Where are we going as a forum?

I am considering an offer to be a moderator in the forum and I am seeking some input on where we want to go in the future. We are by far the most active of all the forums and I think we can become even more so with the right direction in front of us. In order to do that, fresh ideas need to come from the folks who post here and not just the moderators.

Here are some thoughts, questions and Ideas I picked up from the other thread today so I am asking for your input. You can either reply in the thread or send me an email if that works better for you. The plan is to incorporate some exciting new vibrancy to the forum and encourage members to become more active and to encourage new membership….so here goes:


1. How much time do you spend on the forum? Do you just take a quick look, do you post comments, do you post images, do you post topics, etc.?

2. Do you feel that the critiques of your photos are honest and helpful to you? Are they hurtful, concise, ridiculous? Do they help you grow as a photographer? Are you honest with your critiques of others in the forum?

3. What kind of events would you like to see? Shindig, Moab workshop, fall photo get together, wildflowers in Crested Butte?

4. How about some workshops…what kind would you want.

5. Here’s a tough one..would you be willing to share your expertise? Write an article, a weekly tips thread, lead a workshop, lead a get together, anything that members can benefit from?

6. Would you be willing to get involved with planning and setting upof events such as Shindig, workshops, etc.?

7. If this was your personal site, what would you do to make it the best darn photography forum on the planet?

This is just a start. I encourage everyone to respond and share whatever ideas you have no matter how large or trivial they may seem. Feel free to e-mail me through the forum if you need.

Thanks!

1. How much time do you spend on the forum? Do you just take a quick look, do you post comments, do you post images, do you post topics, etc.?
TOO MUCH! And not enough.

2. Do you feel that the critiques of your photos are honest and helpful to you? Are they hurtful, concise, ridiculous? Do they help you grow as a photographer? Are you honest with your critiques of others in the forum?
I think peer critiques are one of the more useful and appreciated aspects of this forum.

3. What kind of events would you like to see? Shindig, Moab workshop, fall photo get together, wildflowers in Crested Butte?
Yes. Personally, I think that's plenty of group-wide activity. If others want to do things in smaller groups, have at it.

4. How about some workshops…what kind would you want.
"Forum Moderation: Worth the Aggravation?" by Rich Voninski

5. Here’s a tough one..would you be willing to share your expertise? Write an article, a weekly tips thread, lead a workshop, lead a get together, anything that members can benefit from?
You bet!

6. Would you be willing to get involved with planning and setting upof events such as Shindig, workshops, etc.?
Absolutely, as time allows.

7. If this was your personal site, what would you do to make it the best darn photography forum on the planet?
Steal Jesse Speer's photos and put my name on them.

Hehehe, who's gonna follow that?

For those who haven't followed all the recent discussions... Todd's responses to the above hint at his opinion that the direction of RMNP does not need to change drastically. It just needs a couple of people who have a bit more time to dedicate to the regular forum moderator duties, and can step in to relieve Rich and Jim C.

FWIW, I completely agree.

For the record I think Jack is going to make a great moderator so thanks for stepping up to the plate

As for the survey, Todd nailed it. BTW, I am still trying to figure out how to accomplish your solution to #7 hehehe!

However I think I might have a little more to add to #2. I have been lurking on the photo critique forum on 1x.com and if you know anything about that site you might understand why I haven't been vocal there (it's beyond intimidating). But they have one simple rule for giving critique and a strict punishment if you don't. Basically if you give critique you have to answer two questions: WHY and HOW. Why do you like/dislike an image and how it could be improved. A simple "like" will get you banned from critiquing for a few days (it's pretty harsh). But it gets the job done and the moderators are on you like a hawk and will scold you every time you miss the how or the why. But the person asking for a critique has to be very detailed about their own why and how of the image so it really works great for both parties. Everyone all around learns a lot from the experience as it takes a little more thought from everyone.

So I think if there was one area of improvement this could be an easy way to start. If you want real critique post with these two questions in mind and if you give feedback simply answer that way as well.

Also, I would be willing to throw my hat in the mod pool but I'm no longer local to the Denver area and know zero about computers or moderating. But I am willing to help out as much as I can even if it doesn't come with a "reward" of a free membership. For the most part my job doesn't require me to be fully engaged so I am on this forum checking things out pretty much constantly (sans actual participation). And I do enjoy talking to everyone here and would be sad to see it wither away.

1. How much time do you spend on the forum? Do you just take a quick look, do you post comments, do you post images, do you post topics, etc.? I am relatively new to this forum. I usually look around and post comments, I have not posted any images or topics....

2. Do you feel that the critiques of your photos are honest and helpful to you? Are they hurtful, concise, ridiculous? Do they help you grow as a photographer? Are you honest with your critiques of others in the forum? I like the idea of posting a series of pictures from a certain trip and then giving/receiving feedback as to which images people prefer the most.

3. What kind of events would you like to see? Shindig, Moab workshop, fall photo get together, wildflowers in Crested Butte? In addition of just photo shoots I would prefer an event that focuses on creative processing techniques and/or workflow. I am also interested in organizing mastermind groups (of 3 to 5 people) for individuals to share thoughts/ideas about business, marketing, creative techniques, hot spots, etc.

4. How about some workshops…what kind would you want. Photo workshops do not interest all that much, but I guess I would be interested in a Southern Colorado workshop on ghost towns, or a workshop at the Great Sand Dunes (Stan) or potentially something in the 4 corners area (John M.)

5. Here’s a tough one..would you be willing to share your expertise? Write an article, a weekly tips thread, lead a workshop, lead a get together, anything that members can benefit from? Yes

6. Would you be willing to get involved with planning and setting up of events such as Shindig, workshops, etc.?n Yes

7. If this was your personal site, what would you do to make it the best darn photography forum on the planet? For whatever reason, I sometimes have problems accessing this forum. Its hard to describe, but populates a few pictures and does so intermitently.

1) How much time do you spend on the forum? Do you just take a quick look, do you post comments, do you post images, do you post topics, etc.?

I'm on the forum nearly every day. Some days I just take a peek at new topics, other days I make comments on photos. I consider RMNP a link to the heart of my photographic explorations in the West and use the forum as a starting point for much of my research when visiting a new area. (For those who don't know, I live in Indiana but travel west of the Rockies as much as possible. The RMNP forum is much more active and valuable to me than the MWNP forum.)

