Entry level dslr

Ok, you folks know I'm still a film guy, large format to boot. My X wants to get a dslr for our 25-yr old son. He has had an interest in photography over the years (go figure, I used to take him to Yosemite, he's had a Nikon FE, 8008S and even bought himself a Holga at one point.) I don't see him as getting too serious, just wants to have fun, be creative, etc. Probably more street-type than nature.

I'm not buying it, but being asked advice. If it were me, I would get an entry-level package deal from a big retailer. Nikon or Canon, I don' much care. Yes, we could get a better, used deal at KEH, but I'm not giving a used camera as a gift.

Anyway, any thoughts/opinions on an entry level deal with a kit lens? Canon Rebel T series? Nikon 3100? Sony? Most certainly keeping below $1K.
And how about a reputable dealer with good prices?

Thanks!

Hi Lon - I recommended a Canon Rebel t4i and t3i to a colleague at work who went to the Himalayas this past spring. He was just getting into photography and only used a point and shoot prior. He bought the t4i and just loves it and is getting pretty serious about photography in geneeral. He also took some great pictures on his trip. Check out dpreviews where you can check out a variety of cameras side by side.

Lon, I think it'll be an easy choice, either go for the Nikon D5100 or the Canon T3i.

Both come with an image stabilized 18-55mm lens and both cost about $649-$699. Canon makes a T4i but the improvements aren't worth the extra $200.

The decision between Nikon and Canon is easy at the entry level, you only need to answer two questions: what do his friends shoot (so they can lend each other lenses) and which body feels better when holding it. Maybe get him into Costco or Walmart and have him hold one to see what feels better. Other than that, the worst of the two (whichever it is, who knows) is still better than what we bought 6 or 7 years ago for 10x the price. I would say stick with one of those two brands because it's what most people shoot and online support and accessories are plentiful, and lens sharing is easy.

I saw Eva's post after sending mine about the T4i so I checked to make sure I didn't give you the wrong info when I said it wasnlt worth the extra money. The added features are nice, but you can decide if T4i is better than T3i... T4i has a DIGIC 5 processor, not DIGIC 4 as in the T3i, so the 4 gets 5FPS where the 3 gets 3.7FPS (I have the older DIGIC 4 in my sD Mark II and it's fine for me). The T4i also has a redsigned shutter which adds to the increased FPS. T4i also has a touch screen, the better AF that is the same as the 60D, radio-controlled flash if he ever dumps $600 on the new Canon Flash, and has some built-in thingies like CA correction for native Canon lenses. It also sports a stereo mic for video vs a mono in the T3i, but that's a moot point because on-camera mics for DSLR video and pretty bad, usually picking up more AF noise than anything. And the T4i hits 12,800 ISO where the T3i hits 6400. Also a moot point, ISO that high generally looks pretty bad-to-unusable.

So, for $200 more there are a lot of additions, but for the best savings the T3i is no slouch, neither is the D5100. And B&H is probably your best online dealer, usually free shipping and no tax and they have the most recent stock because of how much they sell. And they pack really well, much better than Amazon.

Thanks Paul and Eva for the responses.

Not too concerned about processors, FPS, etc. This is for a guy who just likes to take some photo apps on his Android and make weird colors..... ya know... ;-) But he does have a bit of the photo bug thanks to his old man. He even won some awards at the county fair as a young teenager....

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts so far. What about the T2i? I'm assuming the older model?

Good point about the handling. Personally, I originally had a Canon EOS 620 and really liked the ergonomics, how it felt. I think that's a good feature with the Canons as they have brought that forward through the years.

If we went Nikon, my big question is: would my old (non-D) Nikon lenses work on the current dslrs? I know the Nikon mount means any lens can mount on any camera, but what about functionality? I have a few lenses he could have/use, but my only be good in manual mode? that might be a major factor in choosing the Nikon.

Oh, also I see the 5100 has the DX sensor, which I'm guessing is a good thing, compared to the aps sensor of the 3100?

thanks again!

