Posted by David Bostedo on January 4, 2013 at 12:04 AM
Hi everyone - Preston and I had a little email discussion spurred by a purely commercial post he noticed and I removed. The question discussed is this :
Are there better ways to keep the commercial aspects separate (including things like overly extensive signatures) while still maintaining some useful commercial features for NPN that folks would like?
I have to admit, when I started looking at the "Shop" menu to let this particular user know of a more appropriate place for their post, I had no idea how many posting options were in there and how many posts had been made. I wonder how many other folks, say, go looking for plug-ins and don't even check there? I wouldn't have.
Perhaps the "Shop" menu and links should be made much more prevalent, and all the commercial stuff - tours and guides included - should go there. I'm not really sure why the tours and workshop listings are kept in the regular forums anyway. Seems like it would be better to have a more integrated "Shop" list that includes them.
As for signatures, it shouldn't be too hard to simply limit them to a single link each or something like that. Is there a limit now that should be enforced? Has anyone actually enforced it?
Thanks for posting this, David. As you know, I believe that NPN galleries and forums should be "advertisement free zones". I am seeing image posts whose primary purpose appears to be advertising, and signatures that are heavily geared toward marketing. While I do not have issues with a photographer actively marketing their work or products, there are places within NPN that are designed for this purpose.
Here are the guidelines from the NPN Posting Guidelines page:
Commercial Advertisement
In our efforts to keep the NPN website free of excess commercialism, please use the following guidelines;
1.You may include one text link in your forum signature to a page on your website that offers your products and/or services. The forum signature fields are not intended to serve as a comprehensive listing of all of your products/services!
2. You may use the "Purchase Print" feature when uploading a photo without reservation and assign these photos to your Personal Gallery if you wish.
3. You may list your workshops, photo tours and photographic exhibitions in the Workshops/Tours/Exhibitions forum. Photos may be posted in those listings to illustrate the product/service. All listings persist for 45 days, one listing per week maximum.
4. You may list your photography products and services in the Commercial Galleries (more information on these galleries below).
5. All other unauthorized commercial advertisement is subject to deletion!
Given these guidelines, the question becomes: How do we enforce them?
I think the first thing that is required is education. Members may not be aware of the specifics as outlined above, so I think one way to increase awareness would be through the NPN Newsletter that is e-mailed to members.
Once we make members aware of the Commercial Advertisement guidelines, it would be up to them to abide by the guidelines. If they do not, then we would need to take stronger action. The question now is, who is "we"? Would it be up to a moderator to request the offender to remove unacceptable verbiage, or would our job be to inform Jim and then leave the action up to him? I don't know.
Perhaps the "Shop" menu and links should be made much more prevalent, and all the commercial stuff - tours and guides included - should go there. I'm not really sure why the tours and workshop listings are kept in the regular forums anyway. Seems like it would be better to have a more integrated "Shop" list that includes them.
I think this is a very good idea.
As a long-time NPN member and moderator, I believe NPN should remain as it was intended from its inception: A showcase for outstanding nature photography, and a top-flight educational resource for nature photographers. There are avenues within NPN for advertising by members, but the galleries, forums, and image posts are not the place for such in my opinion.
Let's discuss this and see what direction(s) we need to take.
Kind Regards,
--P
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 5, 2013 at 2:42 PM
Hey guys, a good and valid topic. I know we've chatted about this via email before and I'm glad it's been brought to the table.
I do think something should be done, but personally I don't think it should put to someone, say moderators, to make subjective judgement on what's commercial, advertising or what is just a blog post about their adventures. Consider too that many of our moderators mention workshops and other services in their signature area.
What I think could more easily be done is modify the preferences page to allow only one line for a website or blog. Another idea would be to add another icon at the bottom along with the "www," "portfolio," email," etc. etc. You could have an icon called "Services" that perhaps links to a members profile page, which would have to be created too. Or use "Shop" as suggested above.
Not to defend the practice too much, but the above guidelines regarding "commercial" I think were intended to, and this is just an example: prevent say B&H from creating an account, and basically using their membership to advertise the products they sell. Or for NANPA to advertise insurance coverage, etc.
Yes, members are certainly advertising, but they are not re-selling services.
Anyway, not sure what the ultimate solution is, but I think it should be hard coded for the signature area. Of course that doesn't prevent anyone from inserting links in the text area of any post.
In the end, I've never clicked on anyone's link in their signature except to go to their website to look at their work.
Just some thoughts.... anyone else?
Lon
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 6, 2013 at 8:11 AM
We do state that only one "commerical" link is allowed in the signature section. If you are willing to send me the name of the member who has a menu instead, I will handle it from here. This will also encourage use of the commerical forums that are designed just for this kind of promotional activity.
