Posted by Dan Moore on February 2, 2011 at 5:00 PM
I was told that my last post in Avian that my BG was splochy and that the file sizes were very small -although my computer indicated that they were very close to the max. The thought was that there was too much compression and that might be the problem. I have used Paintshop Pro and still do while I wade into Photoshop.Over the last few months I have processed in Paintshop and sized in Photoshop with no nits of this type. ---I went back to the original NPN suggested ritual for Photoshop and after a few hours of trying to do it that way I was not happy with the results.
I then went to an image that I think is pretty good -for me- and just sharpened the bird. The resizing using Save for web still left some splotchyness in the BG. Back again I went and used some noise reduction in the bg and resized again -worse. ANY THOUGHTS?
I might add that I am very digitally challenged.
Posted is the bird that I mentioned.Using save for web.
Dan
Posted by Richard Ditch on February 2, 2011 at 5:22 PM
It would help us if you gave us your complete work flow:
1. original raw or jpg?
2. if jpg what settings do you have set in camera?
3. if raw what raw converter do you use?
4. when you edit the image (in PSP) what file type are you working on?
5. do you do repeated Saves of a file when it is in jpg form?
6. how much adjustment does a typical image need for exposure?
7. do you work in 8 bit or 16 bit?
Do not confuse Resizing (e.g. going from 2000 px x 3000 px to 1000 px x 1500 px) with jpeg compression (the quality slider you get when first saving an image as jpg. Be sure to make these separate steps in your work flow.
Where in your work flow do you apply required sharpening and how do you do it?
Posted by Mia McPherson on February 2, 2011 at 5:25 PM
Dan,
Using my Safari browser this image is only 15.0 KB on the NPN server. Saved at jpeg, maximum, the file size for your 720 pixel image is 53.58kb in part it is that small because of the plain blue background which has little detail to add to the file size.
Make sure when you save for web that it is set to jpeg, maximum and that the quality slider is at 100%. With other images you can use the slider and look under the photo for the file size to go just below 300 for the 720 pixel version. This image won't be near 300 kb though as I mentioned because of the featureless blue background.
Posted by Harold Ankney on February 2, 2011 at 6:58 PM
Dan
I use PaintShop Pro so maybe I can answer your questions. I'm with Richard on needing some answers first on your work flow. It will give us a good starting point on solving this mystery.
Harold
Posted by Paul DeCesare on February 2, 2011 at 11:00 PM
Dan, the Save For Web defaults to GIF when you first use it as far as I can remember. If it is, that'd give you some splotchies for sure. Make sure you have it set to JPEG and that you have checked the box that says "convert to sRGB". And make sure your Quality slider is somewhere above 80, no less than 75. I don't like using less than 100%, but if you need to get that image under the 200KB NPN limit, you most likely need to reduce Quality.
Posted by Dan Moore on February 3, 2011 at 8:29 AM
First of all thank you all for you help!
I do have answers to most of the questions asked but will wait for now to see if this may be the biggest part of the problem.
I reviewed my camera settings and found that the color setting was RBG.(new camera) I reset it to SRBG.
When I go to do my work in Photoshop to make ready for NPN this is what happens:
Image>Mode> Check mark on RGB --will not uncheck
8 bits/channel
color table are greyed out
Convert color profile> Convert to SRGB is greyed out
When I proceed with my resizing the info on the top of the image still shows RBG 8 bit.
I also find the slider to finalize the size to be difficult. Often when I try to get near the 200K my options are say 135K or a quick jump to over 200K. Even then the resized image is often 20K less than indicated.
I know I am wandering and if the input here does not do it I will go back and answer the questions individually.
sRGB has a smaller color gamut than RGB. It's best to shoot in the widest possible gamut (say Adobe RGB) in 16-bit.
"Image>Mode will not uncheck" The only way to uncheck it is to choose another profile from the list. Your current setting is as it should be.
