National Geographic Adventurer Mag, Image request.

EDITED by Rick D: Because the editor specifically asked that people be recommended to them rather than have their request and posted publicly, I've removed the editor's contact information and UPS/FedEx account information from the post below. If you think that you have the types of images that NG is looking for, contact James directly so that he can forward your information on to NG.
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Tuesday 25 April, 2006

National Geographic Adventure Magazine
104 W. 40th St., 18th Floor
New York, NY 10018
212-790-9041
kfox@ngs.org


Greetings!
National Geographic Adventure is working on its Next Weekends article for August. We are looking for the following images:

In VIRGINIA:
-rock climbing and mountain biking at the Wintergreen Ski Resort
-rock climbing with OWLS Rock Climbing

in GEORGIA
-car camping at one of the 35 primitive camp sites at Lake Conasauga Campground hiking and swimming holes in the Cohutta Wilderness.

in MINNESOTA
-hiking and mountain biking in the Itasca State Park, about 200 miles north of Minneapolis
-the Douglas Lodge
-hiking the North Country Trail

in ONTARIO
-chartered sailing on the Georgian Bay in Ontario is just as close as the good stuff found north on the Lower and Upper Peninsulas.
- “No More Hassles” out of Midland bound for the 30,000 Island section at the lower end of the bay, where you can snorkel through a variety of wrecks, and hike several provincial parks here


in MONTANA
-horsepacking to a basecamp in the Absaroka Mountain
-fishing and camping in the Absaroka Mountain

in COLORADO
-mountain biking, climbing, and hiking at the Bison Creek Adventure Lodge in the Tarryall Mountains southwest of Denver

in NEW MEXICO
-backpacking the White Mountains around 11,000+ feet, backpacking a portion of the Crest Trail.


in CALIFORNIA
-luxury tenting in El Capitan Canyon -- a resort of elegant cedar cabins, yurts, and splashy tent -- flings itself open to nature
-mountain biking and sea kayaking and surf lessons

in CALIFORNIA-OREGON
-rafting the Upper Klamath River through Hell’s Corner Gorge, where the river slices through the Cascade Range, Clave IV+ rapids

in WASHINGTON
-stay at the Three Fingers Lookout in Boulder River Wilderness
-the 6-mile hike in features a hairy final section across a glacier and up several ladders


As always we are looking for your most dyanamic and adventurous imagery. We appreciate all photographers paying attention to the EXACT locations we are looking for.


Please feel free to recommend people you know who may have pictures as well.

We are able to view digital or online submissions, but prefer original 35 mm slides and prints.

All CNP'ers,

I hate to sound like a commissioner and make blanket statements, but I don't think that this is the place to post image request lists from editors. These are the very busiest people on earth and request lists are intended for qualified professionals who have demonstrated consistently high image quality and good business practices.

Many of us get these requests from various publications after working very hard to gain the trust of an editor. Is posting a request to literally the world an act of trust?

I realize that we're all trying to help one another, but we're creating more competition for ourselves (outside of CNP) while risking these customer relationships.

I suggest that CNP take a stand against posting editor's request lists.

Dave Showalter

While discretion should be used in posting these, I think banning them from CNP would be silly. For the list I posted for Outside Magazine, the editor specifically requested that I forward the list to anyone who might have the images she was looking for. For James' post, it says "Please feel free to recommend people you know who may have pictures as well." While editors are very busy, when they're on deadline and looking for very specific images, they will generally be very grateful if a photographer can help them find such images. Since the images Outside Magazine was looking for were all of Colorado, CNP was the obvious place to post this. And if I did help her find any images she was looking for, this would only help me in the future if she did ever need images that I do have. For the majority of requests I get, I would never pass it on to 100 other photographers. But when it's a very specific request that I don't have and the editor specifically asks that I forward it on to others, why not give someone else the opportunity?

The posting guidelines for NPN, and hence CNP, are in place to establish reasonable boundaries for appropriate posting material. I'm not in Jim's head, but I suspect that given the general nature of the guidelines, he's expecting that discretion (on the part of the people posting, as well as the moderators) also plays a role in deciding what should and should not be posted.

Although there are likely compelling arguments to be made both for and against publishing these types of lists, I'm reluctant to start deciding what can and cannot be posted unless it violates the NPN posting guidelines or is othewise counterproductive to the group's efforts. (I should say that I'm speaking for myself only, and not my fellow moderator ). I think Grant summed it up well, at least from my perspective.

With regards to whether it's wise or in good taste to publish a list on a public forum when the editor requested that the photographer "feel free to recommend people you know who may have pictures as well" is a debatable matter. Feel free to debate it here.

However, it clearly is not appropriate to post phone numbers, shipping account numbers and/or related sensitive information. Aside from matters of discretion and business sense, I would not be surprised at all if there were legal considerations.

Here we go again.

Feel free to recommend people you know who may have pictures as well is different from posting the info on a public forum. Dave Showalter is absolutely right. This, and Grant's previous posting, is a serious breach of professionalism and trust.

If you want to post image requests, do it like Jesse has done it a few times. If someone is specifically looking for images that someone here at CNP might have, post the request with your own contact info, and then use your discretion in passing out the contact info. DO NOT under any circumstance post the contact name and info, FedEx account number, etc., of these photo editors who don't need phone calls from every anonymous lurker of this site.

Todd made my point better than I did - 103 people have viewed this post and 4 have responded. There are many looking outside of our small circle and it's up top us to handle editor requests professionally.

By handling these requests properly, we will build stronger relationships and opportunities for repeat sales.

