Lack of Activity

So is it just me or has anyone else noticed a general lack of activity or has everyone left the planet? I have noticed recently a strong drop off in activity here. What is up with that? Interested in your thoughts.

You probably mean long-timers, and you may be speaking of landscape, in both of which cases you don't mean me, but since you say general lack of activity and I have been a lot less active I'll go ahead and respond.

I don't want to be less active at all. I started struggling a few months ago with vision or lack thereof, capability or lack thereof, etc., etc., and am still struggling. I'm trying with all my might to get out of it, and I know it's super self-focused to think this way, which is really pretty immature on my part, especially when so many NPNers have been so supportive, but there you have it. I'm sure that even after I settled down from the first excitement I counted for at least, oh, six or eight posts a week during the best times, so even if mine aren't the ones you're looking for I did cause the screen to move, anyway. ;) But I'm trying. I really am.

Thanks Barbara. Landscape is very slow with few new posts and less comments. Not sure why but I have my theories. I have noticed you have not been around too with your insightful questions in the forums. Hope all goes well.

Eva, I noticed it too. I chalk it up to the late winter doldrums. I can't speak for others, but this is my least active time of year. I'm anxiously awaiting spring.

Not sure about other places, but here there is no snow, no leaves, no flowers. It's one of those between seasons times. I think it's a good time for migrating and nesting birds, and macro shooters can always find little things to shoot, but I bet many others are looking through old files. Good time of year to schedule meetings, clean the basement and get ready for Spring (I am respooling fishing reels). Today I shot shore ice melting around fallen leaves, but tomorrow, I'll look for skunk cabbage, hazelnut buds and maybe even wood frogs. While I am having fun, these are subjects that are not as easy to translate into images that excite NPN members to comment (at least for me, anyway)... OR maybe people just aren't commenting much these days! Hey, why didn't I think of that? (Circular reasoning always makes sense.)

Thanks Mark and Wayne. I just find it has been very quiet here. Usually images in Landscape pour off the page in a few days or even less. I agree there have been lulls due to the seasons but this seems to be a little bit more of a slow down then usual.

I just bought a "new" lens over the weekend, and will pick it up from the post office tomorrow. I could talk about that when I get it. Otherwise, this has been a horrible winter for me. Very little snow, way too warm, and the ice on the lakes wasn't thick enough to drive out on. So, I didn't take a lot of shots the past couple of months. Usually I take more photos in Dec/Jan/Feb than the rest of the year combined.


Kent in SD

It has been a non-winter here too Kent especially after last year's un-relentless snow for us in the Northeast (not much this year).

Maybe it is just me.

Well, I sure can't speak for anyone other than myself Eva, but every now and then I just get in a rut (usually caused by life getting in the way of creativity). I even got invited to show in an art gallery and sold on my first day up, but I doubted abilities. I have focused on floral, but my first sell was a goat (it's in my web-site). Then I doubted my vision. I had to force myself out the other night to jump start myself. I just received notice that I have sold almost $1000 this week, which has been a great boost. It might be all the negative news out there that has everyone sitting and waiting, but I hope to have new life in these old bones. This is just me talking, but I urge all to express them selves, and see the beauty out there.
Bob

It's not you Eva, I think we all see it. I remember when I was still watching NPN from the sidelines and not yet a member. I would anxiously await what new photos would be posted. Now, it seems hardly any photos are getting posted, sometimes only a handful on a slow day. I hope that it is just lack of creativity thing, for most people. I learn a lot from NPN, and not from just the comments on the photos that I post but also from seeing what other photographers are doing. Not so much copying, but being inspired by. When no one posts, I find myself looking else where for creative inspiration. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just there is not a lot of focus on nature photography, when you encompass the whole world of photography. I still think there is a ton of opportunity for nature photographers to be creative and artistic, we just have to be willing to go our own way to pursue our vision and purpose and be willing to take the good with the bad.

I haven't pointed my camera at something growing out of the earth in a few weeks, definitely in a batting slump too. That should change Friday, doing a meetup with Bill Bean over at the McDowell Mountains in NE Scottsdale at 6:30am for a little sunrise fun. Anybody in or around Phoenix Friday? Shoot me a note, I'll send you the location! You'll need to do serious exposure bracketing or have a 4 or 5-stop ND Grad, because that sun is like a nuclear fireball when it pops up, wayyyy brighter than what I used to see living in Oregon.

Also, the new iPad gets delivered Friday, and with that 2048x1536 resolution this could become one amazing photo portfolio device. Will do full report/review in this forum for those interested.

yep, it's slow! BUT ... just given you something to look at (landscape!).

And "... but I have my theories... " but you don't elaborate - your thoughts, eva?

To elaborate, I don't notice the same lack of activity on 500px mainly, or Whytake.

