else you won't get in. For example, to get the above shot I had to plan my trip to be in place the before a big storm, before any snow had fallen.. after that day the area was inaccessible without a 12 mile round trip ski tour (for me it was only 4 miles of snow shoeing round trip).
One place you might try is Telescope Peak. You don't have to go through any serious avvy land to get there, though in the winter it is 11 miles and 4,000 feet gain of snowshoeing to get to the top. Telescope Peak.
I agree with Floris with regard to avalanche danger in the Sierra. While powder slides are common at the highest elevations, the avalanches at lower altitudes are either slab or wet snow; both are very dangerous.
It's too bad that you can't eaily get to the east end of Tenaya Lake in Yosemite. There is a gorgeous mountain hemlock forest there that would look very nice indeed in winter. Also unfortunate is that the area around Olmstead Point is very prone to big slides.
Jeffrey, with response to your follow up comment; I stand corrected on my statement and can truly bend with the crowd on that one......
Posted by Steve Sieren on January 19, 2011 at 7:37 PM
I will take that remark personally and say "Looks who talking Mat! What's stopping you from getting some snow shots?? Oh, wait you were whining about a little bit of water spray in last ESS post!" so there!
Don't make us pull some California snow shots out of our ass!
I am one who is frequently in the Sierra and fails to capture that excellent snow shot. Often the lack of good light provides a significant obstacle. I travel to Truckee a lot and we go back in forth between many "bluebird" days followed by an occasional blizzard and not enough in between. This is probably just whining from a poor photographer (certainly not in Adam Gibbs' league) but the common blue sky day does not promote great photographs.
I wish that I could visit the Lee Vining area in the winter more often (for the scenery, not for Nicely's food). But that is a long drive from my primary residence in the winter.
Posted by Mat Malone on January 19, 2011 at 8:11 PM
Even worse, Nicely's is closed in the winter!
Steve, it's not an issue of CA winter photography being bad -- CA has great winter photography. I have a couple of winter shots myself that I'm proud of. And there's several of yours that are stunning as well. But there's a particular type of shot, with "perfect christmas trees" as Floris put it, that I don't see from the here -- at least not the Sierras -- that I would love to get.
Posted by Steve Sieren on January 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM
Ok, seriously I know much of the time it snows out here the snow doesn't stick to the trees because it doesn't get as cold as often and it melts faster unless you get really high up there. The Sierra has so much more slope then most of these other mountains you in the PCNW. Even the San Gabriels smoggie mountains out here in Los Angeles have steeper slopes then what's in most of the PCNW with less access.
To get to our high peaks where the trees do freeze like that, it's more dangerous (as mentioned above). You can time it and catch these frozen trees in one of the passes that sort of stay open because of the ski resorts are close by. Or just try 395 when it gets cold enough. You should of went to Mammoth and hiked into the back country when they had their 12-15 feet of snow. Too late now. Anyway, I'm sure you can get creative with using the ski lift to your advantage to catch the pink, red, and blue light you're looking for.
It took me a while just to buy all of that expensive gear for the snow and I'm not much of winter shooter since I'm too close to the warm desert that blooms before winter ends.
Mike Schlansker - just want to point out that images like Adam's, the one Matt linked of mine, and many others like them are all taken on bluebird sky days (at least close to it, in fact, Adam was lamenting that it wasn't quite clear enough for the shot he wanted!). I love clear blue skies... that combined with fresh snow is one of the best conditions you can ask for IMO.
Right, Floris. I hate blue skies usually, but sometimes snow fills the images need for what clouds often do, not to mention the wonderful soft scattered light going in all directions on your intimate closeup in the shade.
Posted by Richard Wong on January 28, 2011 at 3:49 AM
I don't mean to take away from those other guys, but from what I understand those shots are from significantly lower elevations and they are nowhere near as steep as Steve notes. Mt. Baldy for example which I can see from my house windows, is 10,000 feet of vertical relief and has rapidly melting snow. I'm not a mountaineer but it really doesn't seem like a safe mountain snowshoe hike to the summit.
Now if all the PNWNP guys are shooting from the summit of Mt. Rainier, Hood and Shasta during the winter then you can call all of us sissies.
Now if all the PNWNP guys are shooting from the summit of Mt. Rainier, Hood and Shasta during the winter then you can call all of us sissies.
I totally agree, Richard. This to me gets right back to my original point of being able to deal with the elements with the overall right gear.
Needless to say year after year folks are rescued or recovered from the very same PNW locations you listed. Sadly, many of those do not survive in those higher elevations either. California folks sissies or not need to be prepared for the extreme weather conditions and no image is worth a loss of life over.
