As an ongoing conversation based on this thread, I would like to offer some more of my thoughts and create a dialog amoung the NPN staff on this (IMO) extremely important topic.
There is no doubt that "good photo critique" has been and will always remain a cornerstone of NPN's mission. Though it still meets a reasonable standard of excellence, I believe that the usefulness of photo critique on the site has generally declined. In fact, I regularly get email from members on this topic - most often when they receive a membership renewal notice.
Though we cannot not force anyone to become an expert critic, I believe that we as the NPN staff need to set the standard. As per my Blog link above, I suggest we all avoid the (IMO useless) "nice shot" comment and at least offer up reasons as to why we like or don't like the photo. I do not think that every critique needs to be an in-depth analysis of the photo, but we should with every comment illustrate the "minimum" of what we expect.
As part of this, it may not be a bad idea to occassionally respond with a "great critique!" comment. If you see a constructive, well thought-out critique to a photo, point it out. I think the more we raise the awareness of what constitutes good critique, the more of them we will see from the membership.
As always, I look forward to your thoughts and comments on this!
Jim: The thread you reference is a very intriguing one. It generated some great thoughts and brought out some frustrations from members. It is interesting that in the past week, I have seen an increase in the quality of comments in the Avian forum. They seem to be more in depth and have tended to be much more honest about things that people are seeing while reviewing the images. We'll see if that trend continues, or if it fades. I really like your thought of a "great critique" comment when a particularly thoughtful critique has been provided.
As part of this, it may not be a bad idea to occassionally respond with a "great critique!" comment. If you see a constructive, well thought-out critique to a photo, point it out. I think the more we raise the awareness of what constitutes good critique, the more of them we will see from the membership.
That's the best suggestion I've heard in a looooooong time!
In EPJ I've had the "problem" of people responding to the contents of the photo without any critique of the photography. Trouble is, when I ask reviewers for the additional info they don't respond. Your suggestion is the better idea, I think. Thanks!
Jim I accept your challenge to lead the way in critiquing images. I also like your idea about the "great critique" comment to those who have offered a great critique. I believe I have room for improvement in this area and I will work at giving better critiques.
I try to hit the key points in any critique I make, and also ask for more info from the OP if I need to. I also try to encourage the photographer.
I believe that a concise critique is more valuable than 'writing a book'. The nature of the internet breeds a 'I want content, and I want it now!' mindset. Folks won't hang long if they have to read a voluminous amount of text in order to dig up a few key points. If an OP wants a more in-depth critique or explanation, I suppose they could request one via e-mail from one us or another member.
I really like the idea that we acknowledge good and/or great critiques.
Ditto
I like the 'great critique' idea--i occasionally get one of those, and i can tell you that it helps keep me 'honest' when i hear that my efforts have not gone unnoticed.
I'm not sure i necessarily agree that there has been a decline in the critique, though--i think a good part of this may be due to the fact that as NPN grows, a larger percentage of members are new--and the newer members are more reluctant to offer critique. So, it may be just that the expectation is higher.
"Sadly I am now having second thoughts about renewing my membership, although Brad (Hill) in the past 6 weeks has made me stop and think again, due to his excellent feedback and comments, exactly what what I have wanted and what I had in the early days of joining NPN."
This person normally posts in one of the regional groups, where most of his complaint is directed. However, I think it is a sympton of an overall larger problem - people can go to any online forum and get the meaningless great-shot comments.
I think collectively we (as the NPN staff) do a good job with our own critiques. However, I think we need to focus more on raising the standard of critique offered by the membership. The best way to do so is to maintain the quality of our critiques and formally recognize good critiques offered by the membership.
Just thinking out loud, what if we had a "great critique" icon that (only) the gallery moderators could assign to a comment?
Posted by Varina Patel on March 3, 2011 at 7:13 AM
Just thinking out loud, what if we had a "great critique" icon that (only) the gallery moderators could assign to a comment?
I take you mean the moderator would actually edit a member's comment to add this icon?
I can't speak for all moderators of course, but I can tell you that I do not read every comment. Simply an impossible task in Landscape.
I can just about guarantee the someone will complain or comment "Why is their comment a great critique and not mine?" Or "Great, so not only do I have to worry about my image getting a critique, I have watch what I write now?" I can just hear it....
Personally, I think it's a great idea to acknowledge those who take the time to make a thoughtful critique, but I would prefer to just leave it up to the moderator. I also think that any member should be able to acknowledge a great critique.
Actually, the more that I think about this, the more I think this could actually stifle comments. As it is new members and beginners always say they are intimidated about making comments. Just when we're getting folks to step up their comments and critiques, we're going to critique the critique?
I'd say just let the mods acknowledge if they want to, but lets not make a big announcement about it.
Thinking more about this.... and this would probably require major coding changes, but what if any member could click on an icon within anyone's post that acknowledges a great critique? Kinda like with the social media stuff where you can click on "Like this." It would be anonymous and individuals could accumulate "great critiques"
Just like you see in many other forums, you can reach levels. And say after X number of "great critiques" you become a "Master"
I dunno, maybe that's taking it too far. And did I just reverse my own opinion?
