Posted by Charlie Baugh on August 15, 2011 at 9:51 PM
"Mind you I have shots that I will not post to NPN simply because the M&N gallery is far less popular and get less activity and feedback than the Landscape one. It seems a pity that a superb landscape with say an errant fence post or other minor man-made intrusion results in a kind of second rate treatment."
I think more people should visit, comment, and post in M&N. The gallery is far from second rate and it is a real shame a lot of people on NPN have that perception.
The above was posted by the moderator of "Man and Nature" and it brings me to wonder if many here wouldn't be happy posting more and commenting more in a gallery that has guidlines, but does not hammer their posters with, ever so strict, dicipline for minor infringements of what are "guidelines" (note: not rules).
I am going to post a photo that was "booted" out of landscape gallery for what I feel was an ever so small infringement of a """guideline""".
Please, I hope others will consider posting the images that you have had rejected by landscape gallery and let us judge the degree of non-compliance with the guideline it really was.
Charlie
Posted by Luke Ormand on August 15, 2011 at 11:18 PM
It seems evident you have issues with NPN and the way their galleries are structured. While I think NPN is a great place for open discussion and for the sharing of opinions, I'm not sure what your goal here is. It seems as though the majority of NPN members have no issues playing by the rules (or "guidelines" as you indicate) and if you have serious concerns perhaps it would be better to voice them directly to the sites owner?
To humor you, I dont' see an issue with photos being "kicked out" of landscape and being moved to M&N for things like a native american horse corral. The photo depicts something man made in a natural scene, exactly what M&N is for. I actually like the fact that the mods are "strict" because it's an extremely easy standard to play by - at what point does it become arbitrary? Is one fence post OK, but two fence posts aren't? Is it alright if there is a dirt road but not ok for a paved road? The easiest way to make a decision is to "boot" anything that has an element of man. I hope that you can get past this issue and be able to enjoy NPN without becoming stressed or upset every time you post an image because that defeats the purpose of this wonderful site.
It’s always good to question authority and evolution is also a good thing.
In this case, I like the rules and how they are enforced.
Man and Nature sees less traffic and that’s just the way it is. I would not like to see the rules changed just because some folks want their work to get more views and/or comments.
Posted by Brian Gatlin on August 15, 2011 at 11:42 PM
well said, Luke. I couldn't agree more. I think the guidelines are very straightforward and easy to follow. And it's the mod's job (among everything else) to make sure they're followed.
As for people not posting a M&N shot in the M&N gallery because it gets fewer views and comments, it sounds like a vicious cycle--if those people would post and participate, problem solved.
I'd like to thank all the moderators here for the work they do. Nate and Keith in Avian, which is the only place I really post, and all the others along with Jim and the rest of the crew are doing a great job. I may not agree with every decision (like shutting down discussion in some threads), but I sure like the overall feel and community they've created. This is a great site with a great culture and I appreciate everyone who contributes to that.
Charlie, your use of the words "rejected" and "booted" from the landscape gallery tells me that you're looking at this all wrong. An image that doesn't belong in the landscape gallery is no different than a sales report that was filed under the wrong month. They need to be moved to the right place. Websites, even those that are geared towards art and creativity, still benefit from a sense of structure.
As far as the M&N gallery being second rate, it is a bit of a vicious cycle, isn't it? It's also a testament to the outstanding quality of work in the more popular galleries.
Be nice to Charlie. He may be onto something. Would the Flora gallery kick something into the macro gallery or vice versa? Perhaps the "Big Cheese" gallery is a bit too full of itself. I am not an expert, but it seems like these galleries take on a personallity of their own.
Posted by Richard Hahn on August 16, 2011 at 3:19 AM
What makes you feel that the M & N Gallery is less popular? I check it every time that I sign in, because I open the Galleries section under "All Photos". Do I look at every posted photo, no & comment on less then I view for various reasons. In the M & N Gallery there is incredible pictures there. I believe that the saying goes something like " Art is in the eye of the beholder" and isn't Photography a form of art?
Believe me I do not like rules more then others, but sometimes they are meant to make things run smoothly. If you are not posting your photos because you feel that the M & N Gallery is less popular, then who are you hurting? To me you are hurting both yourself & us because you might have a photo that I might really like, or might not, but if you really like it then you are hurting yourself the most.
The bottom line is if you don't likle it here, then maybe it is not the place for you. I feel the Moderators are very liberal with what they allow and sometimes I donot see things as they do, but that is part of life. Just my thoughts.
