Posted by Russ Shugart on March 12, 2011 at 10:06 PM
(Rather than hijack the thread below I thought it better to start another thread. If this has been discussed recently my apologies.)
Very interesting topic to me. Marketing, something I have very little skill at, would like to be better, but just don't seem to make the effort. I've sold some prints over the years but damn few. I certainly would like to make more money at this.
I was in a gallery recently that I assume sells a lot of prints. While there was some really nice prints there, the stuff I see here day after day is as good and usually better on a consistent basis. I'm sure some of you guys, and gals, must be making money at this. I guess I sort of hope it will somehow spontaneously happen. RIGHT!
My kid has an interesting take on art. The stuff he creates he doesn't really even like show anyone even though I think it's REALLY good. He says he does it for himself and no one else and for him it's the act of creating it and not the end product. Absolute anti-marketing!
I'd be interested to hear from folks here, is it a struggle to market your stuff, a joy, a necessary evil, or what? Did starting to make money ruin the fun, or make it way more fun? Thanks in advance!
Russ
www.AlpineGalleria.com
Posted by Joe Rogers on March 12, 2011 at 10:55 PM
Russ, I'll answer from the only point of reference I have. I make my living as a full time portrait photogrpher with a studio. I had great mentors when I started out many years ago and they taught me, rightly, I might add, that photograhy as persued as a business was 90% marketing and 10% being an "artist." Learn to be a good business man, first, then work on your craft. If this doesnt appeal to you, then you need to keep photography a hobby. The sales will not spontaneously happen, I asure you. Fine art work is no different....just a little different approach. That does not mean you cannot love the creative side of what you do.....it drives most of us and keeps life enjoyable.
Joe Rogers
Russ, I have to agree 100% with what Joe said. As for me, I've always enjoyed marketing; however, I hate self-promotion as I think most of us do. I've had to find a way to market my product without trying to make myself look great. (When you hang out with people like the folks on this forum and see the incredible work, it is hard to think that you are something special.) I've found that it is possible to successfully market one's work without resorting to ugly self-promotion. Most people who are acquainted with my photography are more familiar with "Images of RMNP" than with me personally. I've generally tried to keep my name and photo to a minimum but have worked very hard to make my product known. I think I've generally been successful in this.
Effective marketing takes a lot of time and a very careful aim. A shotgun approach rarely works. One needs to clearly identify their unique market and then effectively target that market. For me, my market is the tourists who visit Estes Park, so wherever I can find them is where you will find me advertising. It doesn't pay to market on a regional or even national level for my products, or even outside of this very small area. I've found that even the local paper appeals to a different group than I am targeting. I put my time and energy into those areas where I will find tourists who have, are or will be visiting Rocky Mountain National Park. It is all about being in tune with their interests and needs and then providing them with what they are looking for. I view the whole marketing thing as a puzzle and find it very satisfying to solve various portions of it.
Marketing is essential and some people thrive on it and some people hate it. I wonder though if most people don't hate it because they think that marketing=self-promotion. It doesn't have to be that way. If anyone tries to get into photography as a business without the necessary business and marketing skills, then it is not likely that they will survive long. As Joe says business skills are more important than your photography skills. Anyway, that's a snapshot of my perspective on this.
Posted by Chris Rice on March 13, 2011 at 12:59 PM
Russ,
Glad you opened a new discourse. Like Erik, I used to own a small photo gallery which had First Fridays. I cannot for the life of me, self-promote, so I would have a hard time approaching gallery patrons and try to talk them up. The thing is, I loved to market the gallery in every way I could, distancing myself from it. It was clearly because I was separating myself from the artwork and the space - very much like what Erik is doing.
Now on the flipside, I did work for John Fielder at his gallery in Cherry Creek before he moved to Santa Fe. There, I had no problem selling his artwork - in fact, it was quite easy to approach a customer and qualify them - because I wasn't self-promoting.
Going back to the days of having a gallery space - the art certainly does not sell itself. The artwork is an extension of you, the artist. You have to sell YOU - and then the compensation will come later. Obviously there are exceptions to this, and they come in form of impulse buying, and we REALLY loved these types of art sales.
So, in closing, I will say that I had to close the gallery because yes, it was becoming work - and for me, photography is a hobby of mine, and the work aspect was ruining the fun. You must be ready for a delicate balance if you so choose to go down this path.
