Posted by Kate Silvia on February 24, 2011 at 2:19 PM
Hey gang,
Just curious...what is it that you are looking for when you attend a nature photography "field" workshop? A one-day or weekend type of workshop...
Is it just an excuse to get out and photograph a new place and share ideas? Or are you truly looking for insight into how to take a better photo? Do you expect the instructor to teach you about every aspect of how your camera works and get into the technicals of basic photography? Or are you just looking to improve your vision and perhaps see things in a new way?
Just want to get a feel for what the "majority" of people are looking for. I've been asked to offer some basic instruction in the field and I just don't want to go in the wrong direction and disappoint. Thanks a bunch.
1. a place I want to go
2. Led by someone I know, or at least with excellent references from people I know
3. Led by someone whose images I really like (ie a similar perspective on composing, etc) and has some expertise to share
4. a good teacher
5. Ideally (for me) a NIKON person. The only workshop I have been on with someone using NIKON stuff was with Joe Rossbach to Vermont a year ago. I learned more from him on one week about Nikon tips and tricks than I had learned by myself in 7 years.
6. Small, personal workshop, with a leader who is looking to help you learn, rather than primarily take his own shots. For me, this means a max of 6 people per instructor.
For one-day or weekend workshops, these things are not all so important. I might settle just foir a unique place with personable people!
... a leader who is looking to help you learn, rather than primarily take his own shots.
I'm a real old-fashioned teacher, but for me the students have to come first. I won't consider paying an instructor who is also shooting. If he/she wants to split expenses with students for a joint shooting adventure after the workshop, that's fine. But the class is for the students.
I've crossed swords with other instructors on this point before, and they're welcome to do what they want. But I won't do it, and I certainly won't invest a thin dime in an instructor who will shoot alongside the students. In my experience the students always come in second.
Posted by Bill Chambers on February 24, 2011 at 2:47 PM
I think Sandy made some excellent points! I've never been to a workshop myself, but the one thing I would want more than anything is for the instructor to pay full attention to me and the other member of the class. IMO, the instructor shouldn't be shooting him/herself; I wouldn't want to be paying my hard earned money just so they could get some free shooting time in for themselves. Also, as Sandy mentioned, it would have to be someone who's style/processing I admired as well.
Posted by Phillip Noll on February 24, 2011 at 5:30 PM
To echo Hank and Sandy, I've only been on one photo workshop and I was certainly put off by the instructor spending time shooting instead of teaching. If its a Photo "Tour" where instruction is not expected, then I think its fine for the leader to be shooting his own camera. But if its billed as a "workshop", then instruction is implied and expected and I don't see how you can be an effective instructor if you are busy doing your own thing.
I would certainly want:
Someone who's work I admire
Someone who is an excellent instructor
A relatively small class size
Something I want to learn (whether it be technique, vision, etc.)
Before you spend your hard earned money, do your research and ask questions. Workshops aren't cheap so make sure your expectations are in sync with the instructor's. Good luck!
I have had some good experiences as well as bad ones. My very first "photo safari" put me with a stranger (another paying attendee) at a location I had never been to before and I only saw the leader a couple of times throughout the day for a few minutes. When I asked for some help these Canon shooters told me to check my Nikon manual. He and his partner went shooting. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I've often thought of starting my own business and do it the right way. Not quite ready yet.
I have also been on a few safaris with a husband and wife team. They shot too but only after everyone else was setup. They offered composition ideas along with techniques they were using to all of us. Their prices are good and that is why I return to them year after year.
I have also paid for safaris that the instructor eventually put together free shoots with those he picked from his paid outings. He still stays in touch and is a great resource.
Sandy hits all the spots. References from others is a real deciding factor for me.
So many folks have their tours priced very high IMO and with this economy I just will not spend a crazy amount of money. I would rather buy new equipment than spend $750 for a two or three day event.
Good question Kate.
Andrew
Posted by Max Waugh on February 25, 2011 at 12:10 AM
Kate, I recently sent out a survey asking folks about their workshop/tour preferences (for the same reasons you're asking now). I had two surveys set up: one for folks who had never participated in a workshop/tour before and another for folks who had.
Of the "rookies," the responses to whether people wanted an intense hands-on approach from their instructor vs. more casual "help as needed" mentoring was split 50/50.
Of the workshop/tour vets, the vast majority preferred the more casual approach.
I get the feeling that part of it comes down to the comfort level a client has with their gear and shooting in general, so obviously your potential clients may run the gamut of expectations.