Robert, every gallery has its own set of unique guidelines and some photos certainly overlap, as you point out. In the case of the landscape gallery, the "hand of man" rule is very clear and easy to follow. I can't think of any fair way to allow for any leeway there. And allowing any leeway at all would undermine the M&N gallery even further, I'm afraid. If the goal is to bolster the views and comments in the M&N gallery, relaxing the landscape gallery guidelines seems counterproductive.
Posted by Eva McDermott on August 16, 2011 at 7:08 AM
Charlie - Your post, the way it is presented, is confusing, especially when taken out of context from your previous post and conversation thread. Any image containing the hand of man should be posted in M&N.
All too often some people post those images in ESS thinking the hand of man won't be noticed.... but it will be, so why not post the image in the proper gallery to start with? Furthermore, why get upset when it is moved? What irritates me here is that the first quote was stated by another poster on your previous thread. You did not state that clearly and I think it is creating some confusion here.
In general, I think it is a bad idea to take statements out of context since they loose the spirit of their original intent which was meant for that particular conversation.
Posted by Bill Maile on August 16, 2011 at 8:33 AM
If respect is something of an importance to you, perhaps you should have quit while you were ahead.
Posted by Charlie Baugh on August 16, 2011 at 11:14 AM
I'll address this to Eva since I believe she and the gallery she moderates is most negatively effected by this area of discord. I have confused this whole issue and should be thought a "trouble maker" for pushing it so far. I did say earlier that purity to a standard IMO is of real benefit to landscape. I think it brings with it a sort of "us and them" slight separation of galleries where I, for only one, would more than anything like to see *all* members viewing and critiqueing the images of *all* other members.
In a perfect world that, it would seem to me, would make a vibrant and beneficial interchange. NPN is the best photocritique site ever created IMO and by my pushing this as far as I have makes it appear I'm unhappy with NPN and that could not be farthur from the truth.
Someone said they don't post to M&N because they don't get as many responses to their post. That is damaging to the overall blend of galleries and if anything positive comes of this thread I hope it is that more members post more images to M&N. I'm going to try to do just that.
*** Retreating to lick wounds. ***
Respectfully,
Charlie
Posted by Jim Sabiston on August 16, 2011 at 1:28 PM
Charlie,
Nice save in the end!
As one's whose work only occasionally fits into the NPN format this is an issue of some importance to me, but I would suggest that the NPN moderators do quite well with what is already a pretty broad range of subject matter. I have personally been a beneficiary of their 'less than absolutely strict' largess in the ESS gallery when I posted an image that was clearly landscape, but subjected to some fairly unusual and nonstandard processing. Several commenters thought the image should have been in the Photo Art Gallery, but the majority had no issue with it. The moderators ultimately awarded the image with an EP, which only shows their flexibility to my mind. The image can be seen in my Gallery here:
Some measures are admittedly more fuzzy than others (Photo art/not art as with this image for instance). As one who has moderated in the past (not at NPN) I can appreciate the relief when one has a clear delineater such as the 'hand of man'. Makes a moderator's life just a bit easier. Traffic is what it is unfortunately and the ESS Gallery has always been far and away the busiest and most trafficked. Not much we can do about that. If you want to see slow, check out the Environmental PJ Gallery. Some very important and high quality images in there, but they just do not generate the interest that a spectacular landscape image will. It's just the way it is. Mixing all the images would quickly degereate into a massive and unmanageable free-for-all. No thanks, better left in the well organized and moderated setup we currently benefit from. Perfect? No, but closer to that ideal then most options I've seen out there.
Posted by Charlie Baugh on August 16, 2011 at 2:28 PM
Thanks for responding Jim. You have long experience with NPN and would know better than I the difficulty of "wrangling" order out of the variety displayed here. When we can knock around a subject without getting too heated there seems always a coming togeather in thinking that won't happen by not discussing said difference.
I've posted to landscape before knowing the great variance in responses that are gotten in landscape as compared to other galleries and the images that I posted were thought, by me, to be landscape photos even thought there were certainly "hand of man" elements. Being new (then) I was taken aback somewhat and did not then think of the difficulty moderators had in keeping some order. I really hope I haven't worded my posts in this thread too harshly for anyones comfort. And if I have I apologize.
That image is certainly "watercolor" appearing though photography is just as apparent. It makes a good example to illustrate our thread here.
Rules are rules? We don't need courts and trials any more. A quick look into the Landscape gallery reveals quite a few shots that belong in the flora gallery. I think the biggest offenders are the shots that show the hand of man the most and belong in the Photo Art gallery. Can't say that I care so much, but as long as we are arguing . .
Posted by Carol Nichols on August 16, 2011 at 3:48 PM
Charlie, I think your comments have been well intended. To your subject "Man and Nature needs our respect", I say absolutely. I love M&N images that show man living in harmony with nature and enjoying themselves out in nature. So I for one will start commenting more often in the M&N Gallery and I hope others will do the same.
