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I'm not 100% sure you're correct on this, but you're often better at this than I am. I'll do a little investigatin' myself. If true, that's worse than the sign on Hwy-9 south of Breckenridge that heralds a view of Mount Quandary Peak.

I just checked topozone (too lazy to pull out the quad maps from under the bed), Google Maps and Google Earth. As I suspected, it is indeed Mount Sopris you see from near McClure Pass. I know just the sign (one of them) you're referring to, the one right near the top of the steep uphill straightaway after the hairpin turn where that great stand of aspens is that Brent D. has shot so well, just before the highway makes a sharp left turn and meets the actual pass. There's a turn-out right there. Hawk BM might be in view somewhere in the general direction of Sopris (don't know, never heard of it), but it's definitely Sopris that's the behemoth of a mountain you see off in the distance. Keep in mind that you're referring to signs on the east side of McClure Pass, when in fact the signs are on the north side of the pass. Also, the peak in view from that turnout has two rather gentle summits, just like Sopris.

If someone can tell me how to share my Google Earth info (screenshot or link?), I'll post it. If nothing else, next time one or both of us can prove our case in the field, loser buys dinner?

Check it out...

Not to beat a dead horse, but the Roaring Fork Valley is overly proud of their big "Twelver," so they put up all those signs regardless of whether or not they're right next to the peak.

It appears our discrepancy is not in the view, but in the signs. I'm not sure which sign you're referring to after all. But you're right, you can NOT see Sopris from the actual pass, because there's a hillside in the way. But the mountain you see in the GE image, and the one you linked, is indeed Sopris, and can be seen from that last turnout.

I'll keep an eye out for signs down in the valley that point to the mountain in your photo, if for no better reason than that the Hawk BM shot you posted shows a MUCH more interesting mountain than Sopris!

Obviously, this requires a ROAD TRIP!!!! Darren, pick me up in a half hour!!!!

Just to add to the confusion, I did a search in our GNIS names database for Hawk Benchmark or any variant of the name in Colorado and came up empty. I would tend to guess Hawk Benchmark is definetely not an "official" name. Here's the public link to the GNIS database if you want to see if I missed anything.

http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=117:1:18396450421909052895::NO:::

Darren,

Thanks for posting the topo. This clears it up 100%. The name of the mountain is not Hawk Benchmark. What the sign is refering to is the actual benchmark the USGS placed on top of the mountain. A lot of the benchmarks do have names. In this case, it's named "Hawk". If you see the little triangle next to a name, the name is refering to the benchmark and not the feature. You'll see this on a lot of mountain tops. Therefore, the sign is totally correct.

Again, this mountain does not have an "official" name. As you stated, it goes by two totally different names on different maps. Yes, different communities/entities can name things as they see fit, but the name is not "official" as far as the government is concerned until it makes it into the GNIS database.

Hope this clears things up.

Oopps. My bad. Now that I went back and re-read the original post for the third time, I guess my old age is catching up. I thought the sign stated Hawk Benchmark. Yes, it is indeed wrong if it's pointing to this particular mountain. I'll definetely check it out the next time I'm passing through there.

As for the benchmark names, they were determined by the "old" field guys way back when they planted/mounted them. I've seen some pretty bizzare ones.

I'm more confused now about why I have 3 identical posts. Hmmmm

Maybe you could rotate and bend the sign to point it towards Sopris?

Tony - did you hit the refresh button a few times after posting your message? That's usually the cause. I'll knock out the duplicates.

Hey Darren, you're late!! I've been waiting by the door for an hour now!!!!

I know I've shown you that MapTech Pro program I have Darren, right? One cool thing on that is they show those red triangle benchmarks, and when you click on them, it shows you a TON of information about that spot. Things like the marker name, who placed it there and when, the roads used to get there, the elevation even descriptions of how to find it ("marker is placed on large rock, approx. 15 paces from property fencing......"). Kinda fun to look at sometimes. Catch me on IM tonight, and I'll look that one up for you!

Isn't an "x" the marking for a mine? Look at any quad map near Fairplay and you'll see a lot of 'em.

As for benchmarks, even though they don't represent the actual names of the peaks (or other places) they're found on, it's been pretty standard practice to refer to peaks with BMs as Such-and-such Benchmark. Sayres Benchmark, and Frasco BM, both in the Sawatch, come to mind. And if memory serves me right, what's called Coney Summit, which is the high point of the Colorado Trail, isn't an official name, but is actually Coney BM. The incredible Mr. Roach didn't start the trend, but he's certainly added his share of other "unofficial" names to Colorado's mountains that are becoming accepted, which is the first step to official namedome. "Crestolita," "Drift Peak," anyone?

