I have been asked by a very wealthy, very close friend (who is in turn then a client), to provide eight large photos for a new dining facility he is rebuilding.
Each photo is to be approximately 40-inches(H)X 60-inches(W) to fit the available spaces while providing impact.
My printer/framer and I came up with three options for my customer, with protection and visibility and ease-of-installation in mind:
Option 1--A 40x60 print on luster paper using a thin metal/wood frame, covered by sheet of plexi inside. No mat. Solid and easy to install.
Price: 40x60 archival print: $215 frame/plexi: $335 TOTAL $550
Option 2--A 36x56-inch print on luster paper, using two sheets of plexi, one for backing, 2nd for front protection. All clips and hardware included with the plexi package.
Price: 36x56 archival print: $185 two sheets 40x60 plexi (plus all hardware & assembly included): $365 TOTAL $550
Option 3--40x60 print on luster paper, photo backing material (not foam core), plus 40x60 plexi cover for protection and stability.
The result when I presented options to my wealthy customer: a heated discussion ensued in which he accused the printer who is doing all of the assembly and printing of gouging the prices. He insists he can get the photos printed "anywhere for less". I asked what, "on toilet paper or a xerox copy?" (this was toward the end of the frustrating conversation that i tried to keep professional, but...)
Earlier, he had gotten into the disparity between the price for the two sheet plexi "sandwich" ($365 in option #2, or $182.50 per sheet in his eyes) vs. the one sheet of plexi and mounting board in option #3 ($135 for backing board and one top sheet plexi).
Without my supplier there to explain, I surmised it is because it is more labor intensive for him to put together the brackets & pins that will be used in the "sandwich" rather than simply preparing a front and back to be drilled into the wall.
He insists he can get it done for a lot cheaper and just as professionally. I think a 40x60 framed or plexi-sanwiched piece of art for $550 is a "steal".
I tried to keep it brief as I could, but I am really interested in opinions. These are all assembled, all delivered to the place they are going to hang. I'm kind of incredulous and trying to save the project,
I'm with you, Bill. The price is not too high, but rather too low, IMO! People don't understand that our work has value beyond the cost of the materials, and it's getting old to hear it, actually. I print 20x 30's cut my own mats, do the mounting to the backer board and fit the mat. I purchase sheets of glass, and frame shells that I assemble and fit with wire hangers. I do all of this myself and then ask $400.00 for it. I certainly don't think that's gouging! If I get full asking price, I am able to replace the piece, and take a few bucks for myself. We are intitle to a profit, are we not?
I don't know what to offer you that will change your clients' view on the matter. But in the end, what something is worth, is what someone is willing to pay for it.
A very wealthy very close friend and he nickel and dimes his friend. I guess that is how he became wealthy. I suggest you ask him what printer to send your files to and let him have the work done. You make nothing but retain a very close friend. Bill, you can find other clients.
Thank you Chris, totally agree. Your points are all valid, and we provided three options. None of which included any % to me--we agree to do that separately with him giving me a flat amount to me. I've already got many hours into this.
Well, yes and no Ross, I am caught in the middle here--but yes, i am the one that is bearing the brunt of it. I assured him I am covering his back, and making sure there is nobody taking advantage here, but...
My last response to him was what you suggested--having him use my photos, and finding someone else to do the printing and framing. I have seen him in action before, and he is normally a quiet, fun guy who you wouldn't know had a nickel or a dime!! Literally. But in business he gets involved in... it's his way or no way, at his price.
I have not heard back in the meantime. Life goes on, the friendship, not sure. Hopefully his wife can add some sanity.
The price definitely seems on the low side, he's getting quite the 'steal' - I would say. I recently sold a 40" x 60" acrylic face-mounted print to a wealthy client/friend. He's a true appreciator of the art - so he didn't bat an eye when I told him it would cost $3,200 with shipping. Horses for courses though
I think the real reason why he didn't question the price is because I educated him on the 'process' of the work. Not just the printing and mounting difficulties of an image that large, but also the time that went into me planning and shooting the image, the amount of effort I put out to get it (a 10-mile mountain hike including a badly sprained ankle on day 1), my 15+ years of experience behind the image, having to pay my own health insurance, the tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment investment that makes the images possible and of high quality, and the fact that print sales are not a steady source of income like working an 8-5 salary job is. Print sales need to also make up for the time that I'm not selling anything.