I think that's exactly what's causing the slowdown, Eva. Sites like 500px, Pinterest, Google+, and so on. In the past year, several very high profile sites went live... and they are incredibly popular. They have flashy interfaces. They are easy to navigate, and it's easy to get started, easy to upload an image, easy to get hooked. Participation is huge - and people are getting lots of attention for their photographs. Not serious critiques... but lots and lots of positive attention. It's possible that these sites will fade as time goes on - but I find that unlikely. I think slowdown is inevitable here at NPN as other sites get flashier and bigger and faster. NPN still has a great community - and people get really solid critiques here. I hope people continue to value that.

Eva, it seems that more comments are made by people when they post an image. With winter snow lacking, and being between fall colors and summer flowers, trips may be fewer and are fewer new images to showcase.
Varina, I agree that NPN is of great value because of the meatier critiques, information and community. That is what drew me to join NPN a couple of years ago.

This is the second time in the last nine or ten weeks that this subject has been raised on this forum. To whit:

http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=68272&CGISESSID=3596823d6baa8f54560bfa86d38682e7&u=23135

I've been a registered user/member of this site for 10 years, and while I virtually stopped posting images on NPN myself several years ago for reasons superfluous to this thread, I've noticed that the substantial drop off in activity here over the past year or so extends far beyond the IC galleries. The overall level of discussion--sheer quantity--has plummeted dramatically compared to three-five-seven (etc.) years ago. I doubt it's half of what it was, say, five years ago.

The activity in many of the regional forums has all but dried up and withered away. The MWNP forum, which was an incredibly active place 8-10 years ago is a ghost town now. Even in ostensibly active forums, utility seems to have declined. I posted a note in the RMNP forum a couple of weeks ago asking for some advice about a planned trip to Utah (Zion, Bryce, etc.) later this spring and I received four largely vague and mostly unhelpful replies (not knocking the folks that did reply; I do appreciate their time). On the few occasions in years past when I asked about far more arcane places in much less clearly active forums I always received some valuable, actionable insight. I view this as just a sign of the times here; there simply aren't anywhere near as many people who are posting compared to the past, therefore the likelihood of tying in with someone who is both willing and able to help is greatly lessened.

I do think that this is a function of time spent elsewhere--social networking/photo sites--as has been mentioned earlier in this thread and the one I linked above--and I see nothing to suggest that this trend will do anything but increase and I'm not sure that there's much of anything that the powers that be here can do to reverse or halt it, as unfortunate as that is.

NPN was a tremendous resource and played a very large roll in helping me with my photography once upon a time, and even though I've been relatively inactive here for a number of years, I've retained my paid membership annually in acknowledgment of that debt. But I don't think the site really benefits from people like myself and, in any case, I don't think it can afford to count on a lot of people retaining membership out of a feeling of indebtedness. Once most people realize that they're no longer utilizing something that they're paying for, they move on.

Here in the Hudson Valley we've been looking at brown for the last four months or so. No snow, not even the usual wonderful shots of the frozen Hudson River. Hopefully things will improve before the humidity and mosquito seasons kick in.

"I posted a note in the RMNP forum a couple of weeks ago asking for some advice about a planned trip to Utah (Zion, Bryce, etc.) later this spring and I received four largely vague and mostly unhelpful replies."

The gist of that post was the question of whether late April/early May was a good time to visit S. Utah with a vague notion of actual time to be spent there. I'll leave it up to the reader to determine whether the replies were 'vague and unhelpful'.

'Southern Utah in late April/early May'

Hi Eva,

Yeah, a topic that has been raised before and from my observation one that has been brewing for more than a year actually, probably 2 or 3.

For the most part, I think Varina has nailed it. The introduction and subsequent popularity of many other sites and venue is simply diluting the pool of time and availability for the thousands upon thousands of photographers wanting to show their wares.

I too have my personal situation, reasons and motivations to explain my individual participation, which clearly has decreased, but I'm certainly not going to suggest that any one individual, me or anyone else, has anything to do with the slow down. Collectively, sure, but not individuals. It seems that many so far are confirming why it has been slow for them, and so add it all up and that contributes too.

Another factor is that many of the long time, established members (pro or not) are also not contributing as in the past. Along the lines of Varina's comments, many folks are expanding to other venues in an effort to continue adding potential clients for their products and expanding their exposure. Perfectly normal behavior, IMHO - it's just at the point where folks are spread around at so many different sites that NPN is seeing the effects.

I'd have to agree with other comments though that I think NPN continues to be and provide the best site for critiques, learning and expanding your abilities and capabilities as an artist and photographer. None of the aforementioned new sites offer any substantial critiques. It's most atta-boys and fluffy, "oooooh, great shot!" with little substance. Also consider the audiences are much, much broader and this is expected really. Great for exposure and gaining share, but again, lacks in real critique.

After all that, is there a solution? probably not. I don't plan on going anywhere and when I'm able to get back out and motivated to capture some more images I'll be right back posting them.

Lon

The gist of that post was the question of whether late April/early May was a good time to visit S. Utah with a vague notion of actual time to be spent there. I'll leave it up to the reader to determine whether the replies were 'vague and unhelpful'.

