Posted by Howard Cihak on March 1, 2011 at 6:44 AM
O.K., I've had it with trying to compensate for prints that come out too dark when compared to what looks right on my monitor screen. I'm ready to buy a monitor that I won't have to compensate for.
Posted by Howard Cihak on March 1, 2011 at 8:27 AM
Hi John,
Well, obviously, I'd love to spend a little as necessary, but if I've got to spend more, then so be it.
My frustration has boiled over because, while I can certainly compensate for brightness in the printing process, I'm finding that different degrees of brightness are required for different images of apparently similar levels of inherent image brightness. In other words, a consistent formula (in an action) won't work.
I'm ready to buy a monitor that I won't have to compensate for.
I'm finding that different degrees of brightness are required for different images of apparently similar levels of inherent image brightness.
That could be monitor related, but I wouldn't pin point that. I have a bunch of questions actually Howard. But I'll start with these :
Are you always letting your monitor warm up before working on or printing images?
What is your monitor calibration flow and what brightness level is it set at during calibration?
If you've been through all that, and are still set on a new monitor, the low end for very good LCDs 24 inches and above starts at around $500 - $600, and goes up. You might be able to find something somewhat cheaper if need be, but it may not calibrate quite as well, or be quite as even across the whole panel, etc. It depends on how critical you get with your color.
The usual main recommendation is to make sure you at least get an IPS type panel. You can see a good list of available ones here.
One of the best regarded for the price is seems to be the NEC PA241-W for about $1000. That's getting into the high-end of course.
Posted by Howard Cihak on March 1, 2011 at 10:55 AM
David,
Yes, I always allow the monitor to warm up, and I calibrate it using a Spyder2. The brightness level is set according to the calibration instructions. In fact, if anything, I've leaned toward lowering the brightness a little more than the calibration instructions called for.
I've seen others recommend an IPS panel monitor. However, how can you tell if the monitor really is equipped with an IPS panel? I've read that Dell has been known to switch to lower quality panels in their monitors that are nominally equipped with IPS panels when the IPS units were not available during production? I don't know if other makers are known to do the same.
I think you need to look at your entire color management system and workflow, becasue, as David says, the issues you are having may point to something other than a monitor problem. With that in mind, I have some questions for you...
1. What screen brightness level are you using?
2. What contrast ratio are you using?
3. When you calibrate your monitor, do you do this in the same ambient (room) light that you use when printing?
4. Do you soft proof?
5. Are you using the correct paper profile?
6. Are you allowing Photo Shop to manage colors?
7. What rendering intent are you using?
8. Does the paper type in your printer driver agree with that set in Photo Shop?
9. If you are allowing Photo Shop to manage color, have you turned off color management in the printer driver?
Also, an action used to make prints may not be a good way to go. Each image has different requirements for brightness and contrast, so a 'one size fits all' concept may not work. Additionally, larger prints may require a slight boost in contrast compared with what is needed for a smaller print.
My counsel would be for you to work each image individually, learn how to soft proof and make hard copy proofs.
Color management is broad subject because there are many factors involved and they are all tied together. Analyzing your settings, workflow, hardware, profiles, etc. will likely show where the discontinuties lie.
I hope you get this sorted out. Don't spend money until you know if it's truly needed.
--P
Posted by Howard Cihak on March 1, 2011 at 12:46 PM
Preston,
1. Brightness is determined by Spyder2 calibration.
2. Contrast ratio - same as 1 above (I don't alter either once set).
3. Spyder2 recommends calibration in a dark room; that's what I follow.
4. I don't know what soft proofing does or how to use the results.
5. Yes.
6. Yes.
7. Rendering intent? If you mean sRGB or ARGB, it's the latter.
8. Yes.
9. Yes.
Thanks for your interest. I await your next suggestions.
I just puchased the NEC MultiSync 2490WUXi2 to go with my new PC and am quite happy with it. They also offer it with the SpectraViewII Color Calibration Solution.
If your calibration software will allow it, set your brightness to 110 Cd/M^2 and your contrast ratio to 400:1. The native brightness and contrast ratio for LCD's is usually way to high. The values above a good starting points, but you'll have to experiment with these values to see what works best for you, assuming you can do so.
