As a long standing FM'er and having been here at NPN for quite a while I (along with a lot of others I have talked to) have noticed the forum(s) slowing down. FM seems half dead compared to a year or so ago. I know 500px is popular, and I know a few others, but wonder where the new GREAT place is becoming. What I really hope is that NPN can stay excellent and more relevant and not have to go other places. But who knows, times change.
Posted by Kent Staubus on January 8, 2012 at 11:41 PM
Does FM = Fred MIraanda? I hang out on there some too, although I'm getting bored with all the gear talk and speculation. Can't speak for others, but in my case winter is my favorite time of year. I love it! I love the snow, frigid temps, harsh conditions. They really inspire me! Problem is, haven't had any of that this winter. Everything is just brown, temps in the 40s. It even hit 62 degrees last week in Marshall MN. Yes, the first week of January! Cripes. I hate it. It's quite uninspiring--I might as well move back to Kansas if it's going to be doing that! I think online photo forums typically do slow down this time of year, and again in July when many are taking vacations. I've been posting here regularly on the new POP photo forum, too. I think things will pick up as temperatures warm. Maybe Jim has some long term history on volume like that.
I wonder if this dovetails with something I've seen in the last year, most recently on a 2-month trip through the Southwest and a few spots in the East. I visited some major photo icons and saw more people than ever taking pictures. But among well over a thousand people taking pictures I saw exactly three DSLR's. About 10% of the total were taking photos with pocket cameras, and the remaining 90% were using smart phones.
Something is afoot when more people than ever are taking photos, but almost no one is using what we consider "normal" gear.
Posted by Kent Staubus on January 9, 2012 at 12:46 AM
Hank may have a point. Those camera phones are posting shots to Facebook, and blogs, not photo forums.
Kent in SD
Posted by Pete Jacks on January 9, 2012 at 3:40 AM
HI to all. Reading the comments I think that most of us go through cycles where they are not feeling creative. I know I sure do.
Sometimes it might be weather related, I live in the rain belt. Pictures of rain drops are not too inspiring. Also these short days and flat light don't help. I would love to see some of that snow that Kent has in SD to make a scene change from Seattle weather.
I know what Hank means about the pocket camera and cell phone people. It does seem like they dominate the market, but I think the group always has. If you think about the pocket small film cameras of the past. These pocket digitals are the evolution. The difference I see is that instead of the picture getting thrown into a shoe box they can see later in life, they get deleted after chimping a couple of times.
Myself, I don’t get to post a lot, but I do keep hanging around in the background for the last ten years. I like to see the creativity of other people and what they have to say. Take care and keep shooting . Pete
Posted by Kent Staubus on January 9, 2012 at 8:38 AM
Sorry Pete, but this has been a very weird winter here. We'e had maybe an inch of snow! Everything is brown. I've either been shooting in b&w or at night, mostly.
Kent in SD
Posted by Jim Bullard on January 9, 2012 at 9:50 AM
No significant snow in NNY near the Quebec border either. I did some trail work (cutting blow down) on the local ski/snowshoe trail yesterday. At most there was 1½" of snow. Under the cedars along the river it was a dusting, not even covering the ground. I shot a total of three photos of a plant sticking through one of the deeper areas of snow. None worth keeping. I shot them with my 'pocket camera', a Canon G11.
NPN and the Large Format site are the only photography sites I participate in. I have noticed a slow-down at NPN over the last year. The LF Forum site is very active, however. Here's my take (two cents)...
I believe that social networking sites, blogs, and text messaging are slowly replacing forums as a way for people to socialize on the Internet, not only for the casual picture taker, but also an increasing number of serious photographers.
With regard to photography specifically, people are finding less of a need for technical help due to the ever-increasing sophistication of apps for smartphones and built-in corrections in small cameras. Also, they are not interested in talking about photography as an art form, or seeking critique of their pictures; all they need is to be able to post their snaps to Facebook et. al. for their family and friends.