"8 bits/channel". This is the only choice for sRGB. If you shoot in RGB at 16-bit, your bits/channel will show 16-bit.
"Convert to Profile is greyed out". Since your current file is already sRGB, this is the way it should be.
"When I proceed with my resizing the info on the top of the image still shows RBG 8 bit."
Resizing an image has no effect on the color space or bit depth.
The slider for JPEG image quality can be tricky. Ninety-nine percent of the time, I simply type in a quality number, say "85" and then click the image. If the file size is still too big, I'll adjust downward. Also, in the Save for Web and Devices dialog, on the right side and just above the quality settings area, is a small arrow. Click the arrow, a menu will appear. One of the selections is "Optimize to file size". Type in the file size you want and then ckick OK. You'll notice that the quality setting will change automatically, and the file size will quite close to what you set.
Another note: If you shoot in 16 bit, create a duplicate file and convert the bit depth of the duplicate to 8-bit. Next, choose Edit>Convert to Profile and select sRGB. Save the file under a new name. Now you can resize it, sharpen as needed and then save for the web. In the Save for Web and Device dialog, place a check mark in the 'ICC Profile' check box. This will embed the sRGB in the image.
I hope this helps. If you need clarification, please holler.
--P
Posted by Scott Fricke on February 3, 2011 at 3:13 PM
Dan, in your last post you noted a 200K file size, the allowable size for this site is 300k on a 720 pixel image and 500K for a 1200 pixel image.
Posted by Dan Moore on February 3, 2011 at 7:32 PM
Mia and Scott thank you for the info 300k. In the directions for how to prep for the NPN Forums it says 200k and I have always used that figure.
I processed another image with basic processing to keep it simple.Save for Web was also used - I was getting info on both methods and decided to use this for simplicity.First the answers to your questions.
1/ jpeg
2/ raw and jpeg fine
3/na
4/jpeg
5/saved twice
6/No adj at all on this. Generally I make much more -not as good as you folks at reading the situation.
7/8bit
8/ last -but not as late as you would prefer
Process used on image posted on this post (Hawk)No crop.
1/ mask BG
2/sharpen bird --one time at R-2,S-90,C-0
3/ save copy
4/import copy into PS
5/Save for web -optimise to file size set at 300
Came up with Quality-19 and file size 270
The Bg is blotchy especially in the upper portion. --Please check that post is at 270K -that is what is shows on my computer.
Thanks again for your input and PATIENCE.
Dan
Posted by Mia McPherson on February 3, 2011 at 8:12 PM
Dan,
The image you posted of the hawk is 720 pixels wide by 1080 pixels in height, when I use the Safari browser and check "activity", locate the file, I can see the file size on the NPN server is only 63.8 kb. I've attached a screen shot with your file as numbered by the NPN program so you can see the file number above the image, then placed the activity window over the hawk and underlined the link to the image in red.
Again there is a lot of featureless blue in the file, when there is a lot of featureless background the file sizes are smaller than they would be if there were lots of leaves or other items in the background.
I'm unable to explain why it is 270 kb on your computer and only 63.8 kb on the NPN server
I think I know why the file size in a browser is different from the file size on Dan's machine: The browser is stripping any metadata and alpha channels, i.e. masks or selection channels). I'm making a SWAG on what I think is the cause of the size difference, so, if I'm wrong, please correct me.
Dan, your hawk image is showing the same size in IE8 as Mia shows in her screen shot.
--P
Posted by Dan Moore on February 3, 2011 at 11:09 PM
Mia, I have Elements 8
Preston, Any suggestions as to what I can do to remedy this?
Dan
Posted by Dan Moore on February 3, 2011 at 11:13 PM
Mia, I have Elements 8
Preston, Any suggestions as to what I can do to remedy this?
Preston, Any suggestions as to what I can do to remedy this?
Dan, try the following:
After converting to sRGB, resizing and sharpening, choose Layer>Flatten.
Next, look in the 'Channels' pallet and delete all channels except RGB, Red, Green, and Blue.