2) Do you feel that the critiques of your photos are honest and helpful to you? Are they hurtful, concise, ridiculous? Do they help you grow as a photographer? Are you honest with your critiques of others in the forum?

I don't post photos for critique as often as I probably should, but when I do I feel the feedback is useful. Do the critiques help me grow? I think it's up to me to post images and ask for critiques that will help me grow. Most of the time I'm simply looking for feedback so I can determine what tweaks are needed before i print an image for myself or family/friends. I think the way we post and what we seek from feedback is determined by our own desires to grow or simply seek affirmation.

3) What kind of events would you like to see? Shindig, Moab workshop, fall photo get together, wildflowers in Crested Butte?

My answer to this applies to #4 as well. I would love to see 4-5 day photo trips in locations not only in the RMNP area, but to other parts of the country as well. Most of us travel, so why not meet up for a few days and travel together? I understand some photogs prefer to be alone when they shoot, but surely we could do a few things together. I know many of you in the CO area do just this, but what about having a meet up (sort of like the Moab event) once or twice a year wherein anyone can attend? I would buy a plane ticket for that!

4) How about some workshops…what kind would you want?

See #3

5) Here’s a tough one..would you be willing to share your expertise? Write an article, a weekly tips thread, lead a workshop, lead a get together, anything that members can benefit from?

I have no expertise. Truly.

6) Would you be willing to get involved with planning and setting upof events such as Shindig, workshops, etc.?

I love planning events and would do anything I can from afar. I spend way too much time on the internet and you can find out anything from the internet, right?!

7) If this was your personal site, what would you do to make it the best darn photography forum on the planet?

I like it just fine as it is.

Thanks for volunteering Jack!

I think the expertise and community found here is extremely valuable. The one complaint I have is that it's one of the oldest forum platforms I've ever seen - especially considering I have to pay to use it. I found the site pretty confusing to use (at first). Not sure if there is anything that could be done about this...but that's my feedback.

I'd love to write articles and such. I find that teaching is the best way of learning and is exactly why I started my blog.

I have been a member since the olden days and pretty much agree that bringing the forums back to the standards of the days of yore would be great. I also think there are opportunities to raise the forum to a higher level with some of the suggestions.

I'm not much of a gabbler and the shindig things are not my style, but I would be interested in a pay it forward type thing where the RMNP does an organized trail maintenance, outdoor clean up, or possbily a photo exhibit and sale with proceeds going to a conservation organization. Dave Showalter has been a great example of a photographer connecting nature photography to various outdoor conservation efforts and it would be good to see some connections to the organizations like the Audubon Society, The Nature Conservancy, or?.

The fall photo contest seems to be something that everyone enjoys and looks forward to. I sure do. What about another contest, say a summer flowers or winter snow contest?

BTW, I am still trying to figure out how to accomplish your solution to #7 hehehe!

First, kill Jesse, bury his body parts deep in the Absarokas, assume his identity, then steal his photos and put them on my site.

The answer would be to have Jesse and Jack B resign our page....hmmm

Stay away from my photo pile, Caudle. :)

NPN, not RNMP, is broke for me. I can't answer your questions, because I can't get past deeper issues that have killed my desire to participate within the NPN framework anymore. The posts of the last week have jolted me out of my complacent disdain. I feel no ill will towards anyone here, that's for sure. And all of this is really not a big deal in the grand scheme of life. Nevertheless, I'm walking away from this forum due to my own complaints with NPN - despite the obvious good of this group. I apologize for that, if it matters, and I share my thoughts as a means to hopefully add something to the overall discussion - even if it's not reflective of popular thought. I hope my post is taken as a worthwhile point of consideration. I don't need to post this stuff for myself, as I could simply drift off like so many others before me. I think it's worthwhile remembering that there's a large silent majority lost in all the gung-ho "let's get more moderators" hoopla.

I love RMNP, and the people here, but the new direction of NPN is simply disheartening and counter-intuitive to what made this place great in the first place. The new "pay to play" direction here is going to kill a huge part of what made RMNP so unique. I won't mince words. I already see it playing out. I think you're seeing hints of it in these recent threads ... and my words/thoughts are echoed by many who won't speak up for one reason or another. This system is worthwhile to many, as is, no doubt. And it's certainly easy to just to push forward to embrace those who share the groupthink positivity. But ignoring this largely silent pool of frustration and disdain might be a huge disservice to the future of the group - as it tries to push on in the new NPN way.

My subscription will run out soon, and I do not see any value in forking over $50 solely for posting power in a sub forum. Why ignore people like me … there are many of us who don't find value in the grand NPN package of benefits. Making forum access a "benefit" of membership totally kills everything that NPN once stood for. Sure, $50 may not be a big deal, but the "pay to play" direction is a huge deal … a deal-breaker for some. I seriously wonder if it's going to kill off what makes/made RMNP so great over the years??? I suggest considering this as part of the whole "refresh" package being discussed.

Despite this latest push for fresh blood and renewed enthusiasm, it's now harder than ever to actually participate here in the first place. I think THAT is what's largely being missed. The beauty of NPN for a significant number of users (especially in this particular forum) has always been the ability of photographers at all levels to participate with any of level of irregularity, without the need for subscriptions. This foundational access maintained a certain level of diversity … it allowed great ease in remaining loyal, without considerations to the time constraints we all face … and it's even what kept even the burnouts hanging around. It meant daily participants were posting alongside monthly participants. Pros popping in to post alongside beginners. And so on. I hope people realize that this is unique character is slowly eroding away, in favor of a "pay to play" model. This may be a necessity to help Jim stay afloat, but unfortunately, it's going to drive a lot of people away. Is this going to hinder or help the renewed push for RMNP?

Yeah, it's not a democracy, so I'll shut up now … I just find it all very disheartening. It's kinda sad that such a solid "open source" model is being dumped for subscriptions.

Anyway, I realize my unique input is likely insignificant in the grand scheme of things … that it's just an opinion. Jim is indeed honorable in his responses to maintain the greatness here, but there's no denying you're all in a "pay to play" business model now. In the end, that alone kills what made this place so unique -for me. And for many others. Don't take it lightly …as you all charge ahead in unity under the NPN umbrella. Consider this silent majority as you map out a grand future for this unique group. The grand plans are rooted in a grand history, which might not be possible without the framework that made it all possible in the first place. I hope I'm wrong. And honestly, I'll still hold out hope that the "pay to play" junk goes away - or is re-thought in favor of better usability.

