Posted by Larry Fischer on July 17, 2012 at 12:27 PM
Daughter-in-law is running for the Kansas Senate. We were doing door-to-door Sunday evening and on the way home from Silver Lake I stopped on top of a hill and snapped several photos. Glad I had my tripod.
Nikon d700. Nikkor 50mm f/1.2 manual. NX2 processing.
the fisch
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Brian.
Yeah, I violated the rule of thirds. I wondered if most of the color in the sky should be emphasized--or not. Following your suggestion the blue would remain which is what I want retained.
Good observation and comment.
I'm wondering if it is a tad dark?
the fisch
Posted by Wayne Rhodus on July 18, 2012 at 9:30 AM
A beautiful Kansas sunset. Wish some of those clouds would morph into some significant rainfall.
Larry, I think I would definitely leave a layer of the blue in the sky if you consider a crop because that adds to the layered look of the composition. My reasoning for suggesting the crop had less to do with the rule of thirds and more to do with the fact that most of the interest in the image lies along the horizon.
I think the overall brightness on this one is good. One thing that would be worth trying is to maybe work on the contrast a little in the blue area of the sky to create a little more separation between the clouds and the blue sky. For my taste I would like to see the blue a bit more saturated too - not too much but maybe just a smidge.
Larry, I saw your question in the thread with my image. I posted a response there but just in case you don't see that I will also post my response here:
Larry, I don't have the Nikon Capture NX2 software for comparison. My understanding is that this is just a RAW conversion software so I assume it is similar to Adobe Camera Raw which I use as my RAW converter. If this is accurate, Tony's actions are different in that they work using layer masks in Photoshop which offer more control and the benefit of working with layers which do not permanently change the base image and can be deleted at any time if you decide you no longer like the effect or if your processing skills have improved and you know how to improve the image. You might hear this referred to as a non-destructive workflow because any changes that you make do not affect the bottom layer image provided that you make the changes with layers and masks.
Basically, Tony has created actions which use built in functionality in Photoshop to make the steps a little more efficient and easy to use. It is entirely possible to use the tools that Tony has developed with a manual process but it is more time consuming and takes a while to get your arms around. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Photoshop actions but an action is similar to a macro in a Microsoft application if that helps - basically it just automates a step by step process that you use routinely. I have found Tony's actions to be well worth the cost but to get the benefit from them you will need to have an understanding of how to use layers and masks in Photoshop as well as curves adjustments.
The luminosity masks use the existing channel masks in Photoshop to create a mask based on the various tonal values in the image. You then use this mask with the existing layer adjustments in Photoshop such as curves or levels. This gives you more control over adjustments that you make because you can target specific tonalities within the image (ie: bright highlights, midtones, or shadow areas). The saturation masks also select specific values based on the amount of saturation in certain colors so that when you make a saturation adjustment it doesn't affect areas that are already saturated as much compared to a global saturation adjustment.
Honestly, I started working with Photoshop with no background at all - and I still have a lot to learn. It can be intimidating at first but now that I know more of what some of the functions do I am not as intimidated. If you are interested in learning more I would recommend some video tutorials by NPN photographer Sean Bagshaw. He offers three different tutorial sets beginning with the basics. I would start here as this will lay a foundation for the more detailed tutorials. I have purchased all three tutorials, and while it is a bit pricey if you buy all three, I find video tutorials to be the best way to learn because you can actually see what he is doing and what effect it is having on the image. It's one thing to know how to create a curves adjustment layer but another thing all together to know what to do with it once you have created it. He shows you how to do this. I feel like the tutorials are easy to follow and his teaching style is very good as well - he doesn't talk over your head. He discusses how to use Tony Kuyper's luminosity masks in the "Processing for Extended Dynamic Range" tutorial and he walks you through how to create the masks manually as well. But again I would recommend that you start with the "Photoshop Basics for Nature Photographers" tutorial. He has made some revisions to the tutorial since I purchased it. I noticed this on a blog post that he had made on the Photo Cascadia website where he was discussing a specific adjustment which he had added to his tutorials. When I asked about a particular step and mentioned that I had purchased the tutorials before they were revised he was nice enough to send a link so that I could download the updated tutorial. So I can say that my experience has been very positive.