BTW, I am open to ideas on how to better promote those commercial forums! Maybe I'll make that the Tip of the Month for February.....
I think that before the mods begin to report overuse of commercial links in the posts or signatures, an attempt should be made to reiterate the guidelines and propose alternatives, thus allowing the members to police themselves. A 'featured' post by Jim, placed in the forums, including the regional group forums, may be a way to go about this. Also, my earlier suggestion to add a note about this issue in the e-mailed NPN Newsletter would also reach a large number of members.
I like the idea of promotion of the commercial forums in the Tip of the Month. Also, promotion of the commercial forums in the newsletter would be good, as well.
As we know, there will be reluctance on the part of some members to abide by the commercial advertisement guidelines even after a gentle reminder of the policies. At that point, a note to Jim would be in order, I think.
Discussion
4 repliesAre there better ways to keep the commercial aspects separate (including things like overly extensive signatures) while still maintaining some useful commercial features for NPN that folks would like?
I have to admit, when I started looking at the "Shop" menu to let this particular user know of a more appropriate place for their post, I had no idea how many posting options were in there and how many posts had been made. I wonder how many other folks, say, go looking for plug-ins and don't even check there? I wouldn't have.
Perhaps the "Shop" menu and links should be made much more prevalent, and all the commercial stuff - tours and guides included - should go there. I'm not really sure why the tours and workshop listings are kept in the regular forums anyway. Seems like it would be better to have a more integrated "Shop" list that includes them.
As for signatures, it shouldn't be too hard to simply limit them to a single link each or something like that. Is there a limit now that should be enforced? Has anyone actually enforced it?
Other thoughts?
Here are the guidelines from the NPN Posting Guidelines page:
Commercial Advertisement
In our efforts to keep the NPN website free of excess commercialism, please use the following guidelines;
1.You may include one text link in your forum signature to a page on your website that offers your products and/or services. The forum signature fields are not intended to serve as a comprehensive listing of all of your products/services!
2. You may use the "Purchase Print" feature when uploading a photo without reservation and assign these photos to your Personal Gallery if you wish.
3. You may list your workshops, photo tours and photographic exhibitions in the Workshops/Tours/Exhibitions forum. Photos may be posted in those listings to illustrate the product/service. All listings persist for 45 days, one listing per week maximum.
4. You may list your photography products and services in the Commercial Galleries (more information on these galleries below).
5. All other unauthorized commercial advertisement is subject to deletion!
Given these guidelines, the question becomes: How do we enforce them?
I think the first thing that is required is education. Members may not be aware of the specifics as outlined above, so I think one way to increase awareness would be through the NPN Newsletter that is e-mailed to members.
Once we make members aware of the Commercial Advertisement guidelines, it would be up to them to abide by the guidelines. If they do not, then we would need to take stronger action. The question now is, who is "we"? Would it be up to a moderator to request the offender to remove unacceptable verbiage, or would our job be to inform Jim and then leave the action up to him? I don't know.
I think this is a very good idea.
As a long-time NPN member and moderator, I believe NPN should remain as it was intended from its inception: A showcase for outstanding nature photography, and a top-flight educational resource for nature photographers. There are avenues within NPN for advertising by members, but the galleries, forums, and image posts are not the place for such in my opinion.
Let's discuss this and see what direction(s) we need to take.
Kind Regards,
--P
I do think something should be done, but personally I don't think it should put to someone, say moderators, to make subjective judgement on what's commercial, advertising or what is just a blog post about their adventures. Consider too that many of our moderators mention workshops and other services in their signature area.
What I think could more easily be done is modify the preferences page to allow only one line for a website or blog. Another idea would be to add another icon at the bottom along with the "www," "portfolio," email," etc. etc. You could have an icon called "Services" that perhaps links to a members profile page, which would have to be created too. Or use "Shop" as suggested above.
Not to defend the practice too much, but the above guidelines regarding "commercial" I think were intended to, and this is just an example: prevent say B&H from creating an account, and basically using their membership to advertise the products they sell. Or for NANPA to advertise insurance coverage, etc.
Yes, members are certainly advertising, but they are not re-selling services.
Anyway, not sure what the ultimate solution is, but I think it should be hard coded for the signature area. Of course that doesn't prevent anyone from inserting links in the text area of any post.
In the end, I've never clicked on anyone's link in their signature except to go to their website to look at their work.
Just some thoughts.... anyone else?
Lon
BTW, I am open to ideas on how to better promote those commercial forums! Maybe I'll make that the Tip of the Month for February.....
I like the idea of promotion of the commercial forums in the Tip of the Month. Also, promotion of the commercial forums in the newsletter would be good, as well.
As we know, there will be reluctance on the part of some members to abide by the commercial advertisement guidelines even after a gentle reminder of the policies. At that point, a note to Jim would be in order, I think.
--P