Soft proofing uses the profile for your paper and rendering intent from within Photo Shop to simulate how your print will look. Here's a tutorial that will help you. It's for CS2, but you should be able to figure it out if you have a newer version of PS. Soft proofing Tutorial. Soft proofing, although not perfect, will save you a lot of ink and paper.
Rendering intent is basically how the colors are shifted from the input color space to the destination color space and to deal with out of gamut colors. I use 'Relative Colormetric'. Others find that 'Perceptual' works well, too. I also use 'Black Point Compensation. Note that rendering intent is not the same as color space, such as Adobe RGB or sRGB. Rendering intent controls how the colors in a given color space (such as Adobe RGB) are printed.
--P
Posted by Howard Cihak on March 1, 2011 at 7:50 PM
Preston,
Spyder2 doesn't let you calibrate numerically; it gives you a tray of white and black values and you have to "set" them visually.
I recalibrated, but the end result is the same. I checked all the PS and printer settings as you suggested, but to no avail. Maybe I'm just not doing something right (although I had no problems with a previous LCD monitor before it gave up the ghost), and I think I'd pay an "expert" to visit me at my home to show me what I'm doing wrong and how to make it right.
So frustrating.
Posted by David Bostedo on March 1, 2011 at 10:48 PM
I've read that Dell has been known to switch to lower quality panels in their monitors that are nominally equipped with IPS panels when the IPS units were not available during production? I don't know if other makers are known to do the same.
That is true, and it's been on certain models. Some googling might reveal which ones this tends to happen with.
That said, one of the advantages of the higher end companies like NEC or Eizo is that not only do they only use the best panels, they screen and test them to make sure they're uniform across the entire panel. Even high end panels have been known to have some slight variation across the panel.
Posted by Howard Cihak on March 2, 2011 at 4:15 AM
Preston,
Which monitor calibration device(s) will allow you to set brightness and contrast using numerical values?
Howard - Does you calibration at least report the luminance at the end of calibrating? It will be a number like "150 cd/m^2". If so, while you can't have the tool do it, you could manually adjust the brightness and calibrate multiple times to try to get it to come in at 100-110 (assuming it's not already there).
It's not so much the actual device (photometer) but the software that does all the calculations and creates the profile. I use SpectraView II software. It's from NEC. You will have to determine if your photometer is compatible with it, though.
Here's a listing from an older thread...
Here's a list of colorimeters that are compatible with SpectraView...
If yours is not on this list, you'll need to obtain one of them and install it's driver.
Discussion
15 repliesAny suggestions? I prefer a 24 inch at a minimum.
Well, obviously, I'd love to spend a little as necessary, but if I've got to spend more, then so be it.
My frustration has boiled over because, while I can certainly compensate for brightness in the printing process, I'm finding that different degrees of brightness are required for different images of apparently similar levels of inherent image brightness. In other words, a consistent formula (in an action) won't work.
That could be monitor related, but I wouldn't pin point that. I have a bunch of questions actually Howard. But I'll start with these :
Are you always letting your monitor warm up before working on or printing images?
What is your monitor calibration flow and what brightness level is it set at during calibration?
If you've been through all that, and are still set on a new monitor, the low end for very good LCDs 24 inches and above starts at around $500 - $600, and goes up. You might be able to find something somewhat cheaper if need be, but it may not calibrate quite as well, or be quite as even across the whole panel, etc. It depends on how critical you get with your color.
The usual main recommendation is to make sure you at least get an IPS type panel. You can see a good list of available ones here.
One of the best regarded for the price is seems to be the NEC PA241-W for about $1000. That's getting into the high-end of course.
Yes, I always allow the monitor to warm up, and I calibrate it using a Spyder2. The brightness level is set according to the calibration instructions. In fact, if anything, I've leaned toward lowering the brightness a little more than the calibration instructions called for.
I've seen others recommend an IPS panel monitor. However, how can you tell if the monitor really is equipped with an IPS panel? I've read that Dell has been known to switch to lower quality panels in their monitors that are nominally equipped with IPS panels when the IPS units were not available during production? I don't know if other makers are known to do the same.
