Posted by Sarah Marino on June 20, 2011 at 11:15 PM
As I have mentioned in a previous post, there seems to be enough interest to continue discussions. I think we should start with bi-weekly topics, so here is the first one. I hope that you all will consider participating, especially since many of the previous discussions that Chris posted were quite interesting. Let's try to continue that. Onto the topic!
Almost every time someone posts a photo of an iconic or classic photography location in the NPN forums, someone says something like, "nice shot, but it is an icon..."
So, do you shoot icons? If so, do you feel like you are only creating derivative work or do you find it fulfilling for other reasons? If not, why not? Finally, have your feelings about shooting icons changed as you developed as a photographer?
Thanks for participating!
Posted by Jack Garrett on June 20, 2011 at 11:28 PM
Great topic Sarah. I do shoot icons..but I also try to find and shoot lesser known or unknown locations as well. If you shoot the San Juan's in fall, you most likely would be shooting icons with a few intimates as well. I find it fulfilling to get out there and see the great color, look for the right comp and conditions and enjoy being in those special places. If someone says "I've seen that before" I don't really care..it's MY CAPTURE!
On the other hand, I'm always looking for those off the beaten path places. We just returned from 9 days in Washington and Oregon and I got both Iconic and unknown places. I really fell in love with those unknown spots....nobody around and you knew you were coming away with something special. As I develop as a photographer I feel more if a desire to find new places and new opportunities.
My name is Bill and I photograph Icons. I'm sure there's a 12 step program somewhere for photographers like me but I don't really care. I promise you, the first time I visit any icon I'm going to photograph it. After that first "record" though, my philosophy changes and I start looking for something that will separate the next shots from what I got the first visit. When I was in Moab for the Spring Fling we went to DHP for sunrise and I didn't even take my cameras out of the bag. It was a glorious sunrise but the sky was ho hum and nothing special. Been there, done that. Also, I go through long periods of time where the "grand landscape" holds no interest fo rme. For the past couple of years I've been far more interested in looking for more intimate details or using a tele to extract comps out of a landscape.
Ultimately if someone says "I've seen that before" it's of no concern to me. Yes, you may have seen the Grand Canyon before but you weren't there at that moment to see the light that caught my attention or feel the excitement when I saw the image on the LCD or experience the anticipation of waiting to see MY image on the computer or the finished print. In short, I didn't create an image for you, I created it for me.
As I said, my name is Bill and I photograph icons.
It's sort of odd. I never tire of seeing nice photo variations of places like the bells, but have generally avoided icons. It seems to take away some of the adventure of the outdoor experience.
Once I can recall taking photos of was Zabriski Point in Death Valley. There were about 50 photographers waiting for sunrise, running around to get set up and yelling at others to get out of the scene.
I shoot icons as well. I've always thought "They are icons for a reason". Things like Maroon Bells fall reflection, Antelope Canyon sun beams, Yosemite's Tunnel View, etc, are spectacular and I wouldn't think of not going and seeing/shooting these places just because they have been done to death. It's not about trying to "one up" everyone else or anything like that. It's simply me experiencing these amazing places, and trying to get the best capture I can for me. Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Bill Brennan on June 21, 2011 at 9:09 AM
Yes, I shoot icons not to copy someone else's work but to make my own image of them. Occasionally, I will find a different angle or the light or colors will be different.
I shoot icons to deconstruct the good images on the ground; it's a conscious effort to teach myself. It does get a bit boring some times and there is a mob at many of them (for instance, I'm done with the Bells for a while after my last trip there) but there are few I've shot a more than once and can see the differences at each step while having other people's images as a guide. I also like looking at other people's (good) renderings of iconic views. There's something to be learned from them.
I love icons..after many years of studio work many miles away from what many of you consider icons, I am just getting around to seeing them for the first time. Places like Maroon Bells, Monument Valley, Mesa Arch, took my breath away the first time I saw them as did Yosemite, the Tetons, and the coastline of Oregon. I showed my wife a shot of The Wave and she thought it was the coolest thing she had ever seen and she is a fairly well traveled woman. The same shot makes many photographers go "ho-hum" These places are icons for a reason and sometimes we, as photogrpahers, forget that the public at large still find them fasinating. Joe Rogers
Posted by Howard Cihak on June 21, 2011 at 12:43 PM
Let me say, "Me, too," to Bill Brennan's comment. I do shoot the standard icon image, but then I try to find a somewhat different take on the scene. Sometimes I succeed, and sometimes I don't.
Trying to photograph icons wouldn't be a rewarding experience for the photographer in me, but experiencing those place and sharing that experience with someone else (typically my wife) is always fun.
Ironically, one of my favorite photography-related experiences did involve an icon - in '06, an early blizzard blocked access to Maroon Bells for all but a small handful of us who managed to get there ahead of the snow. Quite the experience to have the place to ourselves for an entire morning, covered in snow, dappled in color and very very quiet.
