Well, I'm finally going to buy a LF camera To say I have a lot to learn about LF is probably an understatement, so please excuse the following stupid questions. I'm leaning towards getting a Wista 4x5 45DX with rear shift. One question I have is on the film holders. I'm thinking of getting the fujifilm quick film holder. My question is - does it make sense to only buy this filmhoder? What are some of the advantages/disadvantages of the quick holder? Any other general words of wisdom on buying a LF would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: I guess I should add that I'll probably shoot mostly Fuji Provia (That's what I shoot on my MF).
Gary,
I use the Fuji Quickloads and I love them. but i did come from using the regular holders first, and it was instructive to go through the process of loading them and shooting with them. but i don't think it is a necessity to have used them. As far as buying only the fuji holder, as long as you are only going to shoot fuji quickloads, then that is fine. I have never had a problem, and i know a lot of people here at CNP use them too with great results. i haven't found any disadvantages to the holder yet. And one extra bonus is that Provia seems to be the cheapest quickloads out there. my only word of wisdom on the LF camera purchase would be to make sure the camera is going to handle the longest lens you would ever want to shoot. I wish i could shoot a 500mm, but my Shen-Hao can only handle a 300mm. other than that, I am still a novice so I don't have anymore wisdom. hope that helps a bit.
Chris
The only downside to using a Fuji QL holder is the increased per-shot expense of the film. That extra cost is easily surpassed by the holder's ease of use and ability to provide dust-free images. I highly recommend it.
As for your camera choice, you make a point of mentioning a camera with rear shift. Any reason why that particular feature is important to you?
I see no problem starting out with the Quickload holder as long as that's the type of film you want to shoot. As mentioned, film will be more expensive. But the added convenience is worth it to me (especially when I find good deals on Quickloads on eBay ). FWIW, I also shoot with graphmatics and standard film holders when working from the vehicle. But when on the trail, I almost always use Quickloads.
I recommend you purchase the current model Kodak Readyload holder (mfr number 8937542) rather than the Fuji. It is the most compatible film holder and will accommodate both Kodak and Fuji film. If you purchase the Fuji holder, your will have trouble using Kodak film. The same is true when using Fuji film and the older versions of the Kodak film holder.
Just know that Quickload or Readyload film is a lot more expensive than regular sheets.
I would recommend getting the Kodak Readyload holder instead of the Fuji. I believe (and correct me guys if I am wrong) that the Kodak one works with Fuji film but the Fuji one wont work with Kodak film. I have the Kodak Readyload holder and it works great with Kodak and Fuji Film. I know you primarily shoot Provia at this time but you never know what may be coming up and who knows maybe I'll convince ya to shoot some TMAX I primarily use quickloads/readyloads while hiking. the rest of the time (ie: shorter hikes and drive bys) I use cut sheet film. Cut sheet film will save you a TON of money FWIW.
Camera wise the Wista is a great unit, I would also look into the Shen-Hao, Toyo and Toho. Personally I shoot the Wisner 4x5 and have plenty of bellows draw. I second Chris's opinion on making sure you have enough bellows.
Let us know how else we might be able to help you out.
You've convinced me as far as the Kodak Readyload. I may also get a couple of standard film holders for certain occasions and so that I know how to work them. (As long as I'm already spending money )
Todd - I only mentioned the rear shift because that's how B&H has the camera listed.
Good point about the bellows. The Wista I'm looking at has a 12 inch maximum extention. I'm not sure what that equats to for a lense's focal length - I'll have to look in my book when I get home to figure it out. (Unless someone here beats me to it) Thanks again!
12" = 300mm lens for your longest. A Nikon 360T will work also.
I have the same Wista, and love it! Had it for about 17 years! The bellows draw has been fine, but I know someday I'm gonna want some longer lenses. I'll deal with that when I can afford them! HA! As far as the back shift goes, it isn't much, but I sure do use it a lot for fine tuning a composition. If you have any questions about the camera, feel free to ask. Rick D and Scott Bacon have the same or similar cameras too.
I agree with getting the Kodak holder. I have a slightly older one, and use pretty much exclusively Fuji film in it, with no problems at all! I actually shoot 80% of the time with cut sheets, but that's mainly because A) I'm cheap! and B) I have about 70 holders!!! I do however splurge on the Quickloads when I know I'm going to do a big hike or such, or be in a very dusty and dirty environment.