I think you need to look at your entire color management system and workflow, becasue, as David says, the issues you are having may point to something other than a monitor problem. With that in mind, I have some questions for you...
1. What screen brightness level are you using?
2. What contrast ratio are you using?
3. When you calibrate your monitor, do you do this in the same ambient (room) light that you use when printing?
4. Do you soft proof?
5. Are you using the correct paper profile?
6. Are you allowing Photo Shop to manage colors?
7. What rendering intent are you using?
8. Does the paper type in your printer driver agree with that set in Photo Shop?
9. If you are allowing Photo Shop to manage color, have you turned off color management in the printer driver?
Also, an action used to make prints may not be a good way to go. Each image has different requirements for brightness and contrast, so a 'one size fits all' concept may not work. Additionally, larger prints may require a slight boost in contrast compared with what is needed for a smaller print.
My counsel would be for you to work each image individually, learn how to soft proof and make hard copy proofs.
Color management is broad subject because there are many factors involved and they are all tied together. Analyzing your settings, workflow, hardware, profiles, etc. will likely show where the discontinuties lie.
I hope you get this sorted out. Don't spend money until you know if it's truly needed.
--P
1. Brightness is determined by Spyder2 calibration.
2. Contrast ratio - same as 1 above (I don't alter either once set).
3. Spyder2 recommends calibration in a dark room; that's what I follow.
4. I don't know what soft proofing does or how to use the results.
5. Yes.
6. Yes.
7. Rendering intent? If you mean sRGB or ARGB, it's the latter.
8. Yes.
9. Yes.
Thanks for your interest. I await your next suggestions.
Howard
Unfortunately, there are some space limitations at my desk, so I must regrettably decline.
If your calibration software will allow it, set your brightness to 110 Cd/M^2 and your contrast ratio to 400:1. The native brightness and contrast ratio for LCD's is usually way to high. The values above a good starting points, but you'll have to experiment with these values to see what works best for you, assuming you can do so.
Soft proofing uses the profile for your paper and rendering intent from within Photo Shop to simulate how your print will look. Here's a tutorial that will help you. It's for CS2, but you should be able to figure it out if you have a newer version of PS. Soft proofing Tutorial. Soft proofing, although not perfect, will save you a lot of ink and paper.
Rendering intent is basically how the colors are shifted from the input color space to the destination color space and to deal with out of gamut colors. I use 'Relative Colormetric'. Others find that 'Perceptual' works well, too. I also use 'Black Point Compensation. Note that rendering intent is not the same as color space, such as Adobe RGB or sRGB. Rendering intent controls how the colors in a given color space (such as Adobe RGB) are printed.
--P
Spyder2 doesn't let you calibrate numerically; it gives you a tray of white and black values and you have to "set" them visually.
I recalibrated, but the end result is the same. I checked all the PS and printer settings as you suggested, but to no avail. Maybe I'm just not doing something right (although I had no problems with a previous LCD monitor before it gave up the ghost), and I think I'd pay an "expert" to visit me at my home to show me what I'm doing wrong and how to make it right.
So frustrating.
That is true, and it's been on certain models. Some googling might reveal which ones this tends to happen with.
That said, one of the advantages of the higher end companies like NEC or Eizo is that not only do they only use the best panels, they screen and test them to make sure they're uniform across the entire panel. Even high end panels have been known to have some slight variation across the panel.
Which monitor calibration device(s) will allow you to set brightness and contrast using numerical values?
Howard
It's not so much the actual device (photometer) but the software that does all the calculations and creates the profile. I use SpectraView II software. It's from NEC. You will have to determine if your photometer is compatible with it, though.
Here's a listing from an older thread...
Here's a list of colorimeters that are compatible with SpectraView...
If yours is not on this list, you'll need to obtain one of them and install it's driver.
•GretagMacbeth Eye-One Display V1
•X-Rite/GretagMacbeth Eye-One Display V2
•X-Rite/GretagMacbeth Eye-One Monitor, Eye-One Pro.
•X-Rite ColorMunki.
•Monaco OptixXR (X-Rite DTP 94).
•ColorVision/Datacolor Spyder 2.
•Datacolor Spyder 3.
--P