Hope you find your groove, Russ. You will, just remember what your end goals are.
Posted by Russ Shugart on March 13, 2011 at 1:04 PM
First let me say thanks for the thoughtful responses. Erik, thanks so much for the distinction between self promotion and marketing. That gives me much to think about. I think that self promotion gets ugly at it's best and that's what I need to separate from marketing in my head.
The way I eventually got into photography was from hiking and back country skiing way back in high school. About 15 years ago I started rock climbing pretty aggressively. After blowing out both knees and a shoulder I know I had to slow down. I couldn't possibly leave the alpine environment behind so photography seemed the best way to stay connected with the mystery and magic that is the mountains. I've had a few ideas about where a potential audience for my stuff might be found but I've just never pushed it to much/enough. I think aim is where I need to concentrate.
Erik, I can't imagine a more perfectly realized plan than yours. I've seen your work and it's amazing and where you are, up in Estes, couldn't be a better place. When (IF) I grow up I want to be you! Did you start into this with a passion for RMNP, nature photography or the desire to make a living up in Estes Park? Or some combination simultainiously?
Let me ask a chicken and egg question... For the folks making money at this, does the marketing/make money at this typically come first, or the passion for photography and then you realize "hey I should try to make some dough at this" come first? Obviously it takes a lot of both.
Russ
www.AlpineGalleria.com
Posted by Russ Shugart on March 13, 2011 at 1:18 PM
Chris, thanks for the reply. You bring up another thing that I worry about and has probably subconsciously kept me from marketing. Does going "pro" and actually making some money back from this threaten to diminish the purity of the artistic expression? I've been searching another site that I post to and read from time to time for a post about how people create their own style. There was an amazing, uncompromising post from a guy who essentially said "go shoot exactly what you like, not what a gallery owner likes or anyone else, not giving a wit what others think." I guess I sort of admire that determination but I can see how that's probably the last way to ever make any money.
Russ, it all hinges on what you want to do with photography. It appears that you want to make it a semi-livelihood, so don't let anything get in your way. Just remember that a 'pro' photographer is one that makes a living doing it, or at least using as supplemental income at a certain percentage. My advice to you is to start entering your work in shows and galleries; get your name out there. Just remember that you will be spending lots of money upfront to get moving. If you're going to do shows, you'll need a canopy, walls, bins, accesories, a merchant license, and framed and matted work!! It's quite the expense, but you have to rationalize all of it to make it a reality. For gallery shows, you may be taking a financial hit from the commissions. These are all things to consider.
In terms of shooting scenes for revenue purposes, I think Erik can shed more light on this subject. I know that back when I was actively shooting, I would have a purpose so that I could have a seasonal photo (or photos) for the gallery. So, I was thinking as a businessman rather than an artist - if you will - because I needed to remain somewhat sustainable.
I agree with that man's statement wholeheartedly, and I recommend doing this most of the time. Again, it comes down to that final goal in your photographic repertoire. Good discussion!!! I like it!!
Russ, I don't have a whole lot of time right at the moment so I'll keep this short. Perhaps I can get back to it again later today. I am one of those strange people who decided that after years of working in some very challenging situations that I wanted to find a way to get paid to spend time by myself in the beauty of nature. I've always had a passion for beauty and since I was young loved the mountains. We moved to Estes after many years working in developing nations. I did some research and decided that the best way to achieve my goal, without working for the park service which would be a loss of my independence, was to become a professional landscape photographer. I'd never done any photography so I simply plunged in and learned all I could beginning in Jan of 2004. About a year later I started selling at art shows. Over these years I've come to really love photography and especially the challenge of trying to communicate my thoughts and feelings through imagery. My philosophy is to shoot what I love, what excites me, what restores me. I refuse to shoot weddings, portraits, or even assignments in nature. I desire the freedom to pursue the things I love and am passionate about. Where the marketing comes in is not that I shoot for other people but rather that as I select what to print, I generally only print and display the images that I know that others like. I have a lengthy system for testing this. At the point of sale, it is not so much about me (as the photography part is) but about the customer. I therefore have many images that I love but don't display simply because I know that they won't sell and help me to cover my expenses. It's a funny game, trying to focus on self-expression in the photography end and the customer on the sale end but generally it seems to work. My feeling has been that if I can't do the things that restore me and the things I love, then I might as well do something else to make money rather than corrupt my love of expression through photography. So far, I've been able to find people who are willing to buy at least some of my self-expressions.