It's all about educating prospective clients. If they can't (or refuse to be) educated, I suggest NOT caving to their cheapness. If you lower your prices once for them, they'll ask you to do the same in the future (as might other clients). This will do nothing to help you prove the fine art factor that allows you to charge more than a standard Walmart/Costco print price.
I wouldn't let him have any of those options for less than $1000.00 and that's only if he's my best friend. If he's a client, $1500.00 would be my minimum. You definitely should be taking a significant cut. For the restaurant to make money, they have to charge at least 300% more than what their product costs them. You should consider doing the same. Since he is ordering eight of them, you might consider giving him a volume discount of $2,000.00-$4,000.00 for a total of $8,000-$10,000.00. The other thing I try to avoid is quoting the costs of materials and labor to my clients. It never goes well for you the photographer when you reveal your costs. People will always think they can do it cheaper... Good luck!
From looking at your website, I can see that you are a very accomplished photographer (and well known on this forum). Is there any way that you can look at the issue as an advertising venture and still work to keep your friendship? If there is a dining facility, can you get more exposure for your work? There will always be photographic opportunities in your life; are you able to say the same about GOOD friends? I hope you work it out and your friend hears wonderful comments on the images every day - just to rub it in a little
Hi Bill,
I believe that the error here is pricing the prints on the basis of printing, mounting, matting, framing and other production costs. I always teach to my students to price their work on the basis of leverage, and if they are asked about the cost of production, to answer that 'the paper, frame, mat, etc. are only a minor part of the price. The price is essentially a reflection of my leverage, reputation, style and demand.' If worst comes to worst, I suggest lowering the price of the work by the costs of production, which if your work is priced correctly and done by you (frame shops are expensive) is not more than 5 to 10% of the price. For example, if you sold the 40x50 for $5000, your production costs would be indeed 10%, based on what you indicate above. $5000 is a common price for a piece this large done by a professional photographer with a good reputation and leverage.
I never talk to a client friend or not (and I have sold work to close friends) about what my costs are, that is totally irrelevant so in my opinion you have lost this from the beginning. If a friend wants to purchase your work it's fine to give them discount if you want but it must be based on what your retail cost is. That retail cost is the only cost a potential client needs to know. In my opinion you have undermined yourself in this potential transaction.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts and advice. It has all been settled at the original price quote... all eight large framed photos, plus many smaller ones. Friendship still in tact too. ;)
My wife and I had a very successful studio in the 70's and 80's. Our standard price for 40x50 or 40x60, mounted and framed was $4,000 then. The actual cost by H&H Labs was around $250.00 mounted and sprayed plus art work which would be 50 to 100 bucks. Frame would be around $400. Today I wouldn't even consider anything under 5K for each print.
Something I learned 50 years ago in photography for very large jobs such as the above, calculate the full price including your profit, divide it by 12, and lease it monthly. In the above case for 8 prints, I'd charge $40,000 total, lease it for $3,334 monthly. In tax law that is 100% deductible and the monthly amount isn't very much, relatively speaking. Toward the end of the year, I'd ask the customer if he would like to replace the prints next year!
Discussion
10 repliesEach photo is to be approximately 40-inches(H)X 60-inches(W) to fit the available spaces while providing impact.
My printer/framer and I came up with three options for my customer, with protection and visibility and ease-of-installation in mind:
Option 1--A 40x60 print on luster paper using a thin metal/wood frame, covered by sheet of plexi inside. No mat. Solid and easy to install.
Price: 40x60 archival print: $215 frame/plexi: $335 TOTAL $550
Option 2--A 36x56-inch print on luster paper, using two sheets of plexi, one for backing, 2nd for front protection. All clips and hardware included with the plexi package.
