Posted by John Robinson on February 15, 2012 at 8:57 PM
OK - lets be honest- something is wrong. Look at the posts and comments over the past few weeks and it will be seen to be pretty obvious. I say "wrong" but I mean "very different " compared with the old days- such as last year even ! It,s no good the mods saying things go "up and down " - because at the moment its down, and down. I know its not just me with this view. We all know quite a few have left- but surely there needs to be an attempt to find out why. There must be a fairly simple explanation.
Would it not be simply to ask those past members why they have not continued their support ?
I post as often as I can (every day ) and I may have the misguided idea that I am helping things to keep going. But it seems to be counter productive, with an almost complete lack of interest apart from the "faithfull few" !!As I have already said, one only has to look at the statistics over the past few months.
I am sure admin would like some ideas and comments with regard to what has happened and how to solve the problem.
JR
Posted by Bob Johnson on February 16, 2012 at 3:50 AM
Not sure what the answer is here John. Since you last raised this subject I have certainly made more of an effort to post & comment and I do appreciate the few comments that do come along re my own posts. Most posts get lots of views but few comments which I find hard to fathom. A simple 'nice one' and a smiley face would be better than nowt! Perhaps the 75 people who have viewed this post so far without comment should put in a bit of effort to the forum
I can tell you that two of the once regular contributors are extremely busy with work and moving houses etc at the moment. In fact they are struggling to get out with their cameras let alone spend time on the forum.
I totally agree John. It appears to be a very small core of people who are posting or commenting at the moment. I too have tried to increase the number of images I have posted, including quite a few technically sub standard (but hopefully interesting) images which I thought might have drawn comments on how to improve them. It was always the constructive criticism on my pictures which attracted me to this forum as that was what I wanted to help me improve. Likewise I have always tried to offer constructive critique on other peoples images. As the standard on here is, and always has been, high I can easily see why a lot of comments now are of the 'very nice', 'like it' type. When faced with consistently good pictures it can be difficult to find anything new to say and I have done it myself on numerous occasions. Don't get me wrong, if someone feels like saying they like a picture of mine without adding anything else then I'm quite happy with that, after all we all want our work to be appreciated, but if someone doesn't like a picture . . . tell me. I won't be offended.
I don't have as much time to actually take photos as I would like so I can also understand individuals having a 'lull' in their production of pictures to post but surely in this day and age when images are taken by their thousands we all have an old one or two that can be put up.
I for one was delighted when JIm introduced the lower rate membership as it meant I could again afford to re-join and I thought it may have attracted many more new recruits or encourage other old members to return. Jim has done his bit so it's up to us.
As well as using the forum for critique purposes perhaps we should use it for discussion a bit more?
I certainly don't know the answers but I hope that there will be some improvement soon.
John, this comes up at least once a year, and I too aired my thoughts, albeit rather vocally elsewhere on the Forum a year ago and have subsequently not posted on UKNPN since and this will be my one & only.
For once, the 'Old days' were good, as the contributors could actually do a Critique on a posting, because of their experience, wealth of knowledge and were respected people both in & out of the Forum and I for one learnt a lot in the early days. The standards were high, but we all had to start somewhere. For me, having 'nice image' means nothing, it's a token reply from which you learn nothing considering this is/was a Critique Forum and a place to develop.
My only thought would be, ask those who have not posted/left why? From the reply (if any) only then can you understand how to address the issue(s) and perhaps get closure on this never ending chapter.
Good luck, but somehow I think it will be the same old feedback with no real way forward.
Posted by Ian Mason on February 16, 2012 at 5:34 AM
Yes, something is wrong - very wrong - desperately wrong. I haven’t analysed the stats, but it seems to me that posts, views, comments and view to comment ratios are all markedly down. Reverting to the old format hasn’t helped. I agree that it is a very small group now that is actively involved. Maybe the format that has served us so well until recently, is no longer attractive to people.
Over the past couple of years, I have accepted invitations to join two groups of around 30 people in each to share digital images and prints for critique. There is an obligation to post an image once a month and to comment on every post. One group has been going strong for over 100 years! Maybe people have too many alternative fora to choose from? Maybe they just like looking at “nice” images.
I do accept many people have different pressures upon them. On the other hand, I believe there is an increasing number of people who have more time on their hands and are using it to produce top class nature images. Photography is a discipline in which performance and quality can and often do improve with increasing age. So there is a vast amount of interest and talent around - how can we encourage people?
