At the rookery at St. Augustine Alligator Farm yesterday afternoon there were tons of photographers, most with big lens and expensive-looking tripods, and all or almost all were shooting images at very steep angles, mostly up to the tops of trees but some also down to the ground. I could be getting lots more images if I did that. Should I be doing that? Am I being silly not to?
Also, many were shooting images that I looked at through my viewfinder and no matter how I composed there was a lot of vegetation immediately behind, around, and in front of the subject, whether the subject was a nest or a single bird. Is it your guess that they're seeing something I'm not seeing?
As an example of the second paragraph above, the image I posted in this forum of the great egret parent and fledgling has OOF leaves in front of the fledgling. To me that meant it's not a technically good image, which is why I didn't post it in the critique gallery. Am I right or wrong about that?
Thank you, as always, for your insight and thoughts.
Barbara
I live near places that attract bird photographers from all over. I sometimes see photographers with expensive equipment doing what you describe - poor light, sub-optimal angles, poor backgrounds, objects interfering with a clear shot. Maybe they want to get the bird because it is a rarity where they come from. Maybe they just don't recognize the impediments. Just because they have good gear doesn't necessarily mean they know how to use it well. If you don't see a good photo, what's the point in wasting your effort just to press the delete button later on.
Making good photographs isn't magic. It takes experience, practice, and skill. If you wonder what they getting, perhaps if you ask, they will share. Maybe you could pick up a tip or two; Or maybe you will see that they are making photos you would would rather pass by.
Posted by Richard Ditch on April 28, 2012 at 5:26 PM
Just because they have good gear doesn't necessarily mean they know how to use it well.
My thoughts exactly. I've met many people who are mostly clueless about using their gear correctly, as well as many people who can't discriminate between a good photo and a bad one (of their own or someone else's).
If you don't see a quality image in the viewfinder it is highly unlikely that you'll find a quality shot when you get it to the computer. Photoshop is a poor substitute for geting it right when you press the shutter release. You have demonstrated that you know how to see a good image and how to capture it with the camera and how to fine tune it in post processing; let the wanna be shooters engage in "catch and release" photography (taking shots you're just going to delete later).
Barbara, you live in a state with abundant birding opportunities. For many who visit FL it is our first opportunity to photograph an egret, heron, pelican, spoonbill etc. at close range. When I travel I find myself taking record shots that won't make the cut just in case I don't have another opportunity. With digital it is easy to delete if a better shot comes later in the day. We do get some egrets and herons in CT, but only for a few short months and few in number. Enjoy and appreciate what FL has to offer.
Posted by Greg Lessard on April 29, 2012 at 8:11 AM
I agree with the other posters so far. Thank you Pat for mentioning the record shot scenario. For some people this can be their way of collecting something.
As for steep angles, it depends on what you like. Not what I like and not what anyone else likes. Having said that, many people try not to shoot down at an animal, because it gives a human perspective to the image. We almost always look down at animals that are smaller than us. We can't help it, we are simply taller. To make an image more interesting, many photographers will go to great lengths to photograph at the animal's eye level or slightly lower. This makes the statement that the animal is important and that we are seeing the world at their level or perspective when we look at the photograph. Conversely, photographing up at a bird can make a lot of sense, because they do spend a lot of time in trees.
As for Venice, their is often a lot of vegetation, but their are also many opportunities to wait for a bird to move to a spot where there is little or no vegetation in the way. It is a favorite birding spot for a reason.
Ocassionally, you might see a photographer purposely shoot through vegetation (think multiple blades of grass rather than through solid large leaves). With a low f stop the vegetation may seemingly disappear in the image leaving only a resulting image of the animal. The vegetation must be very close to the lens to do this. Sports photographer do this all the time when the need an angle that has a chain link fence in the way. They put their lens up to the fence, use a low f stop, and focus at the athlete who is hopefully 20-30 feet away or more. The downside to this trick is that the fence or vegetation will often be shown as a haze of color in the image. It can be a great effect if the color is complimentary to the image. While I don't think this is what you were describing, I thought it would be worth mentioning.