I have no illusions about my photography. It is still nowhere near where it needs to be and I'm often embarrassed to post here or on the NPN galleries, but I know that because of my marketing skills that I can probably still sell my images. I have NO interest in becoming a big name and having a following. All I really want to do is to get to the point where I can have other people run the gallery so I can get back to my goal of spending time in prayer and solitude out in the mountains. We're making real progress in that direction but that is probably still a couple years out. I've got to get back to packing. We're off to visit the grandparents in the UK tomorrow.
Posted by Russ Shugart on March 13, 2011 at 2:04 PM
Hey, if the shoe fits, Erik
If you ever make it back to this post, Id be curious as to your thoughts on how the "big names" have become mega-successful--even if you have no desire to become one you surely must have some thoughts on what was the key ingredient. They must be marketing to more than a targeted audience, no?
I am Canadian living in a summer tourist area and am working on ways of promoting my work. I sell both wholesale and retail and have few marketing skills but am somewhat known in my area as my wildlife images are published frequently in a regional lifestyle magazine.
I am always looking for ways to be able to sell my prints without having to resort to spending all my time in a gallery of my own.
I found a video on Luminous Landscapes the other day that I found extremely revealing. A local photographer explains, in an interview, just how he has gone about getting his "product" out there. This is a whole different approach to what has been discussed in the above posts and I found it very interesting. The parts showing how he prepares and image and the resulting canvas helped me in my own work.
The segment is the one titled "Collett" and the video is $16.95 to download. There are a few mini videos to give you a taste of the contents of all the segments. It was well worth the time and money to see how Andrew Collett works. Although not mentioned in the video he has a full time person doing the spraying, stretcher construction, stretching, frame construction and framing.
Stan, I'm finishing up a few last minute orders at the gallery before I head down to the airport so I'll try to give you a quick comment.
I think the big names are successful firstly because they set that as their goal. At that point it becomes very much about name recognition and appealing to a very high end clientel. Stan, you still have a targeted audience but that changes to a very wealthy demographic which are looking for the very best. This would not even be possible in a place like Estes as this is primarily a family town. It you wanted to go this route then I think you would want to begin in a very high-end prestigious location. Price your work way up on the high end and then design the space to communicate luxury. At this point it is all about presentation. Even if your photos aren't the best, if you use the highest quality framing, museum glass, top end lighting, luxurious gallery setting, etc, then you can give the impression of quality. Make your name prominent and have a well presented back-story about you as the artist and about your imagery to help people develop connections with it. You need to have a way of explaining why your images are the very best out there. You have to be able to talk about why your technique, equipment and production are amongst the best of the best. If you can dot your "i"s and cross your "t"s well enough to create the right impression and have chosen an exclusive location (play area of the uber-wealthy), then I think you can quickly climb the ladder. Remember art is about "perceived value" not an objective value so the impression you create about your work is almost more important than the work itself. At least that is my rough perspective on how to reach that other level. My conscience won't allow me to go there so I'll leave this area for others.
> Remember art is about "perceived value" not an objective value so the impression you create about your work
> is almost more important than the work itself.
And here I was all along thinking that its about the impression your work creates..."
Posted by Robert Park on March 15, 2011 at 2:02 AM
Erik
You are so right about setting goals and ultimate success. You must remember that photographers see things through a different filter than the non photographer world. Photographers generally think that the guys who do workshops and have extensive web blogs or sites are the top dogs however to the art buyer they don't get noticed. It comes down to focus and targeting your final audience. If you want photographer recognition you head one direction marketing to photographers if it is art print sales you head in another.
Unfortunately for many of us we just want to go out and shoot and screw the professional desk stuff which is ok if that is your goal.
Posted by Joe Rogers on March 15, 2011 at 11:30 AM
Erik pretty much summed it up in his last post. If you want to see a good example of the high end he was talking about check out Thomas Mangelson who has a gallery in Steamboat. It is one of about eight across the US.....you walk in the door and you just know that you are about to spend some REAL money. Now,is he as good a photographic artist as many on this forum... that's up to you to decide. But, he certainly understands marketing to his target audience extremely well.