The other piece of the equation is cost. People can get pretty decent image quality from a P&S or smartphone, so why would they spend the larger sum (in some cases, much larger) of money for a DSLR unless they are truly interested in photography as an avocation, or vocation?
The weather has certainly been odd this year. There is very little snow at the highest elevations in the Sierra, and CA is very dry. However, I don't expect such conditions to have a long term effect.
My observations are anecdotal because I have no hard statistcs to back them up, but I do see these trends increasing. I also believe that sites such as NPN will continue to be a resource for serious practitioners. Personally, I would like to see more discussion about photography as an art form, issues that affect us, and photographic techniques, and less about gear (although NPN is less gear oriented than other specialty sites).
So, here's my recommendation for those here who only post images, or lurk behind the scenes: Get involved with discussions, or start one. Provide thoughtful critiques of images posted by others and encourage others to do the same by your example. Join a NPN Regional Group and actively participate there. The NPN community will grow and prosper only with your active participation.
I was really struck by this one: "I believe that social networking sites, blogs, and text messaging are slowly replacing forums as a way for people to socialize on the Internet, not only for the casual picture taker, but also an increasing number of serious photographers. "
Local efforts to start photo clubs over the last 30 years have failed miserably. But in the last year one has evolved on Facebook. It's garnered more activity than I imagined possible, both from rank snappers and really serious artists. I'm not a social networker by nature or access to faster connections, but it's been startling to watch the transition in the local "scene."
Posted by Ron Bielefeld on January 9, 2012 at 3:36 PM
I really believe it is social networking that is starting to take a significant toll on sites like NPN. I have started posting to Facebook and believe me that is where "Everybody" is these days. People want people that matter to them to see their pics and social sites is how they are doing it. Most people do not want critiques, but just to be recognized IMO. IMO seasonal lulls and weird weather do not explain the long-term drop-off in posts in the Avian Gallery. Not sure we can expect numbers to rebound as I do not think social networking is a fad, it is here to stay and will only continue to grow as the majority of people become constantly connected over the next decade as mobile devices evolve and become more "necessary" in everyone's lives. Kind of depresses me a bit.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 9, 2012 at 4:11 PM
Ron said;
I really believe it is social networking that is starting to take a significant toll on sites like NPN.
I agree, and it appears all nature sites are in the same boat as I keep an eye on this kind of thing. NPN has actually held the same relative position compared to the other NPN-like sites, but the world is changing and old-fashioned HTML/forum websites will either have to adapt or become obsolete.
Unfortunately, the design criteria for a "mobile site" is a constantly moving target as mobile device technology evolves.
"Unfortunately, the design criteria for a "mobile site" is a constantly moving target as mobile device technology evolves. "
And just today my wife accuse me of devolving!!!!!
Posted by Kent Staubus on January 9, 2012 at 6:45 PM
The problem for me with facebook and blogs etc. is that I just don't have time to "follow" 30+ people. It's more convenient for me to get a sampling of many people from just one forum. I don't want to become one of those people with an expensive phone who is checking facebook every 30 minutes.
Kent in SD
Posted by Ron Bielefeld on January 10, 2012 at 12:40 PM
Ron said:
"People want people that matter to them to see their pics and social sites is how they are doing it. Most people do not want critiques, but just to be recognized IMO."
I agree with this, and I also think that people are flocking to the social networking sites. I am NOT on any of those sites, and NPN is the only photog site I get on regularly. We got onto Facebook to follow a relative, but we intensely dislike what seems to us like an invasion of privacy.
For me, I've been off NPN for the last couple years due to family issues and a lack of time. I went back to work full time and I just don't have much time left over. Posting photos is a hassle for me as the internet is sooooooo slow (28k) on my computer at home. But, I've been more active on NPN lately as my schedule has changed, and I hope to do more.
Posted by beth summer on January 11, 2012 at 8:19 AM
I used to be a very avid participant in NPN (especially Flora) but I started shooting alot of " non-nature" things so I haven't posted much in quite some time. I still follow NPN and still shoot nature now and then. And my time has been limited the last year with grandson, daughter wedding and other family things. And work...and so on.!!! Social networking has definitely played a role in the diminishing participation but I also think that life and priorities change constantly. People come and go but IMO NPN is still THE GREAT place it has always been!!!
