Posted by Peter Coskun on March 28, 2012 at 1:47 AM
I've been asked to be a staff photographer for a nationwide local business directory. I've never really had much interest in commercial photography as nature photography is what I enjoy, but I figured I could probably make some decent money from this as a side job. The job basically has me as a freelance photographer for local businesses while giving a percentage of each assignment back to the company. I did a little research on here about these types of situations, and was wondering if some of you could give me some insight. My first question is simple, how much do I charge, and how do I charge? Would it be logical to charge hourly, by the day, or the overall job including post processing? I don't want to overcharge, but I certainly don't want to be underpaid. The job does involve quite a bit of local travel, so I know that does factor into the price as well as my time working. My next question is what percentage should be given back to this company? The images for these businesses will appear on this companies website as well as the individual businesses website, menu's, brochure's, and other advertisements. Now after reading up about the rights and usage terms, how would I go about that in this case, as both the local businesses and online business directory will be using some of the same images? I've never had to deal with rights or usage terms, so this aspect is new to me. Any help and info is greatly appreciated.
It's an interesting question with a ton of different possible answers. It sounds like they're leaving it up to you to figure out a rate, so does that mean they don't have these types of agreements with other photographers?
If it's up to you to come up with a proposed rate, the most important thing to start with is your Cost of Doing Business. There are some online resources for this. John Harrington writes a lot about the business of photography. The NPPA has a "business practices toolkit," including a CDB calculator on their site that may at least help you consider certain expenses that didn't cost your mind before. You don't want to dig yourself a hole by forgetting a lot of little things that will add up and cost you in the long run.
Finally, I think most folks would tell you to keep your copyright at all costs. This may not be possible of course, since you're shooting for different businesses that are using the images for their own marketing/promotional materials. You may want to see if you can insert some sort of usage limits into your agreement (Company X may use the photos for Y months/years, with a right to renew at Z rate)... and if they push for copyright ownership, you should consider charging a higher rate.
Max
Posted by Lon Overacker on March 28, 2012 at 2:23 PM
Peter,
I'm not a pro and my experience is limited, but I have done "work for hire" jobs in the past. Like Max said, there are tons of possibilities so don't consider this one as the only one. If you think of it in terms of providing a "service" then copyright doesn't have to come in to play unless you demand it. In other words, you are being hired to deliver a service/product. You perform the "service" (taking photos) and deliver them a product (the images.)
I accepted a job and charged a daily rate of $750 as I recall. This included all my time, I paid for the film and I gave them the film (slides) when I was done. They chose the images for publication. They are the owners of the images because that's what they paid me to do. In my case I had no problem with that because the subject I was shooting had no value to me so I didn't care about a copyright.
If you go this route, you can use it as bargaining leverage. Meaning, give them a choice. Pay a flat daily fee or "job" (more on that in a sec) where they retain all the rights, physical media and can use those images in perpetuity. OR, you retain all the images and you charge them for processing and USAGE RIGHTS, AND hourly billing for time in the field, charge for equipment use, your time, etc. etc. So basically it's EASIER for them to just pay a flat rate rather than bicker and billing. As far as the "job" you could define it as anything. You could specify that the job entails 30 days of shooting at your discretion to provide the broadest possible images in different light, different subject matter and content. The "job" would be limited to 16 hours of total time within that 30 day period..." or WHATEVER you want to define as the job. Hope that makes sense. Another example is you could define the job as being available for all business events, functions, during a certain period of time.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Hopefully Hank or some others can chime in.
a friend of mine charges $750 per day, all included. she charges less days than she actually works. 15% is what the company might seek.
Posted by Peter Coskun on March 29, 2012 at 6:07 PM
Thanks for the info Max, Lon, and Stuart. Max I am the only photographer they have contacted (I know the owner of the business that the job was offered). I think one of my other issues with creating a price is that the businesses will vary, some very small mom and pop shops probably wouldn't want to pay over a certain amount, while other businesses such as high end restaurants and spa's might be willing to spend a bit more. Should I have options? As in limit what I will do in terms of photograph, or maybe leave out processing and such. I'm probably going to go with the pay by the day deal, but I would like my prices to be fair for both ends.