Forgive me; I should have chosen my words to better reflect the point I was trying--apparently unsuccessfully--to make here. (I will reiterate, however, what I said in my earlier note in this thread: I was not being critical of the people who did reply to the thread.) I would point out that I explicitly did more than ask whether this particular time frame was a good time to visit Utah; I very specifically asked whether the bus system in place at Zion makes it difficult to the point of impossible to shoot effectively at that time of the year and that question went unanswered. And it's no one's fault that it went unanswered; I'm not saying to myself "what a bunch of selfish so-and sos; they didn't answer my question." No; I took it to mean that no one who read the thread felt well-informed enough to offer an authoritative answer. In other words, I saw this as (further) evidence of the reduced--in terms of quantity, not quality--level of participation on NPN--once upon a time, I'm quite sure, I would have been inundated with replies citing experience (I base that on my experience asking about far more arcane places than Zion National Park on far less busy NPN regional forums than the RMNP has historically been). And since that's the subject of this thread, I brought it up here solely to cite a specific instance--the only recent example of any actual participation that I've had on NPN--that was in line with the theme of the thread.

What I decidedly was not trying to do was suggest that I had been treated badly or that people on RMNP were acting selfishly. I apologize for the misunderstanding; I should have expressed myself more clearly.

This is an interesting and relevant series of posts. For me the drop in posts seems most obvious since the first of the year. I try to look at all images, not just certain galleries. I learn from them all. I start each session by clicking on all images and then statting with the last one I viewed and working up to the most recent. As recently as a few months ago (late fall), if I missed a day, it was quite a challenge to get back to being current. Right now, I can check the galleries a couple of times a day and spend 10 to 15 minutes and I'm good. The only way I can affect this trend personally is to post more and comment more. Which I will try to do. But I'm not as experienced as some of the folks who used to post and critique regularly. I do miss them. I hope some of them will wander back in. My 37 1/2 cents worth.

I know it should not really matter. But I think having images to share is a big part of being motivated to participate. I think for me anyway. I try to check in every day, and I usually am logged on most days. But a lack of activity and shortage of images to share is impacting my enthusiasm. Sorry about that! I agree about the other Social networks and photography forums having an impact as well. But, I still think this is the best photography forum going. For me it has also been my social network. I don't tweet, blog, or facebook. Honestly, I just don't have time to keep up with all of that. And honestly, I don't really care where all the people I ever met in my life are eating dinner, or what movie they just went to see! I mean really, do that many people really need to know all that crap about each other? So for me, those other sites are not dividing my attention. I have joined one other photography sharing community. The first and only other one since joining NPN 4 years ago. Or has it been 5? I think it's fun to look at the other imagery out there, and some of it is very good. But the sites overall do not compare to what you get here as a whole. I hope people come to this realization, and the flow of images picks up here again. But we need the seasons to be distinctive too, man!

Chris

a personal anecdote may be illustrative. a handful of years ago, when my photography took what some might describe a more "serious" turn coupled with improved internet access in Mozambique (with connection speeds greater than 10kb per sec - which is what they had been, previously, in Ethiopia), I began the process of learning from observing - and posting - images on the web. this led me through a couple of early forms of social networking sites and, eventually (through other people), I found myself on NPN while tiring of the fluff of other sites ("ooos", "aaas" and "i'll scratch your back if you scratch mine"). Clearly NPN was a place in which I could learn and, hopefully, contribute to other people's learning processes by taking the time to observe their work and comment in a way that might help them grow as well. One caveat to the universality of my experience is that I confess that I am not really interested in sales - or rather more accurately - I am not motivated by sales (heck, if somebody wishes to purchase a print, I will gladly make one for them and sell it approximately at cost). While I may not post hundreds of images here, I have kept a slow trickle over the years (although I also confess that the process by which those images are selected is whimsical). But the key here is that I quite quickly tired of the social networking - and simply didn't have the time for it - and I believe that other people, more 'serious' than I, will tire too of enthralling crowds, of being entertainers - for free - when they wish to make a livelihood from their work. In short, I believe that other sites will be short-lived. NPN has a niche with people who will take time to write their thoughts. Activity may come and go but as long as there is some critical mass, it will survive. It may have to increase its visual sexiness (maybe bigger thumbnails, maybe option for bigger images, maybe become more graphically appealing overall, etc) but as long as people are willing to learn - and contribute to other people's learning, it will survive.

Finally, I am of the mind that as long as there is light out there - and looking out of the window as I write this, there appears to be! - then there is something to photograph. Perhaps those scenes do not conform to particular images that we have in our mind or preconceived ideas of what images should look like, but I'm willing to gamble that if one gets out and open one's eyes, one is rewarded. The light dances on nature - in whatever state nature is.

They say a "dog year" is equal to seven human years. I'm not sure what the translation is for "Internet years" but NPN has now been online for over 12 years.

The Internet has exploded with growth and sites like 500px are getting mega-buck VCs to fund their sites. As a "mom & pop" site with no advertising or venture capitalists to invest hundreds of thousands, we're at a big disadvantage.