Discussion
30 replieshttp://www.artinnaturephotography.com/photo.php?id=226&gallery=mountainstockpile
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I just don't see this type of scene in California, and I can't figure out why. There is great winter photography in YV and other places, but with a very different feel. Is the reason you don't see this type of scene accessibility? Different topology? Greater avalanche danger? Are CA landscape photographers just a bunch of sissies who don't like being more than 50 feet away from their car in winter?
Maybe many of the California greats and budding photographers today just don't belong to NPN or don't post much. This board doesn't seem to be very active compared to the PNW and Rocky Mountain boards. But I am new and may be totally off. Maybe californians like to go to Utah and Arizona and photograph slot canyons rather than the high Sierra. I don't know.
Your sissy-car comment does have a ring of truth, at least to me. I was in Mammoth Lakes over the holidays and took some terrific sunset shots on two nights with great sunsets. The problem for me was that it was 23 degrees outside and while I had chains, most of the good roads were inaccessible. Also, even with good gloves on, I could only last a few minutes outside clicking away until my fingers started to become numb. So my heated car a few feet away really was a welcome sight for me. But this is me and maybe others have warmer fingers and hence greater staying power in the freezing air.
Anyway, I am giving rambling thoughts and will think more about this issue. In the meantime, you have inspired me to go find my best California shots and make my first post here since I am new to the forum, which I will do this weekend.
Frank
Mat, to a certain degree this is slightly true, with a few caveats I feel. For the most part California is a "sunshine state", with that said many photogs do not invest heavily in snow related gear. This can range from clothing, sleeping gear, and right down to vehicles setup to deal with the rugged weather. Additionally, the overall mind set and ability to maneuver a vehicle in snow and ice is a challenge for folks who live many months a year in it, for those that don't it's almost a suicide mission.
This does not mean a person cannot move toward adapting and adjusting to this ability to dealing with the elements. Living in So Cal my entire life I only knew warm weather living. However, my 2 years living in the outer most points in Alaska changed all that, as well as my wanting ability to be able to deal with the elements. Basically stated, it was adapt or never leave the indoors. The ability to deal with the outdoor harshness came easier with the means to do it. We had EVERYTHING arctic proof so to speak. I had outer wear that would easily take -40 degrees and I used it many times at that level. All vehicles were either Dodge 6x Power Wagons, Arctic Snow cats, or Snowmobiles.
Saying all this is only in response to the quote I've listed, a lot of the folks working in those snow environments grew up in them and know how to deal with the weather conditions. This should not stop anyone from getting out and trying to work the conditions as many Californians do, it just requires a bit more preparation and thinking cold weather before venturing more then 50 feet from the vehicle...
For one thing those guys are pros! Or at least they seem to have the opportunity to commit the time needed to capture images like that. I have never seen a situation like Floris' shot in the sierra. Not that it doesn't exist, but it might take more than a dayor weekend to access a scene like that for many. I would love to do a back/high country backpack trip to attempt captures like those, but I have to do it in good weather first!
Chris
Interesting topic, and one I've been thinking about, as I am planning several late winter/early spring ventures into the Sierra. I'm certain the Sierras offer very compelling winter/snow scenes, particularly on the east side, where many of the high altitude canyons are located. Access is an issue however. Getting to these locations isn't necessarily easy and typically involves skiing or snowshoe travel. I also believe you are correct to some extent that snow conditions in the Sierra are different than in BC, Utah or Colorado, which can get lots of dry powder snow, while we often get a wet snow, and warmer conditions. That can make a difference in terms of how long the snow stays on the trees after it snows.
I'm sure there are many CANP members who do venture into the mountains in winter and have compelling images! Best Regards,
>> Are CA landscape photographers just a bunch of sissies who
>> don't like being more than 50 feet away from their car in winter?
I think California landscape photographers are more creative and don't make the same kind of pictures over and over again.
I would agree with others about simply the diversity of what is available in CA. What's available in the PNW? The Cascades, the Palouse, The CRG and the Ocean. You can get three out of the four venues just in Redwood NP for starters.
Now....
Since this is a friendly forum and I expect this is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I'll try not to take this too personal. But generally speaking because more than just you have made that comment. I'll pose the question. What makes trekking 40 miles in snowshoes over mountain peaks in the dead of winter at -20deg any more important photographically than capturing an image 50 ft from your car? Who says an image is any better or more valuable because someone almost died to capture it? Hell, you don't know how many times I've almost been hit by a YARTS bus on Southside drive!!
Lon
And, heck the constant diet of Nicely's can sure take it's toll also.....
Access to both places required time. So, I think Chris' comment about opportunity plays a big role. Being in a position to head out on a moment's notice for an extended time in order to hit perfect winter conditions is a luxury for many Californian's, whether they be pro or amateur.
"Are CA landscape photographers just a bunch of sissies who don't like being more than 50 feet away from their car in winter?"