Gary, You can use a 300mm on the Wista DX. But the minimum focus distance is about 50' with the lens on a flat lensboard. That doesn't bode well if you are trying to compose something nice in the foregroud. The solution is to put your 300mm on an extended lensboard. This will allow you to focus on objects much closer - say 6-8'. That's how I use mine.
Are you buying new? If so, I'd recommend spending an extra few hundred bucks on the Ebony RW45. Better build, longer bellows, etc. That's the way I'd go, if I were doing it all over again. That being said, I've been very happy with my Wista DX.
FWIW, I use the new Kodak holder too - works fine for Fuji Quickloads and Kodak Readyloads - never had a problem.
I second the Ebony RW45. Just make sure you get it with the Universal Bellows. If I was starting out again this is the camera i would get from the beginning.
With all this talk about holders, I feel obligated to chime in and say that my Readyload holder is warped. It was a long arduous process to figure this out, btw. Just talked to a Kodak guy today and it sounds like they are going to replace it for me. If they do, I have to say - excellent service. However a few days ago I went ahead and bought a Fuji holder (in the mail now). At least now I'll have a backup, and will be able to do a hands on comparison.
If you can buy your camera from Midwest Photo Exchange (www.mpex.com) by all means do so. Their customer service is the best I've experienced - for anything.
I am not a LF shooter, but have heard Badger Graphics mentioned several times, on several threads as a place to buy LF gear. I did not see that mentioned here, so I thought that I would throw that in.
I was just looking at the Ebony RW45 on Badger Graphics. In the past, I've bought all of my equipement locally or through B&H, but B&H doesn't seem to carry the Ebony. (Nor does mpex). Has anyone dealt directly with Badger Graphics?
Hey - how did that happen (I just deleted about 3 copies of my last post. I guess I shouldn't just hit the refresh button)
Posted by Brent Murphy on April 6, 2006 at 6:57 PM
Gary - Yeah, I'm not sure exactly why, but if you hit 'refresh' after you post, it will keep posting copies. Strange, and annoying, but you get used to it.
Thanks for all of the help so far. Since you guys are definitely the experts here, I'm now leaning towards the Ebony RW45. As far as lenses, I'd like to start out with something around 180 mm. B&H has a used lens that comes with a 'lensboard'. (No other description of the type of lensboard.) I see the Ebony description mentions a 'Lenhof-type' of lensboard. Can I assume that the generic lensboard mentioned on B&H would work? Again, any other words of wisdom on lenses is greatly appreciated as well!
Master? I like that, but don't know if I can live up to it!
180mm is usually considered slightly longer than normal on 4x5 - normal being about 150mm.
You should think about what you want for your full lens "kit." For example my kit is 75, 135, 210, 300. My lower end is slightly wide. But that's the way I like to shoot. Some like 90, 150 better, etc. So instead of just thinking about your first lens, think also about what you might want down the road. It might be helpful to meet someone, on location, and take a look at the what the actual focal lengths look like on the ground glass.
B&H, Midwest, Badger, KEH, and eBay (if you're careful) are all good places to buy from. I've bought every single one of my lenses on eBay - I'm patient.
If you haven't already found it, go here and do lots of reading. There are many great articles on getting started... Large Format Home Page
Gary: Great advice here. I have bought used lenses from both Badger and MPEX. Both of these places provide great equipment and service. Jeff is the guy to speak with at Badger and Jim is the person to speak with at MPEX. I have also purchased 35mm lenses from KEH and there service and ratings are top notch as well. I shoot with both quickloads and film holders now. I started with just quickloads and it's a great albeit more expensive way to get started. Dust is a minor but annoying factor with film holders. Quickloads are a bit lighter and more conveinent if you plan on hiking long distances. Lots of roadside stuff, or things I shoot often I shoot with film holders to keep the expense down. As far as lenses go, my first lens was a 150. It is still one of my most used focal length. I purchased a 110 XL soon after going LF in 2000 and have to say it is without question my most used and favorite lens in my bag now. I shoot with a Toyo 45AX and although its a bit heavy, its a tank and I really like it. I would recomend a 90,150,240 setup to start but focal lenghts in LF are like film, to each there own. Good luck!.
Posted by Gary Megrenne on April 7, 2006 at 12:10 AM
Thanks for all of the great advice! This will definitely help with my decision making. Well - back to surfing to see what else I can learn!
