Posted by Lon Overacker on February 3, 2011 at 5:19 PM
It may be safe to say that everyone likes the oohs and ahhs and pats on the back for their work. And most everyone also appreciates detailed, constructive criticism that helps them learn and grow as a photographer. After all, this is an image critique web forum and that is a primary reason why folks post images here. Beginner, amateur or advanced, we all improve and we're always learning.
There have been plenty of discussions over the years about the number of comments and views that a member receives on a posted image. The intention of this thread is not to address all the myriad of reasons why this may occur and why a new member or beginner may only get a handful of comments and the image right next to theirs gets 30+; this is simply about narrowing that gap and getting yourself a few more and detailed comments.
The intent here is to offer suggestions how a member can maximize the quality and possibly the quantity of comments and critiques received. Please note that these are simply my opinions and observations.
The first three tips below boil down to taking pride in your work. The more time and care you take in preparing your images, the less time people will spend commenting on things like dust specks, tilted horizons and other distractions; nitpicks. Most of us would rather receive comments about composition, emotional impact and what story is being conveyed, than hearing that they need to correct barrel distortion, lens flare or sharpening halos.
5 Tips for better critiques and more comments.
1. Clean up the Garbage. As I mentioned, take pride in your work. Double check, clean up the dust specks, sensor dust or even tiny little leaves or branches intruding along the edges. By presenting a clean and polished image, your reviewers will likely spend their time commenting on more constructive or encouraging critiques rather than nitpicking technical details. Often we read the comments to the effect, "I just wanted to post this real quick for some feedback and I missed the sensor dust spots…" etc. If you have time to process, crop, re-size, file, etc. you should have time to clean up your image. Don't give the reviewer a reason to find little nitpicks. This should encourage more thoughtful critique of your image. 2. Straighten the horizon! One of the most often overlooked and most easily correctable image flaws. Important for the same reasons as in number one, and a tilted horizon is relatively easy to check and correct. Ok, sometimes it's not glaringly obvious, but a simple check may leave others to comment on something more substantial about your image. You can use something like the Ruler tool in PhotoShop or something as simple as the crop tool, aligning to the horizon to check for level. Again, would you rather have a comment about how much someone enjoyed the symmetrical reflection, or that their main comment is about correcting the horizon? 3. Eye Magnets. These are typically little things in an image that draw the eye away from the main subject. Usually a bright spot, clipped highlights, but it also could be a little leaf floating in a perfectly mirrored reflection; or perhaps a tiny patch of sky leaking through a canopy of thick forest. This one is tricky, especially for those who want to remain true to their capture and not alter the scene. I guess it's a matter that is relative to the individual's beliefs about their own photography. But just knowing and understanding that there are often times little elements in a scene that will detract from your main subject and quite often detract the reviewer from your main message and thus a deeper and more meaningful critique. 4. Provide commentary about your posted image. If you post an image with no commentary, one might just assume that beer mugs will suffice for comments. If you want feedback on composition, color, processing, etc., let the folks know the specific feedback you're looking for. Ask the questions; engage in your own thread. The more we know as a reviewer the more we may respond to in our comments. I'm NOT recommending you write a book or respond to every single comment, but if you are looking for feedback, then let the folks know. If you simply want to share your photo and experience, let them know that too. 5. Participation. Probably one of the most talked about subjects over the years and again a subject that deserves it's own thread. It has been stated many different ways… "pay if forward," "what goes around comes around," "you get out what you put in," or "you scratch my back, I scratch yours." The cynical might say it's just the "good ole boys club," or "only the established members get the most comments." The less cynical might just say that's it's human nature and I'm gonna do the best I can and not worry about it what others are saying or doing.
The bottom line is, the more you comment and the more engaged you are as a member of the community, the more response you will get with your own work. It doesn't happen over night nor do any of these suggestions guarantee more comments or views. These things should however provide a better opportunity to get what you want from this community of photographers and image critiques.
I've posted this here in the General Forum because I think this goes across all galleries. Please feel free to add to or discuss. I'm curious to hear what others have to say.
I'll expand by adding one tip/suggestion that I find myself using regularly these days:
If there are distractions that part of you wants to clone out, but another part feels as though that would alter the image too much, try cloning them out on a duplicate layer, and then reduce the opacity a bit. This effectively allows you to control how much you hide the distraction. It isn't altering the image in the same way that completely removing the distraction would be, it's simply reducing the impact to where it's no longer so bothersome, not unlike adjusting contrasts and exposure to balance the light.