Posted by Lon Overacker on March 30, 2012 at 12:02 AM
Peter,
I'm re-reading this, "The job basically has me as a freelance photographer for local businesses while giving a percentage of each assignment back to the company." And it raises a number of questions for me. Who is it that is offering, or hiring you? Is it the National directory? So they are getting 15%? And what are they providing or receiving?? I'm confused now. It seems that they are providing the directory services and this is where the images would be published?? It seems to me that the business directory would hire and pay you for your services and then charge the local businesses appropriately for ad space (the bigger the add the more they charge.. etc.) I don't understand then if you have to "freelance" and approach each individual business, then they hire you? If that's the case then why is the business directory company getting a cut? I'm confusing myself more now...
In the end, your "day rate" should be the same no matter who the client is. You may set a minimum, say 2hrs for $200 bucks and discount it that way, perhaps limit the number of potential images. But your rate must remain consistent - last thing you need for your end of it is to have word get around that you charged big X company $750 for the job but little Ma&Pa only $299.... see where that goes?
Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
I'm late to the party Peter, because we've been on the road for two months with very limited online access.
As the others have indicated, there are many ways to approach it, both in the large business framework and in the day-to-day strategies. I didn't get a clear picture of one detail, and perhaps read over it. It's pretty critical to your business model though: What do you get in return from the company for sharing a percent of your gross receipts? Are you going to get your money's worth from them, or will they simply suck you dry and not help you. You know the folks and can develop an answer, but I'd be very specific (right down to a contract) on what services they will render.
A related point is that kickback on a job-by-job basis, or will they take it from everything you earn. I ask because over the course of time you'll become known to businesses and some come to you directly with zero involvement of the company. Are you obligated to share that "independent" income too?
We have done a whole lot of this kind of photography over the years, but always on our own with no shares-eze such as you're facing. It's a slow process to build, but we found there to be a lot of money available in the business community. I could go on and on (and often do), but here's the nutshell:
Day rates are set by what the local market will bear, and ours is roughly twice what's being bandied here. We didn't start there but we built it to that point as a reflection of our own CDB which included a retirement fund and mortgage payments for the business property. That's paid off, because after 25 years we're in the process of selling the business including commercial building we paid for, and we have a fat retirement account to go with it. Does your CDB calculator include the concept of contributions to your eventual retirement and sale of the business and it's accumulated real estate?
We retain copyrights and all transactions are licensing agreements with terms including duration of usage (usually 1 to 2 years), but that puts the onus on you to be the cop at the end of the contract term. It actually works to your advantage, giving you the perfect opportunity to personally visit the business and discuss it. We have a very high rate of the clients taking us up on offers of another shooting contract and new license to "refresh" their photos in keeping with the changes in their business since the original shoot. Side question- Would your payments to the host company be drawn from both the shooting fees and the license fees, and what about subsequent shoots a year or two down the road?
We joined the Chamber and Rotary, and through those orgs accumulated a long list of acquaintances and contacts within the business community. We use those for annual "promotions" over and above individual contracts. I.e., once a year we assemble a "package" which includes a shoot (we try to keep it to an hour) and two web-ready photos licensed for a year. In our own book keeping the hourly rate is the same while we're offering savings on their license, resulting in a lower price than usual for a comparable service outside the time limit we put on the promotion. This is a killer way to build new business, but would your sponsor company also get a cut?
We base our quotes also on a visit to the site to examine the shooting challenges, a discussion of their photo needs, and usually a negotiation and adjustments to reflect their budget constraints and our own.
Yup, I'm going on and on. Again.
Enuff for now.
Posted by Amy Lindsey on April 9, 2013 at 11:31 PM
Discussion
7 repliesIf it's up to you to come up with a proposed rate, the most important thing to start with is your Cost of Doing Business. There are some online resources for this. John Harrington writes a lot about the business of photography. The NPPA has a "business practices toolkit," including a CDB calculator on their site that may at least help you consider certain expenses that didn't cost your mind before. You don't want to dig yourself a hole by forgetting a lot of little things that will add up and cost you in the long run.
Finally, I think most folks would tell you to keep your copyright at all costs. This may not be possible of course, since you're shooting for different businesses that are using the images for their own marketing/promotional materials. You may want to see if you can insert some sort of usage limits into your agreement (Company X may use the photos for Y months/years, with a right to renew at Z rate)... and if they push for copyright ownership, you should consider charging a higher rate.
Max
I'm not a pro and my experience is limited, but I have done "work for hire" jobs in the past. Like Max said, there are tons of possibilities so don't consider this one as the only one. If you think of it in terms of providing a "service" then copyright doesn't have to come in to play unless you demand it. In other words, you are being hired to deliver a service/product. You perform the "service" (taking photos) and deliver them a product (the images.)