Max
Posted by Greg Lessard on February 25, 2011 at 1:01 AM
Hi Kate,
Start out with something simple. For example do a sunrise/sunset workshop at your favorite local park. Focus on teaching basic things like camera settings and composition. Keep the numbers to ten or less. Go to a few diffierent places in the park where you can discuss how to set up each shot.
I would argue that you should shoot too! Not for your pleasure, but so that the participants can see how you see. Make sure that you can post and discuss the photos at the end of the day or on the web or in a follow up part of the workshop the next day. Nothing is more powerful to teaching than demonstrating the skill that is to be learned. Showing images that were made by you at the same time and place can be very inspiring and helpful for an inexperienced photographer.
For experienced photographers, you can lead in depth discussions about how and why each person did what they did to make their shots. Sometimes one of the participants will have a better shot than you. Make sure they get their chance to shine and talk about their photo. Often, that shot will be made while you are helping someone else. Be sure to highlight it.
Try to get a feel for how much someone wants to be helped. Some people are just happy to be in a group of photographers in a great location and don't want too much instruction. Other people will want help with everything from turning their camera on to how to press the shutter button. Spend your time with each participant accordingly.
Why not do that through the viewfinder of the student's camera, then back off while they explore your vision and take shots of their own on the same chip? That's a learning experience applied on the spot.
We can agree to disagree, but my camera stays firmly at home or in my motel room while I'm teaching.
Posted by John Reed on February 25, 2011 at 6:40 AM
My very first workshop experience was with some "big name" pros but unbeknownst to me until I got there, sponsored by Nikon. It was marketed by another resort compnay and no mention that a camera brand would be the sponsor. I'd have gone anyway but what happened was I was treated like a second class citizen, mainly by the Nikon shooters who seemed to really have superiority complex, but also ridiculed a bit by some of the pros. Obviously, left an impression and not a good one. My second and third experiences were with a smaller group and a husband wife team. Smaller group was a much better experience. At the time I was pretty clueless and welcomed any and all help more than being interested in the location.
Now that I'm leading workshops myself for the last 3 years, I've tried very hard to avoid the same mistakes. I shoot Canon and love Canon but I treat all brands equally and do my best to help folks who are struggling with their gear. I remind them it's not the nameplate that makes the image, but their heart, head and eye. I've learned how to figure out most things on non-Canon brands but when I can't I don't tell them to read their manual, I read it with them.
I keep the size to 12 or less for single day and 15 or less for weekends. I take my camera because field lessons are part of every workshop I do and I will use the camera to determine correct exposure settings or to illustrate something and show them results on the LCD. That's All! No taking personal photos for me because I agree with others that this is poor form. Feedback from attendees has been positive that they appreciate this.
Most of my workshops are local but I do venture out of state in the spring and fall and feedback again has been that some folks come along to see a new spot and some come back for more tech help either with their camera or with fundamentals such as focus, exposure, composition, etc. And, to my great delight, some say they simply come back because they have so much fun with me.
So, in sum, IMHO you need to be able to offer:
* instruction
* a visit to a place you know so you can offer advice on the best way to photograph it
* no bias on camera brand
* the ability to make it some fun along the way
John
Posted by Kate Silvia on February 25, 2011 at 9:10 PM
Thanks so much everybody...this has been incredibly helpful. Looks like my original "plan" in my head of how to approach it is the way to go. I agree about not shooting my own personal stuff. But I think I'd still bring the camera just to let somebody try a lens or a filter that I've got but they haven't used before. I'll never be able to thank Bernabe enough for letting me borrow his Nikon 12-24 out at Hunting Island one year...first time I was exposed to wide angle and I fell in love with it. How many years ago was that??? Yikes!!
I appreciate the time people take to answer these questions on NPN! What a wonderful resource!
Posted by Greg Lessard on February 25, 2011 at 10:34 PM
"Why not do that through the viewfinder of the student's camera, then back off while they explore your vision and take shots of their own on the same chip? That's a learning experience applied on the spot."
Hank that too is an excellent teaching tool which I agree with using in the field. However it is akin to doing the homework for that student. It also only effects the one student. By making the shot and showing it to the whole group, they can all benefit from seeing it.
Demonstration is truly a powerful teaching tool that shouldn't be ignored. To be clear, I am not advocating shooting a lot. When a leader leaves the camera in the bag, the participants miss out on a very important way to learn. Sound educational principles include using as many tools and methods as possible to communicate and demonstrate the ideas that are to be learned.