Joe Rogers
Posted by Russ Shugart on March 15, 2011 at 11:08 PM
Wow, thanks so much for everyone's thoughtful comments. Definitely a lot to contemplate. On the subject of Thomas Mangelson, there is another photographer up in Vail in the village. His name slips my mind but his model seems to be exactly as described. High end gallery in a high dollar setting. Talk about serious up front cost, I can only imagine.
Chris mentioned impulse buying. I've heard more than once that this constitutes a lot of the sales that happen. I heard it from a guy who's work I really admire. He also said that he gets very little sales from his WEB site. That might speak to how easy or difficult purchasing from his WEB site is. Would you guys say it's worth while to have a professionally designed WEB site setup, or is a WEB site just a compliment to an overall "focused" strategy, or yes to both?
Discussion
16 repliesVery interesting topic to me. Marketing, something I have very little skill at, would like to be better, but just don't seem to make the effort. I've sold some prints over the years but damn few. I certainly would like to make more money at this.
I was in a gallery recently that I assume sells a lot of prints. While there was some really nice prints there, the stuff I see here day after day is as good and usually better on a consistent basis. I'm sure some of you guys, and gals, must be making money at this. I guess I sort of hope it will somehow spontaneously happen. RIGHT!
My kid has an interesting take on art. The stuff he creates he doesn't really even like show anyone even though I think it's REALLY good. He says he does it for himself and no one else and for him it's the act of creating it and not the end product. Absolute anti-marketing!
I'd be interested to hear from folks here, is it a struggle to market your stuff, a joy, a necessary evil, or what? Did starting to make money ruin the fun, or make it way more fun? Thanks in advance!
Russ
www.AlpineGalleria.com
Joe Rogers
Effective marketing takes a lot of time and a very careful aim. A shotgun approach rarely works. One needs to clearly identify their unique market and then effectively target that market. For me, my market is the tourists who visit Estes Park, so wherever I can find them is where you will find me advertising. It doesn't pay to market on a regional or even national level for my products, or even outside of this very small area. I've found that even the local paper appeals to a different group than I am targeting. I put my time and energy into those areas where I will find tourists who have, are or will be visiting Rocky Mountain National Park. It is all about being in tune with their interests and needs and then providing them with what they are looking for. I view the whole marketing thing as a puzzle and find it very satisfying to solve various portions of it.
Marketing is essential and some people thrive on it and some people hate it. I wonder though if most people don't hate it because they think that marketing=self-promotion. It doesn't have to be that way. If anyone tries to get into photography as a business without the necessary business and marketing skills, then it is not likely that they will survive long. As Joe says business skills are more important than your photography skills. Anyway, that's a snapshot of my perspective on this.
Glad you opened a new discourse. Like Erik, I used to own a small photo gallery which had First Fridays. I cannot for the life of me, self-promote, so I would have a hard time approaching gallery patrons and try to talk them up. The thing is, I loved to market the gallery in every way I could, distancing myself from it. It was clearly because I was separating myself from the artwork and the space - very much like what Erik is doing.
Now on the flipside, I did work for John Fielder at his gallery in Cherry Creek before he moved to Santa Fe. There, I had no problem selling his artwork - in fact, it was quite easy to approach a customer and qualify them - because I wasn't self-promoting.
Going back to the days of having a gallery space - the art certainly does not sell itself. The artwork is an extension of you, the artist. You have to sell YOU - and then the compensation will come later. Obviously there are exceptions to this, and they come in form of impulse buying, and we REALLY loved these types of art sales.
So, in closing, I will say that I had to close the gallery because yes, it was becoming work - and for me, photography is a hobby of mine, and the work aspect was ruining the fun. You must be ready for a delicate balance if you so choose to go down this path.
Hope you find your groove, Russ. You will, just remember what your end goals are.
The way I eventually got into photography was from hiking and back country skiing way back in high school. About 15 years ago I started rock climbing pretty aggressively. After blowing out both knees and a shoulder I know I had to slow down. I couldn't possibly leave the alpine environment behind so photography seemed the best way to stay connected with the mystery and magic that is the mountains. I've had a few ideas about where a potential audience for my stuff might be found but I've just never pushed it to much/enough. I think aim is where I need to concentrate.
Erik, I can't imagine a more perfectly realized plan than yours. I've seen your work and it's amazing and where you are, up in Estes, couldn't be a better place. When (IF) I grow up I want to be you! Did you start into this with a passion for RMNP, nature photography or the desire to make a living up in Estes Park? Or some combination simultainiously?