Your post is a very good thing. I believe it will greatly strengthen comments and critiques.
Good job!
--P
Posted by Lorna Taylor on February 3, 2011 at 5:54 PM
Thank you Lon for the great tips, I am sure many of us will find them very beneficial !
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 3, 2011 at 8:30 PM
Charlie,
I'm a member first, moderator second, so I hope my opinion counts.
A couple times now you've mentioned "rocked the boat" or "controversy" yet I'm not sure what you mean without an example. Are you trying to figure out what that "line" is that might get someone kicked off the forum? You won't elaborate, but please do? In the context of this thread why not provide a hypothetical? It's really hard to discuss generalities.
In my 4+ years on NPN, I know of one member who was "removed" from membership. A couple others requested to be removed and have their money refunded. I don't know how many members are on NPN, but I'd say the number of folks who have been booted relative to the membership is a pretty dang low percentage. The person who is no longer here made a comment, paraphrasing...."why are you posting such drivel?" and that was the extent of the comment. It was also not the first time and Jim, the owner takes responsibility of addressing these kinds of issues and he did.
Was that "too far" or controversial? I guess if you're on a Newsgroup talking politics and such it's probably the norm. But I think what's expected and frankly makes NPN somewhat unique on the Web is the civility here. People can agree to disagree, but the vast majority of folks do it with courtesy and respect.
I think most folks would rather hear: "This image doesn't work for me because...." rather than, "your image sucks." ( I can say that now in the context of providing examples within this thread!)
Charlie if you have more specifics that you want to chat about just drop me a line. I think if you're trying to figure out where the line is in the sand, I don't have an answer for that.
Lon
Posted by Luke Ormand on February 3, 2011 at 8:35 PM
Well stated Lon - I hope this is seen as useful to the beginners and the old salty dogs alike!
Posted by Keith Bauer on February 3, 2011 at 9:00 PM
Well said Lon. I appreciate your post. I find the best way to improve is to be my own worst critic. Taking pride in your own work (as you stated) is really important. Hopefully this thread will stimulate some good discussion. Thanks again.
Good write up overall, Lon. I think the information reinforces some of the key elements newer folks might miss in their processing, posting, and commenting, as well as older members getting some thoughts as a refresher too.
Posted by Scott Fricke on February 3, 2011 at 9:09 PM
I'd like to ask a question of anyone, moderator or ordinary member. Is there an unwritten thought that a member should not, shall we say, "rock the boat"? It is a natural tendency to have fallen into the "groove" after posting for awhile. Is it not something that causes hesitancy when it is felt that someone has "rocked the boat"? I won't elaborate beyond that phrase. Please don't ask, as I think everyone understands generally what that means..
Charlie, it's hard to comment without a specific example, but for me I see no problem with "rocking the boat" IF it is done in a respectful manner. To me if a comment was made with the intent of honestly critiquing an image then I would accept that as one person's honest opinion, no matter how outrageous the idea might be. On the other hand, a comment like ""why are you posting such drivel?" has no purpose other than to insult someone. There is nothing in that comment that the original poster can gain or learn from. That is how I would personally judge a comment, "Can the poster benefit from this critique/comment?"
I posted an image once and got a critique that suggested I fix part of my image, later I received an email from that member stating that a friend had told him his comment was rude and out of line. I replied back that I did not feel that in any way as the comment was made in an honest attempt at improving my image. If you can't take the heat of an honest critique, then don't post a photo. But I also expect to be treated with the same respect I give other's, that is why I participate on this site and not so much sites like the "newsgroups" you mentioned in another thread.
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 3, 2011 at 9:17 PM
I tend to have a big mouth and NPN has been such a joy that I do not want to cause hurt or misunderstanding.
Charlie, I'm guessing that in other venues and places in life that most of us here can have "big mouths" including myself, although actually I'm quite soft spoken.
But your statement alone tells me you will be just fine here. Acknowledging these things is 99% of the battle. Speaking your mind, with respect, will almost always be accepted. Go for it, there is no 90 day probation period here.
Lon
Thanks for the comments folks!
Posted by Bill Fach on February 4, 2011 at 12:56 AM
Lon: Great points and very well said.