This forum, in conjunction with the parent site, has undoubtedly been a huge inspiration to me over the the years, but in all honesty, I do now find it a bit of a chore to contribute - that is ominous. It was particularly demoralising to note that nobody posted an image at all one day. I do wish things would improve, as I think we are on the brink.....
I don’t have the answers, but I hope somebody does.
ps. Steve
I couldn't find the archive of your previous comments. Why don't you post/comment now?
Hi Steve, you state that you haven't posted or commented on this forum for a year or so and if I have read it correctly it would appear that you haven't because the standards of either (A) the critique or (B) the postings or (C) both, have declined to such an extent that you don't feel it's worth joining in. However, (given that you obviously read John's post) even after a year you would appear to be still taking a look at whats going on. My question would be ..... If you have no intention of joining in then what keeps you coming back to look? This isn't a dig or anything, just an attempt to get some genuine info for this decline.
I do remember that you considered the addition of a larger posting facility to be a positive. What do you think can be done to improve things?
Posted by John Robinson on February 16, 2012 at 7:11 AM
Steve
I agree, saying "nice image" as you say, does,nt prove a lot but does it not say that at least there is not too much wrong - which is surely a form of critique. The fact that someone has taken the time to look and comment, however brief, in my mind conveys a pleasant atmosphere if nothing else.
The thing I did'nt emphasise which someone else has raised is the fact that the pictures get so many views. Why do all those people out there bother to look ??
JR
Posted by Jeroen Stel on February 16, 2012 at 7:55 AM
Hi John,
I see your point and all i can say is that it is happening on each and every other forum. Times are changing and also people are busy busy busy...
It's just how things are and i guess that you should just make the best of it with those photographers that do enjoy looking at eachothers work and giving honoust critique. It might change a little after reading your topic but i promiss you that next year round this time we might be having the same discussion i am affraid..
In my case it's because of my health issues and often being abroad that i cannot always participate and in other cases it might be something else but in the end there still is a stronghold of photographers out here looking at one anothers work.
Let's just enjoy the work still being posted out here and do what we have been doing over the years and that is improving eachothers skills through honoust critique.
All the best,
Jeroen Stel
Posted by Bob Johnson on February 16, 2012 at 8:23 AM
I dont know Steve but from memory he was posting some good stuff and is obviously an experienced photographer. Surely people like Steve leaving the forum is the main problem as we miss the lack the input from him and other notables such as Danny Green. They need to be asked why they left.
I look at the site for ideas, tips and inspiration from the stuff that is posted and I now try to post things that are a little different in order to prompt more constructive comment. I am guilty of saying 'nice one' sometimes but that is because I try to comment on as many posts as I can but often there is nothing more to say about a sharp bird on a stick that is well composed, well exposed and has a great BG. I really enjoyed Roberts posts about his Otters but it was difficult for me to offer advice so I just stuck to encouragement. At least I recognised the effort that he was putting into the project and commented on each one to that effect.
Perhaps if people tried to post more varied and interesting shots that would draw good comments rather than the moderately interesting but technically perfect shots then the forum would be all the better? People like Steve are obviously still stopping bye now and again and then they would perhaps be tempted to get back involved
Bob
ps. I am in Tanzania for a chunk of March so please do not think that I have also jumped ship when the comments and psots stop for a while
Posted by David Taylor on February 16, 2012 at 9:16 AM
Since discovering the third dimension in photography, all 2D images (mine included) are appearing increasingly flat.. So much so that that I have lost the thrill I once had in looking at them. I can appreciate the skill and dedication that it takes to produce the majority of images shown here, but the two-dimensional result just does not do it for me anymore.
I would love for you all to view my 3D images as they appear on my W3's screen. Everyone, and I mean everyone, is amazed when they see the results. Until it is possible to see them in all their 3D glory on everbody's monitors I will continue submitting anaglyphs and put up with the dearth of comments (thanks to those very few who do take the trouble to comment).
Innovation and experimentation keeps those grey cells alive!!
I wonder if it will be a NPN photographer who is the first human to photograph an extra-terrrestrial species. http://www.seti.org/
Posted by Bob Johnson on February 16, 2012 at 9:45 AM
I thought that I would post the following which was emailed to me by a friend who whilst not a member is a regular visitor to the forum. My friend is a good photographer who's opinions I respect and who also knows a few other forum members past & present.
Hi Bob
I've been reading the "This Forum" article with interest.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of people left because it all got a bit fractious. Cliques formed and it polarized the forum, certain individuals would completely ignore others posts. Things got way out of hand with friendly suggestions being taken as personal insults etc etc ........the demise of the forum was inevitable.