Be well everyone. Sorry for this another long-winded post. Hope this helps somewhat.

I know it sucks to go from a free, open source forum to having to drop $49 yearly, but that's because we got accustomed to the free site. I realize that if it had started out as a pay-to-play site, most of us wouldn't have bothered to sign up in the first place. But now, after years of involvement, I see the value of having this community experience. To each, his own, but I think it's worth the $49. (I'll send you my bank account info separately, Jim E, I use a special account to accept bribes and payoffs. ) I'm also of the opinion that Jim would see a huge increase in membership if it cost $19 or $29 a year rather than the current $49, which I think is a much higher hurdle of justification to clear for a lot of people. I sell my products for as low a price as I can justify, simply because I'd rather sell 100 $10 books than four $35 ones. I think the same model could work here.

To clarify, I think an introductory membership fee of $19 would be low enough that many potential new members would take the risk and pay the fee, thereby becoming a part of the community and seeing value in the $49 normal fee. Nearly 50 bucks seems too high to take a chance on a forum in the first place. Just my 2¢.

2 more cents from me...

I could stand up a very feature rich forum site in about 1 hour, pay about $10/mo for hosting (if that), and easily compete with the forum based functionality of NPN. Right or wrong, I've never really participated in anything outside the forums, so maybe there's a huge amount of value there for my $50 that I'm missing. Regardless, I don't see the value in the $50 membership fee. I'd love to either see these forums upgraded to current technology or would be happy to stand up my own (not to jab one at NPN, but simply to provide functionality that's missing).

I gotta say that the $49. membership is a chunk of change for me, too. I rethink membership every year and probably would not renew were it not for the RMNP forum. I don't mind paying for the forums, but in my mind the value added is closer to Todd's estimates. And will rethink it when it comes around next time.

For others it might be more or less valuable, but that's what it is for me.

1. How much time do you spend on the forum? Do you just take a quick look, do you post comments, do you post images, do you post topics, etc.?
I visit the forum almost every day, and on most of those days, I'll visit it several times. I usually browse the topics for something that looks interesting. I do occasionally comment, post images and start topics.

2. Do you feel that the critiques of your photos are honest and helpful to you? Are they hurtful, concise, ridiculous? Do they help you grow as a photographer? Are you honest with your critiques of others in the forum?
Many critiques are well thought-out, with useful and helpful suggestions. The information and tips gained have helped me become better at this craft. I try to be as honest as I can when I critique an image, if by doing nothing else than noting why I like or don't like an image.

3. What kind of events would you like to see? Shindig, Moab workshop, fall photo get together, wildflowers in Crested Butte?
The annual shindig is great (I promise to bring a more worthwhile photo to the next one ). I'm a big fan of any group activities since I learn better with the hands-on approach than by reading (although, I guess most of us are the same in that regard).

4. How about some workshops…what kind would you want.
You name it, I'd like to see it. Did I see something about Todd doing one for free?

5. Here’s a tough one..would you be willing to share your expertise? Write an article, a weekly tips thread, lead a workshop, lead a get together, anything that members can benefit from?
I don't know if I have much in the way of "expertise" to offer this group (especially in light of someones post in another forum...maybe I just suck), but I do know a lot of great locations. I'm always happy to lead a hike someplace (I spend the summers conducting hikes for one of the local parks).
6. Would you be willing to get involved with planning and setting up of events such as Shindig, workshops, etc.?
I'll do whatever I can within the confines of my work schedule and other commitments.

7. If this was your personal site, what would you do to make it the best darn photography forum on the planet?
I'd like to see the ability to post larger or higher res photos (I understand that is out of the control of the mods of this forum...but you asked).


I learn a LOT from this forum. I would hate to see it go by the wayside. It's definitely worth the $49. What can I do to help make it better?

1. How much time do you spend on the forum? Do you just take a quick look, do you post comments, do you post images, do you post topics, etc.?
Waaaaay too much time. I check in on the forum at least once a day sometimes several times depending on how slow it is at work. I usually only post comments when I feel I have something to add that's relevant. I post images from time to time but lately have been putting more images up on other sites. Not sure why.

2. Do you feel that the critiques of your photos are honest and helpful to you? Are they hurtful, concise, ridiculous? Do they help you grow as a photographer? Are you honest with your critiques of others in the forum?
I've been lucky (so far) that most of the images I've posted weren't shredded. That being said, I have a pretty thick skin and take the attitude that if one of my images pleases me, say whatever you want cause there may be something I've missed. (edit) When I give critique on someone else's image I always hag check myself to make sure everything I'm submitting is sent in a constructive way. If I don't like something about an image I'm honest about why I don't like it...but in the nicest possible way.

3. What kind of events would you like to see? Shindig, Moab workshop, fall photo get together, wildflowers in Crested Butte?
This is the hot button for me. I look forward to the Shindig every year and just yesterday posted a proposed spring photo trip that was based around the Moab Spring Fling. I really enjoy hanging around with other RMNP shooters and will take advantage every chance I get. I'd like to see some group shoots, maybe centered around some of the regular things we all do here in Colorado. (CB wildflowers in July and aspens in Sept/Oct, stuff like that) It seems we all are there around the same times and I recall a couple of years ago everyone near CB was tasked with putting a piece of ribbon on their antenna or something like that. I'd like to see something a little more structured around that kind of activity.

4. How about some workshops…what kind would you want.
I'm always up for post processing stuff. Nat has put on some Lightroom stuff and the NIK stuff Bret Edge went through last spring in Moab was really good. I'm also infatuated with night sky shooting and would love to hang out with some of the folks here that are very proficient at that stuff.

5. Here’s a tough one..would you be willing to share your expertise? Write an article, a weekly tips thread, lead a workshop, lead a get together, anything that members can benefit from?

I have always been happy to share what I know with anyone that asks. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what I could offer to most of the participants of this forum. The talent level meets or exceeds mine in most if not all cases here. I'll keep thinking about this one.