I agree with Greg here. I've been told by students that they really like being able to watch me work a scene and compose. But, obviously, you then have to spend the time to walk the students through your thought process to include them in the demo, and always make it clear that they are your first priority, not you getting your shot (on their dime).
My philosophy with workshops is that they are essentially a real time critique. So, rather than taking a picture and posting it to the web for critique (which may or may not be helpful), and then slowly iterating on it, you can get months of those iterations in just a single weekend workshop because you're constantly getting feedback from someone who's work you admire.
The nikon/canon points are interesting. I've never been biased (I shoot canon), but it makes me think that it would be of great value to be very familiar with both systems.
Posted by Andy Richards on February 26, 2011 at 4:18 PM
Kate: Lots of good points here from some folks who know what they are talking about. You say you have been asked to provide some field instruction. By whom? If it is by other photographers, I would try to find out what their expectations are. What is their level of knowledge already. I have attended a couple workshops where the instructor was available for me for anything I wanted from them, but not completely structured. In one case, the leader/instructor had his camera with him but made it very clear that his primary purpose was to be available for instruction, tips and critique. In the other cases, the instructor moved around to those who sought instruction and did not have a camera. Both approaches were useful and successful in my view.
John - clearly, you just need to buy a Nikon Camera. Surely, you don't think you can make a good image with anything other than a Nikon? Seriously, I think I would have been asking for my $$ back. There is NO place for riducule, whether you carry a Nikon, Cannon, or a disposable. Big name or no, I would question the credentials of the leaders of that workshop. I'm a Nikon shooter. I think the camera brand makes about 1/10 of 1% difference (notice I didn't say better or worse) in a shooters circumstances. I have attended Nikon sponsored seminars and I have never even heard a Nikon spokesperson (other than in jest) remark about their competitor brands. I would think Nikon would want to know about the persons who ridiculed you.
Posted by Greg Lessard on February 26, 2011 at 4:19 PM
"The nikon/canon points are interesting. I've never been biased (I shoot canon), but it makes me think that it would be of great value to be very familiar with both systems."
I happen to use Nikon. I have found that when I want to do anything with a Canon, I do exactly opposite what I would do with a Nikon camera. No joke. I am just glad the camera companies aren't in charge of making cars.
Discussion
14 repliesJust curious...what is it that you are looking for when you attend a nature photography "field" workshop? A one-day or weekend type of workshop...
Is it just an excuse to get out and photograph a new place and share ideas? Or are you truly looking for insight into how to take a better photo? Do you expect the instructor to teach you about every aspect of how your camera works and get into the technicals of basic photography? Or are you just looking to improve your vision and perhaps see things in a new way?
Just want to get a feel for what the "majority" of people are looking for. I've been asked to offer some basic instruction in the field and I just don't want to go in the wrong direction and disappoint. Thanks a bunch.
Kate
2. Led by someone I know, or at least with excellent references from people I know
3. Led by someone whose images I really like (ie a similar perspective on composing, etc) and has some expertise to share
4. a good teacher
5. Ideally (for me) a NIKON person. The only workshop I have been on with someone using NIKON stuff was with Joe Rossbach to Vermont a year ago. I learned more from him on one week about Nikon tips and tricks than I had learned by myself in 7 years.
6. Small, personal workshop, with a leader who is looking to help you learn, rather than primarily take his own shots. For me, this means a max of 6 people per instructor.
For one-day or weekend workshops, these things are not all so important. I might settle just foir a unique place with personable people!
Sandy
I'm a real old-fashioned teacher, but for me the students have to come first. I won't consider paying an instructor who is also shooting. If he/she wants to split expenses with students for a joint shooting adventure after the workshop, that's fine. But the class is for the students.
I've crossed swords with other instructors on this point before, and they're welcome to do what they want. But I won't do it, and I certainly won't invest a thin dime in an instructor who will shoot alongside the students. In my experience the students always come in second.
I would certainly want:
Someone who's work I admire
Someone who is an excellent instructor
A relatively small class size
Something I want to learn (whether it be technique, vision, etc.)
Before you spend your hard earned money, do your research and ask questions. Workshops aren't cheap so make sure your expectations are in sync with the instructor's. Good luck!
I have also been on a few safaris with a husband and wife team. They shot too but only after everyone else was setup. They offered composition ideas along with techniques they were using to all of us. Their prices are good and that is why I return to them year after year.