Let me ask a chicken and egg question... For the folks making money at this, does the marketing/make money at this typically come first, or the passion for photography and then you realize "hey I should try to make some dough at this" come first? Obviously it takes a lot of both.
Russ
www.AlpineGalleria.com
Russ
www.AlpineGalleria.com
In terms of shooting scenes for revenue purposes, I think Erik can shed more light on this subject. I know that back when I was actively shooting, I would have a purpose so that I could have a seasonal photo (or photos) for the gallery. So, I was thinking as a businessman rather than an artist - if you will - because I needed to remain somewhat sustainable.
I agree with that man's statement wholeheartedly, and I recommend doing this most of the time. Again, it comes down to that final goal in your photographic repertoire. Good discussion!!! I like it!!
I have no illusions about my photography. It is still nowhere near where it needs to be and I'm often embarrassed to post here or on the NPN galleries, but I know that because of my marketing skills that I can probably still sell my images. I have NO interest in becoming a big name and having a following. All I really want to do is to get to the point where I can have other people run the gallery so I can get back to my goal of spending time in prayer and solitude out in the mountains. We're making real progress in that direction but that is probably still a couple years out. I've got to get back to packing. We're off to visit the grandparents in the UK tomorrow.
Russ
www.AlpineGalleria.com
If you ever make it back to this post, Id be curious as to your thoughts on how the "big names" have become mega-successful--even if you have no desire to become one you surely must have some thoughts on what was the key ingredient. They must be marketing to more than a targeted audience, no?
I am always looking for ways to be able to sell my prints without having to resort to spending all my time in a gallery of my own.
I found a video on Luminous Landscapes the other day that I found extremely revealing. A local photographer explains, in an interview, just how he has gone about getting his "product" out there. This is a whole different approach to what has been discussed in the above posts and I found it very interesting. The parts showing how he prepares and image and the resulting canvas helped me in my own work.
The segment is the one titled "Collett" and the video is $16.95 to download. There are a few mini videos to give you a taste of the contents of all the segments. It was well worth the time and money to see how Andrew Collett works. Although not mentioned in the video he has a full time person doing the spraying, stretcher construction, stretching, frame construction and framing.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/video_journal/
I think the big names are successful firstly because they set that as their goal. At that point it becomes very much about name recognition and appealing to a very high end clientel. Stan, you still have a targeted audience but that changes to a very wealthy demographic which are looking for the very best. This would not even be possible in a place like Estes as this is primarily a family town. It you wanted to go this route then I think you would want to begin in a very high-end prestigious location. Price your work way up on the high end and then design the space to communicate luxury. At this point it is all about presentation. Even if your photos aren't the best, if you use the highest quality framing, museum glass, top end lighting, luxurious gallery setting, etc, then you can give the impression of quality. Make your name prominent and have a well presented back-story about you as the artist and about your imagery to help people develop connections with it. You need to have a way of explaining why your images are the very best out there. You have to be able to talk about why your technique, equipment and production are amongst the best of the best. If you can dot your "i"s and cross your "t"s well enough to create the right impression and have chosen an exclusive location (play area of the uber-wealthy), then I think you can quickly climb the ladder. Remember art is about "perceived value" not an objective value so the impression you create about your work is almost more important than the work itself. At least that is my rough perspective on how to reach that other level. My conscience won't allow me to go there so I'll leave this area for others.
> is almost more important than the work itself.
And here I was all along thinking that its about the impression your work creates..."
You are so right about setting goals and ultimate success. You must remember that photographers see things through a different filter than the non photographer world. Photographers generally think that the guys who do workshops and have extensive web blogs or sites are the top dogs however to the art buyer they don't get noticed. It comes down to focus and targeting your final audience. If you want photographer recognition you head one direction marketing to photographers if it is art print sales you head in another.
Unfortunately for many of us we just want to go out and shoot and screw the professional desk stuff which is ok if that is your goal.
Joe Rogers
Chris mentioned impulse buying. I've heard more than once that this constitutes a lot of the sales that happen. I heard it from a guy who's work I really admire. He also said that he gets very little sales from his WEB site. That might speak to how easy or difficult purchasing from his WEB site is. Would you guys say it's worth while to have a professionally designed WEB site setup, or is a WEB site just a compliment to an overall "focused" strategy, or yes to both?
Russ
www.AlpineGalleria.com