6. Would you be willing to get involved with planning and setting upof events such as Shindig, workshops, etc.?
See #3

7. If this was your personal site, what would you do to make it the best darn photography forum on the planet?
As I responded to #3, the face to face stuff is what I look forward to most. Some geat information passes here on the web but it's the face to face, putting a face to a name, seeing how someone else sets up their tripod....those are the important things to me and as such that's what I would concentrate on.

Todd said;

To clarify, I think an introductory membership fee of $19 would be low enough that many potential new members would take the risk and pay the fee, thereby becoming a part of the community and seeing value in the $49 normal fee.

We have the 30 day free trial membership now. We could extend that if you think more time is needed.

The idea of having several membership levels is a good one too - maybe an option for free access just a single regional group forum?

Jim- I love the idea of free access to the regional forums, as that's 99% of what i use. However, I'm still ok with paying a fee for access to those. You have a business to run, we all understand that. Perhaps a modified fee for regional forum-only use?? Another consideration could be a monthly fee instead of an annual fee. Might make it easier on some pocketbooks to pay $4/month instead of $49/year.

Jim's reply to my questions about needing more storage for panoramic photos, and my willingness to pay more for it,
is a prime example of his "willingness to help". I did get a snide comment about "groupthink" and "zombies".

I've been taking notes and hope folks will continue to let us know what you want from the forum.

Jim E. ... I hope you are listening carefully as well because there are some requests here that only you can control. I've already had a couple emails about the limited free access thing as well as a tiered type membership. Several people want to know why we can't have larger photo posts (1200 pix) on the main forum page...nobody wants the galleries and I've heard that in the other forums as well...seems like there could be an easy fix to this.

There were some interesting suggestions from a couple people that I got in emails and once I have a little more information, I will share their thoughts.

Two big concerns I have right now are the photo contest and the shindig. Until I get login access and get in touch with Rene, I can't start anything on the contest so it may be a little late this year and I apologize for that.

We still have no place for the shindig and I have no idea what to do when we find a place since I haven't been involved in settting up one of these things.

Finally, I have been in contact with Richie and asked him to stay on and let me do the day to day stuff and have him help as a mentor and advisor. He is pretty upset and I'm not sure that he would do it. If you want him to stay involved I would encourage you to send him an email of support...I think he has a lot to offer in that roll. Richie, I'm sorry you are about to get a bunch of emails!

I look forward to more comments and emails for whatever is on your mind.

Jesse, you rock!!

Oh Art, give it a rest!

Okay, so in starting to gain inspiration for my Spring Photopalousa trip to the Northwest I popped in on the PNWNP board and IMHO we might take a look at what they are doing. Seems they changed mods in July and it looks like the group is getting really active. It also looks like they are observing what RMNP has been doing since they appear to be posting lots of images on their forum board, not the gallery board. They're also planning a Holiday Get Together with a print exchange that is "a twist on what RMNP does."

When I posted earlier what I think RMNP should look like moving forward, PNWNP appears to be on that track. Check it out!

You are right Bill. I went on that site in March and encouraged them to post to the forum...most of them thought they had to use the gallery. As soon as they found that out, things began to change. It's pleasant to see what they are doing...did you see they are planning an event much like ours?

Does anybody know how many attend the shindig? I'm thinking it was between 50-70??

Yes, Jack. I mentioned earlier their Holiday Get Together and print exchange. And here's a shout out to all the talented shooters here....there's some damn fine work over on PNWNP. We need to pick it up, boys and girls.

Arthur said;

Jim's reply to my questions about needing more storage for panoramic photos, and my willingness to pay more for it, is a prime example of his "willingness to help". I did get a snide comment about "groupthink" and "zombies".

I apologize if I offended you. Those comments were actually more for Todd as I believe he was the most outspoken about not liking the RG gallery concept from the beginning. At this point I will concede that he was right!

So here's what's on my to-do list (at least cost the backend structural changes that would be needed);

1. Provide an optional 1200 pixel/500kb upload capability for the RG forums. At the same time, delete the RMNP gallery.

2. Provide an option for a $19 yearly membership to RG forum only.

3. Any moderator who serves a 1-year "tour of duty" gets a lifetime membership (and free membership while they are a moderator)

Would these changes cover what you think are needed?

Here are a few more ideas on what we can do to better support RMNP;

1. Provide NPN hats (24 per carton, at cost) with RMNP embroidered on the back. These would be shipped to one peron in the RMNP to distribute as you see fit.

2. Provide free RMNP field cards for your members to distribute.

3. Any other NPN items at cost that you can use to promote the group.

I appreciate your input!

Jack, I've offered several times to help with and/or run the fall colors contest.

And why are you trying to convince Rich to stay on as moderator when he's obviously very busy, probably burnt out, and pissed from being publicly dragged through the mud? Let him be, recruit someone new and move on.

Just sayin'...

JIm E., You may have hit a home run here with some of the issues. I know a lot of people want to post bigger images to the forum so this is a huge plus. The $19.00 membership may be a big help to those who only want to be a part of one forum...thanks! I'll be in touch later today or tonite.

Scott, I'm sorry I didn't see the part where you would be willing to setup and run the contest for this year. I will email you today since I don't even have an html editor yet and yes I accept your offer to help! And your point is well taken with Rich. I will let him enjoy some peace.

1. How much time do you spend on the forum? Do you just take a quick look, do you post comments, do you post images, do you post topics, etc.?
I pop in and out several times during the course of the day. Maybe spend one hour total between RMNP and the galleries to read posts, post images and give feedback.

2. Do you feel that the critiques of your photos are honest and helpful to you? Are they hurtful, concise, ridiculous? Do they help you grow as a photographer? Are you honest with your critiques of others in the forum?
While the comments of "I like #" may give a sense of worth to an image, I value more the critiques that give specifics and a reason. Very welcome and aften received is critique that is constructive about an area needing improvement. I would welcome honest negativity if the image is deserving of it. In my comments, I try to give both positives and comments on what I think can be improved. Hopefully including the latter is not construed as being negative, as I hope to be honest and constructive in my comments.


3. What kind of events would you like to see? Shindig, Moab workshop, fall photo get together, wildflowers in Crested Butte?
Distance has kept me from the winter shindig, and while I hoped to attend the Moab gathering last spring, Mothers Day conflicted. I think that informal meetings in Zion, CB or Ridgway during the seasons can work.