Look at all of the changes in the last 12 years - iPhones, iPads, Facebook, etc. In many ways, the NPN website is a relic of days long gone where someone could come up with an idea for a website, build it in their spare time on their home PC and grow it into something useful. Today, the builders of websites are corporate entities employing technical people with communications and programming backgrounds, with plenty of money to invest.

As a product manager and looking at the NPN website as a product, it is most certainly a very mature product that has already passed the end of its life cycle. The design and technology behind it are all outdated and it would take a HUGE infusion of cash to bring it up to date. In that process, if it were to happen, one thing is 100% certain - NPN would no longer be what it is now.

Last year I was contacted by "investment people" who were interested in purchasing NPN to do just that with it (NPN's brand name and search engine rankings have huge value), but I declined the offer. However, that is what it will take to bring NPN into the same league as a site like 500px.

For now, I think Stuart's comments above are on the money - there will always be a core group of people who are interested in what NPN has to offer in its current form. When it reaches a point where there is not, then NPN will need to be handed off to the money people or just slowly come to a stop as the Internet grows even larger, more technologically sophisticated and further populated by corporate/big-money interests.

We, collectively, are NPN. We are what we make of it.

"If we look there, is always something to photograph" I agree completely! But I don't want to photograph just something. I used to take a lot of day trips. Most of them yielded nothing but spent hours behind the wheel. I don't necessarily think that is a waste of time, but..... I go out less often now, for longer periods of time. I try and watch the weather patterns and take advantage of an opportunity when I can. I'm just saying this winter season has not provided much in the way of opportunity, for me at least. I work construction and can't really dash off at a moments notice, so I have to plan and anticipate as much as I can. The lean working winters and springs of 2008-2010 while scary at times, were a blessing. I would not have had the opportunities I did without it. Now that things are coming back, I find myself falling into the same situation as before, unable to get away!

I never understood why serious photographers would be seduced by any of the social networking sites. I understand about the marketing aspect of it, but... I'm not attracted to the idea of a bunch of non photographers telling me how great my imges are. I'll take it, don't get me wrong. But I just don't take the feedback as seriously as what I recieve here for the most part. So even if I did decide to join Facebook, it would be for different goals than I look for here.

Chris

So far we've had 25 replies to this "inactivity" thread.


Kent in SD

^^^LOL @ Kent!^^^

OK # 27 I guess....

I see a lot of excellent comments and input here on this subject that has come up in the past several times. As in the past I think there never was or will there ever be an exact answer. However, as pointed out probably more as a collection of answers on the subject of slowing activity in general. During my Drag Racing years we used the theme known as the "Disneyland Syndrome". At races where the stands were not filled to capacity we figured they had to have all gone to Disneyland that night instead. Obviously not the case, but it gave a broad stroke reasoning to the real decline in general, that being people move around on their interests as well as their likes & dislikes.

I guess with that said I would keep the focus on a few things overall about the NPN site. The main point here is the original theme of the site being “Nature Photography". Not to say other sites out there are not slightly doing similar versions on the theme, but overall this site has remained dedicated to that as the primary theme or agenda. Even some of the galleries here that are not exactly all out RAW nature do still have an outdoor flavor to them IMO. Many of the photos seen in those galleries are still taken while out hiking or at least just taking in the outside world. Keeping in mind those galleries would not include images of children crawling around on the living room floor, or a dog fetching a ball. I do like children and dogs, however, that’s not the reason why I like to visit NPN.

I used to post quite a bit more than I do now but lately not so much. I do look at the pictures sometimes but truthfully I don't post that often anymore because I am very frustrated at the lack of comments that I get. I know everyone can't comment on every picture but I think things could be much better than they are if everyone made a little more of an effort. IMO there are too many people on NPN who love to post their pictures and get comments but they don't want to return the favor for others. Personally I would rather get a critical comment than be completely ignored. I am not perfect but if someone comments on my post I usually try to return the comment on their post. I feel particularly frustrated because my post to comment ratio is 19+ comments to every one post. When I get few comments It takes some of the enjoyment out of things for me and I am now starting to check out the posting photographers comment to post ratio before I decide to make a comment on their photo.

I don't know for sure but I imagine that other folks feel the same way and it could be one reason for at least part of the slowdown in NPN activity. I've been pretty inactive lately because if there's no payoff , in the form of comments on NPN, then it's not my inclination to comment on other folks pictures and eventually you just stop participating and then your gone for good.

I also don't agree that NPN is a major serious critique sight. I'm not saying there are not good critiques, IMO there definitely are, but I think that if you checked back on all the NPN posts you would find plenty of "attaboys" and "fluff" though they probably are not as prevalent here as they are on the other photo sites. I just checked seven posts at the top of the page in the Avian gallery and out of 36 comments 31 were totally "attaboys" and of the five comments that were critical three were extremely mild like "I'd crop a bit more from the bottom" or something like that. I am willing to bet if you go back and check comments as for back as you want you will see plenty of "attaboy" comments here on NPN. My SWAG (strategic wild ass guess) is that if you check the archives of NPN there are two 'attaboys" to every one serious critique.