Posted by Kent Staubus on January 11, 2012 at 9:29 AM
Beth--
The new POP forum here is just for you! Photos can be anything.
Kent in SD
Posted by Walter Rowe on January 11, 2012 at 9:47 AM
As the owner of www.TravelPhotographers.net I can confirm that we too have seen a dramatic decline in activity in recent years. Some of that decline can be attributed to changes made to the site that weren't quite ready for primetime. We have addressed those and participation actually seems to be on the rise, though slowly. I think social networking sites are the more prominent reason. There people can share their photos with their "friends" without showing the whole world. They also just want to "share" and get funny comments. They are not interested in a critique and growth in their skills and eye for seeing. Who remains on the serious photography sites are the serious shooters that do desire to grow. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.
TPN was born out of NPN and quickly attained the position of being the #1 travel photography site on the internet. Even with our decline in activity we still retain that position in all of the search engines. This supports Jim Erhardt's assertion that NPN itself has remained in the same relative position even with a decline in activity here on NPN. And as I said, TPN is actually seeing a slow, but steady rise in activity from people who desire a place to share their travel photography images with other travelers.
I have noticed the change myself and it is depressing. I see people posting to facebook alot and that is great but I post to the forums for honest critiques to help me get better.I hope our community continues to stay strong and willing to post comments so we can continue to grow as artists but we "all" need to post comments. I myself have gone thru cycles and am trying to stay more consistant. Thanks for those of you who have been helpful in improving my skills.
With the digital age of photography and the increase in photo sharing sites, the competition has grown tremendously. I am not one of the established "big dogs" who makes a living on my photography (though I hope I get that privilege someday) and the competition is huge, especially among landscape photographers. What I've found is I have to get my name and images out there as much as the other guy to even get noticed. This is what sucks up a lot of my time...posting and commenting...establishing and maintaining relationships...all in the hope of putting out a great product that someone will want to buy. And I have made a lot of really great friends who are supportive and that I can get together with for some shooting fun!
I really appreciate NPN because here I know I'm going to get some serious feedback about my shots and have re-edited a number of them because of it. All other sites I post or link to are more of a popularity contest, but a way to get my name out there. I really want to be a great landscape photographer as it's something I have truly loved since I was a kid, and seriously need to make more money from it as this love affair has been killing me financially!
So thanks to all of you on NPN for being here to critique my work and let me know if I'm on the right track. I've just renewed membership and will be posting here more often before putting my shots on other sites because the feedback helps me to put my best out there!
I'm in the same boat as Beth, I haven't had the time to dedicate to true nature photography so a lot of what I've been doing the last few months is focused more on people and events. As a result those photos are more suited to be posted on a place like FB. Though it is a great tool to keep up with old and new friends, people have misplaced the true usefulness of social networking sites, making them a one-stop-shop for all things in their life. But one thing I have noticed is that there has been a slow down in the activity on FB, or at least for my friends. Social networks should be used to enhance one's life not replace it and I think its possible people are finally realizing that.
NPN is a place I can always go back to, that reminds me what I love, even though I may not have time to participate by posting photos or comments but "lurk" as some people call it. I hope to change that though and become more active again because even though I have "real" friends and FB friends, I want more photog friends. They share my passion and can offer advice, and they tend to appreciate more the time, effort and work that photography requires. And they won't compare my DSLR to their smartphone. :)
Posted by David Edwards on January 16, 2012 at 3:31 AM
I have noticed less participation in the Landscape gallery lately, which I thought was people being away on holidays or something, but now I realize I'm not the only one observing this.
I would hate for NPN to become like the more social popularity contest sites like Red Bubble which only pander to peoples ego and don't provide any useful resource for photographers, but I can't really foresee that happening. The big reason I joined this site was to learn and grow, and it has certainly been a wonderful site for that and will remain one of it's biggest strengths.