Save the file
(If any channels were deleted, you will notice that the file size gets smaller)
Select File>Save for Web and Devices
In Save for Web, check 'Optimize' and 'ICC Profile'
Set your quality amount, or 'Optimize to File Size...', and save.
As I said above, my thinking as to what's causing the difference in file size, was just a SWAG. So, honestly, I really don't know if the steps above will fix it. However, as they. "It can't hoit."
Give it a shot using the hawk image and then post it to this thread. Also, let us know what your settings are, and the file size on disk, as you did before. That will help us.
--P
Posted by Dan Moore on February 4, 2011 at 8:56 AM
Preston and Mia,
I do not think that I have the Channels Pallet in Elements 8 or just do not know how to get to it.
I am reposting the Hawk after doing all the work in Photoshop.Still the basic that I did before.
Then I saved for web using Quality 100 and pixel height of 720( I had done the width as 720 on the one from yesterday-my error) The file size on my machine is 280K. I was trying to take Paint Shop out of the process.Please let me know what the real size is! It seems that the image has lost much of the blochyness.We will see how it looks posted.
Dan
Dan
Posted by Mia McPherson on February 4, 2011 at 9:13 AM
Dan,
My thoughts on this are that there must be a default in Paint Shop that is over compressing your files, I believe I'd do all my work in PhotoShop instead (it is the only editing program I use for my images)
I'm posting another screen shot from Safari of your last post of the hawk, as you can see the file size on the NPN server is showing 280 kb.
What is important is that I see more fine detail in the plumage in your last post of the hawk because it has not been over compressed.
I think you nailed it: Paint Shop is doing something off the wall with its jpg algorithm. Perhaps there is a setting that Dan could make that would stop this odd behavior.
The most recent hawk image looks very nice, indeed.
Like you, I do all my post processing in Photo Shop. Its power is amazing!
Dan, you might want to consider staying with PS. I used Paint Shop years ago, and just couldn't get my head around it. PS is much more intuitive, imho.
Just a note, Dan. I use the full PS-CS2. I don't know if Elements is similar, but in the Layers pallet there are three tabs: Layers, Channels, and Paths. You might want to take a peek and see if it's there. You could also check in the View menu in the main command bar.
--P
Posted by Mia McPherson on February 4, 2011 at 10:51 AM
Preston, the last time I used Paint Shop was probably some where around 1998 so I couldn't advise Dan on using it but I prefer to just use PhotoShop alone and I get the quality of image I am looking for easily. I use CS3 and it does everything I need it to do. I have Elements and it is similar to PhotoShop but I've only used it to organize my files in the beginning, now I just rely on my memory for organization.
Dan, channels are under Enhance, Lighting, Levels.
Posted by Harold Ankney on February 4, 2011 at 7:10 PM
Dan
Reading through this, and I may be wrong , but are you saving the file once or maybe twice before you do Save for Web?
Harold
Posted by Dan Moore on February 4, 2011 at 7:31 PM
Harold,
I only saved once before the Save for Web.
I have been slowly-very slowly wadeing into Photoshop. I think that I will take the jump. I think that would be wise since most everyone speaks Photoshop. Paint Shop has always seemed more friendly but I guess that it is time to change.
I am still interested in knowing why the problem was happening.
Dan
Posted by Harold Ankney on February 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM
After all has been tried and maybe someone had addressed this issue, set the ISO to 100 and then use NIK software plugin to sharpen your images. http://www.niksoftware.com/dfine/usa/entry.php
In my experience, I also have found that a blochie appearance is noticable in blue skies. NIK Define takes it out.
Discussion
24 repliesI then went to an image that I think is pretty good -for me- and just sharpened the bird. The resizing using Save for web still left some splotchyness in the BG. Back again I went and used some noise reduction in the bg and resized again -worse. ANY THOUGHTS?
I might add that I am very digitally challenged.
Posted is the bird that I mentioned.Using save for web.