Charlie, I once publicly rebuked a poster who responded sarcastically and defensively to every negative comment made about his images and even to some good constructive suggestions. He stopped and has since become a very solid member and a pretty accomplished photographer. So there is a line but it is pretty subjective. For me as a moderator if comments devolve into insults or denigration I usually say something privately first but if that fails I'm not hesitant to take it public. So far you've been behaving yourself very nicely . One of the great things about NPN in general and Flora in particular is that those incidents are extremely rare. In the four years I've moderated Flora I've sent a total of 3 private rebukes and just the one public.
Thank you, Lon.
As a pluri-year subscriber, but only recent out-of-lurking member, I take your simple but savvy tips and make them mine.
BTW, this is really a nice place too be!
Posted by Stan Rose on February 4, 2011 at 8:41 AM
I agree with the gist of what you said Lon, but i will point out one thing: Even 'minor' technical flaws are generally objective--a crooked horizon is always crooked--but effective composition is more subjective. In that respect, the technical 'nits' are more valuable to a poster than the comments about how effective the comp or message is. If im happy with a comp, i can 'ignore' the subjective comments, but i would never ignore the objective ones.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 4, 2011 at 8:45 AM
Great stuff, Lon! Thanks as well to those who have commented - I need to create a more permanent link to this thread.
Posted by Jason Kim on February 4, 2011 at 1:20 PM
I hear what you're saying, Stan, but I would disagree with you on your last point. I'm pretty selective in what I post to NPN, and suffice to say that if I'm sharing it on this forum, I'm pretty happy with the composition. Objective, technical flaws are the easiest to identify and fix but it is the subjective comments that are of real value (IMO). I'm often disappointed when an image that I genuinely like receives lackluster feedback, because it's an unfortunate sign that something about the image isn't working quite as well as I had hoped.
Objective, technical flaws are the easiest to identify and fix but it is the subjective comments that are of real value (IMO). I'm often disappointed when an image that I genuinely like receives lackluster feedback, because it's an unfortunate sign that something about the image isn't working quite as well as I had hoped.
Jason, I agree with your observation, having experienced this myself on occasion. One way, I believe, to perhaps garner comments regarding subjective observations is too ask for them: 'Does this composition work for you?' Or, 'I believe this image says something about (say) the dynamism of leaves falling from an aspen tree. Do you agree, and if so, why?'
Or, you could say something like, 'I know the horizon is slightly rotated CW. I can fix that, but I'm more interested in your emotional reaction to this image.'
I think such questions ask more of the person writing a comment, but the person penning the comment won't have to guess about what your needs may be regarding the photograph.
Well said, Lon. Excellent topic and excellent post.
Posted by Tony Kuyper on February 5, 2011 at 12:19 PM
the technical 'nits' are more valuable to a poster than the comments about how effective the comp or message is. If im happy with a comp, i can 'ignore' the subjective comments, but i would never ignore the objective ones.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I actually find subjective opinions extremely valuable.
"You've got a couple of dust spots in the sky" helps me make the image better, but it doesn't really make me a better photographer.
"I like the image but the LLC corner draws my eye away from the main focus of the picture. Cropping that would maybe strengthen the image." That type of comment helps me both see better in the field and maybe work better in processing.
If folks sincerely offer subjective opinions, I'm ready to listen. Subjective comments have really helped me improve my images and photography. Granted, a final image shouldn't be a committee decision and it's fine to ignore comments when they're not in line what what you're attempting to do, but overall, I think the subjective comments are far more valuable in helping photographers to think differently about where their image might go.
"If folks sincerely offer objective opinions, I'm ready to listen. Subjective comments have really helped me improve my images and photography. Granted, a final image shouldn't be a committee decision and it's fine to ignore comments when they're not in line what what you're attempting to do, but overall, I think the subjective comments are far more valuable in helping photographers to think differently about where their image might go."
This is an excellent statement, Tony, and one with which I heartily agree.
Wasn't it Ansel Adams who said something like, 'There is nothing worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept.'? Given that statement then, when I receive comments that will help me to better visualize a scene, and thus create more evocative work, I have made progress.
I very much like this thread. As a new member and having only posted one photo to be critiqued, I find the most difficult thing to do is to allow myself to comment on others' work. I think I have constructive things to say but allowing myself to believe that it might actually be helpful to them has been an inner struggle. It is something I hope to conquer soon.