Anyway it doesn't really matter what the reasons are for the forums decline, unless something radical is done its complete collapse is only a matter of time.
The ship is holed and taking on water, no one is going to buy a ticket for passage on this old ship. Not when there are glitzy new ships like 500px offering free passage. Granted 500px is a "no frills carrier". But let’s face it who is going to pay a single penny to get 4 comments on a image. If the forum is to survive it needs members and it needs them now, it needs to lure them back by offering a free membership for a period of time, and then if it becomes the palace that it once was you can re-introduce charging.
In the meantime asking for anything other than an optional donation will doom this ship to the ocean floor.
Bob
PS I bought a set of three dee glasses so that I could check out the 3D pics posted here. Unfortunately it was bit shaky as I am a spectacles man and have to squeeze them over my specs. So whilst i can see the effect a little bit it is not a good solution for me. I look forward to an app that allows me to look at them on my Mac screen
Posted by Barry Southon on February 16, 2012 at 11:31 AM
Bob's friend is a shrewed cookie sums up the situation well.
The "CLIQUES" killed it. We are not blessed with a lifetimes knowledege. Some wish to learn and the forum was a great inspiration and learning tool.
Your friend makes a point Bob. There certainly were a few cliques on here and it could be off-putting for others but that is human nature.
The one thing I find puzzling is this; after a quick look through some of the other forums on this site it would appear that UKNP consistently attracts the highest viewing figures . . . more so than the others. If viewing on here is so popular why wouldn't photographers want to post? Do they consider their work too good to post? do they consider their work inadequate to post? do they think the critique is too harsh? would they rather post somewhere that attracts comments from non-photographic viewers who are more easily impressed? I suspect there would be a sample of all these among the viewers.
The cost is one thing and I know from personal experience that this can be an issue but then that was partly addressed by the cheaper rate offered.
I really don't know the answers but I do know I will miss the opportunity to share my pictures with like minded photographers if this forum dissappears:
Posted by Malcolm Muir on February 16, 2012 at 12:55 PM
Feeling guilty now as I love this forum and would really regret its passing. Increasing workload an a lousy past summer, however, both conspired to keep me away from my camera and off the forum. I will make a point of checking and commenting more often.
Posted by Nick Mckeown on February 16, 2012 at 1:18 PM
As a relatively new member I am not sure if my opinions will count for very much but here goes....... I used to view the photos on NPN for quite a while before I summed up the courage to post my own images, I do not know whether my viewing as a non-member counted or not. If it does then that would explain the high numbers of views and low posts. I think that the images posted on this forum are of a very high standard (I do not include myself in this) so maybe that is putting people off from posting because they feel unable to offer a meaningful comment. There are some posters whose images are technically very good and then you are in the realms of nit picking or just saying "nice image" and it is difficult to say anything that is called critique. I joined when the cheap rate came in and also because I could see that it was flagging and I hope my images have provided some input. It is also quite difficult in finding images that are a little unusual and I admit I tend to choose my best images for what they are worth. I post my images to see if others think it is a good image i.e. well composed, exposed etc and hope to learn from the comments but others will want to look only as I did before joining. I do not know how many members posted in its heyday but even then I am willing to bet there was a hard core who posted images and comments regularly and others who didn't but the forum seems to be in a spiral just now because as fewer people post comments so people post fewer images and so on and so on until it fizzles out or until there are only two posting. I have the Dunkirk spirit and will continue posting until the end if that is what happens.
Nick.
Posted by Bob Johnson on February 16, 2012 at 1:27 PM
Nick does his self a disservice as I think that his pics are excellent but it would be good to see more of his other work even if less technically good. If we can get more people like Malcolm back on board that would be excellent.
So come on you lookers and get involved
Bob
Posted by Dawn Monrose on February 16, 2012 at 1:51 PM
Hi Folks,
I only post on here intermittently, as you know. My reason is of course my job - while I try to fit as much photography in as possible, it isn't always easy.
I think from the comments above we are getting close to the problem. How can UKNP compete with sites like 500px?
I am tending to think that stipulating everyone must offer a full critique might be putting some people off commenting. Sometimes an image is just great, with nothing to be done to improve it, and I don't see any harm in saying so. This is still of value as it helps to boost peoples confidence. I have noticed that great shots get more comments than shots that need improvement. I always find this a bit disappointing, as I want to know what could done to improve it! There's a great article about how to give constructive critique around here somewhere. Maybe we need to ease up a bit, and just encourage people to post and comment, even if it is just 'nice shot' - gradually as people get to know each other better, they'll feel more confident in giving critique.