FInally, I'd like to share a story about Venice. I was photographing there one morning when a very well known photographer brought his students there. They all had between $10,000-$20,000 worth of equipment. Not one of them knew anything about how to use it. ( I did have a little lens envy at the time.) As the photographer taught I listened. He taught well, but the students did not learn well. They were confused. They were new to photography, that's why they were taking the workshop. The photographer worked hard to help them understand. In some cases they were lazy or lacking confidence. I couldn't believe it when, with one lady, she was so confused, that the photographer set up the camera, adjusted all of the settings and focused it on a subject for her. The photographer smiled at her and said, "You're all set, fire away." She replied by saying "Oh would you take the shot for me, you are so much better than me." I was stunned. All she had to do was press one button!! My point in sharing this story is that you will see many people at Venice who are learning, which is great, just have fun and make the best of your time in that beautiful place! If you are really interested in what someone else is doing, chat them up. After establishing contact, ask them about what they are doing. Most people are happy to share techniques and swap advice. Just realize that some might brush you off and you can simply move on.
Thank you very much for the replies. They all make a lot of sense. Greg, what a story!
Posted by Paul DeCesare on April 30, 2012 at 4:54 PM
I'm not a birder, but some excellent points were made here. The gear heads do concentrate on "what the camera can do", and I admit I used to be there. So often I hear "Well, I'm just shooting snapshots, I haven;t learned all this camera can do yet", and when I hear that I go batty. A camera captures light, not an image. We have to make sure the right amount of light hits the film or sensor. That means understanding how to balance your shutter speed, aperture and ISO to get the right amount of light to the sensor. PERIOD. To get creative, we have the wonderful choice to increase speed to stop action or open up aperture to blur a background, etc, but when we do, the other two settings have to be adjusted to bring in the right light. Camera bodies have great options to help you do that, but I wish students were taught that nothing is added by the camera to auto-magically create an Ansel landscape. But what we do have is the next wonderful option: picking the lens to get the look we want and then pounting that lens where we choose to create interest in the scene ("holy smokes, is he ever going to get to the point???"). Yes, lol. The point is, knowing that you (Barbara) have to expose correctly, you can point up or down or whatever direction you want to create interest in the scene and long as you remember two crucial things: set the visible items in the scene in a way that the eye doesn't leave but stays looking into the composition, and MOST importantly, shoot where the light is awesome. If the bird is straight up or straight down or standing on top of the Golden Arches Next to the Beaverton Mall, if the light is outrageous and you expose it properly and you compose in a way to tell your viewer "WOW, look at this!", then you have a great chance of a image to be proud of. Even on a Canon AE-1 film body with a Vivitar Lens you bought on clearance at Goodwill. If there's one thing you will notice about the killer images all across NPN, the folks on here have worked hard to capture great light on the subjects they are passionate about. When the sun first pops up in the morning, even your backyard lawn looks intriguing when it's totally side-lit in the golden light, doesn't it? So the question isn't "should I be pointing up at a steep angle", it should be a statement like" WHOA, look how the diffused morning light through that Douglas Fir is illuminating the gorgeous color of that Blue Jay, I need to capture that!"
That's one person's take on this crazy artform we love, take it in with the ideas and approaches of others as you build and learn your craft!
Posted by Dan Roberts on April 30, 2012 at 6:08 PM
I've had similar experiences and am always amused. Fortunately for Japan, expensive camera gear is like a Ferrari. All one needs is money to buy it, driving skills are optional. Luckily camera gear isn't as likely to kill a person as a Ferrari...
Just wanted to update this. Yesterday I actually listened to what people were talking about, and I realized that, like some of you said, these are people who are interested in photography as a hobby and have the money to spend big bucks on big lenses and other equipment even if they don't quite know what to do with it yet, and also that most of them are not from Florida but are from other states or countries. To me that second part means that they probably do want to get images of all the birds they can while they're there even if they're up very high, down very low, in the middle of twigs and vegetation or whatever.
For some reason I had thought that most of the people there would be local professional or serious amateur photographers, which is why, as I said above, I couldn't figure out why they were taking the shots they seemed to be taking. But now that I realize that's not the case and especially that they're mostly from other places it all makes sense.
Per a suggestion someone made, I also asked one guy who was shooting a Tricolored Heron in the center of a tree, completely surrounded by twigs, if I could ask him a question, and he said yes. I asked him what he was doing about the twigs. He said, "That's the problem." I said, "I thought maybe you had a secret," and we both laughed.
So, bottom line, it's all clear to me now. And thank you all again. :)
Discussion
8 repliesAlso, many were shooting images that I looked at through my viewfinder and no matter how I composed there was a lot of vegetation immediately behind, around, and in front of the subject, whether the subject was a nest or a single bird. Is it your guess that they're seeing something I'm not seeing?