EDIT: As a side note, since I don't know how familiar you are with Photoshop I don't know if anything that I said above makes sense.
Honestly, before I purchased Sean's tutorials if I would have read what I just typed most of it would have gone well over my head so I understand completely if it all sounds overwhelming. If you have more questions feel free to post them.
Brian,
I very much appreciate the time you took to explain. I still have questions.
First, Nikon's Capture NX2 is more than a RAW converter; it is non-destructive.
I also have, but have not used much, Capture One Pro which seems to do a lot of what you say about PhotoShop.
I really don't understand the "mask" term so will have to look that up. It would seem that any time a portion of the photo is altered a mask is applied if the process is non-destructive.
Luminosity masks in Capture One are available for each RGB color or combined.
Selective areas in both these programs can be altered in various ways. I don't believe NX2 has any automated functions.
So, I would like to have PhotoShop but there are other lenses and photo accoutrements I would like, too.
Will snuggle up to some friend who has perhaps the programs you mentioned and see if I should yet again invest in another program.
Should have gone with PhotoShop in the first place but I was using "bird photo techniques"-- cheap, cheap.
Kindest regards,
Laryy
I definitely understand about competing financial priorities when it comes to photography. My wishlist is too long and expensive too!!
I really can't speak to your questions about Nikon's Capture NX2 or the Capture One Pro software since I don't have any experience with either tool. Maybe you would get some good information from the Digital Imaging forum.
Regarding your question about masks...I will start with an explanation of layers since it sounds like you don't have much Photoshop experience. I like to think of layers like picture books that I remember seeing when I was a kid. You had a picture on the main page and then you had clear transparent pages that had part of a the picture that was then layered on the base picture. They usually stacked a few of the transparent layers over one another to add elements to the picture. Layers in Photoshop are very similar in concept. You start with the base image, or background layer. On top of that you can create adjustment layers to control things such as contrast, saturation, color balance, etc. Using layers is non-destructive because the adjustments are made on the adjustment layers and not the background layer which has the original image. You can go add or delete new layers at anytime and in most cases you can edit adjustments that you make on a layer after the fact.
A mask further enhances the functionality of a layer. Generally speaking when you make an adjustment using an adjustment layer the effect of that adjustment is applied to the whole image, or globally. Masks enable you to target the adjustments to specific parts of the image. With a mask you generally start with a white mask (which is the default) which enables all of the adjustment to show through. This is like layering over a clear transparency over the page with the picture. You can then paint on the mask using a black brush at various levels of opacity to allow more or less of the adjustment to show through. A 100% black brush completely hides the adjustment, while a 100% white brush completely reveals the adjustment that you make. Using the opacity slider on a black brush you can show various degrees of the adjustment.
The challenges with masks is that it is difficult to get a smooth transition. For example if you have a bright sky with dark trees protruding into the sky it is virtually impossible to make a selection that enables you to create a clean mask. The advantage of Tony Kuyper's luminosity masks is that the actions create a mask using the channels palette which is basically a grey scale map of the tones in the image. This gives you a perfectly feathered mask of your image and gives you greater control over the tonality and contrast in your image without creating haloing or unwanted digital artifacts in the image. I think if you could see it in action it would make a lot more sense. It is hard to describe if you don't have a frame of reference.
Posted by Darren Huski on July 20, 2012 at 7:53 AM
Larry, since Photoshop is a significant investment it might be worth reviewing some information here: http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/topics.html. Here you will find both written and video tutorials that are available that can give you an overview of the functionality of Photoshop.
It might even be worth purchasing and viewing Sean's tutorial on Photoshop Basics to get a feel for the functionality of Photoshop and how it might benefit you as a nature photographer. It is a little expensive, but if it helps you make an informed decision about whether Photoshop is right for you it might be worth it.
If you know of anyone locally who uses Photoshop that would be a tremendous resource - maybe they could walk you through some of the basics so that you can decide if it really is for you.
Photoshop is a powerful tool but in addition to being expensive it is complex and not particularly intuitive unless you have some guidance about how to use it or a background with it. As I have said it is also a bit intimidating for first time users and the learning curve is a bit steep - especially on your own. Apart from video tutorials I don't think I would know how to do much beyond basic sharpening, etc.
