Full Frame vs Crop

Hello All :)

I have been involved with photography for about 2 years now. I have sold a few prints and am looking to upgrade to a camera, with better image quality and something that will allow me to print bigger.

I had been using a Panasonic DMC-TZ3 and although I pushed the lens to it's full extent, it suffers in image quality. You can take a look at my gallery, to see what I mean.

I am on the fence as to whether to jump in with both feet and invest in full frame or start out with a crop sensor.

I have been looking at the following:

Canon 5d Mkii with the Canon EF 100mm L lens

Pentax K5 with an equivalent lens.

Any suggestions??

Thanks.

Why not look at a Canon (or Nikon) crop sensor ? You will be buying into an entire system. Take a look around and see why the market is dominated by two brands, Canon and Nikon. It's not that others don't make fine equipment, but you will find yourself with many more options for rental, sharing, etc when you stick with one of the two dominant systems. I'm not trying to start a brand war or impune any other brand.

Hi Kieth,

What about the full frame Canon sensor? the 5d mkii. I was looking at the Nikon7000 and it prices at around $1100. Henry's, here in Canada, has the 5d mkii, on sale for $1900. I guess I am trying to figure out if it is worth going to full frame, right away, rather than crop.

Are there huge advantages, with the full frame? I know it is better low light, but what else?

Thanks.

What are your intended uses of the camera? That will help determine what is right for your needs. Shooting full frame does provide better low light performance in terms of noise, does not introduce the field of view "crop" that crop sensors do, but in the end you need to know what your primary interests are to decide which camera is the "right" camera for you.

Hi Keith :) Thank you for the response. I really enjoy macro work, especially floral. But I also want something that is flexible enough to use for landscape and other nature shots.

Stephen, I understand where you're coming from. Every penny you spend on your equipment comes currently from your own pocket, like me. Last summer when I felt I needed a new primary body (from a D90) I went through the cropped/full sensor dilema. Had a hard time deciding between the (Nikon) D300s and the full sensor D700. Utimately I decided on staying with a croppped sensor body (for now). No regrets, the D300s is fast and responsive, my need now is better glass but that is another issue. I agree with Keith's assesment if you're serious about the photography thing you just need to decide on a mainstream DSLR brand (Canon or Nikon) and build your tools from there.

Just a plug for the Nikon 800. It is full frame but can be set up to give you 3 differnt crop modes. Plus the advantage of ful fram lens

Stephen, Given your interest in macro and landscapes I would encourage you to move toward the 5DMkii ...it is a truly wonderful camera and with the new Mkiii on the market the 2nd hand prices should have fallen significantly and you will get a great camera for the price. Of course most of us suffer with this conundrum and the only solution is to purchase one of each and have both a 5D and a 7D.
Just so you know my biases - I have a 5D mkii and just bought a new mkiii and Im going to convert my old 5D into an Infrared camera
Good luck Peter

Mirrorless is superior to any DSLR for manual focus. Peaking works great. Right now the NEX 7 is marked down $350.00. You need manual focus for macro. You can focus an nex without having to stand on your head. As for image quality, there are claims that the nex 7 is comparable to the DX3 and probably better than the Canon you are looking at. There are a number of advantages to going mirrorless. A big one being that for the price of a $20.00 adapter, you can use the best Nikon or Canon lenses. To get noticeably better than this camera, D800.

I am always amused by the "full frame" discussion. In the end, the it is really about image quality. I am fond of saying there is no such thing as a "full frame." When DSLR cameras first came on the scene, sensors were smaller due primarily to economics. The available lenses were desiigned for 35mm image "sensor size." But in subsequent years, manufacturers have designed lenses for the so-called APS sensors, so largely, its no longer relevant. Every time a new camera is introduced, the sensors get better and better. For example, the quality of the new Nikon D7000 is impressive. I soot a so-called full frame D700. I bought it, not because it was full frame, but because of its image quality. Since then, the newer smaller sensors have gotten better.

I totally agree with the poster who said to get into a "system" like Nikon or Canon offers and stick with it. One impotrant isse is cost. The "crop factor" APS. sensors are generally less expensive.

