I may be about to disprove the idea that the only dumb question is one you don't ask but......what is the proper etiquette for photographing at sites where several other photographers are present? I am blessed with isolation so haven't had to think about this. Now I am planning to spend time in the SW and I am sure I will run into this situation. Please let me know the polite way to deal with this situation and still get the photos I want.
Say HI!
Come in quietly. Walk behind others, not in front. Don't set up too close. If things are very crowded, and you are trying to squeeze into a small space, ask permission.
Do'nt talk unless invited to (For me, shooting is my solace and I like peace and quiet)
Ask permission to go onto private property
Don't take stuff - sand, that cool branch, that hawk feather (illegal to have ANY poart of a raptor - feathers, bones, etc)
Don't step on plants and vegetation.
Don't use calls, lures, or bait. This may be controlled by the State anyway.
Be unobtrusive and quiet. If you're close enough that the wildlife alters it's behavior in ANY way - you're TOO close and causing stress.
Walk slowly so you don't scare the birds or animals.
That's my 2 cents - I'm sure others will add more.
Have fun!
Sandy
Posted by Scott Fricke on January 6, 2013 at 2:20 PM
I photograph almost entirely in the SW and do my best to avoid people, but sometimes they find you . My experience is that it is basically first come, first serve. If someone is there before you, they have the right of way. If I see someone in the area where I want to shoot, I either move on and come back later or approach the photographer and ask if I can set up and where can I set up out of their way. 99% of people will be very accommodating. In general most people are very friendly and willing to share the location, I think the key is to ask permission rather than just plop down 3 feet away from another photographer.
Some places like the 'Wave' are very small and there are 10 people trying to photograph at the same time. That area only allows 20 people a day in by permit, so it is difficult to get into and people realize that and generally will work together moving out of each others shots and not dominate the location. It may also be an opportunity to scout out another location. In November I went to the Wave with a friend and there were probably 8 photographers at the iconic location. We took a few photos working around other people, but then decided to find some solitude. We ended up hiking around a good portion of the wilderness permit area, found some great locations and didn't see another person the ret of the day. I probably had one of my most productive days I've ever spent in that area.
Same in slot canyons like Antelope Canyon, there are a ton of people but if you politely ask people to step around a corner for a minute they are generally accommodating as they need the same from others.
A key point is if you are with a bunch of people work as quickly as possible then let others do the same.
There are the 1% and you just have to stand your ground with those. Once at the Maroon Belles, one of the most photographed spots in Colorado, mostly at sunrise, I got there an hour before sunrise, was the first one there, found a good spot and set up my camera and tripod. Over the 45 minutes literally 75 other photographers showed up and did the same. About 15 minutes before sunrise this guy shows up and sets up about 50 feet away. After he sets up he yells at me that I am in his shot and I need to move. I ignore him but he continues to yell for about 5 more minutes. He finally comes over and notifies me he is a professional photographer and he does this for his living and I need to accommodate him. I simply responded that if he was truly a professional, and needed this shot to feed his family he should have arrived an hour earlier, as I and almost everyone else had. He received a number of disparaging remarks as he walked back to his camera from other photographers. In the end, he was the only problem in a group that reached almost 100 photographers, many of which were sandwiched together with overlapping tripod legs and couldn't leave without 3 other people moving their tripods.
Communication is the most important thing, talk to the other photographers, you'll get better cooperation and an opportunity to meet a new friend and perhaps get some local insight into some lesser known locations. I've found people in the West to be some of the most friendly people around so don't be afraid to strike up a conversation.
Posted by Scott Fricke on January 6, 2013 at 2:26 PM
I just read Sandy's response, which is coming more from a wildlife photographers point of view, I'll clarify I mostly do landscape photography and was talking from that viewpoint. I'd agree with Sandy's advice from that viewpoint. I tend to like the solitude myself, but don't have the same expectation in a more crowded location and will interact with other photographers more. If I'm out in the middle of the desert I will go out of my way to not get in others way and give them their privacy.