4. How about some workshops…what kind would you want.
Possibly macro photography, or use of a tilt/shift lens

5. Here’s a tough one..would you be willing to share your expertise? Write an article, a weekly tips thread, lead a workshop, lead a get together, anything that members can benefit from?
I do not know that I would consider myself a polished expert. Might be able to put together something like a "mistakes of a rookie"

6. Would you be willing to get involved with planning and setting up of events such as Shindig, workshops, etc.?
I would possibly welcome working with another on an Arizona location shoot.

7. If this was your personal site, what would you do to make it the best darn photography forum on the planet?
Having met and shot with just a few members, the resulting friendships and forum interaction has been beneficial and greater. There seems to be more discourse and detail between those one knows or has met. Thus, more face to face meetings may foster the forum involvement and posts/feedback.

The best way to improve the RMNP experience, imo:

1. Let the people who complain mightily but contribute infrequently move on to other sites. Such melodrama over the 10% of things that could be improved while largely disregarding the 90% that is better than anywhere else is absurd. Kudos for wanting to improve the 10%, but the complaint-based, public-lynching approach is counter-productive.

2. You know the saying… Be the change you want to see. Don't put it on the mods. They're not here to make your experience better, you are. This is a self-governing, self-sustaining "community", not an autocracy. Mods are here to keep things running smoothly and periodically coordinate events with the help of others. If you haven't volunteered to pitch in at some point - or even better, taken the initiative - you really have little room to complain about what others are contributing.

3. Recognize that you get what you pay for. There are a lot of FREE sites. Let's discuss how well those communities function. Not only is $49 reasonable for the value here (imo), but it keeps the rif-raf out. If you want a site with a consistent membership of quality contributors, unlimited storage, where anyone can post, without obtrusive advertising and frequent flame ups all for $0, I'd like to know how that works. Then I'd like to add my wish for a unicorn and red Aston Martin.

4. Don't be naive. If you think creating a 'new' site will resolve all ills, I'm certain you'll be disappointed. I can't think of two more capable people than Jesse and Darren, yet NPC never achieved the critical mass necessary to make it successful long-term. You'll need more than a "if we build it, they will come" mindset. You need a sound business model (see #3 above). And for the few shortcomings here, the model is still quite sound. While other regional forums continue to contract and languish (see PNWNP for an unfortunate example of a previously strong forum that has withered to near nothing; it goes days without posts....), RMNP has continued to grow stronger. Duplicating that success will require more than a hastily assembled html page with forum software running on it.

This is a great site, great community and great resource. Continue to improve it. Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good. Perfection is something you work towards as a community, not something you create overnight individually.

No disrespect to anyone, but I agree to the points made by both Jesse about the direction of the forum, and those by Scott B. NPN has the best people I have ever been with on a forum, and yet the worst site I have ever experienced. I get so sick and tired of the unfriendly layout, site design and posting restrictions. I have wagged my tongue about this for some time now, and nothing has changed. I don't feel like my $50 is getting me anything other than someone taking advantage of a community of people here. I struggle every year with paying the $50, not because it is going to break the bank, but because every time I go to post an image or browse this site on a mobile device I get livid with how ridiculous it is. Time to upgrade the site has frankly come and past. I predicted a down turn in membership and I think recent activity is showing precisely that.

As some have noticed, I am also fading into the background and will be posting less and less until my membership expires. If this forums direction is forcing me down a route that it is only a place that I post my images on galleries, then there are far better sites for free that I am already a member of for that purpose.

I am sure my message here will not sit well with some, so if I offended anyone then I apologize. I shall sincerely miss the community, and wish everyone the best of luck.

Koveh, I agree that the basic design/functionalitry of the site is outdated compared to some others. For example, I see the 500px link in your sig - if I had $525,000 in start-up venture capital like they did, I'm certain great improvements could be made.

We do the best we can with the very limited resources we have to work with. And as always, any suggestions/offers to help are appreciated!

Jim, I am NOT a web designer so spank me if I get out of line here. Have you considered having somebody like Jesse or a web designer do an update to the overall site? Wide Range has done a number of sites for photographers that look pretty darn good...do I get a discount Jesse??? It's just a thought..I have no idea how major the code is and what's involved and I'm not web techie enough to answer some of the questions that have come up. Another thought is that with a site upgrade, it may draw new membership to offset the cost. I don't think it would cost $500,000 to do an upgrade since you already have the basic code.

First, for me $49 is quite a bargain, the input I get from knowledgeable, talented, and polite photographers is worth every penny. Consider most people spend that much on coffee in 2 weeks. Second, I find it interesting that photographers who constantly complain anytime someone asks them for free use of a photograph will then ask to use a site like this for free. I rarely have an issue with the technical aspects of this site, sure it will always be better to have bigger file sizes, etc, but for the purpose of the site I think it works pretty well. I also appreciate that Jim has eliminated the ads from view for members and only the non-members have to look at them.

Second, I find it interesting that photographers who constantly complain anytime someone asks them for free use of a photograph will then ask to use a site like this for free.

Bullseye.

Jim, first off, designing a good site has nothing to do with money like you are talking about. There have been tons of great sites designed lately (500px, 1x etc) and nobody has money like that to toss around. Second, how many paying members have you guys had in the last 3 years alone? If you had ten thousand paying members over a course of 3 years, that is $500,000? Where exactly is this money going, if not to improve the site? Domain registration and running a website certainly is not that expensive. Have you seen another site on the internet today that has this type of restrictions with file uploads? 300k when storage space is so cheap? 800px restrictions? It simply does not make sense. We can sit here and argue about it, but the reality is that there are a ton of great sites out there and more coming that are free and do not have these restrictions. Those that refuse to do something about it, simply get left behind, as a site like this is nothing without its members.

Koveh, In another post further up JIm is increasing the size to 500k and 1200px. There are a ton of other sites out there but this one ain't all that bad....a lot of good people here and you've shot with a lot of them....sometimes it's good to remember our roots! With some upgrades it will be up there with the rest of them.

Jack, Jim asked for feedback, so I gave it. I also gave this feedback a year ago. Again, this has nothing to do with the people here, and I clearly made that distinction in my original post.