Didn't there used to be a 30 day free trial? Maybe they could do that again?
UKNP photo of the month competition?
Sorry for the long post, just my thoughts!
Got tomorrow off work - yay!
Posted by Paul Whippey on February 16, 2012 at 3:32 PM
Hi everyone,
I'm a recent member just like Nick, but I've already seen this forum go through peaks and troughs. I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is, but I'm certain its in some way related to the cost of membership. These are not good times for anyone financially and luxuries such as forum fees can be the first thing to go when the purse strings tighten.
I've not been as active posting due to the weather being absolutely atrocious, or when the weather has been good, I've had work pressures. I have been making the most of it though, my trail camera has seen lots of use in the pursuit of suitable habitats, but my SLR has sadly been gathering dust.
I do like the idea of monthly contests or a "photo of the month". As a relative beginner I would welcome this sort of feature.
It would be an absolute shame if this site did sink. I for one have learned an incredible amount since I joined.
Just my 2p.
Thanks.
Posted by Barry Southon on February 16, 2012 at 4:02 PM
Times are hard the world over we have been there before and come out of it. With the UKNP situation I think we all need to lighten up be constructive rather than look for past problems or lay blame.
A double dose of humour would go a long way why not have a monthly project as suggested. One other crucial point is the high quality that prevails, this can hold people back not in my case. So why not a few cock ups or near misses they may well add a lighter touch.It also adds to the learning curve.
A few laughs and cock ups Barry? Get your laughing tackle round this cock up. So excited I forgot I had the camera set for one shot focus . . . . ha ha (and there doesn't appear to be an emoticon of me crying or that would be on this as well!!!!)
Posted by Nick Mckeown on February 16, 2012 at 5:46 PM
I feel your pain Robert!
Nick.
Posted by Barry Southon on February 16, 2012 at 7:48 PM
Robert
Just what I meant fantastic I'm still chuckling and on my second pint. What a smashing cockup and not a bad image to boot.
There you go mods "Cock up of the month" we are only human after all.
" Cock up of the Month ". Now I like the sound of that Barry. At last . . . a photo competition I'd be in with a chance of winning !
Posted by Rene de Heer on February 17, 2012 at 6:40 AM
This topic has been addressed on a number of occasions including by myself. I was a member for a long time and i really enjoyed this forum but at the end i got sick and tired of the attitude of a number of participants who basically covered each other ....i could add a word but i will not ... and were almost solely commenting on each other images, i once came across someone who logged on for 5 minutes, solely to comment on one image of his mate! Surely that isn't right. I think this should also have been addressed by the moderators. Or is the roll of a moderator solely to police this forum to avoid heated debates?
If you look for example at the European forum at Naturescapes, you will see that traffic is much lower then on this forum. So surly something must be right?
And yes i don't think charging helps either. Although i think paying £12 isn't that much.
Most of the clique has left and maybe it is healthier for this forum. I have decided to renew my membership and will try (in between my hectic travel schedule) to participate. As soon as i notice that this forum is going the way it was, i will say goodbye!
Anyway, my 2 cents.
Good luck
Rene de Heer
Posted by John Robinson on February 17, 2012 at 7:08 AM
Been asked to put this on from a past member
Dear All,
Just to add my two penny worth to the forum discussion.
From my point of view I just do not think that the UKNP is worth paying for at any level! As has been mentioned there are number of sites out there that people can post images that cost absolutely nothing and a number of us are regularly posting on these sites including, but not limited to, 500px.
I can also confirm that 500px at least has offered far more exposure of our work to the wider community with a good number of individual photographers (former UKNP members) being recognised by the National Press and Media. The result is an actual income for the shots obtained without having to pay for a forum such as this. I can confirm that at least one of my friends, a former UKNP member, has recently obtained about £1.5k work of sales from a damselfly image across the globe.
In the few years that we were members of the forum we never experienced such interest in our craft and subsequent publications.
On another note, many photographers have found that regular customers of their work just simply follow their antics on sites such as Facebook and Twitter with the event of 'Fan Pages'. This, together with the expenses of their own websites means that there is little room for contributions to forums such as UKNP that offer nothing in return apart from a good community of fellow photographers. However, we can easily communicate on other sites that are FREE...!