Thanks to both of you. I was actually more concerned with the human issue as living around wildlife is pretty much second nature to me and I do all I can to foster a mutual respect with them. I don't see many people, though and was unsure how to interact with them. Excellent suggestions on both fronts. Much appreciated
Posted by Nancy de Flon on January 7, 2013 at 7:51 AM
I'm in the Northeast and have had the situation of well-meaning people striking up a conversation just when it's crucial to make the best of what could be a very fleeting "good light" situation. I excuse myself in a friendly way and explain why I can't talk just then. (Clearly I'm referring to nonphotographers!)
Local traditions play large in photo etiquette. The most egregious "sins" I've seen occur when folks bring their home traditions from populous areas to new locations where patterns for low density use are established. Things you do at home just might be the worst kind of insult somewhere else.
Best approach is to watch what the locals are doing and fit in, rather than trying to re-educate strangers to your reality.
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 7, 2013 at 1:46 PM
Nancy Lea,
The easiest thing to remember are things we learned growing up and have nothing to do with photography. Treat others as you would want to be treated, comes to mind right away. Offering your seat to someone on a bus. Don't talk or use a cell phone in a Movie theater. Don't cut in line, and perhaps let someone go in front of you that only has a couple items. You get the idea.
I think the problem you'll have won't be proper etiquette, but the etiquette of others you may come across - and that's true in all of life.
I think the problem you'll have won't be proper etiquette, but the etiquette of others you may come across - and that's true in all of life.
.......
I had to make a point here from an incident I encountered many years ago at the Snake River Overlook in Teton N.P.. Not to make it too lengthy there were several of us involved. 4 or 5 of us had climbed over the wall and were setup in plenty of time for sunrise. However, at the last minute here he comes tripping across the parking lot with $10k worth of gear evenly hanging from every anchor point of his body. Instead of setting up in a safe spot at the back of the wall, no, he was determined although extremely late and the rest of us already grinding shots off to jump over the wall to obtain the perfect location. As leaped over the wall he slipped and fell down taking out two other photogs to their knees with their gear sliding down the hill tripods and all. Thankfully not me.
So, a point made on the statement Lon has posted above.
Posted by Dan Roberts on January 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM
Last fall was one of the first times that I specifically visited some of the iconic locations in Tetons/Yellowstone. Showed up well early for sunrise photos at a couple spots only to have hoards of people show up over the following hour or so. Most just before the optimum time to shoot. Most dissappointing was that at one site a couple of pros leading workshops showed up each with 6-8 people in tow. Non of the participants were problematic but one of the pros had the gall to ask me to move so that his group could have the optimum spot because they had all paid a lot of money to be there. Like my travel from Alaska was free I guess. It's good that I'm at a mellow stage in life. In my younger years I probably would have agreed to move then tripped over my shoe laces and accidentally discharged a can of bear spray
In some ways the trip was dissappointing but mostly it was a growth experience. First, I questioned my own motivation for wanting to photograph those locations that have been done to death. After all, aren't most of us trying to create something unique? Second, the whole trip changed from one of planning details to be at a given spot at the right time to one of discovery. And became a lot more fun.
From your comments it sounds like you typically have the luxury of solitude where you live and normally shoot. I recommend that you simply stick with what you know and seek the road less travelled.
I have visited the desert Southwest on 4 separate occasions. Each time, I thoroughly enjoyed myself and the primary reason for that was the solitude I found there. During my last two visits, I would often spend days at a time without meeting a single person. My impression of the desert is that it is a vast area, which thankfully is still underpopulated. With so much pristine and amazingly beautiful wilderness at my disposal, I found no reason to head to locations where I would be rubbing shoulders with other tourists and photographers.
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 7, 2013 at 6:11 PM
Speaking of workshop groups, I know it's a broad swipe, but I think often times workshop groups - and their leaders can be the worst offenders. I certainly hope none of the leaders here on NPN don't behave this way. And I hope no one here was part of the group that torqued me off in 2006 at Mono Lake.
