In this thread R.L. Potts said, "If you want a negative critique, you should probably say so." I don't know where we can say so, because if a post isn't looked at for whatever reason it won't help to say it when we post. So -- I'm saying it here.
Yesterday I made this post in Photo Art and this post in Wildlife, and if a negative critique is what you would give them, then I'm soliciting that.
He also said, "Do negative critiques help? Yes and no. Ten people see things 10 different ways. You need to know enough to begin with to critique the critiques. Persevere and have a little faith in your own vision." I am able to do that now, but I still am looking for what is NOT appealing as much as I am looking for what is appealing. The more I know about what's not appealing the less time I'll waste.
This may sound naive, but isn't asking for a "negative" critique a little redundant? My dictionary defines critique as:
"...a detailed analysis and assessment of something"
So, when applied to an image, I think it's inherent in the term that a critique should point out both the perceived strengths AND weaknesses - there should be no need to ask for the negatives. I can see asking for "honest" critiques, but I think asking for "negative" critiques is a bit unnecessary (and a little over the top).
Hi, Brad. I think that part of the conversation in the other thread was about the fact that people don't comment on images they don't feel have potential, and so "if you want a negative critique you should say so." But I do see what you're saying.
Perhaps the underlying problem, then, is actually the LACK of commenting by some NPN members? If the total number of comments went up, presumably then even images that "lack potential" would draw a few more comments.
And, on the other side of the coin, I commonly see images posted without the poster REALLY asking for feedback - normally when someone is posting an image they already have a feel for an image's strengths or weaknesses and it could help if they asked for specific feedback on an aspect of the image they suspect of being weak they'd "invite" the negative feedback you refer to.
Again, just my 2 cents worth (and, with my TWO 2-cents-worth comments, I can still get change from a nickel!).
Brad
Posted by Jim Bullard on August 8, 2011 at 9:42 AM
I guilty of "not commenting enough". Truth is I get busy with my own stuff and chores and don't even look at the forums that often. I've just posted a critique of Barbara's photo which I hope is helpful and will try to be more 'active' in the future.
Jim, your critique was awesome. Thank you so much. Just what you and Rodney said gives me so much to grow on.
Posted by Carol Nichols on August 8, 2011 at 11:12 AM
I think part of the problem is that there are too many nice comments and not enough serious critiques. This struck me when seeing a recent post from a regular in one of the forums that was not sharp and totally lacked detail. There must have been at least 10 comments, none of which said anything was wrong with the photo. Sadly, after reading all of these other comments I couldn't get myself to give a critical critique either. People who are commenting should stop worrying about hurting the poster's feelings and realize that, like Barbara, they probably want their photo to be critiqued so they can learn how to do better the next time.
Yes, Anil. That is a very good question. The NPN crowd is a very different group than the world at large and there is a lot of variation even within the group.
In addition, Barbara, time spent is not time wasted. It is part of paying your dues. And if you scrimp on time, you will miss opportunities.
Anil and R.L., this is my answer to Anil's question and my reason for this thread, and the variation within NPN is a big part of that answer.
I have two image categories in my mind and on my computer.
Category A is images that appeal to me but to no one else that I know of who sees them.
Category B is images that appeal to me and to some other people who see them.
While I capture images that I am pretty sure will be in Category A, just because I want them and like them, my preference is to capture images that will be in Category B. Note, though, that the images in both categories appeal to me, so that's not an issue.
If I post an image on NPN, I do so because I think it would be in Category B. If I then have 50+ views with no comments, I realize that the image apparently doesn't appeal to anyone but me, and I would really like to know why. If I knew that it wouldn't be appealing to anyone, I wouldn't have posted it on NPN to begin with.
And that's where the variation comes in. If 50+ people view an image, I would think that pretty much crosses at least some of the variation of NPN members, and if no one says anything, that tells me I missed the boat, but I have no idea why I missed the boat unless someone tells me.
Please tell me if that is understandable.
R.L., thanks for the comment on time spent not being time wasted. I definitely do not want to scrimp on time.