I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another but before you make a significant investment in the software I would recommend that you do some research to find out for sure whether you think it is for you.
Additionally, although Tony's tools are powerful, you will not get any benefit from them until you have an understanding of how to use adjustment layers and layer masks which will require some guidance and practice. I would recommend that you wait to purchase Tony's actions until you have some proficiency with layers and masks since they are the foundation for using Tony's actions.
Discussion
11 repliesNikon d700. Nikkor 50mm f/1.2 manual. NX2 processing.
the fisch
Yeah, I violated the rule of thirds. I wondered if most of the color in the sky should be emphasized--or not. Following your suggestion the blue would remain which is what I want retained.
Good observation and comment.
I'm wondering if it is a tad dark?
the fisch
I think the overall brightness on this one is good. One thing that would be worth trying is to maybe work on the contrast a little in the blue area of the sky to create a little more separation between the clouds and the blue sky. For my taste I would like to see the blue a bit more saturated too - not too much but maybe just a smidge.
Larry, I don't have the Nikon Capture NX2 software for comparison. My understanding is that this is just a RAW conversion software so I assume it is similar to Adobe Camera Raw which I use as my RAW converter. If this is accurate, Tony's actions are different in that they work using layer masks in Photoshop which offer more control and the benefit of working with layers which do not permanently change the base image and can be deleted at any time if you decide you no longer like the effect or if your processing skills have improved and you know how to improve the image. You might hear this referred to as a non-destructive workflow because any changes that you make do not affect the bottom layer image provided that you make the changes with layers and masks.
Basically, Tony has created actions which use built in functionality in Photoshop to make the steps a little more efficient and easy to use. It is entirely possible to use the tools that Tony has developed with a manual process but it is more time consuming and takes a while to get your arms around. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Photoshop actions but an action is similar to a macro in a Microsoft application if that helps - basically it just automates a step by step process that you use routinely. I have found Tony's actions to be well worth the cost but to get the benefit from them you will need to have an understanding of how to use layers and masks in Photoshop as well as curves adjustments.
The luminosity masks use the existing channel masks in Photoshop to create a mask based on the various tonal values in the image. You then use this mask with the existing layer adjustments in Photoshop such as curves or levels. This gives you more control over adjustments that you make because you can target specific tonalities within the image (ie: bright highlights, midtones, or shadow areas). The saturation masks also select specific values based on the amount of saturation in certain colors so that when you make a saturation adjustment it doesn't affect areas that are already saturated as much compared to a global saturation adjustment.
Honestly, I started working with Photoshop with no background at all - and I still have a lot to learn. It can be intimidating at first but now that I know more of what some of the functions do I am not as intimidated. If you are interested in learning more I would recommend some video tutorials by NPN photographer Sean Bagshaw. He offers three different tutorial sets beginning with the basics. I would start here as this will lay a foundation for the more detailed tutorials. I have purchased all three tutorials, and while it is a bit pricey if you buy all three, I find video tutorials to be the best way to learn because you can actually see what he is doing and what effect it is having on the image. It's one thing to know how to create a curves adjustment layer but another thing all together to know what to do with it once you have created it. He shows you how to do this. I feel like the tutorials are easy to follow and his teaching style is very good as well - he doesn't talk over your head. He discusses how to use Tony Kuyper's luminosity masks in the "Processing for Extended Dynamic Range" tutorial and he walks you through how to create the masks manually as well. But again I would recommend that you start with the "Photoshop Basics for Nature Photographers" tutorial. He has made some revisions to the tutorial since I purchased it. I noticed this on a blog post that he had made on the Photo Cascadia website where he was discussing a specific adjustment which he had added to his tutorials. When I asked about a particular step and mentioned that I had purchased the tutorials before they were revised he was nice enough to send a link so that I could download the updated tutorial. So I can say that my experience has been very positive.
EDIT: As a side note, since I don't know how familiar you are with Photoshop I don't know if anything that I said above makes sense.
Honestly, before I purchased Sean's tutorials if I would have read what I just typed most of it would have gone well over my head so I understand completely if it all sounds overwhelming. If you have more questions feel free to post them.