I think people's time is being more and more stretched as they participate in social networking sites, and so when they jump over to NPN, they may only have limited time to comment on a few of the best shots then move on. I see everyday people constantly toying with their smartphones every spare second they have to check their facebook page or whatever. It's an addiction that has consumed society and will continue shape the way people interact. I have not yet embraced this type of media, but I know it's only a matter of time before I too become consumed
Posted by Jay Patel on January 26, 2012 at 1:52 PM
Jim said:
I agree, and it appears all nature sites are in the same boat as I keep an eye on this kind of thing. NPN has actually held the same relative position compared to the other NPN-like sites, but the world is changing and old-fashioned HTML/forum websites will either have to adapt or become obsolete.
Unfortunately, the design criteria for a "mobile site" is a constantly moving target as mobile device technology evolves.
The challenge to compete with social networking is on 2 fronts: Capabilities of the Site and the Target Audience.
Even if NPN were to revamped with latest and greatest technology it would be hard pressed to compete with features such as HangOuts, Sharing, Embedding Videos and others. For photographers who are looking to advertize their work a platform with advance features offers an enormous potential. To make matters worse for stand alone sites like NPN the search engines are now personalizing searches...so if you are on G+ and your search will include social networking data as well as NON-social networking data...this in turn drive traffic to social networking site.
Target audience just in terms of shear numbers is much greater on social networking sites than at sites like NPN...so if my sole objective is to sell ebooks, fine arts and photography related materials, social networking offers a far larger target audience.
Social networking is a paradigm shift that in making and that will effect lot more than just photography websites like NPN...the best way to survive is go the route of 500Pix - that is to get in bed with a social networking site.
The interesting thing to me about all potential and effort for sales through social networking, it's not working out for any of the photographers we know who are trying it. We're talking very serious, facile users, and they're finding hits don't translate into sales. They report they can get thousands of "tire kickers" and great comments, but NO sales. One is quitting entirely, commenting that her goal in life has nothing to do with being a free online entertainer.
The bigger issue for photo sales I think has nothing to do with venue and marketing method. Along with the downturn in stock prices and sales, the growth in social media without corresponding sales tells me that people simply aren't buying photos in any venue. Along with all the other free stuff on the web, they expect their photos and videos to be free.
"The bigger issue for photo sales I think has nothing to do with venue and marketing method. Along with the downturn in stock prices and sales, the growth in social media without corresponding sales tells me that people simply aren't buying photos in any venue. Along with all the other free stuff on the web, they expect their photos and videos to be free. "
I think Hank's statement pretty much tells the tale. I have a web site and a PhotoPortfolios.net portfolio, but no FaceBook et al, blog, etc.. I've had a few sales over the years off my web site, and none from PhotoPortfolios.net. My best sales results have come from having real prints hanging on real walls, and even these sales have been few. I believe that most people simply do not have the descretionary cash to purchase artwork.
Over the years I have had folks ask me for images for free, saying they will give me photo credit. I have also asked people to remove my images that were used without permission from web sites. I also know similar scenarios have happened to other NPN members, so I think this supports Hank's statement that people expect their photographs to be given to them without cost.
One thing is for sure, though; it will be very interesting to see where things go over the next couple of years!
It's interesting to us from the business standpoint, that the market is still good for photos that do not exist. By that, I mean clients who need unique photos specific to their own uses (whether portraits, events, advertising, technical or scientific) are willing to hire someone to take them. And in our experience, the influence of a slow economy is more on volume than pricing. We tried lowering our rates to stimulate sales, but without noticeable effect. Restoring our rates did not result in reduced sales, and with the recent slow upturn in the economy we're seeing a corresponding upturn in our own sales. The slower economy certainly cut the number of clients, but not the rates. Even when our clients "make do" with photos a little longer rather than refreshing with new, it's okay because of our licensing.
That could change overnight if people started doing contract photography for free as in stock, but I don't see that happening.
Come to think of it, the exception to low stock sales is also in photos that do not exist. I.e., if you have photos of a unique place or event that exist nowhere else, you won't have any trouble selling them. But that's the challenge for today's stock shooters. Original photos of original subjects are hard to come up with.