I think many of us would happily contribute more often if the site was free. Certainly in my case, I am not prepared to pay, even the reduced rate, to simply post comments. I still enjoy viewing people's work and like to follow the various projects including John's pools and Robert's Otters etc.. In terms of inspirational photography etc, 500 px does offer some world class imagery that is not matched by any other site I have come across and I do find a lot of inspiration for my personal photography on that site. That said, it does not offer the personal contacts that I have made over the years of being on UKNP and for that I am very grateful. That said, if I want to pay to communicate I will simply pick up the phone, that or simply track them down on Facebook or by email etc..
I think that the regional NPN (UKNP) sites should be free to access and the international ones by subscritpion. I think the costs associated with this can be met through appropriate advertising etc.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts and if you are interested in what I've been up to then drop by and view some of my work at http://500px.com/BrettLewis
I do enjoy viewing your work and would happily comment and offer my own critiques but I'm not prepared to pay in order to do so. Put another way - the cost of the reduced UKNP forum is comparable to me replacing 4 new dormouse boxes each year as part of my ongoing studies. No brainer really..!
Best wishes to you all and keep taking great photos.
Brett
Posted by Nick Mckeown on February 17, 2012 at 7:11 AM
Rene has made a good point about other forums and traffic. I just spent 10 minutes checking on all the other forums and they all have worse numbers of comments per viewings than the UK site, the only exception being the Rocky Mountain site. One post had 1,350 views but still only 66 comments and the post was about a meeting! Many posts on the other forums are getting less than 5 comments with over 100 views so it is not unique to the UK site. I do not know why this should be unless as I say non-members viewing the posts are counted.
Nick.
Posted by Nick Mckeown on February 17, 2012 at 8:15 AM
I can see Bretts point but it seems a bit mercenary to me. I am not a pro photographer so I respect that viewpoint but £12/year is not a lot by todays standards - 4 pints of guiness, many people spend that and more in a night and then p**s it up a wall! Curiosity got the better of me so I registered on 500px and whilst it is free to join to get the better portfolio and unlimited uploads is $50/year so there is no such thing as a free lunch. The comments are pretty uninspiring on the whole and not all photographers leave tech details. I got the feeling that there will be no sense of camaraderie on this site and it did not feel that user friendly to me. Having said that some of the images are superb and I saw some ex members names there and even Andy Rouse is there. I will pop into this site to look see and may start leaving comments but I for one will keep with this site and if I have to forgo 4 pints of guiness then I will.
Nick.
Posted by Bob Johnson on February 17, 2012 at 10:22 AM
Crikey Nick where are you drinking? The black stuff is £3.50 at my local Good job I guzzle London pride at £3 One night out of the pub and thats my NPN fees paid
Nick is correct about camararderie though as I would happily pay my £12 for the banter available on this site
Bob
Posted by Nick Mckeown on February 17, 2012 at 10:37 AM
Admit the last time I partook of a pint of the black stuff in a pub was a while ago Bob. Have uploaded some of my previous images onto the 500pix website to see what happens. Very easy to do. Interesting to see what the comments are (if any!) compared to this site. Interesting that all my images had the tech stuff with the photo and yet other photos don't.
Nick.
Posted by Paul Whippey on February 17, 2012 at 1:11 PM
Hi all,
I'm also on 500px. Its all bells and whistles, but useless for amateurs wanting to progress or wanting greater exposure of their work IMHO. Its been very difficult to get any views or comments on the site recently. When I first joined I had a fair amount of photos on the front pages, not any longer. The comments are nice but one liners typically. The dislike feature is nonsense and has apparently been abused. I only use it for showing my portfolio, but I'll be leaving once my website is finished.
NPN is leagues ahead as a learning resource.
Just my opinions of course.
Thanks.
Posted by Rene de Heer on February 17, 2012 at 1:39 PM
I don't like 500px that much, it isn't a "critique forum" as such, it is a way to exhibit your images and of course exhibit yourself. I know a number of photographers who basically expose themselves to every and any forum available on the planet, i suppose they expect to get a lot of recognition that way. I visit this one , my own Facebook page and at times Twitter but I get tired at times of the "hidden advertisement"......but it can be useful at times as well.
Ener1
Posted by Matt Cole on February 17, 2012 at 5:44 PM
I have little to add really other than the fact that I still don't know of any other site where you can get honest critique on your images. Yes, there are times when comments are hard to come by but there is normally at least a handful of individuals who are likely to provide some honest feedback. I would hate to see this site fall by the wayside.