As for image quality, there are claims that the nex 7 is comparable to the DX3

Robert - I assume you meant the D3X. Given that, the Sony sensor is impressive, but even given advances, it's very difficult to overcome the limitations of a smaller than "full frame" sensor, when talking about measureable qualities of the lens. The D3X has slightly better dynamic range and color depth, and it's impressive that the NEX7 gets close there.

But for low light, the D3X is still far ahead of the NEX - there's just no substituting for a larger sensor area. Here's the DxOMark comparison, which shows about a full stop advantage in noise for the D3X. Again, that's impressive for a smaller sensored camera!

That said, I've heard good things about the NEX7, but haven't seen too many detailed reports or know anyone that has one yet. The non-measureable aspects of that system are supposed to be very good by all accounts. Great to use, and great image quality.

Subdued light produces grungy macro images in my experience anyway.

Just about everyone of my photos, has been shot with natural lighting (outdoors). I think I can count on one hand, the number of times I used a flash :)

I find that the built in flash, on my camera, is far too bright and produces very "fake" looking colours and is too much, when withing a couple inches of a subject.

Coming from a small camera any APS sensor DSLR will be a night and day difference. The crop factor adds a nice boost for wildlife. The cameras are smaller and cheaper too. Full frame really comes into its own for the landscape crowd. There are many good models and brands too, however Canon and Nikon are the big players and your best bet for all the reasons others have said. To put that advantage into numbers our local camera club has over 200 members and 99% of us use Nikon or Canon. I think it breaks down about 120 Canon, 100 Nikon, 2 Sony. No one uses Olympus, Pentax, Samsung Or Panasonic. So while they make good stuff, you are much mire alone in those camps.

A D7000 is an awesome camera. 60D is no slouch. A77 looks cool too. Getting a full frame would be incrementally better but at a bigger price.

Look at it as there are no wrong choices.

Good luck.

If possible, consider the new Nikon D800. Not only is it an amazing 36 MP, it allows you to choose whatever format you wish to shoot:
FX, DX, 5:4 or 1.2x 1,2.
Now that it has been out awhile, there are some good used ones on EBay for around $2500.
Sandy

Hi Sandy :) One of the guys at work, was just telling me about the 800D! His wife works at Pentax Canada and he used to run a division there, so he is kinda biased. (trying to convince me of the K-5, which is a nicely built camera)

I will take a look at some 800D specs.

thanks.

thank you all, for the input. :)

based on budget, i have abandoned full frame and am down to 3 cameras.

Nikon D7000
Canon 60D
Pentax K5

DP Review puts the Pentax K5, ahead of the other two. Image comparisons for JPEG and RAW, put the K5 ahead for detail and colour reproduction.

My wife and my father have legacy Pentax lenses (nice ones).

Anyone have any hints on Pentax AF lenses? I have heard the Sigma makes lenses for Pentax too.

I am leaning towards the K5. Anyone able to tell me why I would consider Nikon or Canon?

Thanks :)

The Pentax K5 sounds like a nice camera. But looking at the B&H and Adorama ads in Pop Photo reveals that Pentax doesn't have an adequate lens for serious bird photography (they have a 300/4 AF lens but that isn't much for birding). So if your plans call for anything more than birds at the backyard feeder of the hand fed ducks at the local park you'll need to look to Sigma for a longer optic. or make do with an old manual focus long lens in Pentax mount.

Nikon and Canon have complete systems of lenses going up to 600/4 with matched converters for even more reach. You'll also find better selection in used lenses from Canon and Nikon.

If you stick to macro and typical scenic subjects you should be able to find suitable lenses from Pentax for your needs (including the legacy lenses you mention). Just note that the cropped format sensor in the K5 effectively increases the focal length of full frame legacy lenses and an old 28mm or 35mm won't give you a wide view.

Thanks for the tips Richard,

Something else the K5, has that the top two do not, is in the camera image stabilization. From everything I am reading, it works very well, even with the longer lenses. (that do not have their own IS)

I am not sure, if I see myself doing much in the way of bird photography. It has not been a real draw for me. So far, I have stuck to floral and macro, with the odd landscape or cityscape thrown in. I would like to take on a little more street photography as well.