As an example of the second paragraph above, the image I posted in this forum of the great egret parent and fledgling has OOF leaves in front of the fledgling. To me that meant it's not a technically good image, which is why I didn't post it in the critique gallery. Am I right or wrong about that?
Thank you, as always, for your insight and thoughts.
I live near places that attract bird photographers from all over. I sometimes see photographers with expensive equipment doing what you describe - poor light, sub-optimal angles, poor backgrounds, objects interfering with a clear shot. Maybe they want to get the bird because it is a rarity where they come from. Maybe they just don't recognize the impediments. Just because they have good gear doesn't necessarily mean they know how to use it well. If you don't see a good photo, what's the point in wasting your effort just to press the delete button later on.
Making good photographs isn't magic. It takes experience, practice, and skill. If you wonder what they getting, perhaps if you ask, they will share. Maybe you could pick up a tip or two; Or maybe you will see that they are making photos you would would rather pass by.
My thoughts exactly. I've met many people who are mostly clueless about using their gear correctly, as well as many people who can't discriminate between a good photo and a bad one (of their own or someone else's).
If you don't see a quality image in the viewfinder it is highly unlikely that you'll find a quality shot when you get it to the computer. Photoshop is a poor substitute for geting it right when you press the shutter release. You have demonstrated that you know how to see a good image and how to capture it with the camera and how to fine tune it in post processing; let the wanna be shooters engage in "catch and release" photography (taking shots you're just going to delete later).
As for steep angles, it depends on what you like. Not what I like and not what anyone else likes. Having said that, many people try not to shoot down at an animal, because it gives a human perspective to the image. We almost always look down at animals that are smaller than us. We can't help it, we are simply taller. To make an image more interesting, many photographers will go to great lengths to photograph at the animal's eye level or slightly lower. This makes the statement that the animal is important and that we are seeing the world at their level or perspective when we look at the photograph. Conversely, photographing up at a bird can make a lot of sense, because they do spend a lot of time in trees.
As for Venice, their is often a lot of vegetation, but their are also many opportunities to wait for a bird to move to a spot where there is little or no vegetation in the way. It is a favorite birding spot for a reason.
Ocassionally, you might see a photographer purposely shoot through vegetation (think multiple blades of grass rather than through solid large leaves). With a low f stop the vegetation may seemingly disappear in the image leaving only a resulting image of the animal. The vegetation must be very close to the lens to do this. Sports photographer do this all the time when the need an angle that has a chain link fence in the way. They put their lens up to the fence, use a low f stop, and focus at the athlete who is hopefully 20-30 feet away or more. The downside to this trick is that the fence or vegetation will often be shown as a haze of color in the image. It can be a great effect if the color is complimentary to the image. While I don't think this is what you were describing, I thought it would be worth mentioning.
FInally, I'd like to share a story about Venice. I was photographing there one morning when a very well known photographer brought his students there. They all had between $10,000-$20,000 worth of equipment. Not one of them knew anything about how to use it. ( I did have a little lens envy at the time.) As the photographer taught I listened. He taught well, but the students did not learn well. They were confused. They were new to photography, that's why they were taking the workshop. The photographer worked hard to help them understand. In some cases they were lazy or lacking confidence. I couldn't believe it when, with one lady, she was so confused, that the photographer set up the camera, adjusted all of the settings and focused it on a subject for her. The photographer smiled at her and said, "You're all set, fire away." She replied by saying "Oh would you take the shot for me, you are so much better than me." I was stunned. All she had to do was press one button!! My point in sharing this story is that you will see many people at Venice who are learning, which is great, just have fun and make the best of your time in that beautiful place! If you are really interested in what someone else is doing, chat them up. After establishing contact, ask them about what they are doing. Most people are happy to share techniques and swap advice. Just realize that some might brush you off and you can simply move on.
That's one person's take on this crazy artform we love, take it in with the ideas and approaches of others as you build and learn your craft!
Maybe I'm just bitter with envy
For some reason I had thought that most of the people there would be local professional or serious amateur photographers, which is why, as I said above, I couldn't figure out why they were taking the shots they seemed to be taking. But now that I realize that's not the case and especially that they're mostly from other places it all makes sense.
Per a suggestion someone made, I also asked one guy who was shooting a Tricolored Heron in the center of a tree, completely surrounded by twigs, if I could ask him a question, and he said yes. I asked him what he was doing about the twigs. He said, "That's the problem." I said, "I thought maybe you had a secret," and we both laughed.
So, bottom line, it's all clear to me now. And thank you all again. :)