Lon

If you've already got a few Nikon lenses, why not just find a used D200 or D300? There are a lot of them out there. Your old lenses will work just fine even with the older autofucus.

I have a T2i with the 18-55mm kit lens that I carry sometimes as a backpacking camera due to it's compact size and weight and have used it for birds in flight with the Canon 400mm 5.6. My primary camera is a 5D. The Rebel does very well at low ISOs. I have a 16X24 print over my mantle taken with it and it's getting to be a stretch at that size, but totally acceptable. At ISOs of 400 the noise doesn't meet my standards, but would probably do fine for smaller prints and web presentations. I think the kit lens has good optics, but does not give the feel of especially sturdy construction,

It's such a sweet little camera I'm considering an upgrade to the T3i or 4 to see if I would get any ISO improvement. It is pretty user friendly and easy to handle. I've never even tried the video, so no help there.

I shoot Nikon now and the older lens work manually and meter on my D7000 with no problems. Have had lots of issues with my D5100 though as it does not recognize any of my lens by other companies other than Nikon. Even my 50 mm Nikon will not work on the 5100 they are all basically manual lens on that body. I don't have any complaints for the D7000 though. I know I lent a friend some newer Tamron and Tokina lens on her Nikon D3100 and they did not work there as well and had to use them manually.

Hope that helps.

Understanding what people want to do with the camera is obviously important, but absent knowing that :

I'd steer people (and have steered people) to mirrorless cameras. The main reason being a LOT of folks who want something like a DSLR don't actually want to deal with something that big. (I know things like Canon T4i's seem small if you're used to other DSLRs; But coming from point and shoots, they don't.) And the current mirrorless cameras don't give away much if anything to the entry level DSLRs. (And because of that, in some cases are actually more expensive!)

The m4/3s like in particular is great for small size, because of the lenses. The Sony NEX line is also very well regarded but the lenses are somewhat larger.

Features-wise, they don't give away much if anything to full DSLRs. Performance-wise, they give away a little, but for many folks, not something important.

I agree with David. The Sony NEX 5N is pretty reasonable right now and has better image quality and is more fun to use than the other cameras mentioned. It has some creative modes and touch screen focus which he would like. Not sure what these cameras give away performance wise, if anything. In most respects, they are better. They have capabilities that have to be experienced to be believed.

thanks very much for the comments and suggestions. I'm getting quite an education? To show you how out of touch and behind the times I am, other than a pt-n-shoot, I had no idea about these "mirrorless" cameras with interchangeable lenses. Who knew?

It's gonna take me some additional research to consider those. For starters, I have no idea what the sensor size is and how a 10-30mm lens translates to my 35mm mindset and reference. Nikon has the "1 Nikon" lens - does that mean they only have 1 interchangeble lens? I can't imagine that's the case. Looks like an intriguing system and yes, would probably be an interest for a 24yr old. Of course the prices for a middle of the line, decent one are in the same ballpark as the D5100 or T3i. I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion about the Lumix line?

Took a quick peak at KEH and a D300 is much more than I could get an entire D5100 or T3i kit, new. Yeah, lots of previous model dslrs available used, but can't see getting a 10MP body where the noise is so bad it cancels out any night photography - and I'm thinking that might be in the cards (at least city stuff at night - and where the latest sensors would clearly out perform a used model that's 5 yrs old.) But, honestly, I don't even know about any of the older models - couldn't even tell you who makes a 60D or D60 - who thought of these numbers anyway?

I'm leaning towards a kit of perhaps the D5100 or T3i. The Nikon D3100 is cheaper, but it's not the DX sensor and fewer MP's. Anyway, I'll pass along what I know so far. I'm kinda thinking even these entry level systems may be out of range.

Thanks Again!

Lon

One thing I haven't seen mentioned Lon is the Nikon D90. Sure, it's only 12.3MP and is quickly being "outpaced" by new offerings, BUT one of the big reasons I got it (at $799) is that it DOES autofocus most of the older Nikon lenses. And was regarded as the best <$1000 by many. I won't be looking for a new camera anytime soon.