A quality photo from Man and Nature has potential to portray the highest level of excellence in photography.
Let me explain: M&N is the only gallery that allows you to post a portrait showing a man, woman or child immersed in nature. That photo can show interactions and emotions as affected by the natural world. Guiding the viewer to connect human emotion with the surrounding scene is amazing. When done well it is powerful.
But, demands for quality results are hardest to achieve. Discriminating audiences have well informed opinions of the face, the eyes, the hands and what story they tell. The photographer too easily skews the human emotion and misses the message intended. It is rare for a photographer to succeed in this arena. Beyond my ability, I prefer to settle for a shot of the wild scene and leave the people out. Let NatGeo and their expert photographers handle that stuff.
I would love for M&N to be considered as more than an errant fencepost or dirt road cluttering the scene.
Posted by Eva McDermott on August 16, 2011 at 8:21 PM
Great point Ken. Many seem to miss that aspect of M&N since they have been moved to M&N because of a fence post, or road they thought would be missed and feel bitter IMHO. There are many aspects to M&N that are overlooked especially images which contain people in nature. Some of those images that people intentionally post there, are very striking to me. They include outdoor action (climbing, hiking, kayaking,skiing, (isn't that what Galen Rowell was about to some degree?) photographers on a remote beach or mountain side, kids (even grand kids) enjoying nature, and contemplative images of someone with their dog enjoying the sunset. It is a more difficult subject (people in nature, hand of man) to convey effectively than many people think. Many thanks for explaining / mentioning that.
Charlie, regarding your comment with your Canyon de Chelly, AZ post now in M&N, I don't think the point people are trying to make is whether or not your image could be regarded as a landscape in the overall scheme of things but that here on NPN it corresponds to the posting guidelines for M&N and not Landscape, and per the guidelines I don't think there's any question about that. The only issue I would have is if the guidelines were being enforced or not enforced randomly or arbitrarily, and I haven't seen anything to see that's the case at all. I also don't think moving something from one gallery to another is rejecting it.
Posted by Charlie Baugh on August 16, 2011 at 11:44 PM
Thanks Barbara and everybody. I've learned alot. Not mad at anyone.
As it is my comment that has been quoted I feel I should make comment.
Once again we have the legions of NPN apologists who will brook no criticism of the status quo and get darn right hostile. And no doubt they will get their hackles up again. NPN is very good but it isn't perfect.
I must point out that I never said the M&N gallery was second rate in fact there are some stunning images in there but judging by the comments you'd never know.
Facts are facts denial is not a river in Egypt M&N is far less popular than landscape even though the majority of shots by any other definition are landscapes that just happen to have a man made element to it .
The first point that Charlie was trying to make and was rudely shouted down was simply that M&N deserves far more attention than it gets and I agree.
Discussion
22 repliesI think more people should visit, comment, and post in M&N. The gallery is far from second rate and it is a real shame a lot of people on NPN have that perception.
The above was posted by the moderator of "Man and Nature" and it brings me to wonder if many here wouldn't be happy posting more and commenting more in a gallery that has guidlines, but does not hammer their posters with, ever so strict, dicipline for minor infringements of what are "guidelines" (note: not rules).
I am going to post a photo that was "booted" out of landscape gallery for what I feel was an ever so small infringement of a """guideline""".
Please, I hope others will consider posting the images that you have had rejected by landscape gallery and let us judge the degree of non-compliance with the guideline it really was.
Charlie
To humor you, I dont' see an issue with photos being "kicked out" of landscape and being moved to M&N for things like a native american horse corral. The photo depicts something man made in a natural scene, exactly what M&N is for. I actually like the fact that the mods are "strict" because it's an extremely easy standard to play by - at what point does it become arbitrary? Is one fence post OK, but two fence posts aren't? Is it alright if there is a dirt road but not ok for a paved road? The easiest way to make a decision is to "boot" anything that has an element of man. I hope that you can get past this issue and be able to enjoy NPN without becoming stressed or upset every time you post an image because that defeats the purpose of this wonderful site.
In this case, I like the rules and how they are enforced.
Man and Nature sees less traffic and that’s just the way it is. I would not like to see the rules changed just because some folks want their work to get more views and/or comments.
As for people not posting a M&N shot in the M&N gallery because it gets fewer views and comments, it sounds like a vicious cycle--if those people would post and participate, problem solved.
I'd like to thank all the moderators here for the work they do. Nate and Keith in Avian, which is the only place I really post, and all the others along with Jim and the rest of the crew are doing a great job. I may not agree with every decision (like shutting down discussion in some threads), but I sure like the overall feel and community they've created. This is a great site with a great culture and I appreciate everyone who contributes to that.