There have been tons of great sites designed lately (500px, 1x etc) and nobody has money like that to toss around.

500px did! Go to the site, scroll to the bottom and click investors > investment opportunities, click the Round A link in the second sentence. Yep, they had over half a million in start-up venture capital. Give me $500k to invest in a website and I'll give you all the functionality you could ever use!

If you had ten thousand paying members over a course of 3 years, that is $500,000? Where exactly is this money going, if not to improve the site?

$500,000? In 3 years? In my dreams! A more accurate indication of NPN revenue might be how much you'd make working at MacDonalds as an employee.

But to further the conversation on this topic, ask yourself this;

1. How much is your time worth? Five dollars an hour? Ten dollars an hour? How much would you have to make to justify working a second job nights/weekends beyond your regular job? How much would you have to make to give up the other things that you would rather be doing?

2. Do you believe that a business can survive just covering its overhead? Even non-profit companies have payroll to cover - no one shows up to work for free every day just because the company is non-profit.

3. Do you believe that the people who run NPN, write for NPN, edit articles for NPN do not deserve compensation for their time? Do you believe these are things we should do for free? If not, where does the money come from to pay for it?

OK, on to photos - we already offer 1200 pixels/500kb (which is now coming to the forums as well) - how much larger do you need? Bear in mind the average monitor (as of today) have a screen res width of around 1440, so anything much wider is going to require scrolling - not an ideal way to view/critique a photo.

That said, let me know what other functionality you need and I promise I will do all I can with the resources I have to work with.

PS to Jack - this is all server-side programming we're discussing, not website design.

Jim, I think you have many wonderful ideas for the site. I love the idea of free membership for serving moderators, and lifetime membership after serving 1-year. As a former moderator of RMNP, and one of the three that oversaw the merger of SWNP and CNP, I think this is a great idea! Those were tough times, and I know I took my fair share of the heat from some of the members, and I'm sure the other mods did as well. A free membership would have been a nice perk then, just as it would be now.

I think your other ideas are great as well. I especially like the idea of a $19/year membership plan for access to one RG forum.

Adam, you're now a "lifer."

Spread the word to the other former mods.

Congrats Adam!

I believe the membership of RMNP should also accept some of the responsibility for the current state of the community. We all need to be more active (myself included) in encouraging and creating opportunities to get together at local/regional events. I think everyone should keep in mind that it's the members of NPN/RMNP that make this community what it is, and is not. I'll echo Rick's comments above in item 2 of his post. Moderators serve to keep the forum running smoothly. The general membership needs to be involved in event planning beyond saying "I'll be there".

As a former RMNP moderator, I'd like to make a few suggestions:
1) I believe what the group needs is one "super" moderator who sets the tone for the organization. This position should be reserved for someone that has had prior experience as a forum moderator or event coordinator so that they can provide assistance (when needed) to the other more junior moderators.

2) There should also be 2 regular forum moderators. The first moderator would manages the promotion/marketing of events & contests. The second moderator would manage the day-to-day forum happenings. The "super-mod" would also be able to step into either of the other 2 moderator positions if/when they are unavailable to address their duties and responsibilities due to being on the road, or tied up with work.

3) Beyond these 3 moderators, I would like to see state reps serving as event coordinators. They would serve for a period of 1-year and would be responsible for envisioning and planning events in their state. This would encourage newer members to get involved and it would prepare them to eventually step into a moderator role if needed.

I think it's important to keep in mind that turnover is a good thing. Burnout happens...I know I suffered from it which is one of the reasons for my lack of participation in the forum.

Please give the moderators your full support. If you've got an idea, or complaint, send them an email. I'm sure they would love to hear from you, but be patient and give them a fair chance to reply before taking things public.

In my experience, moderators serve because they love the community and want to give something back in return for all that they have gained. It's normally a thankless job and very few people understand the amount of work that can go into it. I'd like to offer my thanks to all the current and past moderators.

Jim,
Thank you! I know you can only justify giving away so many free memberships. Please take care of the current moderators first...and don't forget Richie V.!

Richie V. has his, but I don't think it will get much use...

First, for me $49 is quite a bargain, the input I get from knowledgeable, talented, and polite photographers is worth every penny. Consider most people spend that much on coffee in 2 weeks. Second, I find it interesting that photographers who constantly complain anytime someone asks them for free use of a photograph will then ask to use a site like this for free. I rarely have an issue with the technical aspects of this site, sure it will always be better to have bigger file sizes, etc, but for the purpose of the site I think it works pretty well. I also appreciate that Jim has eliminated the ads from view for members and only the non-members have to look at them.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Absolutely fine post Adam..love everything you suggested!

1. Let the people who complain mightily but contribute infrequently move on to other sites. Such melodrama over the 10% of things that could be improved while largely disregarding the 90% that is better than anywhere else is absurd. Kudos for wanting to improve the 10%, but the complaint-based, public-lynching approach is counter-productive.

Exactly --or close to -- what I was thinking.

To summarize;

1. A special $19 membership is being created for access to RG forums only.

2. The 1200 pixel/500kb optional photo feature is being installed in the forum software.

I too like Adam's suggestions above. Further constructive suggestions are appreciated.

There's a ton to read and digest in this thread and the "explains" one. I don't want to be one who offers critiques with no solutions so I'm going to start by responding/adding to Rick and Adam's especially excellent thoughts/suggestions.

1. The way the complaints and frustrations have been vented this week was harsh and unfortunate. Rich and Jim C. took a lot of heat for many things they have no control over. However, perceptions sometimes turn into reality. When it appears the basic work everyone is used to seeing isn’t being done (monthly contests becoming bi or tri-monthly for example) it's much easier to forget what great work goes on behind the scenes. It’s unfair but it’s how it occurred, justly or unjustly. Let’s rightly thank those who have added so much to RMNP and move on.