I had plans of doing a pre-dawn shoot over Mono Lake from Test Station Road, which pretty much runs the south and west ends of Mono Lake. The road at this location provides an elevated and distant view of the lake. Been to South Tufa too many times, and wanted a grand view at dawn. So, it's still pitch black with twighlight light just beginning to emerge on the horizon. I'm a mile or so past South Tufa and in my headlights in the distance I could see a group parked on the road up ahead. As I get closer I could see the tripods all set up along the road a half dozen cars parked etc. Bear in mind this is a gravel road, and so mindful of the dust I approached very slowly to pass as my destination was further down the road. As I got closer, a guy is in the middle of the road motioning me to stop. And in most modern cars/trucks daylight lamps are automatic and I did not have the choice of turning off my lights unless I turned off the ignition. The guy told me there was a workshop and they were all set up to launch these enormous strobe to light the tufa some 1/2 mile away. I asked if I could pass and he said NO, they're getting ready to shoot. It was still dark, no color in the sky. He said they're taking readings and ready to fire the flash and I would have to wait. I would have taken 20 seconds for me to past, even crawling at 2mph. At this point, I'm getting pissed. It's a public access road and the courteous thing would be to let me pass. Not willing to give up my opportunity to photograph the dawn sky, I shut down and hoofed it up the hill and set up, above and just south of them. I guess if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
I still had plenty of time to set up 4x5, focus in the dark and capture this image (in between strob bursts.) Be courteous out there folks
I very much subscribe to the first come, first served theory. If I want the prime spot at Mesa Arch I get up extra early and arrive before anyone else. Having said that, I'm usually willing to cooperate with other photographers when at a busy location. If I get there late, I DO NOT expect anyone to move out of the way so I can have my "turn". They were there first and if they want to stand in one spot all damn morning, that's their prerogative.
I recently had to educate another photo tour guide in Moab when he and his client set up right in front of my client at Courthouse Towers. He stated that if the light materialized they would quickly make their photo and move out of the way. I kindly explained that they were in OUR way and should move out of the frame since we were there first. Another photographer, who was set up even farther back, was even more pissed off than I. He was there first and we showed up I made certain to confirm with him that we were not setting up within his frame. This other guide clearly felt that his client was more important than the rest of us. Needless to say, we didn't let him get away with it. I hope his client saw what a prick he'd hired.
In short, just be considerate of others. If you're unsure whether or not you will interfere with someone else's photograph, just ask. Most people I've encountered are friendly and more than willing to work with other photographers to ensure that everyone has a good time and walks away with a photo.
Several years ago I was directly involved with a very dangerous incident that occurred due to the lack of awareness on the part of a workshop leader.
I had finished a short hike up past the beaver ponds in Lundy Canyon in the Sierra and was drving out past Lundy Lake. The road there is very narrow and windy, with several blind spots. I was traveling at about 20 mph, and upon negotiating a curve, I saw a large sedan about 50 ft. away. I hit the brakes and had to swerve into the left lane to avoid hitting the vehicle. But here's the worst part...
Along the side of the road is a wonderful group of flaming yellow, backlit aspens. Strung along the shoulder and in the road was a group of about twenty pople, all with tripods, shooting the trees. The workshop leader was standing in front of his vehicle (the one I almost clobbered) talking to his charges. I pulled around them, parked in a crowded turnout and walked back to the instructor. I told him, in no uncertain terms, if he did not remedy this dangerous situation immediately I would call the CHP and have him ticketed.
He then said, "You can't tell me what to do!" I then told him that I was a fire fighter and EMT and that I had scraped my share of people off the road and that I wasn't about to do it today. I explained that what he was doing was illegal, and also that he was putting his students, himself, and other drivers at grave risk. They moved on about five minutes later, but with reluctance.