In the interest of full disclosure I post almost exclusively in Avian and occasionally in wildlife so these comments apply mainly to the Avian gallery. I'm sure not against "attaboys" and I've posted my share. I just wish I could get a few more "attaboys" and critiques myself. I also know there are people that probably get as few or fewer comments as I do so maybe I am whining too much but I at least think it's a valid whine.

Having said all of that I know there is not much to be done about the lack of comments outside of NPN members policing themselves and making sure they make adequate commentary. Five to one is the reccomended ratio so if you're lower than that you aren't contributing your fair share IMHO.

I run hot and cold on NPN, and it has nothing to do with the amount of photography I do. In the winter, a lot of my photography is done around skiing in the Sierra, but I've only made two trips this season (although I'm heading up today, as a big storm is coming in). However, I have well over 50 images that I've downsized with the intention of posting, but I just haven't been in the posting mood lately. More importantly, I haven't been in the commenting mood, and I don't want to post and not comment. Hopefully this will change soon, as I have a lot of new work I’d like to share and get some feedback on. NPN is (was) the only social network site I'm involved with, no Facebook or any other photo sites (although I did just sign up on LinkedIn, but for business reasons). I also wonder if NPN has become a little diluted with all the new forums and galleries, some of which only get one or two posts a month. Are forums like Hot Topics, Landscape Photography, etc., really necessary, or can these topics fall into the general discussion forum? Would condensing some of these less active forums at least give the impression of greater involvement? Just a thought.

Hey There , I stayed out of this one the last time and I probably should this time as well !
I am still fairly new to the site , just over a year and what I have been seeing is (through the eyes of a still fairly new photographer) is a lack of room for fresh new ideas , bold images , thinking outside the box as it were. Now I am not wanting to step on any toes here , but even the critiques can be a little old school.
The other photo sites while not all flooded with fantastic images there is a lot of fresh new work out there , out of the box thinking as it were. Such as Art Wolfe's new work ( I mean using a wide angle on the back side of a horse , centering images and horizons). I am not knocking NPN it has more than it's share of amazing images . The thing is you have to constantly be looking at where the trends are in photography and what people are buying and keeping on open mind and learning from these images . Your work has to keep evolving and the fresh edger images that break all the rules are the ones selling right now.
Now don't go off on me , yes there is still a wide market for what I daringly say old school or traditional photography there always will be.
It's just that the younger photographers who want to expand there knowledge and gain from the skill set of many on this site may not feel there is room for their work.
I for one sell far more Lensbaby images in a year than I do my so called technically accurate work. I know many are not Baby loves and that is totally cool. But I make enough money from my work each year to keep me in new gear and photography trips as well as padding the family account.The interest in my work has peeked enough that I now offer lessons and have been swamped with clients looking to do individual lessons ,so I am not just a hack here who does not know where I am coming from on this.

I am also not saying to only create images to fit the market. I am just saying those newer photographers who come to the site and read the comments and see the type or work offered here may not feel they will fit in. But this still applies to nature photography as well , a fresh new take on a image that looks just like a hundred others. There has to be room for the photographers who crop wing tips or just present claws, who center horizons or angle them , flowers out of focus or right weight balanced (as long as these are done with intention and skill)and then add scanners , x rays ,I think you get the idea and there are people here who create such work and good on them I would love to see more.

Now the pop gallery is just a fabulous idea with that exact intention, it is a place for some of these coming to the site to find a place.

I have seen some what I would call fresh work here , out of the box thinkers as it were with some new perspective ,but I read the comments or in some cases the lack of comments and they sometimes fail to see the emotion the image carries and only comment on a lack of technique. But what is a technically perfect image if it lacks a soul. Some of the most nontechnical images convey amazing emotion.

There is a new trend in critique out there for judging an image for what it conveys as taken , not how if you could go back in time and retake it as it were. Yes there is still the technique used or in some cases be improved but looking at the image as is only.

You are fully with in your rights to not like an image for sure. It's not a one fits all deal, but neither is anyone photography site and we can only change and evolve to make room for new photographers with newer ideas but it won't guarantee they will come but at least when they peek their heads in they may find themselves welcome. And I will keep trying to convert every photographer on the 12 sites I am on to come take a peek at least. I keep my toes in all these sites so I can see what new creative energy is out there, to feed off the fresh ideas. It's what helps keep me jazzed about photography. I come here to hone my craft and inject a few waves as well sometimes !

Anyway I shut up now I have said more than enough I am sure !

Lorna, great post! You are either on the leading edge of the wave or get swallowed by it.

This is a very interesting subject. When I see that I'm not getting many comments regarding
an image that I've posted, I take a closer look at my posting. Usually I conclude that it simply
isn't a very good image with any "WOW' about it. The image may have been captured in
good light, and it may be absent any technical errors. However, it's very difficult for a critiquer
to find a tactful and discreet way to say, "This is OK but it simply doesn't do anything for me."
Such an individual obviously would be too polite and professional to say, "Why did you care to
photograph this image?" Such a person simply refrains from commenting.