500px is more for showcasing really and certainly doesn't provide critique. Plus I suspect its rapid growth in recent months will inevitably lead to disatisfaction as it becomes harder and harder for images to get any attention.
I'll certainly be posting more images here once spring arrives.
Matt
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 17, 2012 at 9:02 PM
This must be the latest "what's wrong with this forum" thread.
IMO, these threads are counter-productive. It's like picking at a scab - the more you pick, the uglier it gets.
We apprciate your input and ideas on how to improve what we do. In the future, please send your suggestions/concerns directly to me or Nick. I'm closing this one down and will inform Nick to delete all others like this in the future.
Discussion
32 repliesWould it not be simply to ask those past members why they have not continued their support ?
I post as often as I can (every day ) and I may have the misguided idea that I am helping things to keep going. But it seems to be counter productive, with an almost complete lack of interest apart from the "faithfull few" !!As I have already said, one only has to look at the statistics over the past few months.
I am sure admin would like some ideas and comments with regard to what has happened and how to solve the problem.
JR
I can tell you that two of the once regular contributors are extremely busy with work and moving houses etc at the moment. In fact they are struggling to get out with their cameras let alone spend time on the forum.
Bob
I don't have as much time to actually take photos as I would like so I can also understand individuals having a 'lull' in their production of pictures to post but surely in this day and age when images are taken by their thousands we all have an old one or two that can be put up.
I for one was delighted when JIm introduced the lower rate membership as it meant I could again afford to re-join and I thought it may have attracted many more new recruits or encourage other old members to return. Jim has done his bit so it's up to us.
As well as using the forum for critique purposes perhaps we should use it for discussion a bit more?
I certainly don't know the answers but I hope that there will be some improvement soon.
For once, the 'Old days' were good, as the contributors could actually do a Critique on a posting, because of their experience, wealth of knowledge and were respected people both in & out of the Forum and I for one learnt a lot in the early days. The standards were high, but we all had to start somewhere. For me, having 'nice image' means nothing, it's a token reply from which you learn nothing considering this is/was a Critique Forum and a place to develop.
My only thought would be, ask those who have not posted/left why? From the reply (if any) only then can you understand how to address the issue(s) and perhaps get closure on this never ending chapter.
Good luck, but somehow I think it will be the same old feedback with no real way forward.
Over the past couple of years, I have accepted invitations to join two groups of around 30 people in each to share digital images and prints for critique. There is an obligation to post an image once a month and to comment on every post. One group has been going strong for over 100 years! Maybe people have too many alternative fora to choose from? Maybe they just like looking at “nice” images.
I do accept many people have different pressures upon them. On the other hand, I believe there is an increasing number of people who have more time on their hands and are using it to produce top class nature images. Photography is a discipline in which performance and quality can and often do improve with increasing age. So there is a vast amount of interest and talent around - how can we encourage people?
This forum, in conjunction with the parent site, has undoubtedly been a huge inspiration to me over the the years, but in all honesty, I do now find it a bit of a chore to contribute - that is ominous. It was particularly demoralising to note that nobody posted an image at all one day. I do wish things would improve, as I think we are on the brink.....
I don’t have the answers, but I hope somebody does.
ps. Steve
I couldn't find the archive of your previous comments. Why don't you post/comment now?
I do remember that you considered the addition of a larger posting facility to be a positive. What do you think can be done to improve things?
I agree, saying "nice image" as you say, does,nt prove a lot but does it not say that at least there is not too much wrong - which is surely a form of critique. The fact that someone has taken the time to look and comment, however brief, in my mind conveys a pleasant atmosphere if nothing else.
The thing I did'nt emphasise which someone else has raised is the fact that the pictures get so many views. Why do all those people out there bother to look ??
JR
I see your point and all i can say is that it is happening on each and every other forum. Times are changing and also people are busy busy busy...
It's just how things are and i guess that you should just make the best of it with those photographers that do enjoy looking at eachothers work and giving honoust critique. It might change a little after reading your topic but i promiss you that next year round this time we might be having the same discussion i am affraid..
In my case it's because of my health issues and often being abroad that i cannot always participate and in other cases it might be something else but in the end there still is a stronghold of photographers out here looking at one anothers work.
Let's just enjoy the work still being posted out here and do what we have been doing over the years and that is improving eachothers skills through honoust critique.