I accepted a job and charged a daily rate of $750 as I recall. This included all my time, I paid for the film and I gave them the film (slides) when I was done. They chose the images for publication. They are the owners of the images because that's what they paid me to do. In my case I had no problem with that because the subject I was shooting had no value to me so I didn't care about a copyright.
If you go this route, you can use it as bargaining leverage. Meaning, give them a choice. Pay a flat daily fee or "job" (more on that in a sec) where they retain all the rights, physical media and can use those images in perpetuity. OR, you retain all the images and you charge them for processing and USAGE RIGHTS, AND hourly billing for time in the field, charge for equipment use, your time, etc. etc. So basically it's EASIER for them to just pay a flat rate rather than bicker and billing. As far as the "job" you could define it as anything. You could specify that the job entails 30 days of shooting at your discretion to provide the broadest possible images in different light, different subject matter and content. The "job" would be limited to 16 hours of total time within that 30 day period..." or WHATEVER you want to define as the job. Hope that makes sense. Another example is you could define the job as being available for all business events, functions, during a certain period of time.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Hopefully Hank or some others can chime in.
Good luck.
Lon
I'm re-reading this, "The job basically has me as a freelance photographer for local businesses while giving a percentage of each assignment back to the company." And it raises a number of questions for me. Who is it that is offering, or hiring you? Is it the National directory? So they are getting 15%? And what are they providing or receiving?? I'm confused now. It seems that they are providing the directory services and this is where the images would be published?? It seems to me that the business directory would hire and pay you for your services and then charge the local businesses appropriately for ad space (the bigger the add the more they charge.. etc.) I don't understand then if you have to "freelance" and approach each individual business, then they hire you? If that's the case then why is the business directory company getting a cut? I'm confusing myself more now...
In the end, your "day rate" should be the same no matter who the client is. You may set a minimum, say 2hrs for $200 bucks and discount it that way, perhaps limit the number of potential images. But your rate must remain consistent - last thing you need for your end of it is to have word get around that you charged big X company $750 for the job but little Ma&Pa only $299.... see where that goes?
Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
Lon
As the others have indicated, there are many ways to approach it, both in the large business framework and in the day-to-day strategies. I didn't get a clear picture of one detail, and perhaps read over it. It's pretty critical to your business model though: What do you get in return from the company for sharing a percent of your gross receipts? Are you going to get your money's worth from them, or will they simply suck you dry and not help you. You know the folks and can develop an answer, but I'd be very specific (right down to a contract) on what services they will render.
A related point is that kickback on a job-by-job basis, or will they take it from everything you earn. I ask because over the course of time you'll become known to businesses and some come to you directly with zero involvement of the company. Are you obligated to share that "independent" income too?
We have done a whole lot of this kind of photography over the years, but always on our own with no shares-eze such as you're facing. It's a slow process to build, but we found there to be a lot of money available in the business community. I could go on and on (and often do), but here's the nutshell:
Day rates are set by what the local market will bear, and ours is roughly twice what's being bandied here. We didn't start there but we built it to that point as a reflection of our own CDB which included a retirement fund and mortgage payments for the business property. That's paid off, because after 25 years we're in the process of selling the business including commercial building we paid for, and we have a fat retirement account to go with it. Does your CDB calculator include the concept of contributions to your eventual retirement and sale of the business and it's accumulated real estate?
We retain copyrights and all transactions are licensing agreements with terms including duration of usage (usually 1 to 2 years), but that puts the onus on you to be the cop at the end of the contract term. It actually works to your advantage, giving you the perfect opportunity to personally visit the business and discuss it. We have a very high rate of the clients taking us up on offers of another shooting contract and new license to "refresh" their photos in keeping with the changes in their business since the original shoot. Side question- Would your payments to the host company be drawn from both the shooting fees and the license fees, and what about subsequent shoots a year or two down the road?
We joined the Chamber and Rotary, and through those orgs accumulated a long list of acquaintances and contacts within the business community. We use those for annual "promotions" over and above individual contracts. I.e., once a year we assemble a "package" which includes a shoot (we try to keep it to an hour) and two web-ready photos licensed for a year. In our own book keeping the hourly rate is the same while we're offering savings on their license, resulting in a lower price than usual for a comparable service outside the time limit we put on the promotion. This is a killer way to build new business, but would your sponsor company also get a cut?
We base our quotes also on a visit to the site to examine the shooting challenges, a discussion of their photo needs, and usually a negotiation and adjustments to reflect their budget constraints and our own.
Yup, I'm going on and on. Again.
Enuff for now.