Yes a great topic indeed. Sarah, thank you again for starting the topics; sorry I just don't have it in me to be as active in the forum. I will gladly participate in the discussions as they are always compelling. This one is for sure a relevant and informative topic for nature photographers.
I have to say the photographic icons are the coolest things to see in person, because most likely you've seen them before in someone's photographic interpretation of the scene. I like to think of photo icons as a 'rite of passage' for a nature photographer. It forces you make a shot that's been done a million times in a unique composition and style. No two images are the same, so I'm all for shooting those locations. If you look at my website, you'll see many photo icons because they are relevant to the areas we live in.
But what is it that people don't like about the iconics? Is it the crowds? Are you shooting for yourself or for revenue purposes? If someone says 'I've seen that before', how does that make you feel? This is such an interesting and loaded topic, I hope this thread continues along nicely...
I have been fortunate enough to have a number of iconic locations all to myself, and this, my friends, is quite a remarkable experience. Begin the only person at Mesa Arch in Canyonlands is very rare, but it's happened to me twice (in winter), and let me tell you, its very magical. Another location that shocked me was Maroon Bells in the middle of July for the sunrise. I rolled into the parking lot at around 5:45am and not a soul was there. I set up my gear at the edge of lake, and watched in amazement as the sun unloaded onto the peaks. Still, nobody around. Then, I made the most ridiculous photograph hand-holding a Mamiya 645 about a foot from the water. It was probably the luckiest shot I've made my entire life. That was July 17, 2003. As I drove down the canyon, a bus full of people passed me on their way to the Lake. I smiled and kept driving, transfixed at the moment that had just unfolded in front of me. Thank you, Icon.
Here is that shot I made, because it means so much I thought I'd share it with you.
Posted by Rod Chandler on June 22, 2011 at 10:38 AM
Of course I shoot icons. They are icons for a reason; they are beautiful and meaningful in some way. The difference is my interpretation of the icon. Just today, Kane posted an incredibly interesting shot of the old mill. Icon? Of course, but I had never seen that perspective. Great topic.
Posted by Doug Koepsel on June 22, 2011 at 8:42 PM
Icons have their inherent beauty and thus I am drawn to them for that reason. I suppose one needs to be mentally prepared for the crowds, like I experienced at Oxbow Bend last fall. There are many icons I have not been to yet, but still have plans to eventually see them, like Maroon Bells, Zabriskie Point, Mesa Arch. If it affords the best angle and view, I am not concerned about using someone elses tripod holes. Maybe since I have only been shooting for a couple of years, icons are a bigger draw as I cannot say "been there, done that" yet.
Close to me is Cathedral Rock in Sedona. I am still trying for a nice sunset shot at Red Rock Crossing, but have also hiked up various ridges to get different angles and foregrounds than from the popular creek crossing.
I shoot icons without apology or embarrassment because:
1 - They are beautiful or interesting or unique - which is why they are icons in the first place.
2 - To non-photographers (friends, family, and photo buyers), photos of icons are simply "pretty pictures" and they want to see more of them.
3 - They are great aids in photo critique. So many people have shot them, and shot them slightly differently each time, that I can compare their shots to mine to see how others have managed to keep out objects that annoyed me about my own shot and what they included that I think might make my shot better. That type of comparison has always been a great learning tool for me.
4 - Icons help with trip planning. Think about Mesa Arch. By determining whether you want the sun coming up over the LaSalles (on the left) or the flatlands (on the right), you can determine what month to plan your trip and which area to stake out in the predawn darkness while you wait with dozens of pushy tourists with point-and-shoot cameras.
5 - It gives me an appreciation of what other photographers went through to get the shot. Is subject something you just walk up to and shoot (Fire Roof Ruin)?; does the shot only occur for a day or two every year (particular Solstice glow in The Narrows)?; are the conditions right only a few days per month (Milky Way shots)?; are the difficulties in getting the shot caused by people (Mesa Arch)?; are the difficulties caused by nature/weather (wind screwing up the reflection on Maroon Lake); or do the problems lie with both man and nature (The Wave - permit lottery and hiking in harsh, un-sheltered desert all day)?
Hell, after writing this, I can't think or any reason NOT to shoot icons!
Posted by Sarah Marino on June 23, 2011 at 11:33 PM
Thanks, everyone, for participating! A couple of things from the comments above really resonated with me. First, Bill Bean's statement: "In short, I didn't create an image for you, I created it for me." This was my main thought in posting this topic and in thinking about it for myself. If photographing an icon is fulfilling for me, that is more than enough. I also think CAZ’s point about the educational aspect is important. Seeing how other photographers interpret a scene is always interesting and often helps me learn something. Finally, Doug, Chris, and others make good points about the experience of seeing and photographing an icon. Icons are icons for good reason.