Lon, I agree with your post about just leaving it up to the moderators to simply mention a good critique when they see it. I would prefer to stay away from members "voting" on photos or critiques.
Lon, I agree with your post about just leaving it up to the moderators to simply mention a good critique when they see it. I would prefer to stay away from members "voting" on photos or critiques.
Good idea. Voting may work on American Idol, but it would be disastrous here, I think.
I have been thinking about this before jumping in. I wonder if just a private email from the moderators to someone who provides good critiques with a kudos for their efforts is just a more subtle way to approach this. I agree a general broadcast of "Hey this is a good critique" may be good but may also inhibit some from even trying or may incite others.
Deviantart has a critique system with a vote button, but it is the artist who chooses if they think the critique is fair or not. If the "artist" says ney, the critique is not posted. I am not totally certain if we (NPN) want to go down the path of "vote buttons" for either moderators or members. Still thinking about the vote button or emoticon thing but does not look like a way we should go IMO.
Discussion
14 repliesThere is no doubt that "good photo critique" has been and will always remain a cornerstone of NPN's mission. Though it still meets a reasonable standard of excellence, I believe that the usefulness of photo critique on the site has generally declined. In fact, I regularly get email from members on this topic - most often when they receive a membership renewal notice.
Though we cannot not force anyone to become an expert critic, I believe that we as the NPN staff need to set the standard. As per my Blog link above, I suggest we all avoid the (IMO useless) "nice shot" comment and at least offer up reasons as to why we like or don't like the photo. I do not think that every critique needs to be an in-depth analysis of the photo, but we should with every comment illustrate the "minimum" of what we expect.
As part of this, it may not be a bad idea to occassionally respond with a "great critique!" comment. If you see a constructive, well thought-out critique to a photo, point it out. I think the more we raise the awareness of what constitutes good critique, the more of them we will see from the membership.
As always, I look forward to your thoughts and comments on this!
That's the best suggestion I've heard in a looooooong time!
In EPJ I've had the "problem" of people responding to the contents of the photo without any critique of the photography. Trouble is, when I ask reviewers for the additional info they don't respond. Your suggestion is the better idea, I think. Thanks!
I try to hit the key points in any critique I make, and also ask for more info from the OP if I need to. I also try to encourage the photographer.
I believe that a concise critique is more valuable than 'writing a book'. The nature of the internet breeds a 'I want content, and I want it now!' mindset. Folks won't hang long if they have to read a voluminous amount of text in order to dig up a few key points. If an OP wants a more in-depth critique or explanation, I suppose they could request one via e-mail from one us or another member.
I really like the idea that we acknowledge good and/or great critiques.
Kind Regards to All!
--P
I like the 'great critique' idea--i occasionally get one of those, and i can tell you that it helps keep me 'honest' when i hear that my efforts have not gone unnoticed.
I'm not sure i necessarily agree that there has been a decline in the critique, though--i think a good part of this may be due to the fact that as NPN grows, a larger percentage of members are new--and the newer members are more reluctant to offer critique. So, it may be just that the expectation is higher.
"Sadly I am now having second thoughts about renewing my membership, although Brad (Hill) in the past 6 weeks has made me stop and think again, due to his excellent feedback and comments, exactly what what I have wanted and what I had in the early days of joining NPN."
This person normally posts in one of the regional groups, where most of his complaint is directed. However, I think it is a sympton of an overall larger problem - people can go to any online forum and get the meaningless great-shot comments.
I think collectively we (as the NPN staff) do a good job with our own critiques. However, I think we need to focus more on raising the standard of critique offered by the membership. The best way to do so is to maintain the quality of our critiques and formally recognize good critiques offered by the membership.
Just thinking out loud, what if we had a "great critique" icon that (only) the gallery moderators could assign to a comment?
I take you mean the moderator would actually edit a member's comment to add this icon?
I can't speak for all moderators of course, but I can tell you that I do not read every comment. Simply an impossible task in Landscape.
I can just about guarantee the someone will complain or comment "Why is their comment a great critique and not mine?" Or "Great, so not only do I have to worry about my image getting a critique, I have watch what I write now?" I can just hear it....
Personally, I think it's a great idea to acknowledge those who take the time to make a thoughtful critique, but I would prefer to just leave it up to the moderator. I also think that any member should be able to acknowledge a great critique.
Actually, the more that I think about this, the more I think this could actually stifle comments. As it is new members and beginners always say they are intimidated about making comments. Just when we're getting folks to step up their comments and critiques, we're going to critique the critique?
I'd say just let the mods acknowledge if they want to, but lets not make a big announcement about it.
Just my thoughts. Don't mean to shoot it down....
Lon
Just like you see in many other forums, you can reach levels. And say after X number of "great critiques" you become a "Master"
I dunno, maybe that's taking it too far. And did I just reverse my own opinion?
Good idea. Voting may work on American Idol, but it would be disastrous here, I think.
--P
Deviantart has a critique system with a vote button, but it is the artist who chooses if they think the critique is fair or not. If the "artist" says ney, the critique is not posted. I am not totally certain if we (NPN) want to go down the path of "vote buttons" for either moderators or members. Still thinking about the vote button or emoticon thing but does not look like a way we should go IMO.