I very much appreciate the time you took to explain. I still have questions.
First, Nikon's Capture NX2 is more than a RAW converter; it is non-destructive.
I also have, but have not used much, Capture One Pro which seems to do a lot of what you say about PhotoShop.
I really don't understand the "mask" term so will have to look that up. It would seem that any time a portion of the photo is altered a mask is applied if the process is non-destructive.
Luminosity masks in Capture One are available for each RGB color or combined.
Selective areas in both these programs can be altered in various ways. I don't believe NX2 has any automated functions.
So, I would like to have PhotoShop but there are other lenses and photo accoutrements I would like, too.
Will snuggle up to some friend who has perhaps the programs you mentioned and see if I should yet again invest in another program.
Should have gone with PhotoShop in the first place but I was using "bird photo techniques"-- cheap, cheap.
Kindest regards,
Laryy
I really can't speak to your questions about Nikon's Capture NX2 or the Capture One Pro software since I don't have any experience with either tool. Maybe you would get some good information from the Digital Imaging forum.
Regarding your question about masks...I will start with an explanation of layers since it sounds like you don't have much Photoshop experience. I like to think of layers like picture books that I remember seeing when I was a kid. You had a picture on the main page and then you had clear transparent pages that had part of a the picture that was then layered on the base picture. They usually stacked a few of the transparent layers over one another to add elements to the picture. Layers in Photoshop are very similar in concept. You start with the base image, or background layer. On top of that you can create adjustment layers to control things such as contrast, saturation, color balance, etc. Using layers is non-destructive because the adjustments are made on the adjustment layers and not the background layer which has the original image. You can go add or delete new layers at anytime and in most cases you can edit adjustments that you make on a layer after the fact.
A mask further enhances the functionality of a layer. Generally speaking when you make an adjustment using an adjustment layer the effect of that adjustment is applied to the whole image, or globally. Masks enable you to target the adjustments to specific parts of the image. With a mask you generally start with a white mask (which is the default) which enables all of the adjustment to show through. This is like layering over a clear transparency over the page with the picture. You can then paint on the mask using a black brush at various levels of opacity to allow more or less of the adjustment to show through. A 100% black brush completely hides the adjustment, while a 100% white brush completely reveals the adjustment that you make. Using the opacity slider on a black brush you can show various degrees of the adjustment.
The challenges with masks is that it is difficult to get a smooth transition. For example if you have a bright sky with dark trees protruding into the sky it is virtually impossible to make a selection that enables you to create a clean mask. The advantage of Tony Kuyper's luminosity masks is that the actions create a mask using the channels palette which is basically a grey scale map of the tones in the image. This gives you a perfectly feathered mask of your image and gives you greater control over the tonality and contrast in your image without creating haloing or unwanted digital artifacts in the image. I think if you could see it in action it would make a lot more sense. It is hard to describe if you don't have a frame of reference.
Sounds like its time to save for PhotoShop and some of Tony's stuff.
Thanks again for your explanation.
And Darren, thanks for your observation, too.
the fisch
It might even be worth purchasing and viewing Sean's tutorial on Photoshop Basics to get a feel for the functionality of Photoshop and how it might benefit you as a nature photographer. It is a little expensive, but if it helps you make an informed decision about whether Photoshop is right for you it might be worth it.
If you know of anyone locally who uses Photoshop that would be a tremendous resource - maybe they could walk you through some of the basics so that you can decide if it really is for you.
Photoshop is a powerful tool but in addition to being expensive it is complex and not particularly intuitive unless you have some guidance about how to use it or a background with it. As I have said it is also a bit intimidating for first time users and the learning curve is a bit steep - especially on your own. Apart from video tutorials I don't think I would know how to do much beyond basic sharpening, etc.
I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another but before you make a significant investment in the software I would recommend that you do some research to find out for sure whether you think it is for you.
Additionally, although Tony's tools are powerful, you will not get any benefit from them until you have an understanding of how to use adjustment layers and layer masks which will require some guidance and practice. I would recommend that you wait to purchase Tony's actions until you have some proficiency with layers and masks since they are the foundation for using Tony's actions.