All the best,
Jeroen Stel
I look at the site for ideas, tips and inspiration from the stuff that is posted and I now try to post things that are a little different in order to prompt more constructive comment. I am guilty of saying 'nice one' sometimes but that is because I try to comment on as many posts as I can but often there is nothing more to say about a sharp bird on a stick that is well composed, well exposed and has a great BG. I really enjoyed Roberts posts about his Otters but it was difficult for me to offer advice so I just stuck to encouragement. At least I recognised the effort that he was putting into the project and commented on each one to that effect.
Perhaps if people tried to post more varied and interesting shots that would draw good comments rather than the moderately interesting but technically perfect shots then the forum would be all the better? People like Steve are obviously still stopping bye now and again and then they would perhaps be tempted to get back involved
Bob
ps. I am in Tanzania for a chunk of March so please do not think that I have also jumped ship when the comments and psots stop for a while
I would love for you all to view my 3D images as they appear on my W3's screen. Everyone, and I mean everyone, is amazed when they see the results. Until it is possible to see them in all their 3D glory on everbody's monitors I will continue submitting anaglyphs and put up with the dearth of comments (thanks to those very few who do take the trouble to comment).
Innovation and experimentation keeps those grey cells alive!!
I wonder if it will be a NPN photographer who is the first human to photograph an extra-terrrestrial species.
http://www.seti.org/
Hi Bob
I've been reading the "This Forum" article with interest.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of people left because it all got a bit fractious. Cliques formed and it polarized the forum, certain individuals would completely ignore others posts. Things got way out of hand with friendly suggestions being taken as personal insults etc etc ........the demise of the forum was inevitable.
Anyway it doesn't really matter what the reasons are for the forums decline, unless something radical is done its complete collapse is only a matter of time.
The ship is holed and taking on water, no one is going to buy a ticket for passage on this old ship. Not when there are glitzy new ships like 500px offering free passage. Granted 500px is a "no frills carrier". But let’s face it who is going to pay a single penny to get 4 comments on a image. If the forum is to survive it needs members and it needs them now, it needs to lure them back by offering a free membership for a period of time, and then if it becomes the palace that it once was you can re-introduce charging.
In the meantime asking for anything other than an optional donation will doom this ship to the ocean floor.
Bob
PS I bought a set of three dee glasses so that I could check out the 3D pics posted here. Unfortunately it was bit shaky as I am a spectacles man and have to squeeze them over my specs. So whilst i can see the effect a little bit it is not a good solution for me. I look forward to an app that allows me to look at them on my Mac screen
The "CLIQUES" killed it. We are not blessed with a lifetimes knowledege. Some wish to learn and the forum was a great inspiration and learning tool.
The one thing I find puzzling is this; after a quick look through some of the other forums on this site it would appear that UKNP consistently attracts the highest viewing figures . . . more so than the others. If viewing on here is so popular why wouldn't photographers want to post? Do they consider their work too good to post? do they consider their work inadequate to post? do they think the critique is too harsh? would they rather post somewhere that attracts comments from non-photographic viewers who are more easily impressed? I suspect there would be a sample of all these among the viewers.
The cost is one thing and I know from personal experience that this can be an issue but then that was partly addressed by the cheaper rate offered.
I really don't know the answers
Nick.
So come on you lookers and get involved
Bob
I only post on here intermittently, as you know. My reason is of course my job - while I try to fit as much photography in as possible, it isn't always easy.
I think from the comments above we are getting close to the problem. How can UKNP compete with sites like 500px?
I am tending to think that stipulating everyone must offer a full critique might be putting some people off commenting. Sometimes an image is just great, with nothing to be done to improve it, and I don't see any harm in saying so. This is still of value as it helps to boost peoples confidence. I have noticed that great shots get more comments than shots that need improvement. I always find this a bit disappointing, as I want to know what could done to improve it! There's a great article about how to give constructive critique around here somewhere. Maybe we need to ease up a bit, and just encourage people to post and comment, even if it is just 'nice shot' - gradually as people get to know each other better, they'll feel more confident in giving critique.
Didn't there used to be a 30 day free trial? Maybe they could do that again?
UKNP photo of the month competition?
Sorry for the long post, just my thoughts!
Got tomorrow off work - yay!
I'm a recent member just like Nick, but I've already seen this forum go through peaks and troughs. I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is, but I'm certain its in some way related to the cost of membership. These are not good times for anyone financially and luxuries such as forum fees can be the first thing to go when the purse strings tighten.
I've not been as active posting due to the weather being absolutely atrocious, or when the weather has been good, I've had work pressures. I have been making the most of it though, my trail camera has seen lots of use in the pursuit of suitable habitats, but my SLR has sadly been gathering dust.