Discussion
25 repliesAs a long standing FM'er and having been here at NPN for quite a while I (along with a lot of others I have talked to) have noticed the forum(s) slowing down. FM seems half dead compared to a year or so ago. I know 500px is popular, and I know a few others, but wonder where the new GREAT place is becoming. What I really hope is that NPN can stay excellent and more relevant and not have to go other places. But who knows, times change.
Kent in SD
Something is afoot when more people than ever are taking photos, but almost no one is using what we consider "normal" gear.
Kent in SD
Sometimes it might be weather related, I live in the rain belt. Pictures of rain drops are not too inspiring. Also these short days and flat light don't help. I would love to see some of that snow that Kent has in SD to make a scene change from Seattle weather.
I know what Hank means about the pocket camera and cell phone people. It does seem like they dominate the market, but I think the group always has. If you think about the pocket small film cameras of the past. These pocket digitals are the evolution. The difference I see is that instead of the picture getting thrown into a shoe box they can see later in life, they get deleted after chimping a couple of times.
Myself, I don’t get to post a lot, but I do keep hanging around in the background for the last ten years. I like to see the creativity of other people and what they have to say. Take care and keep shooting . Pete
Kent in SD
I believe that social networking sites, blogs, and text messaging are slowly replacing forums as a way for people to socialize on the Internet, not only for the casual picture taker, but also an increasing number of serious photographers.
With regard to photography specifically, people are finding less of a need for technical help due to the ever-increasing sophistication of apps for smartphones and built-in corrections in small cameras. Also, they are not interested in talking about photography as an art form, or seeking critique of their pictures; all they need is to be able to post their snaps to Facebook et. al. for their family and friends.
The other piece of the equation is cost. People can get pretty decent image quality from a P&S or smartphone, so why would they spend the larger sum (in some cases, much larger) of money for a DSLR unless they are truly interested in photography as an avocation, or vocation?
The weather has certainly been odd this year. There is very little snow at the highest elevations in the Sierra, and CA is very dry. However, I don't expect such conditions to have a long term effect.
My observations are anecdotal because I have no hard statistcs to back them up, but I do see these trends increasing. I also believe that sites such as NPN will continue to be a resource for serious practitioners. Personally, I would like to see more discussion about photography as an art form, issues that affect us, and photographic techniques, and less about gear (although NPN is less gear oriented than other specialty sites).
So, here's my recommendation for those here who only post images, or lurk behind the scenes: Get involved with discussions, or start one. Provide thoughtful critiques of images posted by others and encourage others to do the same by your example. Join a NPN Regional Group and actively participate there. The NPN community will grow and prosper only with your active participation.
Preston 'a ten year NPN habitue' Birdwell
I was really struck by this one: "I believe that social networking sites, blogs, and text messaging are slowly replacing forums as a way for people to socialize on the Internet, not only for the casual picture taker, but also an increasing number of serious photographers. "
Local efforts to start photo clubs over the last 30 years have failed miserably. But in the last year one has evolved on Facebook. It's garnered more activity than I imagined possible, both from rank snappers and really serious artists. I'm not a social networker by nature or access to faster connections, but it's been startling to watch the transition in the local "scene."
Unfortunately, the design criteria for a "mobile site" is a constantly moving target as mobile device technology evolves.
And just today my wife accuse me of devolving!!!!!
Kent in SD
"People want people that matter to them to see their pics and social sites is how they are doing it. Most people do not want critiques, but just to be recognized IMO."
I agree with this, and I also think that people are flocking to the social networking sites. I am NOT on any of those sites, and NPN is the only photog site I get on regularly. We got onto Facebook to follow a relative, but we intensely dislike what seems to us like an invasion of privacy.
For me, I've been off NPN for the last couple years due to family issues and a lack of time. I went back to work full time and I just don't have much time left over.
The new POP forum here is just for you! Photos can be anything.