Price: 36x56 archival print: $185 two sheets 40x60 plexi (plus all hardware & assembly included): $365 TOTAL $550
Option 3--40x60 print on luster paper, photo backing material (not foam core), plus 40x60 plexi cover for protection and stability.
Price: 40x60 archival print: $215 Mounting Board/1 sheet plexi: $135
TOTAL: $350
Your opinions???
The result when I presented options to my wealthy customer: a heated discussion ensued in which he accused the printer who is doing all of the assembly and printing of gouging the prices. He insists he can get the photos printed "anywhere for less". I asked what, "on toilet paper or a xerox copy?" (this was toward the end of the frustrating conversation that i tried to keep professional, but...)
Earlier, he had gotten into the disparity between the price for the two sheet plexi "sandwich" ($365 in option #2, or $182.50 per sheet in his eyes) vs. the one sheet of plexi and mounting board in option #3 ($135 for backing board and one top sheet plexi).
Without my supplier there to explain, I surmised it is because it is more labor intensive for him to put together the brackets & pins that will be used in the "sandwich" rather than simply preparing a front and back to be drilled into the wall.
He insists he can get it done for a lot cheaper and just as professionally. I think a 40x60 framed or plexi-sanwiched piece of art for $550 is a "steal".
I tried to keep it brief as I could, but I am really interested in opinions. These are all assembled, all delivered to the place they are going to hang. I'm kind of incredulous and trying to save the project,
I don't know what to offer you that will change your clients' view on the matter. But in the end, what something is worth, is what someone is willing to pay for it.
Chris
Well, yes and no Ross, I am caught in the middle here--but yes, i am the one that is bearing the brunt of it. I assured him I am covering his back, and making sure there is nobody taking advantage here, but...
My last response to him was what you suggested--having him use my photos, and finding someone else to do the printing and framing. I have seen him in action before, and he is normally a quiet, fun guy who you wouldn't know had a nickel or a dime!! Literally. But in business he gets involved in... it's his way or no way, at his price.
I have not heard back in the meantime. Life goes on, the friendship, not sure. Hopefully his wife can add some sanity.
I think the real reason why he didn't question the price is because I educated him on the 'process' of the work. Not just the printing and mounting difficulties of an image that large, but also the time that went into me planning and shooting the image, the amount of effort I put out to get it (a 10-mile mountain hike including a badly sprained ankle on day 1), my 15+ years of experience behind the image, having to pay my own health insurance, the tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment investment that makes the images possible and of high quality, and the fact that print sales are not a steady source of income like working an 8-5 salary job is. Print sales need to also make up for the time that I'm not selling anything.
It's all about educating prospective clients. If they can't (or refuse to be) educated, I suggest NOT caving to their cheapness. If you lower your prices once for them, they'll ask you to do the same in the future (as might other clients). This will do nothing to help you prove the fine art factor that allows you to charge more than a standard Walmart/Costco print price.
I believe that the error here is pricing the prints on the basis of printing, mounting, matting, framing and other production costs. I always teach to my students to price their work on the basis of leverage, and if they are asked about the cost of production, to answer that 'the paper, frame, mat, etc. are only a minor part of the price. The price is essentially a reflection of my leverage, reputation, style and demand.' If worst comes to worst, I suggest lowering the price of the work by the costs of production, which if your work is priced correctly and done by you (frame shops are expensive) is not more than 5 to 10% of the price. For example, if you sold the 40x50 for $5000, your production costs would be indeed 10%, based on what you indicate above. $5000 is a common price for a piece this large done by a professional photographer with a good reputation and leverage.
ALain
Something I learned 50 years ago in photography for very large jobs such as the above, calculate the full price including your profit, divide it by 12, and lease it monthly. In the above case for 8 prints, I'd charge $40,000 total, lease it for $3,334 monthly. In tax law that is 100% deductible and the monthly amount isn't very much, relatively speaking. Toward the end of the year, I'd ask the customer if he would like to replace the prints next year!
Lynn