I get to use my dad's Nikon stuff (a shooter of over 40 years)t, except for the Sigma 150-500mm which will be arriving tomorrow.

Don't worry about sensor size if you buy one of the new bodies. The aps-c (Nikon calls it dx) is super unless you're shooting for billboard size exhibitions at the Smithsonian and even then will be OK if you make a good capture.

Buy the T4i and get it from Hunts Photo Video. They will match anybody else's price even if they advertise a bit highter and they are HUGE supporters of nature photographers and nature photography. We need to reward those who support not only our craft but the natural world.

The electronic screens in mirrorless viewfinders (i.e. just another LCD) are most annoying - not as accurate or easy on the eyes as seeing actual optical vision IMHO.
JR
JR

Lon - Here's the DPReview MILC (mirrorless Interchangeable lens camera) article. It was released last December, so it's getting a little out of date, but is pretty short and a good intro. Some googling will turn up lots more guides and intros.

And here's the complete list of mirrorless cameras available. 48 models from 10 manufacturers.

As far as the Nikon 1 system, I think there are 4 lenses for it right now - it is a very new system.

And in order to translate the various sensor sizes to 35mm-speak, this sensor size comparison may help. The Canon, Samsung, and Sony use regular APS-C (with Canon's slightly smaller, just like the DSLRs) and the Olympus and Panasonic use regular 4/3rds sized sensors. Pentax has a camera that is APS-C, and another that uses a point-and-shoot sensor and tiny, tiny lenses. Nikon uses a sensor in between point-and-shoots and 4/3rds.

Thanks for the links David. Very helpful actually for getting both a broad look at the various technologies, manufacturers and camera types as well as access to individual reviews, etc.

Thanks Bill. I think the D90 and other cameras used or otherwise are beyond the budget.

John, thanks for the input. I've used Hunt's before, good idea. Also about the "viewfinder." I'm sure as a nature photographer like us, it could be an issue. for someone who's coming from cell phones, smart phones and pt.-n-sht's, probably wouldn't notice a change.... ;-) The touchscreen features sound like a plus and "modern."

I'll let you know what gets decided. thanks again for the discussion!

Lon

Hey Lon, I cast my vote for the Nikon D5100. I started with the D5000 and it's a solid little unit with a lot of nice features. A friend recently bought a D5100 and it's a winner with a nice 18 mgp sensor, I believe. On the other side another friend grabbed a Canon T3i kit and IMO the build quality it not even close to the Nikon. The Canon is lighter and seems flimsier, more plastic loose fitting parts etc. As for IQ probably not much difference.

Lon, the ONLY two reasons I even mentioned the D90 are this:

If we went Nikon, my big question is: would my old (non-D) Nikon lenses work on the current dslrs? I know the Nikon mount means any lens can mount on any camera, but what about functionality? I have a few lenses he could have/use, but my only be good in manual mode? that might be a major factor in choosing the Nikon.

And your desire to be under $1,000 brand new.

The D5100 does not do the autofocus, the D90 is the only one under $1,000 that does, and I know firsthand. Just sayin', have fun, it's not easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lon: I am told that the Sony NEX uses the same (sony) sensor that the Nikon D70000 uses, with an even better processor. I am also told that you can buy third party adaptors tha will allow you to use Nikon lenses. I am intigued by it.

I am also told that you can buy third party adaptors tha will allow you to use Nikon lenses.

Andy... due to the nature of mirrorless cameras, you can usually find an adapter to adapt just about any lens mount to them. So yes, you can put Nikon lenses (or Canon, or Leica, or Cosina, etc.) on a Sony NEX (or a Samsung NX, or an Olympus EP, etc.)

However, I don't bellieve that any of those combinations will autofocus, and some won't do auto-aperture or metering. Which is fine for many types of shooting. Of course, you have to remember that adapting large lenses defeats part of the purpose that a lot of these exist (small size).

Here's a nice little article on adapting lenses to the various mirrorless models.