2. There are always going to be those in a community who only want to complain, BUT I think it's probably more than 10% of the forum members who have legitimate concerns about the direction of the forum and/or NPN right now. Quite obviously some of the responses we've seen on both threads have come from a diverse group: some early members who have contributed a bunch, some newer members who don't have as many posts/comments to their name. That's telling of something. It worries me when it is suggested that the most weight should go to only what the "frequent contributors" say. Perhaps there are some good reasons why the recent “infrequent users” have been posting less that goes beyond a simple compulsion to complain? Read Jesse’s post in this thread. Read Kurt’s “sick of” thread. It goes without saying both of these guys aren't newbies. The last thing I want to see is RMNP turning into a popularity contest. If memory serves me right it seems that was one of the big reasons people got fed up with PNWNP a couple of years ago. I believe the popularity contest aspect is present in some of the other NPN Galleries and is a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode. IMO this forum has been extremely resistant to that, "groupthink” or not, and that’s why it’s so special.

3. There are indeed a lot of free sites out there. Many of which are not fun places to be because of the trite critique, frequent flaming and the constantly inconsiderate community members. I too think it is not just the mods’ responsibility but also the members’ responsibility to uphold a constructive culture in a forum. I’ve visited several of those other sites (and I know other RMNP/NPN members have too) and definitely won’t go back. What happened this week pales in comparison to some of the other things I’ve experienced on those forums. That said, one of the issues facing RMNP is it is just not competing with other those other forums. It's not even just competing with the photo-centric sites like Flickr and 500px., it's also social media: Facebook, Google+, Twitter, etc. Personally, I like the simplicity of this forum compared to the other choices but it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea anymore. We’re in a crossroads. How do we keep both the members who love the old days and the ones who want a more cutting-edge approach? To me, the quality of the community that contributes here makes the extra cost worth it over the other outlets.

4. Starting yet another forum (even discussing doing that here) is probably not going to be the answer to our problems. I’d guess that a big reason why NPC lost its activity is because people got tired of posting the same information to two different forums at the same time. How is this going to turn out now when there are even more Web outlets available like those I just mentioned? I miss Darren's contributions here, and I would beg Jesse to stay! I don’t want to lose the other talented members who post here either. Let’s keep working on making this forum better! Jim E.’s upload capability, $19 yearly membership to the forum offer and lifetime membership compensation for mods who serve a year are steps in the right direction. A new mod setup as suggested by Scott B. in the "explains" thread and similarly by Adam in this thread both make a lot of sense. Let’s put something like them into place. I’m raising my hand and I want to help in whatever way I can. This forum is worth it.

Been watching from the sidelines and hesitated to wade in but what the hell. There isn't much I could add that hasn't already been said. I agree with Rick, Adam, Scott, etc. RMNP is a great place to hang out and share photography and I think it will improve vastly in the coming months. I wish to thank Jim and Richie for their work as mods (having been one [for the now defunct SWNP] I know its not easy). Concerns about the direction of RMNP could have been voiced with tact and class and with offers of help and ideas for improvement. Its a shame it didn't go down that way. For those of you leaving and starting your own forum, good luck to you. For the rest of us who stay, lets make RMNP even better! Thanks also to Jim E. for his willingness to offer more and more perks and features just because someone asked him to. $50??? Worth every penny!!

I think we should close this thread and begin the process of moving forward. We have a lot of fresh ideas and Josh and I are gonna be working with Jim E. over the next few days to get things rolling. I wanna see some new pictures!!!!! Thanks for your input everyone and feel free to email me with any suggestions. We will be asking for volunteers in lots of different areas so put your thinking caps on.

(Sorry Jack, little slow here with the new baby!)

Wow, there’s a lot to digest in these recent threads! First of all, thank to Jack for stepping up and giving our mods some well-deserved relief. And a big THANK YOU! to Richie and Jim for all their efforts: they are appreciated.

Overall, I love this forum, and I don’t have much interest in any other one. I’m of the camp that revitalizing RMNP makes a lot more sense than trying to build something new. Ever since I ponied up my fifty bucks, I’ve tried to talk myself into posting in the main galleries, but the truth is I like RMNP better. I feel like the Landscape gallery in particular is out of control with its increasing number of users, relentless pace of posts and problems giving consistent critiques. RMNP still feels more intimate, familiar and welcoming, and I believe quality criticism is available here for those who really want it (more below). I’ve lurked for quite a long time, and it’s been worth the cash for me for a few years now, though I must admit that Jim’s offer of a reduced RMNP-only rate will be very tempting. But I definitely appreciate the advantages of a pay-to-play model, and I don’t grudge Jim his income from NPN.

How much time do you spend on the forum? Do you just take a quick look, do you post comments, do you post images, do you post topics, etc.?

I visit at least daily whenever I’m home, but I don’t always have the motivation for serious participation. Often, I just want some pretty landscape photos to brighten up my day. But I am making a (not entirely successful effort) to be more active on the forum.

Do you feel that the critiques of your photos are honest and helpful to you? Are they hurtful, concise, ridiculous? Do they help you grow as a photographer? Are you honest with your critiques of others in the forum?

I feel like the critique here is best when the poster asks specific questions about the photo; people step up and give great answers. Otherwise, I think folks (myself included) hold back a bit. Let’s face it, a good critique takes a lot of mental effort, and the critic has to be in good, thoughful place mentally. And that’s all the more true when the posted photo is a good one, as is usually the case around here. I know that when I post, I generally offer my strongest shots, and I like flattery as much as the next guy. But I’d probably get more out of this community by posting more problematic images and articulating the things I’d like help with. I would also point out that much of the benefit of thoughtful critique is to the critic himself.

What kind of events would you like to see? Shindig, Moab workshop, fall photo get together, wildflowers in Crested Butte?

As Adam has mentioned, I think it would be ideal to spark up some events outside of Colorado (Moab’s a great start). We have our little New Mexico contingent here, and it would be great to get us together, for shooting, workshop, critique, or just beer. Likewise for northern Rockies folks (see recent threads re. attracting Idaho photographers). I know this kind of thing is hard to spearhead, though, and with a new baby I’m not in a position to lead the charge.

How about some workshops…what kind would you want.

Well, almost anything located closer to Santa Fe than Colorado Springs ; ) Something to help me get a better handle on printing would be particularly enticing.

Here’s a tough one..would you be willing to share your expertise? Write an article, a weekly tips thread, lead a workshop, lead a get together, anything that members can benefit from?

In theory, yes, such as it is. I like to write and am fairly good at it, so the idea of contributing articles has some appeal. But it might be something of a quandary whether to submit them to RMNP or the main NPN article section. I’m also a decent editor, and I’d be willing to help other RMNP folks polish their prose.