Darren,

There are 2 different types of x's you'll find on a topo. If it's an even sized x with a number next to it, it's simply an elevation location. If it's a "more vertical" type of x, it represents a prospect. Here's the link to all the symbols you'll find on a topo map.

http://erg.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/symbols/

This mountain is called "Chair Mountain" as stated before by Darren in his post saying "Chair Mountain Overlook" Sopris is 180 Degrees to the left of the photo. It has two peaks depicting a chair. It is 11,702 feet tall. Robbie

Darren, here's an example of the info that MapTech shows for the benchmarks:

National Geodetic Survey, Retrieval Date = APRIL 30, 2002
***********************************************************************
DESIGNATION - 14255
PID - LL1347
STATE/COUNTY- CO/BOULDER
USGS QUAD - LONGS PEAK (1978)

*CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL
___________________________________________________________________
* NAD 83(1992)- 40 15 18.07528(N) 105 36 54.24085(W) ADJUSTED
* NAVD 88 - 4345. (meters) 14255. (feet) SCALED
___________________________________________________________________
LAPLACE CORR- -14.25 (seconds) DEFLEC99
GEOID HEIGHT- -12.22 (meters) GEOID99

HORZ ORDER - SECOND

.The horizontal coordinates were established by classical geodetic methods
.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in January 1993.

.The orthometric height was scaled from a topographic map.

.The Laplace correction was computed from DEFLEC99 derived deflections.

.The geoid height was determined by GEOID99.

; North East Units Scale Converg.
;SPC CO N - 407,142.467 904,612.899 MT 0.99995685 -0 04 27.7
;SPC CO N - 1,335,766.58 2,967,884.15 sFT 0.99995685 -0 04 27.7
;UTM 13 - 4,456,244.094 447,693.739 MT 0.99963368 -0 23 50.9

SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL

NAD 83(1986)- 40 15 18.06793(N) 105 36 54.23529(W) AD( ) 2
NAD 27 - 40 15 18.12100(N) 105 36 52.23000(W) AD( ) 2

.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control.
.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums.
.See file dsdata.txt to determine how the superseded data were derived.

_MARKER: DD = SURVEY DISK
_SETTING: 80 = SET IN A BOULDER
_STABILITY: C = MAY HOLD, BUT OF TYPE COMMONLY SUBJECT TO
+STABILITY: SURFACE MOTION

HISTORY - Date Condition Report By
HISTORY - 1939 MONUMENTED USGS

STATION DESCRIPTION

'DESCRIBED BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1939
'TO REACH FROM THE JUNCTION OF U.S. HIGHWAY 34 WITH STATE
'HIGHWAYS 66 AND 7 AT THE NORTH END OF ESTES PARK, TURN RIGHT
'ON HIGHWAY 66 AND 7 AND CONTINUE 0.4 MILE TO THEIR JUNCTION.
'TURN RIGHT AND FOLLOW STATE HIGHWAY 7 FOR 8.9 MILES TO GRADED
'ROAD, RIGHT, AND SIGNS, TRAIL TO LONGS PEAK AND HEWES-KIRKWOOD
'INN. TURN RIGHT ONTO GRADED ROAD AND GO 0.5 MILE TO THE
'HEWES-KIRKWOOD INN, WHERE HORSES MAY BE OBTAINED IF DESIRED.
'CONTINUE ON GRADED ROAD 0.7 MILES TO THE LONGS PEAK PUBLIC
'CAMP GROUND AND THE END OF TRUCK TRAVEL. PACK WESTERLY AND
'SOUTHWESTERLY ABOUT 6 MILES TO THE BOULDER FIELD SHELTER
'CABIN, WHICH IS THE END OF HORSE TRAVEL. THENCE CLIMB
'NORTHERLY FACE OF THE PEAK TO THE SUMMIT.

'A STANDARD
'USGS BENCH MARK IS EAST-NORTHEAST OF THE STATION ON TOP OF
'A LARGE BOULDER, WHICH IS THE HIGHEST POINT ON THE PEAK. THE
'ELEVATION, 14,255 FEET, IS STAMPED ON THIS MARK, AND IT IS
'ABOUT 5 FEET ABOVE THE STATION MARK.

What's your point, Darren!? Why are you making things difficult!?!?! Just ask your #@$^@#* question and get on with it - you're confusing everyone!

I have no idea what the answer to your question is, but I'll take a swag - the county? You could steal the sign and whoever comes after you is the owner. Might be less painful than the current approach. . Seriously, I'd check with the county. I just wish I knew which office in the county to start with...or even which county. . Maybe the transportation office in Pitkin or Gunnison County?

I found a phone number for the Pitkin County Road and Maintenance Department: (970) 920-5046. That's the number for the crew supervisor. Careful though...here's a picture of the crew, and it looks like most of them could take you out (except for that one guy in the khaki pants...who wears khaki's on a road crew?).

Here's a phone number for the Gunnison County Public Works Dept.: (970) 641-0044 You probably want the road and bridge crew. Marlene Crosby is in charge. I'd give her a ring!

What was the question again....

Rick, you really need to add the brick head bang emoticon to the arsenal if possible. I really don't care about this debate, but I like the emoticon.