NPN members reading this now might say, "If you realized that it wasn't worthy of photogaphing in the first place why did
you not only refrain from doing so but go beyond that by posting it? I don't have a good answer. Perhaps
I'm hoping that I'm suffering from low self esteem and that many critics will be very positive about the
posting giving me an uplifting experience and helping me to believe in myself. Nevertheless, good
critics aren't fooled, and that's simply not going to happen for an image lacking the "WOW" factor.

After all, Ansel Adams did say something about only coming up with about 3 or 4 outstanding images
per year. With that in mind perhaps that's the maximum that I should post.

Thank you for your time.

A quick thought: Keeping critiques humming along... in add'n to the WP and GOTM which honors fine photography...perhaps initiate CW...Critique of the Week. Highlight the most balanced, insightful and constructive critique as determined by the moderators. Moderators submit one each...Jim, you select the winner ....Winners get an all-expense paid vacation photo-tour to Iceland, Norway, or Africa! ....or...Door Number 3.

Just visited 500px and Whytake. They get a lot of looker-lookies visits for photos that appear in those two sites ...vs... NPN. For marketing...that is important. Esthetically, I really do like the larger thumbnails...and the spaciousness with a bit more 'elegant' layout. Keep banners and menus to a minimum...crisp and clear. ...and refreshing to see top 'inspiring' photos upon opening the site. Their emphasis right upon entry is to show large attractive thumbnails.

Next, the search engines for those who want to follow the crowds to find 'popular', 'impact', etc...are there for those looking for inspiration.

I think there is something to be said for a front page that has larger thumbnails of the most attractive photos...filtered by what or whom is subject to debate. Daily refreshing of these is needed...

Bottom line, in my opinion ... Purpose: that is the question. What need are you meeting in your viewership?

I think of one word that answers the question for me ...one word only

INSPIRATION

I want to see the best, creative, and jaw-dropping photos that will inspire me do more.

OK two words....FEEDBACK

I want to give feedback and get feedback...and not be a total slob who is only trying to improve myself...because I know I should try to help others with good feedback.

Pinterest...I joined and have nothing to do with it....sorta not my thang.

There are lots of new forums and I think they are pulling folks away. I am amazed how slow it is right now.

I'm guilty of non-participation, but only because of personal issues have taken up all of my time over the past few months. I'm looking forward to getting back into the swing once my life returns to some sense of normalcy. However, I too have noticed a lessening of participation at NPN in general for the past 6 months or so. I guess it's just part of the social media boom that's sweeping the planet and absorbing a lot of people's time. So many ways to share images and interact with others now, but it's great that NPN is a purely nature-based site that sets it apart from others. Perhaps NPN should start to integrate with Twitter and Facebook

We have a FB page - see link in the upper right corner of every page!

Thanks Jim. Yeah, I know there is a fb page, I'm just slow to catch on to the fb revolution and find it surprising that even my hairdressers dog has a fb page! Please excuse my dry humorless humor.

It seems to me from several of the posts (as it has seemed to me before) that there is a real difference in what members think NPN is supposed to be and what types of images should be posted here. Does anybody think that's a problem, or do people think it doesn't matter or it's good that different members think NPN is supposed to be different things?

As a product manager and looking at the NPN website as a product, it is most certainly a very mature product that has already passed the end of its life cycle. The design and technology behind it are all outdated and it would take a HUGE infusion of cash to bring it up to date. In that process, if it were to happen, one thing is 100% certain - NPN would no longer be what it is now.

Last year I was contacted by "investment people" who were interested in purchasing NPN to do just that with it (NPN's brand name and search engine rankings have huge value), but I declined the offer. However, that is what it will take to bring NPN into the same league as a site like 500px.

I think it will take more than a site interface upgrade...and longer you wait the better change other sites has to establish themselves. I dont know the reason for your declining the offer, but the comments on NPN as a product manager are well put.

While I may be an exception here on NPN there are plenty of people like me who are NOT on NPN and have massive presence on social networks. I have to admit that the comment on NPN do help my photography, but marketing on social network beats NPN hands down...mostly because of its shear size.

For example: my most popular photograph on NPN is viewed about 1700 times while on social network the numbers read >300,000 times. Same goes for the discussions that I start on social networks. Simple statistic: Google+, Facebook drive over >50% of traffic to (one) our websites while NPN drives <2%....and along with increased traffic comes increased sales.

So, my question is this...should I continue to use NPN? At this point in my career I rely less on critique from others to improve my photography...but I am more driven by personal vison and passion.

So, my question is this...should I continue to use NPN? At this point in my career I rely less on critique from others to improve my photography...but I am more driven by personal vison and passion.

Jay, only you can answer that.

If we were to assume that everyone on earth had become interested in nature photography at the same time, and they have all advanced to where you are now, then NPN may have little left to offer. However, I think the chances of that being even remotely true are zero to none.