Hi Stephen,

The advice to view your choice in the context of a whole system is excellent. I would not think in terms of tools but rather in terms of what shooting requirements you have and what solutions would fulfill them. For example, if shooting macros and landscapes are key, then I would think about how you get to those environments and whether camera size and weight criteria matter or not. When I hike a few miles to a good shooting location, having a lighter set of tools can make the trip less burdensome, or it can allow me to take something additional.

Regarding camera brands and systems, as one who has been using both Pentax and Canon DSLR systems extensively over the past several years, I can speak from experience.

They are both excellent tools, but each has certain strengths and weaknesses. In my superficial understanding of your situation I would easily recommend a Pentax system. Pentax products are significantly lighter and smaller and the ergonomics of use considerably superior. To me a Pentax feels like it was designed by a photographer who has to use the thing, whereas a Canon feels like it was designed by an engineer who was more interested in the specs.

An quick example involves wireless cable release. My Canon 7D only allow the shutter to be tripped if the release is pointed at the front of the camera; the Pentax has receivers in front and back. A little thing, but one that matters. When I'm shooting macro with the camera on a tripod, LiveView on for focus, aiming the release at the back of the camera is, well, easy. My Canon forces me to do yoga to reach around to the firing zone. I now have to shlep a separate wired release for the Canon which is just one more thing to deal with. It is also much more effective when shooting group portraits when you can engage people eye to eye from behind the camera and then magically press the wireless shutter when the right moment hits.

You can also control more functions from the Pentax during operations (while looking through the viewfinder) than with the Canon which requires you to deal with menus and that horrible thumbwheel interface.

Both Canon and Pentax optics are excellent. I've not noticed any quality difference. Generally, Pentax excels in small-sized primes; Canon in zooms. Canon prime lenses are excellent, but they are very heavy. The Pentax system is designed around the APS-C form factor and are extensive; Canon has some EF-S lenses, but the whole lens system seems tilted towards the "full-frame" selections.

Canon also is superior for long telephotos for sports and birds (which is why I added Canon systems), as well as tilt-shift lenses for architectural rendering. But if you don't need those, then move on. Pentax also announced a 560mm lens which I expect will be unveiled next week at Photokina.

The earlier point about obtaining lens rentals at retail locations is accurate; but it you are not in need of specialty lenses immediately (and few non-full-time working shooters do), then you can rent Pentax-mount lenses via the Internet rather easily.

AF systems offered by Canon and Nikon have better predictive capabilities which matters for sports and birds too. Pentax AF is just fine for static stuff and street shooting. The built-in IS for Pentax is sweet for older lenses; both systems IS work fine. I use a few M42 lenses for artsy stuff with both cameras as well as a few older Pentax lenses. It's all good. Nikon has issues with M42 lenses.

I don't have a K-5 but from the shots I've seen and what I've read it, is about the best APS-C camera out there for image rendering, especially at high ISO (better than my 7D). They are amazingly cheap now as the new models will be announced next week at Photokina. Allegedly a version of the K-5 without an anti-aliasing filter (like the Nikon D800e) will be among the new releases. The new models could also have the newer 24 MP Sony sensors which may make generating larger prints a little easier. How large is large for you?

Tamron, Sigma, and Samyang make K-mount lenses of excellent to average quality which applies to other brands too. You'll generally have more choices with an EOS-mount.

Hope this helps,

ME

Michael gives some great reasons for the Pentax. It sounds like it will be a good camera. D7000 would be a good choice too. Of the three the 60d is probably the laggard of the group. Any will be a good choice. You might watch announcements for the next week just to see if anything tempts you, then make a purchase.

Good luck and good photography!!

Thank you all. Rumour has it - good things about the next Pentax K5 release. (K5ii) better AF :) (good source)
I will wait a few weeks and see what comes out :)

New baby coming in December :)

stroller and crib.... or ..... new camera? :(

As a sony user, I take offence to this Nikon/Canon dominated world....lol....sony has some really nice perks.... in body stabilization....full use of old minolta glass.....12 frames per second...i could go on....but you just go ahead and pick a lesser model....