Honestly, if I can find a great shot fifty feet from my rig, I'll do it. At this time in my life, though, I don't have a compelling need to hump 50-60 lbs of stuff for miles, in brutal winter conditions, to make a photograph. I am a firm believer in 'risk vs. benefit'.
I would also ask Lon's question: Is a photograph more important, or better, because of the conditions under which it was made? In my opinion, the answer is 'no'. The photograph must stand, or fall, on its own merits.
Before the Whoa Nellie Deli came to be, Nicely's was the only place in Lee Vining to get a decent meal for a reasonable price. I still go there because it's affordable. Nicely's has good pancakes and great pie!
--P
Preston, I knew you'd have some experience with this topic! Shasta was something I thought about, but IIRC the approach is pretty long so it doesn't really win a cost/benefit analysis.
Basically my hunch was that it was mostly a question of accessibility. In the PNW more roads are plowed in winter that will turn what I'm looking for into a day-hike or less. Hell, I think in Rainier you can find these types of scenes 50 feet from a plowed road.
When we attempted Shasta, we went in from the west (the town of Mt. Shasta). On the way to the Shasta ski area is a trail head that leads to the Sierra Club cabin at Horse Camp. It's only a couple of miles on fairly easy terrain. Horse Camp is right at timberline. Things don't get steep unitl you begin the climb up to Lake Helen, below the Red Banks.
The downside is that it's a long drive from our region of CA.
--P
Mat, this was kind of my main point all around. The gear to deal with the elements is a BIG plus. And as you stated that to a certain extent it is dealt with moreover in the areas that are subjected to the annual snow fall events. Additionally with the folks who have adapted to understanding on how to deal with it too.
This was a good subject and responding points made. Now let us discuss another extreme, photographing more then 50 feet from the vehicle in DVNP in late July at high noon.......
Another, perhaps even more relevant, reason that you don't see those kinds of frosty trees from California is that well, we don't have those perfect christmas trees at the tops of our peaks. If you go into the high sierra where you would get the kinds of conditions that produce enough rime ice the trees are all beat up and stunted. The trees at the tops of the peaks in the PNW are often just perfectly formed... I've never seen anything like them in California. So, in short, if you're looking for a scene like any of the ones you linked in your original post, I think you're best off making a trip to the PNW.
As far as snowy tree scapes in California, Sequoia/Kings Canyon NP is definitely worth a visit in the winter. It's accessible, and you don't have to worry about avvy dangers. Of course, to get to the nicest groves right after a fresh snow storm isn't easy either... you have to be there before the snow starts falling or else you won't get in. For example, to get the above shot I had to plan my trip to be in place the before a big storm, before any snow had fallen.. after that day the area was inaccessible without a 12 mile round trip ski tour (for me it was only 4 miles of snow shoeing round trip).
One place you might try is Telescope Peak. You don't have to go through any serious avvy land to get there, though in the winter it is 11 miles and 4,000 feet gain of snowshoeing to get to the top. Telescope Peak.
It's too bad that you can't eaily get to the east end of Tenaya Lake in Yosemite. There is a gorgeous mountain hemlock forest there that would look very nice indeed in winter. Also unfortunate is that the area around Olmstead Point is very prone to big slides.
--P
Don't you mean 50 feet from a beer?!
Don't make us pull some California snow shots out of our ass!
I wish that I could visit the Lee Vining area in the winter more often (for the scenery, not for Nicely's food). But that is a long drive from my primary residence in the winter.
Steve, it's not an issue of CA winter photography being bad -- CA has great winter photography. I have a couple of winter shots myself that I'm proud of. And there's several of yours that are stunning as well. But there's a particular type of shot, with "perfect christmas trees" as Floris put it, that I don't see from the here -- at least not the Sierras -- that I would love to get.
To get to our high peaks where the trees do freeze like that, it's more dangerous (as mentioned above). You can time it and catch these frozen trees in one of the passes that sort of stay open because of the ski resorts are close by. Or just try 395 when it gets cold enough. You should of went to Mammoth and hiked into the back country when they had their 12-15 feet of snow. Too late now. Anyway, I'm sure you can get creative with using the ski lift to your advantage to catch the pink, red, and blue light you're looking for.
It took me a while just to buy all of that expensive gear for the snow and I'm not much of winter shooter since I'm too close to the warm desert that blooms before winter ends.
Now if all the PNWNP guys are shooting from the summit of Mt. Rainier, Hood and Shasta during the winter then you can call all of us sissies.
I totally agree, Richard. This to me gets right back to my original point of being able to deal with the elements with the overall right gear.
Needless to say year after year folks are rescued or recovered from the very same PNW locations you listed. Sadly, many of those do not survive in those higher elevations either. California folks sissies or not need to be prepared for the extreme weather conditions and no image is worth a loss of life over.