Dave Showalter

I absolutely agree and I have no business interest in this or any of the other postings that have come through here. You may not be the only CNP'er who has received this request and you may be generating undue competition from the general public for another CNP'er.

I think the proper way of posting this type of request should be:

"I have a request from an editor for an image that I don't have.

They are looking for images from the Bison Creek Adventure Lodge in Tarryall, CO. as well as some other similarly specific locations in the Western US.

If you have something that fits this need, please contact me for the details on how to submit. My email is Blahblah at such and such dot org."

I suppose I should have provided more details in my response, which I wrote late at night. After receiving the e-mail form this Outside Photography editor and seeing his request for me to forward the info, I wrote back saying I could pass the e-mail on to a large number of other Colorado photographers via an online forum. He wrote back thanking me very much for any help I could provide. So, while I respect Todd, calling this a "serious breach of trust and professionalism" w/out knowing the details is way over the top and absurd. I don't know the details of how James got his request and whether it may have been a publicly available post or not. But, while I'm an unlikely person to defend James, my posting may have prompted his post and I believe that it was done with good intentions, even if it may not have been 100% appropriate.

I will delete my post and don't plan on forwarding along any more requests, as I don't need the headache and gain little benefit from it.

I don't sell photos, though at times I think ,"someday", so have some interest in these offerings.. I suppose there are some details of wording and information that could be fine tuned, but I would guess there are some budding photographers out there who would welcome this sort of information to keep them encouraged and help out with a few opportunities. It seems to me that Grant and James have been somewhat generous in taking time to post a few leads. I'd guess this sort of thing has received enough discouragement, though, that it won't happen too much more.

Grant, I got the same e-mail you did, and although I didn't actively ask him if I should post the request on an online forum, nothing in our traded e-mails suggested he'd want his public info on a public forum. Over the top and absurd? I certainly don't thiink so, since it is highly unusual for a photo editor from a major US magazine to want his info posted in such a manner. I might've been mistaken about your specifics, but given that this has happened in the past, and happened again after your post, I'd say it again in a heartbeat, just to dissuade anyone else from doing something similar.

OK, this is my last one.........for now. Todd has hit the nail on the head over and over.

Roger Rouch, every aspiring pro has been in your shoes and has had to figure out how to develop the working relationships to make their business successful. I'm not there yet, but the cool thing is that each of us gets to create our own path.

This issue is important to me for many reasons, and here's one: I tried to get on the request of a major National publication for several years. During that time period, I also sent them numerous queries and submissions. The process made me a better marketer and photographer. I know and respect how harried the photo editor job is. I am now on the request list, have a good relationship with both the photo ed. and her assistant and they told me they respected my perseverance. As a result, I recently had a full page published. While I'm happy with the photo credit, I am looking for a long and successful partnership; built from the ground up.

Will I breach the trust that I worked so hard to earn by posting the photo request list on an open internet forum? Not a chance in hell.

Roger, I would suggest Nature Photographer as a magazine that welcomes and publishes new photographers.

Dave Showalter

Just to weigh in with my two cents, I think I agree with Rick. Posting a request list, particularly having asked the editor specifically about the nature of where and all beforehand, should be fine. Having them contact the poster to get the editor information is reasonable, though I can also see a name and spam protected (garbled in some way) email address. Up to the editor I suppose. Were I ever to respond to a request like this, I'd probably contact the poster anyway as a go-between since, as others have pointed out, they obviously have a relationship there. Just seems the right thing to do to me.

I do agree that under no circumstances should any account information ever be posted. This isn't a private or secure forum, and there's no way to know who reads it.

As for violating the NPN guidelines or not, perhaps it doesn't. However, I think it's been shown enough in this forum alone that it's an item that should be addressed in the guidelines somewhere. Perhaps someone should raise the specific issue with... um, Jim I guess?

I hate to prolong the life of this thread any longer, but here's an important point. I happen to KNOW that editors/buyers have found my name and website through this forum. (CNP does well in the search engines.) They lurk! Maybe this has happened to you too. Or maybe someday it will. Don't undervalue the value of the exposure/networking that this place offers. Posts like these erode that value, regardless of intent. Whether you are hobbyist or pro, you all want to be taken seriously as a photographer. If this aspect of CNP is important to the masses, then I think their should be guidelines - as this is not the first time this has happened (and obviously people missed the last thread). It's truly embarrassing.

And to think, all of this for freakin' adventure images from the Bison Lodge!? Huh? Tarryalls, are those really mountains?

I agree with many points here. I like to share image requests when I simply don't have the photo, as it truly scores points with the editors ... and I really do like helping those who have given so much here at CNP. Maybe once in a blue moon, one of us will actually have an enlightening image of the Bison Lodge grand adventure. Most of the time, we're just perpetuating the CNP spirit with posts like these. If someone gets published as a result of a CNP post, then I think it represents what this forum is all about. Use common sense, and I know I'll keep posting image needs when appropriate.

Here's a good rule: Don't make boneheaded posts. Can that be included in the CNP rules too? It's obvious James was trying to be nice, and I'm sure he realizes now that this was a really, really boneheaded post. No, really. It was boneheaded. Let's all unite, sing a little song around the campfire, keep sharing image requests and continue making fun of Darren and his shorts.

Oh, by the way, click here for my fed ex number.

Ok, I get the point. Don't share, And if you do, don't do it here for goodness sake.

Go back and read Rick's edit at the very top of this thread, Art. It sums it up pretty nicely. It has nothing do to with sharing.