I do like the idea of monthly contests or a "photo of the month". As a relative beginner I would welcome this sort of feature.
It would be an absolute shame if this site did sink. I for one have learned an incredible amount since I joined.
Just my 2p.
Thanks.
A double dose of humour would go a long way why not have a monthly project as suggested. One other crucial point is the high quality that prevails, this can hold people back not in my case. So why not a few cock ups or near misses they may well add a lighter touch.It also adds to the learning curve.
Nick.
Just what I meant fantastic I'm still chuckling and on my second pint. What a smashing cockup and not a bad image to boot.
There you go mods "Cock up of the month" we are only human after all.
If you look for example at the European forum at Naturescapes, you will see that traffic is much lower then on this forum. So surly something must be right?
And yes i don't think charging helps either. Although i think paying £12 isn't that much.
Most of the clique has left and maybe it is healthier for this forum. I have decided to renew my membership and will try (in between my hectic travel schedule) to participate. As soon as i notice that this forum is going the way it was, i will say goodbye!
Anyway, my 2 cents.
Good luck
Rene de Heer
Dear All,
Just to add my two penny worth to the forum discussion.
From my point of view I just do not think that the UKNP is worth paying for at any level! As has been mentioned there are number of sites out there that people can post images that cost absolutely nothing and a number of us are regularly posting on these sites including, but not limited to, 500px.
I can also confirm that 500px at least has offered far more exposure of our work to the wider community with a good number of individual photographers (former UKNP members) being recognised by the National Press and Media. The result is an actual income for the shots obtained without having to pay for a forum such as this. I can confirm that at least one of my friends, a former UKNP member, has recently obtained about £1.5k work of sales from a damselfly image across the globe.
In the few years that we were members of the forum we never experienced such interest in our craft and subsequent publications.
On another note, many photographers have found that regular customers of their work just simply follow their antics on sites such as Facebook and Twitter with the event of 'Fan Pages'. This, together with the expenses of their own websites means that there is little room for contributions to forums such as UKNP that offer nothing in return apart from a good community of fellow photographers. However, we can easily communicate on other sites that are FREE...!
I think many of us would happily contribute more often if the site was free. Certainly in my case, I am not prepared to pay, even the reduced rate, to simply post comments. I still enjoy viewing people's work and like to follow the various projects including John's pools and Robert's Otters etc.. In terms of inspirational photography etc, 500 px does offer some world class imagery that is not matched by any other site I have come across and I do find a lot of inspiration for my personal photography on that site. That said, it does not offer the personal contacts that I have made over the years of being on UKNP and for that I am very grateful. That said, if I want to pay to communicate I will simply pick up the phone, that or simply track them down on Facebook or by email etc..
I think that the regional NPN (UKNP) sites should be free to access and the international ones by subscritpion. I think the costs associated with this can be met through appropriate advertising etc.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts and if you are interested in what I've been up to then drop by and view some of my work at http://500px.com/BrettLewis
I do enjoy viewing your work and would happily comment and offer my own critiques but I'm not prepared to pay in order to do so. Put another way - the cost of the reduced UKNP forum is comparable to me replacing 4 new dormouse boxes each year as part of my ongoing studies. No brainer really..!
Best wishes to you all and keep taking great photos.
Brett
Nick.
Nick.
Nick is correct about camararderie though as I would happily pay my £12 for the banter available on this site
Bob
Nick.
I'm also on 500px. Its all bells and whistles, but useless for amateurs wanting to progress or wanting greater exposure of their work IMHO. Its been very difficult to get any views or comments on the site recently. When I first joined I had a fair amount of photos on the front pages, not any longer. The comments are nice but one liners typically. The dislike feature is nonsense and has apparently been abused. I only use it for showing my portfolio, but I'll be leaving once my website is finished.
NPN is leagues ahead as a learning resource.
Just my opinions of course.
Thanks.
Ener1
500px is more for showcasing really and certainly doesn't provide critique. Plus I suspect its rapid growth in recent months will inevitably lead to disatisfaction as it becomes harder and harder for images to get any attention.
I'll certainly be posting more images here once spring arrives.
Matt
IMO, these threads are counter-productive. It's like picking at a scab - the more you pick, the uglier it gets.
We apprciate your input and ideas on how to improve what we do. In the future, please send your suggestions/concerns directly to me or Nick. I'm closing this one down and will inform Nick to delete all others like this in the future.
Thanks for your help!