Dan
1. original raw or jpg?
2. if jpg what settings do you have set in camera?
3. if raw what raw converter do you use?
4. when you edit the image (in PSP) what file type are you working on?
5. do you do repeated Saves of a file when it is in jpg form?
6. how much adjustment does a typical image need for exposure?
7. do you work in 8 bit or 16 bit?
Do not confuse Resizing (e.g. going from 2000 px x 3000 px to 1000 px x 1500 px) with jpeg compression (the quality slider you get when first saving an image as jpg. Be sure to make these separate steps in your work flow.
Where in your work flow do you apply required sharpening and how do you do it?
Using my Safari browser this image is only 15.0 KB on the NPN server. Saved at jpeg, maximum, the file size for your 720 pixel image is 53.58kb in part it is that small because of the plain blue background which has little detail to add to the file size.
Make sure when you save for web that it is set to jpeg, maximum and that the quality slider is at 100%. With other images you can use the slider and look under the photo for the file size to go just below 300 for the 720 pixel version. This image won't be near 300 kb though as I mentioned because of the featureless blue background.
I use PaintShop Pro so maybe I can answer your questions. I'm with Richard on needing some answers first on your work flow. It will give us a good starting point on solving this mystery.
Harold
I do have answers to most of the questions asked but will wait for now to see if this may be the biggest part of the problem.
I reviewed my camera settings and found that the color setting was RBG.(new camera) I reset it to SRBG.
When I go to do my work in Photoshop to make ready for NPN this is what happens:
Image>Mode> Check mark on RGB --will not uncheck
8 bits/channel
color table are greyed out
Convert color profile> Convert to SRGB is greyed out
When I proceed with my resizing the info on the top of the image still shows RBG 8 bit.
I also find the slider to finalize the size to be difficult. Often when I try to get near the 200K my options are say 135K or a quick jump to over 200K. Even then the resized image is often 20K less than indicated.
I know I am wandering and if the input here does not do it I will go back and answer the questions individually.
Thanks
Dan
sRGB has a smaller color gamut than RGB. It's best to shoot in the widest possible gamut (say Adobe RGB) in 16-bit.
"Image>Mode will not uncheck" The only way to uncheck it is to choose another profile from the list. Your current setting is as it should be.
"8 bits/channel". This is the only choice for sRGB. If you shoot in RGB at 16-bit, your bits/channel will show 16-bit.
"Convert to Profile is greyed out". Since your current file is already sRGB, this is the way it should be.
"When I proceed with my resizing the info on the top of the image still shows RBG 8 bit."
Resizing an image has no effect on the color space or bit depth.
The slider for JPEG image quality can be tricky. Ninety-nine percent of the time, I simply type in a quality number, say "85" and then click the image. If the file size is still too big, I'll adjust downward. Also, in the Save for Web and Devices dialog, on the right side and just above the quality settings area, is a small arrow. Click the arrow, a menu will appear. One of the selections is "Optimize to file size". Type in the file size you want and then ckick OK. You'll notice that the quality setting will change automatically, and the file size will quite close to what you set.
Another note: If you shoot in 16 bit, create a duplicate file and convert the bit depth of the duplicate to 8-bit. Next, choose Edit>Convert to Profile and select sRGB. Save the file under a new name. Now you can resize it, sharpen as needed and then save for the web. In the Save for Web and Device dialog, place a check mark in the 'ICC Profile' check box. This will embed the sRGB in the image.
I hope this helps. If you need clarification, please holler.
--P
I processed another image with basic processing to keep it simple.Save for Web was also used - I was getting info on both methods and decided to use this for simplicity.First the answers to your questions.
1/ jpeg
2/ raw and jpeg fine
3/na
4/jpeg
5/saved twice
6/No adj at all on this. Generally I make much more -not as good as you folks at reading the situation.
7/8bit
8/ last -but not as late as you would prefer
Process used on image posted on this post (Hawk)No crop.