I have also paid for safaris that the instructor eventually put together free shoots with those he picked from his paid outings. He still stays in touch and is a great resource.
Sandy hits all the spots. References from others is a real deciding factor for me.
So many folks have their tours priced very high IMO and with this economy I just will not spend a crazy amount of money. I would rather buy new equipment than spend $750 for a two or three day event.
Good question Kate.
Andrew
Of the "rookies," the responses to whether people wanted an intense hands-on approach from their instructor vs. more casual "help as needed" mentoring was split 50/50.
Of the workshop/tour vets, the vast majority preferred the more casual approach.
I get the feeling that part of it comes down to the comfort level a client has with their gear and shooting in general, so obviously your potential clients may run the gamut of expectations.
Max
Start out with something simple. For example do a sunrise/sunset workshop at your favorite local park. Focus on teaching basic things like camera settings and composition. Keep the numbers to ten or less. Go to a few diffierent places in the park where you can discuss how to set up each shot.
I would argue that you should shoot too! Not for your pleasure, but so that the participants can see how you see. Make sure that you can post and discuss the photos at the end of the day or on the web or in a follow up part of the workshop the next day. Nothing is more powerful to teaching than demonstrating the skill that is to be learned. Showing images that were made by you at the same time and place can be very inspiring and helpful for an inexperienced photographer.
For experienced photographers, you can lead in depth discussions about how and why each person did what they did to make their shots. Sometimes one of the participants will have a better shot than you. Make sure they get their chance to shine and talk about their photo. Often, that shot will be made while you are helping someone else. Be sure to highlight it.
Try to get a feel for how much someone wants to be helped. Some people are just happy to be in a group of photographers in a great location and don't want too much instruction. Other people will want help with everything from turning their camera on to how to press the shutter button. Spend your time with each participant accordingly.
Be sure to have fun!
Why not do that through the viewfinder of the student's camera, then back off while they explore your vision and take shots of their own on the same chip? That's a learning experience applied on the spot.
We can agree to disagree, but my camera stays firmly at home or in my motel room while I'm teaching.
Now that I'm leading workshops myself for the last 3 years, I've tried very hard to avoid the same mistakes. I shoot Canon and love Canon but I treat all brands equally and do my best to help folks who are struggling with their gear. I remind them it's not the nameplate that makes the image, but their heart, head and eye. I've learned how to figure out most things on non-Canon brands but when I can't I don't tell them to read their manual, I read it with them.
I keep the size to 12 or less for single day and 15 or less for weekends. I take my camera because field lessons are part of every workshop I do and I will use the camera to determine correct exposure settings or to illustrate something and show them results on the LCD. That's All! No taking personal photos for me because I agree with others that this is poor form. Feedback from attendees has been positive that they appreciate this.
Most of my workshops are local but I do venture out of state in the spring and fall and feedback again has been that some folks come along to see a new spot and some come back for more tech help either with their camera or with fundamentals such as focus, exposure, composition, etc. And, to my great delight, some say they simply come back because they have so much fun with me.
So, in sum, IMHO you need to be able to offer:
* instruction
* a visit to a place you know so you can offer advice on the best way to photograph it
* no bias on camera brand
* the ability to make it some fun along the way
John
I appreciate the time people take to answer these questions on NPN! What a wonderful resource!
Hank that too is an excellent teaching tool which I agree with using in the field. However it is akin to doing the homework for that student. It also only effects the one student. By making the shot and showing it to the whole group, they can all benefit from seeing it.
Demonstration is truly a powerful teaching tool that shouldn't be ignored. To be clear, I am not advocating shooting a lot. When a leader leaves the camera in the bag, the participants miss out on a very important way to learn. Sound educational principles include using as many tools and methods as possible to communicate and demonstrate the ideas that are to be learned.
My philosophy with workshops is that they are essentially a real time critique. So, rather than taking a picture and posting it to the web for critique (which may or may not be helpful), and then slowly iterating on it, you can get months of those iterations in just a single weekend workshop because you're constantly getting feedback from someone who's work you admire.
The nikon/canon points are interesting. I've never been biased (I shoot canon), but it makes me think that it would be of great value to be very familiar with both systems.
John - clearly, you just need to buy a Nikon Camera. Surely, you don't think you can make a good image with anything other than a Nikon?
I happen to use Nikon. I have found that when I want to do anything with a Canon, I do exactly opposite what I would do with a Nikon camera. No joke. I am just glad the camera companies aren't in charge of making cars.