Discussion
19 repliesThere have been plenty of discussions over the years about the number of comments and views that a member receives on a posted image. The intention of this thread is not to address all the myriad of reasons why this may occur and why a new member or beginner may only get a handful of comments and the image right next to theirs gets 30+; this is simply about narrowing that gap and getting yourself a few more and detailed comments.
The intent here is to offer suggestions how a member can maximize the quality and possibly the quantity of comments and critiques received. Please note that these are simply my opinions and observations.
The first three tips below boil down to taking pride in your work. The more time and care you take in preparing your images, the less time people will spend commenting on things like dust specks, tilted horizons and other distractions; nitpicks. Most of us would rather receive comments about composition, emotional impact and what story is being conveyed, than hearing that they need to correct barrel distortion, lens flare or sharpening halos.
5 Tips for better critiques and more comments.
1. Clean up the Garbage. As I mentioned, take pride in your work. Double check, clean up the dust specks, sensor dust or even tiny little leaves or branches intruding along the edges. By presenting a clean and polished image, your reviewers will likely spend their time commenting on more constructive or encouraging critiques rather than nitpicking technical details. Often we read the comments to the effect, "I just wanted to post this real quick for some feedback and I missed the sensor dust spots…" etc. If you have time to process, crop, re-size, file, etc. you should have time to clean up your image. Don't give the reviewer a reason to find little nitpicks. This should encourage more thoughtful critique of your image.
2. Straighten the horizon! One of the most often overlooked and most easily correctable image flaws. Important for the same reasons as in number one, and a tilted horizon is relatively easy to check and correct. Ok, sometimes it's not glaringly obvious, but a simple check may leave others to comment on something more substantial about your image. You can use something like the Ruler tool in PhotoShop or something as simple as the crop tool, aligning to the horizon to check for level. Again, would you rather have a comment about how much someone enjoyed the symmetrical reflection, or that their main comment is about correcting the horizon?
3. Eye Magnets. These are typically little things in an image that draw the eye away from the main subject. Usually a bright spot, clipped highlights, but it also could be a little leaf floating in a perfectly mirrored reflection; or perhaps a tiny patch of sky leaking through a canopy of thick forest. This one is tricky, especially for those who want to remain true to their capture and not alter the scene. I guess it's a matter that is relative to the individual's beliefs about their own photography. But just knowing and understanding that there are often times little elements in a scene that will detract from your main subject and quite often detract the reviewer from your main message and thus a deeper and more meaningful critique.
4. Provide commentary about your posted image. If you post an image with no commentary, one might just assume that beer mugs will suffice for comments. If you want feedback on composition, color, processing, etc., let the folks know the specific feedback you're looking for. Ask the questions; engage in your own thread. The more we know as a reviewer the more we may respond to in our comments. I'm NOT recommending you write a book or respond to every single comment, but if you are looking for feedback, then let the folks know. If you simply want to share your photo and experience, let them know that too.
5. Participation. Probably one of the most talked about subjects over the years and again a subject that deserves it's own thread. It has been stated many different ways… "pay if forward," "what goes around comes around," "you get out what you put in," or "you scratch my back, I scratch yours." The cynical might say it's just the "good ole boys club," or "only the established members get the most comments." The less cynical might just say that's it's human nature and I'm gonna do the best I can and not worry about it what others are saying or doing.
The bottom line is, the more you comment and the more engaged you are as a member of the community, the more response you will get with your own work. It doesn't happen over night nor do any of these suggestions guarantee more comments or views. These things should however provide a better opportunity to get what you want from this community of photographers and image critiques.
I've posted this here in the General Forum because I think this goes across all galleries. Please feel free to add to or discuss. I'm curious to hear what others have to say.
Lon
I'll expand by adding one tip/suggestion that I find myself using regularly these days:
If there are distractions that part of you wants to clone out, but another part feels as though that would alter the image too much, try cloning them out on a duplicate layer, and then reduce the opacity a bit. This effectively allows you to control how much you hide the distraction. It isn't altering the image in the same way that completely removing the distraction would be, it's simply reducing the impact to where it's no longer so bothersome, not unlike adjusting contrasts and exposure to balance the light.
Your post is a very good thing. I believe it will greatly strengthen comments and critiques.
Good job!
--P
I'm a member first, moderator second, so I hope my opinion counts.
A couple times now you've mentioned "rocked the boat" or "controversy" yet I'm not sure what you mean without an example. Are you trying to figure out what that "line" is that might get someone kicked off the forum? You won't elaborate, but please do? In the context of this thread why not provide a hypothetical? It's really hard to discuss generalities.