Lots of great advice in here Gary. Regarding your last question about lenses, here's a document that I got from one of the LF forums that has been extremely useful: Lenses for Large Format. It's a list of most LF lenses, size, weight, image circle, new price, used price, shutter size, etc. There's a column that gives the equivalent 35mm focal length which is nice when first starting to 'think' in LF terms. Comes in very handy when sizing up lenses on ebay or trying to see what matches your budget.
If you'll be hiking and weight is a consideration, in general you'll want to stick to lenses with a Copal 0 or 1 shutter - much lighter than the Copal 3 models.
With regards to image circle, larger image circles will afford you greater camera movements.
One comment on the XL lenses and LF lenses in general. In general, LF lenses - especially used or older ones - hold their price very well and many/most can be found coming an going on ebay. I've purchased 3 of my 4 lenses on ebay with no problems, using care of course in who I deal with. If you're unsure about a lens, you can buy it, try it and if you don't like it you'll likely be able to sell it again for around the same price, give or take. Which brings me to the XL lenses from Schneider. I have the 80mm XL which I love - very sharp lens. I've heard great things about the 110 XL also, however it was impossible to find used given that it's a relatively new design. Since the only option was for a new lens, and that was $1,500+, I opted for a Schneider 120 Super Symmar HM which was less than half the price of the 110 XL and it's sharper than my 80mm XL; in fact, it's the sharpest lens I have (and I have some good glass). Doing it over again, I'd still buy the 120 HM in place of the 110 XL and put the extra $900 towards something else. Personal choice of course, but my $0.02.
CNP is very LF-heavy. If you narrow down a wish list of lenses and need help choosing or tweaking, there's a good chance you'll find folks here who have used the lenses you're considering.
Good luck!
Posted by Rene Pirolt on April 7, 2006 at 10:46 AM
Gary,
In my opinion, it is best to start with a lens in the 135mm - 210mm range and become familiar with it. Thereafter you can decide if you need a wider or longer lens, and start to build your lens system.
My first lens was a Nikkor W 210mm f/5.6 and my second a Nikkor SW 90mm f/8 - those are my most often used lenses. Third lens purchase was a Rodenstock Sironar-S 150mm.
As for Badger - they are first rate, and my absolute favorite place to buy camera gear
Gary
You are getting some great advice!
I usually buy my LF gear from Badger and they have always been very reliable.
If you are in the market for Nikkor SW 90mm f/8 I have one for sale for a great price
Steve
Posted by Gary Megrenne on April 7, 2006 at 11:28 AM
Rene - How do you like the Rodenstock Sironar-S 150mm? I was looking at that lens earlier. I think I want to start out with a lens pretty close to 'normal' focal length. A have two lenses for my MF - a wide and a normal. I used the normal one at least 90% of the time. I'm not sure if I'll still prefer a normal focal length with the LF, but I guess I need to start somewhere.
(BTW - thanks for the offer Steve, but I think I'll start out with a little longer lens)
Posted by Scott Bacon on April 7, 2006 at 11:37 AM
The Rodenstock Sironar-S 150mm is an outstanding lens. Couldn't go wrong there...
Posted by Gary Megrenne on April 7, 2006 at 11:51 AM
hmmm... If I'm reading Rick's chart correctly, it says that a 200mm LF lens is equivalent to a 50 mm lens on a 35mm camera. Is that correct?
Posted by Rene Pirolt on April 7, 2006 at 11:53 AM
Gary - the Sironar-S 150mm is an excellent lens. Very compact, very sharp, and a nice big image circle of 231mm.
Something you may think about - the front filter thread of the lens is 49mm. Many other LF lenses have larger threads - 67mm is a very common size. So when buying filters you need a step up ring, unless you buy dedicated filters for the lens. I only use 77mm filters and have step-up rings for all my lenses, including the Rodenstock.
I haven't looked at Rick's chart. But keep in mind that 35mm to 4x5 isn't a direct comparison because of the differing length/width ratio of the film. As a general rule of thumb (that's GENERAL as in ROUGH COMPARISON), a 4x5 focal length divided by 3 gets you in the ballpark of a similar 35mm focal length. So anything around a 150mm lens in 4x5 is considered "normal". 200 is slightly longer than normal, in my opinion.
Gary, if you want to give my gear a trial run, or just check out the lens focal lengths, we could meet up in the Springs tomorrow sometime. My lens lineup is 90, 135, 200, and 300.