I am consciously trying to get off the beaten path a bit more because I think doing so will make me a better photographer and will help build a stronger portfolio over time. This certainly does not mean that I am not going to shoot icons, as I most certainly will (the Subway is high on my list for my fall SW trip, for example). I have also enjoyed photographing a few icons and coming away with some unique perspectives. I just posted a photo of Sunwapta Falls from Jasper National Park in the Landscape forum. This is certainly an icon of the Canadian Rockies, but in a search of Google and Flickr, I did not see a single image with a similar composition. Finding something unique (that is somewhat compelling to others, based on the comments) is quite fulfilling.
Two more thoughts – many places that photographers consider icons are not icons to nearly anyone else (Badwater Basin, for example). Sharing my love of a place like that might be boring to the photographer who has seen 500 Badwater shots, but sharing it with friends and family who have never been to Death Valley and then hearing about them express an interest in seeing it for themselves is always gratifying.
Finally, I will be fine if I never photograph in an atmosphere like Oxbow Bend ever again. I was there last fall, along with at least 100 other photographers and one very loud workshop instructor who was yelling instructions at his large class. Icon or not, the level of noise, judgmental discussions about other photographers and their gear, and trampling of the area was completely unappealing. For this reason, I will probably never make it to Maroon Bells in the fall or some of the iconic locations in a place like Yosemite. I prefer my icons to at least offer some measure of solitude, which as Chris mentioned, is certainly possible with good timing and a little luck (or bad weather that drives everyone else away).
Posted by Bob Falcone on June 24, 2011 at 12:43 AM
When I look at my photo of an icon, I always tell myself "there are many like it, but this shot is MINE".
The excitement I feel when I see an icon for the first time is immeasurable. I want to record that moment, so I shoot it. I admit that my first few shots are probably not much different than any other photo of the icon...but after that, it's time to do something a little different...different angle, different time of day, etc etc.
Sarah, don't give up on Oxbow Bend just yet. It's great entertainment when a grizzly comes tearing down that hill to the east, runs across the road, bounds past tourists scared sh*tless (and rightly so), swims across the waterway, and disappears into the woods - all before anyone recovers their wits enough to pull out a camera. Well, it's funny if you're far enough away from the beast and no one gets eaten during the episode anyway.
Same thing (and more common) is when a moose swims across the water toward the tourists.
I love icons! What i dont understand is the weird herd mentality of the photogs who line up at sunrise.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on June 26, 2011 at 11:21 AM
If the light is appealing, I certainly wouldn't avoid the image because it's considered an icon.
Also, what we as photographers consider overshot localities are certainly not recognized as such by the vast majority of the population. Just the other day on the Fred Miranda Landscape forum, someone posted a nice sunrise shot of Dream Lake/Hallet Peak. Fred Miranda has a lot of west coast photographers and they responded as if this was a newly discovered location!
Discussion
20 repliesAlmost every time someone posts a photo of an iconic or classic photography location in the NPN forums, someone says something like, "nice shot, but it is an icon..."
So, do you shoot icons? If so, do you feel like you are only creating derivative work or do you find it fulfilling for other reasons? If not, why not? Finally, have your feelings about shooting icons changed as you developed as a photographer?
Thanks for participating!
On the other hand, I'm always looking for those off the beaten path places. We just returned from 9 days in Washington and Oregon and I got both Iconic and unknown places. I really fell in love with those unknown spots....nobody around and you knew you were coming away with something special. As I develop as a photographer I feel more if a desire to find new places and new opportunities.
Ultimately if someone says "I've seen that before" it's of no concern to me. Yes, you may have seen the Grand Canyon before but you weren't there at that moment to see the light that caught my attention or feel the excitement when I saw the image on the LCD or experience the anticipation of waiting to see MY image on the computer or the finished print. In short, I didn't create an image for you, I created it for me.
As I said, my name is Bill and I photograph icons.
Once I can recall taking photos of was Zabriski Point in Death Valley. There were about 50 photographers waiting for sunrise, running around to get set up and yelling at others to get out of the scene.
Bill Brennan
Ironically, one of my favorite photography-related experiences did involve an icon - in '06, an early blizzard blocked access to Maroon Bells for all but a small handful of us who managed to get there ahead of the snow. Quite the experience to have the place to ourselves for an entire morning, covered in snow, dappled in color and very very quiet.
I have to say the photographic icons are the coolest things to see in person, because most likely you've seen them before in someone's photographic interpretation of the scene. I like to think of photo icons as a 'rite of passage' for a nature photographer. It forces you make a shot that's been done a million times in a unique composition and style. No two images are the same, so I'm all for shooting those locations. If you look at my website, you'll see many photo icons because they are relevant to the areas we live in.