In my 4+ years on NPN, I know of one member who was "removed" from membership. A couple others requested to be removed and have their money refunded. I don't know how many members are on NPN, but I'd say the number of folks who have been booted relative to the membership is a pretty dang low percentage. The person who is no longer here made a comment, paraphrasing...."why are you posting such drivel?" and that was the extent of the comment. It was also not the first time and Jim, the owner takes responsibility of addressing these kinds of issues and he did.
Was that "too far" or controversial? I guess if you're on a Newsgroup talking politics and such it's probably the norm. But I think what's expected and frankly makes NPN somewhat unique on the Web is the civility here. People can agree to disagree, but the vast majority of folks do it with courtesy and respect.
I think most folks would rather hear: "This image doesn't work for me because...." rather than, "your image sucks." ( I can say that now in the context of providing examples within this thread!)
Charlie if you have more specifics that you want to chat about just drop me a line. I think if you're trying to figure out where the line is in the sand, I don't have an answer for that.
Lon
Charlie, it's hard to comment without a specific example, but for me I see no problem with "rocking the boat" IF it is done in a respectful manner. To me if a comment was made with the intent of honestly critiquing an image then I would accept that as one person's honest opinion, no matter how outrageous the idea might be. On the other hand, a comment like ""why are you posting such drivel?" has no purpose other than to insult someone. There is nothing in that comment that the original poster can gain or learn from. That is how I would personally judge a comment, "Can the poster benefit from this critique/comment?"
I posted an image once and got a critique that suggested I fix part of my image, later I received an email from that member stating that a friend had told him his comment was rude and out of line. I replied back that I did not feel that in any way as the comment was made in an honest attempt at improving my image. If you can't take the heat of an honest critique, then don't post a photo. But I also expect to be treated with the same respect I give other's, that is why I participate on this site and not so much sites like the "newsgroups" you mentioned in another thread.
Charlie, I'm guessing that in other venues and places in life that most of us here can have "big mouths" including myself, although actually I'm quite soft spoken.
But your statement alone tells me you will be just fine here. Acknowledging these things is 99% of the battle. Speaking your mind, with respect, will almost always be accepted. Go for it, there is no 90 day probation period here.
Lon
Thanks for the comments folks!
Charlie, I once publicly rebuked a poster who responded sarcastically and defensively to every negative comment made about his images and even to some good constructive suggestions. He stopped and has since become a very solid member and a pretty accomplished photographer. So there is a line but it is pretty subjective. For me as a moderator if comments devolve into insults or denigration I usually say something privately first but if that fails I'm not hesitant to take it public. So far you've been behaving yourself very nicely
As a pluri-year subscriber, but only recent out-of-lurking member, I take your simple but savvy tips and make them mine.
BTW, this is really a nice place too be!
Jason, I agree with your observation, having experienced this myself on occasion. One way, I believe, to perhaps garner comments regarding subjective observations is too ask for them: 'Does this composition work for you?' Or, 'I believe this image says something about (say) the dynamism of leaves falling from an aspen tree. Do you agree, and if so, why?'
Or, you could say something like, 'I know the horizon is slightly rotated CW. I can fix that, but I'm more interested in your emotional reaction to this image.'
I think such questions ask more of the person writing a comment, but the person penning the comment won't have to guess about what your needs may be regarding the photograph.
Just my 0.0002
--P
I'm not sure I agree with this. I actually find subjective opinions extremely valuable.
"You've got a couple of dust spots in the sky" helps me make the image better, but it doesn't really make me a better photographer.
"I like the image but the LLC corner draws my eye away from the main focus of the picture. Cropping that would maybe strengthen the image." That type of comment helps me both see better in the field and maybe work better in processing.
If folks sincerely offer subjective opinions, I'm ready to listen. Subjective comments have really helped me improve my images and photography. Granted, a final image shouldn't be a committee decision and it's fine to ignore comments when they're not in line what what you're attempting to do, but overall, I think the subjective comments are far more valuable in helping photographers to think differently about where their image might go.
This is an excellent statement, Tony, and one with which I heartily agree.
Wasn't it Ansel Adams who said something like, 'There is nothing worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept.'? Given that statement then, when I receive comments that will help me to better visualize a scene, and thus create more evocative work, I have made progress.
--P