Kent in SD
TPN was born out of NPN and quickly attained the position of being the #1 travel photography site on the internet. Even with our decline in activity we still retain that position in all of the search engines. This supports Jim Erhardt's assertion that NPN itself has remained in the same relative position even with a decline in activity here on NPN. And as I said, TPN is actually seeing a slow, but steady rise in activity from people who desire a place to share their travel photography images with other travelers.
I really appreciate NPN because here I know I'm going to get some serious feedback about my shots and have re-edited a number of them because of it. All other sites I post or link to are more of a popularity contest, but a way to get my name out there. I really want to be a great landscape photographer as it's something I have truly loved since I was a kid, and seriously need to make more money from it as this love affair has been killing me financially!
So thanks to all of you on NPN for being here to critique my work and let me know if I'm on the right track. I've just renewed membership and will be posting here more often before putting my shots on other sites because the feedback helps me to put my best out there!
NPN is a place I can always go back to, that reminds me what I love, even though I may not have time to participate by posting photos or comments but "lurk" as some people call it. I hope to change that though and become more active again because even though I have "real" friends and FB friends, I want more photog friends. They share my passion and can offer advice, and they tend to appreciate more the time, effort and work that photography requires. And they won't compare my DSLR to their smartphone. :)
I would hate for NPN to become like the more social popularity contest sites like Red Bubble which only pander to peoples ego and don't provide any useful resource for photographers, but I can't really foresee that happening. The big reason I joined this site was to learn and grow, and it has certainly been a wonderful site for that and will remain one of it's biggest strengths.
I think people's time is being more and more stretched as they participate in social networking sites, and so when they jump over to NPN, they may only have limited time to comment on a few of the best shots then move on. I see everyday people constantly toying with their smartphones every spare second they have to check their facebook page or whatever. It's an addiction that has consumed society and will continue shape the way people interact. I have not yet embraced this type of media, but I know it's only a matter of time before I too become consumed
The challenge to compete with social networking is on 2 fronts: Capabilities of the Site and the Target Audience.
Even if NPN were to revamped with latest and greatest technology it would be hard pressed to compete with features such as HangOuts, Sharing, Embedding Videos and others. For photographers who are looking to advertize their work a platform with advance features offers an enormous potential. To make matters worse for stand alone sites like NPN the search engines are now personalizing searches...so if you are on G+ and your search will include social networking data as well as NON-social networking data...this in turn drive traffic to social networking site.
Target audience just in terms of shear numbers is much greater on social networking sites than at sites like NPN...so if my sole objective is to sell ebooks, fine arts and photography related materials, social networking offers a far larger target audience.
Social networking is a paradigm shift that in making and that will effect lot more than just photography websites like NPN...the best way to survive is go the route of 500Pix - that is to get in bed with a social networking site.
Just my 2c...
The bigger issue for photo sales I think has nothing to do with venue and marketing method. Along with the downturn in stock prices and sales, the growth in social media without corresponding sales tells me that people simply aren't buying photos in any venue. Along with all the other free stuff on the web, they expect their photos and videos to be free.
I think Hank's statement pretty much tells the tale. I have a web site and a PhotoPortfolios.net portfolio, but no FaceBook et al, blog, etc.. I've had a few sales over the years off my web site, and none from PhotoPortfolios.net. My best sales results have come from having real prints hanging on real walls, and even these sales have been few. I believe that most people simply do not have the descretionary cash to purchase artwork.
Over the years I have had folks ask me for images for free, saying they will give me photo credit. I have also asked people to remove my images that were used without permission from web sites. I also know similar scenarios have happened to other NPN members, so I think this supports Hank's statement that people expect their photographs to be given to them without cost.
One thing is for sure, though; it will be very interesting to see where things go over the next couple of years!
--P
That could change overnight if people started doing contract photography for free as in stock, but I don't see that happening.
Come to think of it, the exception to low stock sales is also in photos that do not exist. I.e., if you have photos of a unique place or event that exist nowhere else, you won't have any trouble selling them. But that's the challenge for today's stock shooters. Original photos of original subjects are hard to come up with.