Barbara, I think everything you're saying makes perfect sense. It really helps when folks explain why they don't like an image, or (perhaps more frequently) explain why they don't like one or two aspects of an image. I personally don't like negative feedback (who does?) but I've learned quite a bit from it.
The bottom line, for better or worse, is that folks on NPN are often reluctant to leave negative feedback so they typically opt not to leave any at all or they just say positive things. I don't think there's any real solution to this. I think you should be very express about your desire for all feedback when you post an image . . . that should help folks move past their reluctance to post their thoughts. But beyond that, I personally just accept NPN for all of its strengths and weaknesses as a forum for critiques. I find it quite valuable but it's certainly not perfect. We might want more candor, or more comments, or both . . . or even something different entirely . . . but in the end, of course, the culture of NPN generally tends toward positive, supportive feedback rather than criticism.
All of this aside, the feedback on NPN is only one gauge of whether an image is successful. You have to remain your own strongest critic and avoid being unduly swayed by the reception--good or bad--that an image received on NPN. I have to remind myself of that from time to time when I start thinking of my images in terms of the number of comments they received.
Posted by Richard Ditch on August 8, 2011 at 5:19 PM
At some point you have to trust your own vision and stop trying to please everyone else.
The only real question I think is: when do you reach that point? I doubt if it is possible to reach universal agreement on when that might occur.
At minimum I think you need to master the technical side of photography: getting a sharp properly exposed image (assuming that you don't want to be limited to "photo art"). Control of image noise, white balance, and overall contrast fall into the fundamentals of technique as well. You can get lots of feedback about those aspects of your work here on NPN and learn how to improve from NPN and from books, magazines, and other web sties.
Beyond the technical aspects though we are moving into much more subjective territory. You can master the traditional "rules" of composition, and experiment by violating those "rules." Just realize that most of the feedback you will get at NPN and other sites will reinforce the rules. In spite of this you need to develop your own guidelines for composition as part of your evolving vision.
I think the real breakthrough comes with an awareness of light as that is at the heart of photography. When you couple good light with personal contact with your subject you will be able to create moving and memorable images. At this point you have mostly moved beyond critiques - people will look at your images for pleasure and for inspiration rather than searching for defects that need improvement.
Finally, I don't think you can rush this evolution. You can practice the mechanics to master the technical aspects. You can experiment with composition to figure out what works for you. You can learn to pay attention to the light. But this all takes time.
I still haven't figured out why the reluctance to say anything that could be construed as 'negative'. I think part of it might be because so many of us were raised with the philosophy of "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all!" Personally I prefer the adage, "be cruel to be kind" But I can sympathize with those who are reluctant to offer critique for fear of bad karma overtaking them
I must say though, Ive seen many many internet forums where the members spend all their time insulting each other and spewing constant venom. Thank God NPN is the exact opposite, where everyone respects everyone else regardless of political affiliation or whatever. If keeping the peace means trading a few more 'negative comments' (which always carry the risk of being misinterpreted or over-interpreted by a sensitive ego) then I'll gladly deal with lots of purely positive remarks.
Discussion
12 repliesYesterday I made this post in Photo Art and this post in Wildlife, and if a negative critique is what you would give them, then I'm soliciting that.
He also said, "Do negative critiques help? Yes and no. Ten people see things 10 different ways. You need to know enough to begin with to critique the critiques. Persevere and have a little faith in your own vision." I am able to do that now, but I still am looking for what is NOT appealing as much as I am looking for what is appealing. The more I know about what's not appealing the less time I'll waste.
Thank you.
This may sound naive, but isn't asking for a "negative" critique a little redundant? My dictionary defines critique as:
"...a detailed analysis and assessment of something"
So, when applied to an image, I think it's inherent in the term that a critique should point out both the perceived strengths AND weaknesses - there should be no need to ask for the negatives. I can see asking for "honest" critiques, but I think asking for "negative" critiques is a bit unnecessary (and a little over the top).
Just my 2 cents...
Brad
Perhaps the underlying problem, then, is actually the LACK of commenting by some NPN members? If the total number of comments went up, presumably then even images that "lack potential" would draw a few more comments.
