Park Deer

Do we need to include the "C" thingy in park deer pics ?
I think we should, but would be interesteed in others views.
JR

I've never been to one of the parks so I don't know if they are "C", but I wish Scottish mountain stags were apparently so cooperative during the rut!

John. I take Ian's point that it is easier than photographing Deer outside of the park as they are unused to humans, however I do not believe they can be called captive for the following reasons
1) They are free to roam and the area they have is large 2000acres at times. There is no guarantee they will be where you are.
2) They are not dependant on humans for food
3) Captive animals like birds are bought out and flown along predetermined flight paths or put on stick for you.
4) Its a bit like Skomer, you know the puffins are there and they mostly ignore people but its still down to chance and skill when a moment arrives.

Interesting point though John and worth raising

I agree with you Phil, I spent all day with the deer at my local park on Friday. They certainly behave just like wild animals, they had me running about like a fool and I had to use all my tracking and stalking skills to the maximum! In my opinion the 'C' is not needed, I'd be interested to hear others' views on this topic though.

Good point though John, worth asking.

Here near Munich there are parks but I only visit one. At 5000hectares it is twice the size of Richmond park and has a very small head of red and fallow deer. It has taken me about 5 visits to find them this year in any number, and only now because of the rut and the noise. Last year I got about 3 usable shots. They certainly are not used to humans and I struggled to get anything on Sunday, in almost darkness. Hopefully my mossy oak will arrive with a friend from America so I can get back this weekend.

The un-inhibited roe deer and hares around here are easier to get shots of!

So no, for me parks are bloody difficult.

In my view John, no, no 'C' is required. The deer are still wild animals, and free to move at will and carry on their lives without interference of man, albeit within an enclosed area.

For what it's worth, wild deer have been enclosed in hunting parks since the Normans arrived a long long time ago.

Coming in on this one a bit late, I think a better description than "C" is "H" as in habituated to man.

The Richmond & Bradgate Park deer, are really no different to taking pictures of Puffins or Arctic tern at the Farnes, same principle applies, wild animals habituated to man.


You cannot possibly compare the skills required taking a picture of Park stag compared to a Highland Stag.

An old chestnut, will never be fully resolved, I'm with Mike, but the forum guidelines doesn't require it, it only requires the use of C when appropriate.

To be honest, if t was not for places like the Farnes, Cannock, Bradgate, Richmond, Donna, etc etc the quality of images seen of certain species would not be as high from most photogs.

In these times of thrift a solid venue is to be appreciated by those looking for an immediate fix; just don't sell it as a hard stalk.


T

I agree with what has been said. They may be habituated but I wouldn't want to pat one on the head. For what its worth there are places in Scotland where you can actually get as close to wild Red Deer as in any park without too much effort.

Interesting!

Nick

albeit within an enclosed area

Is that not "C" by definition?

Simon

there are places in Scotland where you can actually get as close to wild Red Deer as in any park without too much effort.

I know of plenty places to get close to wild red deer, but not when they are rutting - I've tried, even with a guide. If you know of such sites, I'm planning to have another go soon and would welcome a PM.

lol.. everything within the British Isles should be labeled 'C' then Ian - an Island could be said to be an enclosed area.

As I say, I haven't been to any of the parks. In what way are they "enclosed"? Are their movements restricted in any way by man?

Interesting comments.
The other point is that if they are fed (which many in parks are,) they possibly cannot be posted on the american "wildlife" gallery. No pics of "baited " animals is allowed.
The deer in the forest here are wild (fallow) and I know they are a damn sight harder to get near than all the nearby ones in parks.
Cheers
JohnR

But to define the shots with a C we would first have to define what is a Deer Park? The park here is actually a Park as it is protected by law due to the water underground. The deer are a remnant from royal hunting days and in now way are accustomed to man, nor are there many of them....but it is by name a park...enclosed and they are left food in the winter (which by the way are all deer here in Germany from what I see. The Roe deer and boar are all left grain in specific places in the forests...I presume by the hunters?). In the wild I need 500mm and in the park I need 500mm.... :)

Enjoying this good thread John I don;t think an animal that may recieve supplementary food in winter could be described as baited as I understand this to be putting food down specifically for the purpose of photographing the animal when it is drawn to it. That arguement could then be extrapolated, is building a pool by a hide baiting as the animals are being enticed to a spot? are animals that frequent feeding stations then in some way captive as part of their diet is made up of food from man. I think in the end it is just semantics. I still do not believe they are captive and i do not agree that a park perimiter makes them captive. Some parks in africa have fences. Vets treat animals on the Mara from time to time. The animals are confined to the Ngorongoro Crater. None suggest these are branded with the dreaded C. Sadly animals that are not impacted by man are in short supply so the term wildlife photography has to be a bit watered down perhaps in the end it is pragmatism not idealism that wins this arguement.

Good point Phil about the pool - but not true when the pool is natural one , which mine is (spring fed for 35 years at least ). As I say the main forums allow baiting birds but not animals . It does not stipulate the reason for putting food down. But in my mind- if food is put down, for photography or not- it's baiting, If you use that facility for photography or not which ever way you interpret it .
Any way thats a bit off topic. I still maintain that animals in parks are easier to photograph than fully wild ones.
I did build two deer parks
JR

Ive never tried to photograph dear outside a park, the idea just seemed too hard so i cannot argue with that point John

Very interesting points and no argument about them being easier to photograph John, on the whole I fully agree. But thinking about it further, it is fairly obvious which shots are park deer so there should be no confusion and no need for a 'c' even if it were warranted. Parks offer a different setting to most 'wilderness' areas and and we are seeing some lovely use of light in the images posted. Some of these shots would be nigh on-impossible outside the parks due to their individual characteristics.

It would be also be pretty difficult for someone to be deceitful and pass a park deer off as a highland one for instance. This is much more difficult to spot when birds of prey are concerned.

I also don't believe most (forum members or joe public) are that bothered. I recall posting a full frame portrait of a highland stag just after the rut a couple of years back. I don't recall it getting any more comments because it was 'wild'. I think as long as a subject is not tame or overly controlled then the image making process and the result is far more relevant to most of us

I agree with Phil Ellard on all points However his point on the Ngorongoro Crater is not quite correct as all the animals there are free to come and go as they please. It is a difficult journey for the larger creatures such as elephant and Rhino but they do make it occasionally. It is an impossible journey for giraffe however which is why there are none down in the crater.

Bob

I still don't know the answer. Are the parks fenced? If so, the animals are not free to come and go as they please, as a result of man's intervention ie, captive. If they are not free to come and go, then it's not surprising they are habituated to man. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't photograph them - many of the shots I see are superb. But in these times of openness and honesty with wildlife photography, it's an important issue.

Depends on the 'park' Ian. Some are actually walled, others are enclosed by fencing, others by the encroachment of mankind around the outside - eg roads. Parts of the Pennines around upper Weardale used to be a hunting 'park' for the Prince Bishops of Durham, I doubt that it was ever fully 'enclosed' as such - but both are long gone now!

From what I've seen of them, a lot of the parks still cover very large areas and deer are able to move around to avoid man. I'd also guess that most 'parks' are fairly 'porous' these days and that some small movement of animals in/out takes place.

I stand correceted Bob! Interestingly enough I was driving to kickboxing through epping forest tonight and next to the road in lovely golden light was a fallow deer stag, unfortunately my camera was at home but it shows oppotunities do exist outside the parks