1/ mask BG
2/sharpen bird --one time at R-2,S-90,C-0
3/ save copy
4/import copy into PS
5/Save for web -optimise to file size set at 300
Came up with Quality-19 and file size 270
The Bg is blotchy especially in the upper portion. --Please check that post is at 270K -that is what is shows on my computer.
Thanks again for your input and PATIENCE.
Dan
The image you posted of the hawk is 720 pixels wide by 1080 pixels in height, when I use the Safari browser and check "activity", locate the file, I can see the file size on the NPN server is only 63.8 kb. I've attached a screen shot with your file as numbered by the NPN program so you can see the file number above the image, then placed the activity window over the hawk and underlined the link to the image in red.
Again there is a lot of featureless blue in the file, when there is a lot of featureless background the file sizes are smaller than they would be if there were lots of leaves or other items in the background.
I'm unable to explain why it is 270 kb on your computer and only 63.8 kb on the NPN server
Which version of PhotoShop are you using?
Dan, your hawk image is showing the same size in IE8 as Mia shows in her screen shot.
--P
Preston, Any suggestions as to what I can do to remedy this?
Dan
Preston, Any suggestions as to what I can do to remedy this?
Dan
Dan, try the following:
After converting to sRGB, resizing and sharpening, choose Layer>Flatten.
Next, look in the 'Channels' pallet and delete all channels except RGB, Red, Green, and Blue.
Save the file
(If any channels were deleted, you will notice that the file size gets smaller)
Select File>Save for Web and Devices
In Save for Web, check 'Optimize' and 'ICC Profile'
Set your quality amount, or 'Optimize to File Size...', and save.
As I said above, my thinking as to what's causing the difference in file size, was just a SWAG. So, honestly, I really don't know if the steps above will fix it. However, as they. "It can't hoit."
Give it a shot using the hawk image and then post it to this thread. Also, let us know what your settings are, and the file size on disk, as you did before. That will help us.
--P
I do not think that I have the Channels Pallet in Elements 8 or just do not know how to get to it.
I am reposting the Hawk after doing all the work in Photoshop.Still the basic that I did before.
Then I saved for web using Quality 100 and pixel height of 720( I had done the width as 720 on the one from yesterday-my error) The file size on my machine is 280K. I was trying to take Paint Shop out of the process.Please let me know what the real size is! It seems that the image has lost much of the blochyness.We will see how it looks posted.
Dan
Dan
My thoughts on this are that there must be a default in Paint Shop that is over compressing your files, I believe I'd do all my work in PhotoShop instead (it is the only editing program I use for my images)
I'm posting another screen shot from Safari of your last post of the hawk, as you can see the file size on the NPN server is showing 280 kb.
What is important is that I see more fine detail in the plumage in your last post of the hawk because it has not been over compressed.
I think you nailed it: Paint Shop is doing something off the wall with its jpg algorithm. Perhaps there is a setting that Dan could make that would stop this odd behavior.
The most recent hawk image looks very nice, indeed.
Like you, I do all my post processing in Photo Shop. Its power is amazing!
Dan, you might want to consider staying with PS. I used Paint Shop years ago, and just couldn't get my head around it. PS is much more intuitive, imho.
Just a note, Dan. I use the full PS-CS2. I don't know if Elements is similar, but in the Layers pallet there are three tabs: Layers, Channels, and Paths. You might want to take a peek and see if it's there. You could also check in the View menu in the main command bar.
--P
Reading through this, and I may be wrong , but are you saving the file once or maybe twice before you do Save for Web?
Harold
I only saved once before the Save for Web.
I have been slowly-very slowly wadeing into Photoshop. I think that I will take the jump. I think that would be wise since most everyone speaks Photoshop. Paint Shop has always seemed more friendly but I guess that it is time to change.
I am still interested in knowing why the problem was happening.
Dan
Check your email.
Harold
In my experience, I also have found that a blochie appearance is noticable in blue skies. NIK Define takes it out.