Would you be willing to get involved with planning and setting up of events such as Shindig, workshops, etc.?

Again, in theory, but parenthood may make it difficult. But if someone were to lead the charge on New Mexico events, I’d do my best to help.

If this was your personal site, what would you do to make it the best darn photography forum on the planet?

If only I knew! I do like the idea of more contests and/or challenges. The weekly topic threads we had a while back were nice, perhaps that concept could be revived. And again, anything we can think of to encourage participation from Montanans, Idahoans, Nevadans, New Mexicans, &c., would be great.

To sum up, I’m still very fond of RNMP, I’ve learned a TON here over the years, and it’s a community I’d like to be more involved with, life permitting.

As a member who ONLY uses the RMNP regional forum I am very grateful that Jim has come up with the $19 regional membership -- its a very logical solution for those of us who don't really benefit from full membership. Like everyone else, I miss the free days, but I think this is a very workable solution. I also want to add that I hope we retain all of the talented people who have participated for so long. I live vicariously through all of the images posted in this forum, since my time to shoot is greatly limited. It would be a big loss to lose the inputs and the experience of people like Jesse and Rich.

Jim, please excuse my totally off the wall example that I tossed out there. it was meant more to prove a point than to be exact, but since you went to the extreme to call me out, lets use some numbers from your other post below. 88,000 visitors, who 2% of are active paying members. That is 1760 active members. Now take that by $50 for the ease of the math and you get $88,000. As you see above, I said over a 3 year period, which this site has been around much longer, but that is the time I have been here. So, 88k X 3 = $264,000. This is based on numbers you yourself provided. So yes I was wrong in my crazy $500k estimate, so lets talk about the more accurate $264k in 3 years. What improvements have been made in that time?

Also, I find it odd that it has to take an event like this to kick you into motion to make some simple changes to file sizes and pixel limitations. I know of 3 events I myself have mentioned this, and if you monitored the forums and galleries, you would see TONS of others complaining about it. It seems to me like you are more interested in shooting people down and getting defensive than taking feedback and making the right moves to keep this forum where it should be.

As far as 500px and other sites are concerned, we can sit here and argue until we are both out of breathe about how they did what they did or how much money they got. What one man can do, another can do. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter. You think Apple computers started writing articles to the public about their situation 20 years ago when they faced distinction? Consumers have options, and if you don't do what it takes to keep up with the times, you will be left behind..that is a fact.

Lastly, the other article is closed down to further posts, but I have to mention this. I don't find it particularly a wise strategy to bad mouth the heavy posters on the galleries who are keeping members here on your site by posting images. Frankly, I find your comment below more than a little offensive, and it further confirms to me why the site is going the direction it is.

"Unfortunately, not much I can do about the groupthink that has deemed using the RMNP gallery as a precursor to a zombie apocalypse"

Wow, get busy and don't check the forum for a few days (maybe longer) and look what happens! Wow!

As another who REALLY appreciates the community this forum has fostered, I have read with interest the thread CAZ started and this one. First, thanks Jack for volunteering to moderate and get more involved. It's been apparent that Richie and Jim have been very busy personally lately, although I'm sure their commitments are only a minor reason the forum has seemed to decline of late. They both have my personal thanks for what they have had the time to do.

I think some of the suggestions made by others and the commitments Jim Erhardt has made will help put some spark back into things here. Personally, this forum has been hugely valuable to my growth as a photographer and has enabled me to do things I'd only dreamed of before like show my work and open a gallery. When I started participating (2005/6?) it was the free, open, honest, and critical critique by Jesse, Todd, Guy and other extremely talented photographers that really accelerated my learning and improvement. That's why I'm still here, to keep getting the critique and feedback to improve my photography and to hopefully help a few others.

I have to side with Jim on the realities of running a site like this, especially if you aren't looking at NPN in the large, not just this forum. Sure the design is a little dated, but the infrastructure, hosting, and storage costs let alone the effort and expertise to keep things running shouldn't be discounted. Sure you can buy a godaddy domain for a dollar, throw a free copy of PhpBB on it, set up all of the security and defaults, and your off and running with your very own forum. But as soon as your free forum on shared hosting starts dominating the bandwidth and demanding gigabytes of growing storage for the archive of photos you're storing, I would wager your host is going to politely ask you to move to a dedicated server ($$). This is tongue in cheek and I don't want to debate the costs of designing and running a site. My opinion is it takes a LOT of time and costs a LOT more money than most people think.

Jesse, Please don't leave! I understand why you've reduced your participation lately, but I REALLY value your membership here and the opportunity to interact outside email. I know others feel the same.

Jack, Good luck. I'll help when and how I can.

Richie, I'd like to see you stay involved too. I enjoy seeing what you've got from your travels and I understand the drain so much travel takes, although I envy your recent destinations. Take a break from moderating and enjoy just being Joe Blow on the forum for awhile. Don't take these threads personally.

Lastly, I think Josh hit on a apropos point. I think I was relatively late to the Facebook craze, but once I jumped into the throng I found my time and efforts to share photography and participate in a community split, and the frenzy of Facebook sometimes took priority. Facebook I view as a marketing medium, while this is a friendly place to interact with fellow photographers. I find the same thing with Google+, I can't even come close to keeping up with that stream. I'm amazed at how viral the photographer participation is there. There's no way I could follow everyone that is following me, but it has opened me and my photography up to a much larger audience (although they are other photographers, not buyers -maybe). So I see those other sites/streams as competitors for my time here that weren't there a couple of years ago. Food for thought.

Later. Guess I need to renew my involvement a bit too.

I agree with Jack, maybe it's time to seal this one and move on. As far as new pics, perhaps we could start with a gallery of the RMNP images that are going to the College Hill show in December. There weren't enough images to requre a vote but there some really nice work there. Heck, they were even desperate enough to take a couple of mine. I don't want to steal Bill P's thunder since he is the driving force behind this show but maybe we could kick off our "new" start by having coffee before or adult beverages after the hanging of the show on Dec 4. What do ya'll think?

JIm, can you please close this thread? I put his up to get a gauge of where the forum wants to go and I've gotten great feedback that we are gonna start working on immediately...beginning with the photo contest! Thank you for your input everyone and feel free to email me through the forum at any time.

Done!