Posted by Gary Megrenne on April 7, 2006 at 12:05 PM
Thanks Rich - that's a great offer! I can meet at whatever time is convenient for you. We could go over to GotG or something.... just let me know.
gary, welcome to the addiction! you've gotten all the good advice you can manage here, so i've not too much to add. i would advise you to also try jim at midwest photo exchange for any new or used purchases. i do 95% of my dealings with him and have never regretted a single transaction - he's the only dealer i can say that about! lens selection is a very personal choice, so take the opportunity to go out shooting with rich and run through his glass. my lens kit has gone through several iterations, finally settling on 58-80-110-150-210-305-355-450-600. easily 90% of my work comes from my glass in the 80-210 range. and like many others here, my single most used lens in my 110-XL. i liked it so much i bought two of them! It ain’t magical, I just really like the perspective it yields.
oh, and don't fall into analysis paralysis! remember, there's a very healthy used market and if you buy used from a good broker like jim at midwest, you stand to loose very little, if any, getting out of gear. lastly, take all the internet hype out there with a grain of sand... i've gone through over 11 cameras and 30 lenses over the past few years and the more gear i test, the more i realize that there is no magic glass, there is no wonder-camera, there is only good technique and solid tripods.
Scott wrote:
... there is no magic glass, there is no wonder-camera, there is only good technique and solid tripods.
Amen!
Posted by Gary Megrenne on April 10, 2006 at 12:12 AM
Thanks to everyone for helping me figure out a large format system! I just ordered the Ebony RW45, a Rodenstock Sironar-S 150mm lens, the Kodak Readyload holder, and other miscellaneous stuff. (Looks like I'll be eating Ramen noodles for awhile). The hands on lesson with Rich helped alot. Thanks again everyone
Discussion
37 repliesEdit: I guess I should add that I'll probably shoot mostly Fuji Provia (That's what I shoot on my MF).
I use the Fuji Quickloads and I love them. but i did come from using the regular holders first, and it was instructive to go through the process of loading them and shooting with them. but i don't think it is a necessity to have used them. As far as buying only the fuji holder, as long as you are only going to shoot fuji quickloads, then that is fine. I have never had a problem, and i know a lot of people here at CNP use them too with great results. i haven't found any disadvantages to the holder yet. And one extra bonus is that Provia seems to be the cheapest quickloads out there. my only word of wisdom on the LF camera purchase would be to make sure the camera is going to handle the longest lens you would ever want to shoot. I wish i could shoot a 500mm, but my Shen-Hao can only handle a 300mm. other than that, I am still a novice so I don't have anymore wisdom. hope that helps a bit.
Chris
As for your camera choice, you make a point of mentioning a camera with rear shift. Any reason why that particular feature is important to you?
I recommend you purchase the current model Kodak Readyload holder (mfr number 8937542) rather than the Fuji. It is the most compatible film holder and will accommodate both Kodak and Fuji film. If you purchase the Fuji holder, your will have trouble using Kodak film. The same is true when using Fuji film and the older versions of the Kodak film holder.
Just know that Quickload or Readyload film is a lot more expensive than regular sheets.
Enjoy your LF camera!
I would recommend getting the Kodak Readyload holder instead of the Fuji. I believe (and correct me guys if I am wrong) that the Kodak one works with Fuji film but the Fuji one wont work with Kodak film. I have the Kodak Readyload holder and it works great with Kodak and Fuji Film. I know you primarily shoot Provia at this time but you never know what may be coming up and who knows maybe I'll convince ya to shoot some TMAX
Camera wise the Wista is a great unit, I would also look into the Shen-Hao, Toyo and Toho. Personally I shoot the Wisner 4x5 and have plenty of bellows draw. I second Chris's opinion on making sure you have enough bellows.
Let us know how else we might be able to help you out.
RichieV
You've convinced me as far as the Kodak Readyload. I may also get a couple of standard film holders for certain occasions and so that I know how to work them. (As long as I'm already spending money
Todd - I only mentioned the rear shift because that's how B&H has the camera listed.
Good point about the bellows. The Wista I'm looking at has a 12 inch maximum extention. I'm not sure what that equats to for a lense's focal length - I'll have to look in my book when I get home to figure it out. (Unless someone here beats me to it) Thanks again!
I have the same Wista, and love it! Had it for about 17 years! The bellows draw has been fine, but I know someday I'm gonna want some longer lenses. I'll deal with that when I can afford them! HA!
I agree with getting the Kodak holder. I have a slightly older one, and use pretty much exclusively Fuji film in it, with no problems at all! I actually shoot 80% of the time with cut sheets, but that's mainly because A) I'm cheap!