And, on the other side of the coin, I commonly see images posted without the poster REALLY asking for feedback - normally when someone is posting an image they already have a feel for an image's strengths or weaknesses and it could help if they asked for specific feedback on an aspect of the image they suspect of being weak they'd "invite" the negative feedback you refer to.
Again, just my 2 cents worth (and, with my TWO 2-cents-worth comments, I can still get change from a nickel!).
Brad
I do not understand what you meant by the following.
> ...The more I know about what's not appealing the less time I'll waste...
Here are a couple of questions for you. Appealing to who? And, why?
Regards.
In addition, Barbara, time spent is not time wasted. It is part of paying your dues. And if you scrimp on time, you will miss opportunities.
I have two image categories in my mind and on my computer.
Category A is images that appeal to me but to no one else that I know of who sees them.
Category B is images that appeal to me and to some other people who see them.
While I capture images that I am pretty sure will be in Category A, just because I want them and like them, my preference is to capture images that will be in Category B. Note, though, that the images in both categories appeal to me, so that's not an issue.
If I post an image on NPN, I do so because I think it would be in Category B. If I then have 50+ views with no comments, I realize that the image apparently doesn't appeal to anyone but me, and I would really like to know why. If I knew that it wouldn't be appealing to anyone, I wouldn't have posted it on NPN to begin with.
And that's where the variation comes in. If 50+ people view an image, I would think that pretty much crosses at least some of the variation of NPN members, and if no one says anything, that tells me I missed the boat, but I have no idea why I missed the boat unless someone tells me.
Please tell me if that is understandable.
R.L., thanks for the comment on time spent not being time wasted. I definitely do not want to scrimp on time.
The bottom line, for better or worse, is that folks on NPN are often reluctant to leave negative feedback so they typically opt not to leave any at all or they just say positive things. I don't think there's any real solution to this. I think you should be very express about your desire for all feedback when you post an image . . . that should help folks move past their reluctance to post their thoughts. But beyond that, I personally just accept NPN for all of its strengths and weaknesses as a forum for critiques. I find it quite valuable but it's certainly not perfect. We might want more candor, or more comments, or both . . . or even something different entirely . . . but in the end, of course, the culture of NPN generally tends toward positive, supportive feedback rather than criticism.
All of this aside, the feedback on NPN is only one gauge of whether an image is successful. You have to remain your own strongest critic and avoid being unduly swayed by the reception--good or bad--that an image received on NPN. I have to remind myself of that from time to time when I start thinking of my images in terms of the number of comments they received.
The only real question I think is: when do you reach that point? I doubt if it is possible to reach universal agreement on when that might occur.
At minimum I think you need to master the technical side of photography: getting a sharp properly exposed image (assuming that you don't want to be limited to "photo art"). Control of image noise, white balance, and overall contrast fall into the fundamentals of technique as well. You can get lots of feedback about those aspects of your work here on NPN and learn how to improve from NPN and from books, magazines, and other web sties.
Beyond the technical aspects though we are moving into much more subjective territory. You can master the traditional "rules" of composition, and experiment by violating those "rules." Just realize that most of the feedback you will get at NPN and other sites will reinforce the rules. In spite of this you need to develop your own guidelines for composition as part of your evolving vision.
I think the real breakthrough comes with an awareness of light as that is at the heart of photography. When you couple good light with personal contact with your subject you will be able to create moving and memorable images. At this point you have mostly moved beyond critiques - people will look at your images for pleasure and for inspiration rather than searching for defects that need improvement.
Finally, I don't think you can rush this evolution. You can practice the mechanics to master the technical aspects. You can experiment with composition to figure out what works for you. You can learn to pay attention to the light. But this all takes time.
I still haven't figured out why the reluctance to say anything that could be construed as 'negative'. I think part of it might be because so many of us were raised with the philosophy of "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all!" Personally I prefer the adage, "be cruel to be kind"
I must say though, Ive seen many many internet forums where the members spend all their time insulting each other and spewing constant venom. Thank God NPN is the exact opposite, where everyone respects everyone else regardless of political affiliation or whatever. If keeping the peace means trading a few more 'negative comments' (which always carry the risk of being misinterpreted or over-interpreted by a sensitive ego) then I'll gladly deal with lots of purely positive remarks.