NPN will always serve a purpose, though its role in the world of multi-million dollar Internet enterprises will obviously be smaller. FWIW, I'd rather have a small number of dedicated members committed to sharing their passion for nature photography with fellow members vs. hordes of viewers who ulitmately offer nothing other than impressive view numbers on photos.

BTW, using Alexa as the measuring stick, NPN has not lost any ground at all in ranking. If you take a look at the links below, you will undoubtedly find some useful info (be sure to look at the ranking numbers - the lower the better - and check out the Audience Snapshots );

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/jaypatelphotography.com#

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/naturephotographers.net#

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/500px.com#

The above links tell a story, one that I'm not at all uncomfortable with.

PS - I turned 58 yesterday!

I am still learning, and there is nowhere better on the 'net to read better critiques (not just of my photos - of everyone's) than NPN. Everywhere else is too much praise, and not enough real feedback or insight.

Yes, NPN is a bit traditional, but there is something to be said for traditional photography which will stand the test of time. In 5 years, I dare say that photos where the horizon is "off," for example, will look dated.

I hope NPN activity picks up. But even with a level of reduced activity, it's still a hugely valuable resource.

"FWIW, I'd rather have a small number of dedicated members committed to sharing their passion for nature photography with fellow members vs. hordes of viewers who ulitmately offer nothing other than impressive view numbers on photos. "

I heartily agree with this, Jim, but what Jay is getting at is NPN not being a marketing vehicle. In my opinion, NPN should not be a vehicle purely for marketing although there are some avenues for this here; "Buy Print" the "Workshops and Exhibitions Forum" and Photo Portfolios.net, to site a few examples. I think the balance between the markeing aspects of NPN and it's image critique and discussion segment is about right.

At this juncture, since many members here do attempt to sell their work, I wonder if some resources could be utilized to update and advertise PhotoPortfolios.net. The basics are there, and there is already a huge number of images from an extensive list of members, so it seems a good bet, at least to me.

I've been around this campfire for nearly ten years and have seen it go through some tough times and seen also activity wax and wane. For me, at least, NPN has been a major player in my photography endeavors and I have met folks here whom I now count among my closest friends: It's the community that matters most to me. Let's all work to keep it strong!

--P

Preston said;

I heartily agree with this, Jim, but what Jay is getting at is NPN not being a marketing vehicle.

Agreed, though I'm not sure NPN can compete with the mega-sites in that regard.

I like the phrase "campfire" that you used, Preston - to me, that is what NPN is about. We can't compete on a purely traffic/views basis, which is where one's marketing efforts will get the most results. On the other hand, I believe the vast majority of people come to NPN for the "campfire experience," which you positively can NOT get on the likes of 500px.com.

In that regard I concur with Jay's statment - if you have progressed to the point of nature photography excellence where NPN critiques can't help you and you're only interested in marketing your own work, then there are better places than NPN to hang your hat.

Personally, I prefer the campfire setting.

BTW, I do believe there is a developing generational factor emerging in this.

As I stated above, when NPN went online in April of 2000, www.photo.net was the biggest photography site on the Internet. Many larger/more sophisiticated sites have now eclipsed them.

The number of people surfing the Internet has exploded globally, a huge majority of them of younger generations. Social media and sites like 500px are a huge draw to this new audience.

In the mean time, NPN has remained a more "traditonal" resource that those who were active on the Internet in 2000 continue to value and enjoy.

In my post above, I provided links to Alexa and suggested that we look at the Audience Snapshots - they tell the story. For Jay's site, the snapshot is as follows;

"Based on internet averages, jaypatelphotography.com is visited more frequently by females who are in the age range 18-24, received some college education and browse this site from home."

So while it may be logical to interpret the larger number of referrals from the social media/mega-sites as better for business, is the audience demographics descibed above one that is looking to purchase photography products/services, or do they visit for purely "social" reasons?

NPN's snapshot;

"Based on internet averages, naturephotographers.net is visited more frequently by users who are over 65 years old, have no children and are graduate school educated."

OK, all jokes aside about renaming NPN to ONPN (old nature photographers network), which audience would you rather market your work in front of?

Finally, 500px;

"Based on internet averages, 500px.com is visited more frequently by users who are in the age range 18-24 and have no children."
In regards to disposable income by age;

Household income in the United States varies substantially with the age of the person who heads the household. Overall, the median household income increased with the age of householder until retirement age when household income started to decline. The highest median household income was found among households headed by working baby-boomers (US Census Bureau median household income by age of householder") .

So when it comes to selling your products/services, unless you understand your audience demographics it may not matter how large it is. While getting your work in front of as large of an audience as possible is a good strategy, always bear in mind that all audiences are not created equal when it comes to business marketing decisions.

Jim, that was quite informative , I looked at our audience demographic as well and it was very interesting, it does seems like the site generates 45 to 60 the bulk of the site are 64+, male and no kids. Darn stats. I don't even register as noticeable on the charts , I'm here, I am a girl , under 45 and two young kids and post secondary schooling. so take that stats.