Good luck!!
Are you buying new? If so, I'd recommend spending an extra few hundred bucks on the Ebony RW45. Better build, longer bellows, etc. That's the way I'd go, if I were doing it all over again. That being said, I've been very happy with my Wista DX.
FWIW, I use the new Kodak holder too - works fine for Fuji Quickloads and Kodak Readyloads - never had a problem.
I second the Ebony RW45. Just make sure you get it with the Universal Bellows. If I was starting out again this is the camera i would get from the beginning.
RichieV
If you can buy your camera from Midwest Photo Exchange (www.mpex.com) by all means do so. Their customer service is the best I've experienced - for anything.
Nathan
RichieV
180mm is usually considered slightly longer than normal on 4x5 - normal being about 150mm.
You should think about what you want for your full lens "kit." For example my kit is 75, 135, 210, 300. My lower end is slightly wide. But that's the way I like to shoot. Some like 90, 150 better, etc. So instead of just thinking about your first lens, think also about what you might want down the road. It might be helpful to meet someone, on location, and take a look at the what the actual focal lengths look like on the ground glass.
B&H, Midwest, Badger, KEH, and eBay (if you're careful) are all good places to buy from. I've bought every single one of my lenses on eBay - I'm patient.
If you haven't already found it, go here and do lots of reading. There are many great articles on getting started... Large Format Home Page
I started with a 110mm Schneider XL and a 210 Nikon W. I have many other lenses now but those are STILL my 2 most used pieces of glass.
I have bought many lenses on EBay and have had no issues (so -far).
RichieV
If you'll be hiking and weight is a consideration, in general you'll want to stick to lenses with a Copal 0 or 1 shutter - much lighter than the Copal 3 models.
With regards to image circle, larger image circles will afford you greater camera movements.
One comment on the XL lenses and LF lenses in general. In general, LF lenses - especially used or older ones - hold their price very well and many/most can be found coming an going on ebay. I've purchased 3 of my 4 lenses on ebay with no problems, using care of course in who I deal with. If you're unsure about a lens, you can buy it, try it and if you don't like it you'll likely be able to sell it again for around the same price, give or take. Which brings me to the XL lenses from Schneider. I have the 80mm XL which I love - very sharp lens. I've heard great things about the 110 XL also, however it was impossible to find used given that it's a relatively new design. Since the only option was for a new lens, and that was $1,500+, I opted for a Schneider 120 Super Symmar HM which was less than half the price of the 110 XL and it's sharper than my 80mm XL; in fact, it's the sharpest lens I have (and I have some good glass). Doing it over again, I'd still buy the 120 HM in place of the 110 XL and put the extra $900 towards something else. Personal choice of course, but my $0.02.
CNP is very LF-heavy. If you narrow down a wish list of lenses and need help choosing or tweaking, there's a good chance you'll find folks here who have used the lenses you're considering.
Good luck!
In my opinion, it is best to start with a lens in the 135mm - 210mm range and become familiar with it. Thereafter you can decide if you need a wider or longer lens, and start to build your lens system.
My first lens was a Nikkor W 210mm f/5.6 and my second a Nikkor SW 90mm f/8 - those are my most often used lenses. Third lens purchase was a Rodenstock Sironar-S 150mm.
As for Badger - they are first rate, and my absolute favorite place to buy camera gear
You are getting some great advice!
I usually buy my LF gear from Badger and they have always been very reliable.
If you are in the market for Nikkor SW 90mm f/8 I have one for sale for a great price
Steve
(BTW - thanks for the offer Steve, but I think I'll start out with a little longer lens)
Something you may think about - the front filter thread of the lens is 49mm. Many other LF lenses have larger threads - 67mm is a very common size. So when buying filters you need a step up ring, unless you buy dedicated filters for the lens. I only use 77mm filters and have step-up rings for all my lenses, including the Rodenstock.
Gary, if you want to give my gear a trial run, or just check out the lens focal lengths, we could meet up in the Springs tomorrow sometime. My lens lineup is 90, 135, 200, and 300.
oh, and don't fall into analysis paralysis! remember, there's a very healthy used market and if you buy used from a good broker like jim at midwest, you stand to loose very little, if any, getting out of gear. lastly, take all the internet hype out there with a grain of sand... i've gone through over 11 cameras and 30 lenses over the past few years and the more gear i test, the more i realize that there is no magic glass, there is no wonder-camera, there is only good technique and solid tripods.
Amen!