As far as the M&N gallery being second rate, it is a bit of a vicious cycle, isn't it? It's also a testament to the outstanding quality of work in the more popular galleries.
Believe me I do not like rules more then others, but sometimes they are meant to make things run smoothly. If you are not posting your photos because you feel that the M & N Gallery is less popular, then who are you hurting? To me you are hurting both yourself & us because you might have a photo that I might really like, or might not, but if you really like it then you are hurting yourself the most.
The bottom line is if you don't likle it here, then maybe it is not the place for you. I feel the Moderators are very liberal with what they allow and sometimes I donot see things as they do, but that is part of life. Just my thoughts.
All too often some people post those images in ESS thinking the hand of man won't be noticed.... but it will be, so why not post the image in the proper gallery to start with? Furthermore, why get upset when it is moved? What irritates me here is that the first quote was stated by another poster on your previous thread. You did not state that clearly and I think it is creating some confusion here.
In general, I think it is a bad idea to take statements out of context since they loose the spirit of their original intent which was meant for that particular conversation.
In a perfect world that, it would seem to me, would make a vibrant and beneficial interchange. NPN is the best photocritique site ever created IMO and by my pushing this as far as I have makes it appear I'm unhappy with NPN and that could not be farthur from the truth.
Someone said they don't post to M&N because they don't get as many responses to their post. That is damaging to the overall blend of galleries and if anything positive comes of this thread I hope it is that more members post more images to M&N. I'm going to try to do just that.
*** Retreating to lick wounds. ***
Respectfully,
Charlie
Nice save in the end!
As one's whose work only occasionally fits into the NPN format this is an issue of some importance to me, but I would suggest that the NPN moderators do quite well with what is already a pretty broad range of subject matter. I have personally been a beneficiary of their 'less than absolutely strict' largess in the ESS gallery when I posted an image that was clearly landscape, but subjected to some fairly unusual and nonstandard processing. Several commenters thought the image should have been in the Photo Art Gallery, but the majority had no issue with it. The moderators ultimately awarded the image with an EP, which only shows their flexibility to my mind. The image can be seen in my Gallery here:
Windswept II
Some measures are admittedly more fuzzy than others (Photo art/not art as with this image for instance). As one who has moderated in the past (not at NPN) I can appreciate the relief when one has a clear delineater such as the 'hand of man'. Makes a moderator's life just a bit easier. Traffic is what it is unfortunately and the ESS Gallery has always been far and away the busiest and most trafficked. Not much we can do about that. If you want to see slow, check out the Environmental PJ Gallery. Some very important and high quality images in there, but they just do not generate the interest that a spectacular landscape image will. It's just the way it is. Mixing all the images would quickly degereate into a massive and unmanageable free-for-all. No thanks, better left in the well organized and moderated setup we currently benefit from. Perfect? No, but closer to that ideal then most options I've seen out there.
I've posted to landscape before knowing the great variance in responses that are gotten in landscape as compared to other galleries and the images that I posted were thought, by me, to be landscape photos even thought there were certainly "hand of man" elements. Being new (then) I was taken aback somewhat and did not then think of the difficulty moderators had in keeping some order. I really hope I haven't worded my posts in this thread too harshly for anyones comfort. And if I have I apologize.
That image is certainly "watercolor" appearing though photography is just as apparent. It makes a good example to illustrate our thread here.
Let me explain: M&N is the only gallery that allows you to post a portrait showing a man, woman or child immersed in nature. That photo can show interactions and emotions as affected by the natural world. Guiding the viewer to connect human emotion with the surrounding scene is amazing. When done well it is powerful.
But, demands for quality results are hardest to achieve. Discriminating audiences have well informed opinions of the face, the eyes, the hands and what story they tell. The photographer too easily skews the human emotion and misses the message intended. It is rare for a photographer to succeed in this arena. Beyond my ability, I prefer to settle for a shot of the wild scene and leave the people out. Let NatGeo and their expert photographers handle that stuff.
I would love for M&N to be considered as more than an errant fencepost or dirt road cluttering the scene.
Peace.
Charlie
Once again we have the legions of NPN apologists who will brook no criticism of the status quo and get darn right hostile. And no doubt they will get their hackles up again. NPN is very good but it isn't perfect.
I must point out that I never said the M&N gallery was second rate in fact there are some stunning images in there but judging by the comments you'd never know.
Facts are facts denial is not a river in Egypt M&N is far less popular than landscape even though the majority of shots by any other definition are landscapes that just happen to have a man made element to it .
The first point that Charlie was trying to make and was rudely shouted down was simply that M&N deserves far more attention than it gets and I agree.