But seriously it was a very informative read.

Lorna, the stats don't do you justice!

With the explosion of Internet activity in the last decade, I think it's easy to get lost in the numbers. Like any other competitive landscape, understanding your product, your competitors and your customers has now become far more important to the decision-making process.

Bruised ego healed , Jim !

Happy Birthday Jim!!!

Why would you not want to retire travel the world and go shooting instead of working overtime for NPN? You can take me with you and will hang out in Alaska for couple of weeks. :-)))

As I stated above, when NPN went online in April of 2000, www.photo.net was the biggest photography site on the Internet. Many larger/more sophisiticated sites have now eclipsed them.

The number of people surfing the Internet has exploded globally, a huge majority of them of younger generations. Social media and sites like 500px are a huge draw to this new audience.

Good observation..I started around the same time and no one was bigger than photo.net. Photo.net business model was very strict and photo.net gave NO attention to your growth as a photographer...just their growth as a site. I remember posting some technique on photo.net and if anyone was interested to contact me. Next thing I know I got yelled at by the admin about promoting my work.

I know about Alexa ranking for NPN.....I looked it up before I posted on this forum.
Without posting any numbers, I will say that social media has been very very good for business. :-))) And yes the it is tough to compete against big sites with deep VC pockets.

While I continue to visit the NPN site daily, it has been a lifeline in my remote location, what I require is not completely served by NPN. Nor should it be, to attempt to be all things to all people would, IMO, weaken rather than strengthen it. With the advancement of digital photography there are a number of sites I visit for specific, usually technical, information.

A stock agency that I am with specifically states no more landscapes and while appreciating there is a limited market for stunted black spruce, the travel expenses here don't support microstock prices. To that end my direction in photography has changed. Without reopening the issue, my nudes in landscape series was deemed unacceptable on NPN. Currently it is my best selling work. A longer term project, rurban abstracts (rural + urban) may not fit here either.

While some have mentioned being in a slump, I prefer to think of it as a period of transition. While not knowing where it is leading, NPN will still be a cherished resource. It has been my experience that no question has gone unanswered either by the experience of those that respond or reference to another individual or site. Jim has worked at maintaining a level of comfort and civility for all participants which is often not to be found on other forums. Something branding doesn't reflect.

Dave, we believe the POP Gallery - while still G Rated - will provide a venue for members' non-nature work. There is some great stuff posted there!

Jay, good to hear you're getting some traction with the audience. At the end of the day, that is all that matters in building/maintaining a business.

It's a funny cycle - what was once new becomes old, then teeters on obsolescence. Then, in some cases, becomes in vogue again. IMHO, there will always be a market for what NPN offers.

For me I haven't been posting many images lately due to the fact that there hasn't been much to photograph thanks to the ridiculously warm winter we had here in New York. I expect to begin posting again with spring time here... but if I post images and only get 1 or 2 comments... it may no longer be worth my time which I think is the beginning of a vicious cycle.

I'm rather "guilty" of not posting, or commenting, so much lately, though I do visit NPN daily.

I can't say what other folks' lack of activity, but the reason for my personal lack of participation is a simple combination of a busier life, and the dwindling value of critique for my personal growth. For those who haven't read it, I strongly recommend Guy Tal's blog post about the Value and Futility of Critique. I think he hit the nail on head with that one.

What makes NPN special is that it is a critique site more than any of the other resources out there. On the flip side, that means that most people will not post images unless they take the time to offer critiques as well. This is a good thing. But it also means that if I don't have time to offer critiques, I won't be posting images as much. However, I do continue to post images on sites like 500px, Google, and Facebook, as I feel like I can use those sites more passively (eg. comment much less on others' work).

I can imagine that others' may find themselves in a similar position. Because of what NPN offers (quality, but free critiques, and a healthy interactive atmosphere) it will - this is speculation, obviously - naturally see new folks come to the site, learn, and eventually out-grow the value of it (for them), while still returning once in a while to stop by and say hi - perhaps motivated by the opportunity to market themselves. Perhaps it would be in NPN's interest to find a way to get those folks to stick around longer, or more often, but when time is limited, as it is for most people, that can be a tough fight.. so I'm not really sure if there's anything NPN should change, or even be worried about, really.

Just looked at the Alexa ratings for my own site, seems it's mostly women with children browsing from work - excellent - they are the ones with money that influence art purchases for the home (or so I've heard)... now I just need to loosen their wallets...

Even though I regularly visit NPN my participation level has gone down from when I joined in '04. A lot of reasons have been touched on in this thread but one that has not is what I call "pretty picture overload". It's sad to say but I have become somewhat jaded to beautiful images. There are so many crashing wave seascapes, mountain lakes with meadows of flowers and reflected snow capped peaks, kaleidoscopic slot canyons, etc., all in gorgeous light that it gets harder to be moved to comment. I find myself spending less time on photography sites in general these days because of this.


BTW.....the link Floris gave to Guy's critique article is a must read and goes a long way in explaining why lots of people drift away from critique sites over time.