But what is it that people don't like about the iconics? Is it the crowds? Are you shooting for yourself or for revenue purposes? If someone says 'I've seen that before', how does that make you feel? This is such an interesting and loaded topic, I hope this thread continues along nicely...
I have been fortunate enough to have a number of iconic locations all to myself, and this, my friends, is quite a remarkable experience. Begin the only person at Mesa Arch in Canyonlands is very rare, but it's happened to me twice (in winter), and let me tell you, its very magical. Another location that shocked me was Maroon Bells in the middle of July for the sunrise. I rolled into the parking lot at around 5:45am and not a soul was there. I set up my gear at the edge of lake, and watched in amazement as the sun unloaded onto the peaks. Still, nobody around. Then, I made the most ridiculous photograph hand-holding a Mamiya 645 about a foot from the water. It was probably the luckiest shot I've made my entire life. That was July 17, 2003. As I drove down the canyon, a bus full of people passed me on their way to the Lake. I smiled and kept driving, transfixed at the moment that had just unfolded in front of me. Thank you, Icon.
Here is that shot I made, because it means so much I thought I'd share it with you.
Close to me is Cathedral Rock in Sedona. I am still trying for a nice sunset shot at Red Rock Crossing, but have also hiked up various ridges to get different angles and foregrounds than from the popular creek crossing.
1 - They are beautiful or interesting or unique - which is why they are icons in the first place.
2 - To non-photographers (friends, family, and photo buyers), photos of icons are simply "pretty pictures" and they want to see more of them.
3 - They are great aids in photo critique. So many people have shot them, and shot them slightly differently each time, that I can compare their shots to mine to see how others have managed to keep out objects that annoyed me about my own shot and what they included that I think might make my shot better. That type of comparison has always been a great learning tool for me.
4 - Icons help with trip planning. Think about Mesa Arch. By determining whether you want the sun coming up over the LaSalles (on the left) or the flatlands (on the right), you can determine what month to plan your trip and which area to stake out in the predawn darkness while you wait with dozens of pushy tourists with point-and-shoot cameras.
5 - It gives me an appreciation of what other photographers went through to get the shot. Is subject something you just walk up to and shoot (Fire Roof Ruin)?; does the shot only occur for a day or two every year (particular Solstice glow in The Narrows)?; are the conditions right only a few days per month (Milky Way shots)?; are the difficulties in getting the shot caused by people (Mesa Arch)?; are the difficulties caused by nature/weather (wind screwing up the reflection on Maroon Lake); or do the problems lie with both man and nature (The Wave - permit lottery and hiking in harsh, un-sheltered desert all day)?
Hell, after writing this, I can't think or any reason NOT to shoot icons!
I am consciously trying to get off the beaten path a bit more because I think doing so will make me a better photographer and will help build a stronger portfolio over time. This certainly does not mean that I am not going to shoot icons, as I most certainly will (the Subway is high on my list for my fall SW trip, for example). I have also enjoyed photographing a few icons and coming away with some unique perspectives. I just posted a photo of Sunwapta Falls from Jasper National Park in the Landscape forum. This is certainly an icon of the Canadian Rockies, but in a search of Google and Flickr, I did not see a single image with a similar composition. Finding something unique (that is somewhat compelling to others, based on the comments) is quite fulfilling.
Two more thoughts – many places that photographers consider icons are not icons to nearly anyone else (Badwater Basin, for example). Sharing my love of a place like that might be boring to the photographer who has seen 500 Badwater shots, but sharing it with friends and family who have never been to Death Valley and then hearing about them express an interest in seeing it for themselves is always gratifying.
Finally, I will be fine if I never photograph in an atmosphere like Oxbow Bend ever again. I was there last fall, along with at least 100 other photographers and one very loud workshop instructor who was yelling instructions at his large class. Icon or not, the level of noise, judgmental discussions about other photographers and their gear, and trampling of the area was completely unappealing. For this reason, I will probably never make it to Maroon Bells in the fall or some of the iconic locations in a place like Yosemite. I prefer my icons to at least offer some measure of solitude, which as Chris mentioned, is certainly possible with good timing and a little luck (or bad weather that drives everyone else away).
When I look at my photo of an icon, I always tell myself "there are many like it, but this shot is MINE".
The excitement I feel when I see an icon for the first time is immeasurable. I want to record that moment, so I shoot it. I admit that my first few shots are probably not much different than any other photo of the icon...but after that, it's time to do something a little different...different angle, different time of day, etc etc.
Same thing (and more common) is when a moose swims across the water toward the tourists.
Also, what we as photographers consider overshot localities are certainly not recognized as such by the vast majority of the population. Just the other day on the Fred Miranda Landscape forum, someone posted a nice sunrise shot of Dream Lake/Hallet Peak. Fred Miranda has a lot of west coast photographers and they responded as if this was a newly discovered location!