If I had hit his vehicle, he, and likely several others close by, would have been seriously injured. I would likely have been injured, as well. This was a classic case of 'tunnel vision' with a complete lack of situational awareness on the part of the instructor and students. So, if I could add one more thing to the list courtesies: Ensure your actions do not put others at risk of physical harm.
This has been an excellent discussion, and I am glad the topic has been brought up.
Discussion
14 repliesCome in quietly. Walk behind others, not in front. Don't set up too close. If things are very crowded, and you are trying to squeeze into a small space, ask permission.
Do'nt talk unless invited to (For me, shooting is my solace and I like peace and quiet)
Ask permission to go onto private property
Don't take stuff - sand, that cool branch, that hawk feather (illegal to have ANY poart of a raptor - feathers, bones, etc)
Don't step on plants and vegetation.
Don't use calls, lures, or bait. This may be controlled by the State anyway.
Be unobtrusive and quiet. If you're close enough that the wildlife alters it's behavior in ANY way - you're TOO close and causing stress.
Walk slowly so you don't scare the birds or animals.
That's my 2 cents - I'm sure others will add more.
Have fun!
Sandy
Some places like the 'Wave' are very small and there are 10 people trying to photograph at the same time. That area only allows 20 people a day in by permit, so it is difficult to get into and people realize that and generally will work together moving out of each others shots and not dominate the location. It may also be an opportunity to scout out another location. In November I went to the Wave with a friend and there were probably 8 photographers at the iconic location. We took a few photos working around other people, but then decided to find some solitude. We ended up hiking around a good portion of the wilderness permit area, found some great locations and didn't see another person the ret of the day. I probably had one of my most productive days I've ever spent in that area.
Same in slot canyons like Antelope Canyon, there are a ton of people but if you politely ask people to step around a corner for a minute they are generally accommodating as they need the same from others.
A key point is if you are with a bunch of people work as quickly as possible then let others do the same.
There are the 1% and you just have to stand your ground with those. Once at the Maroon Belles, one of the most photographed spots in Colorado, mostly at sunrise, I got there an hour before sunrise, was the first one there, found a good spot and set up my camera and tripod. Over the 45 minutes literally 75 other photographers showed up and did the same. About 15 minutes before sunrise this guy shows up and sets up about 50 feet away. After he sets up he yells at me that I am in his shot and I need to move. I ignore him but he continues to yell for about 5 more minutes. He finally comes over and notifies me he is a professional photographer and he does this for his living and I need to accommodate him. I simply responded that if he was truly a professional, and needed this shot to feed his family he should have arrived an hour earlier, as I and almost everyone else had. He received a number of disparaging remarks as he walked back to his camera from other photographers. In the end, he was the only problem in a group that reached almost 100 photographers, many of which were sandwiched together with overlapping tripod legs and couldn't leave without 3 other people moving their tripods.
Communication is the most important thing, talk to the other photographers, you'll get better cooperation and an opportunity to meet a new friend and perhaps get some local insight into some lesser known locations. I've found people in the West to be some of the most friendly people around so don't be afraid to strike up a conversation.
Local traditions play large in photo etiquette. The most egregious "sins" I've seen occur when folks bring their home traditions from populous areas to new locations where patterns for low density use are established. Things you do at home just might be the worst kind of insult somewhere else.
Best approach is to watch what the locals are doing and fit in, rather than trying to re-educate strangers to your reality.
The easiest thing to remember are things we learned growing up and have nothing to do with photography. Treat others as you would want to be treated, comes to mind right away. Offering your seat to someone on a bus. Don't talk or use a cell phone in a Movie theater. Don't cut in line, and perhaps let someone go in front of you that only has a couple items. You get the idea.
I think the problem you'll have won't be proper etiquette, but the etiquette of others you may come across - and that's true in all of life.
Have a great time in the desert!
Lon
Have fun and stay safe!
ps: If any of you have a point of conduct not mentiond in the linked page, send it Jim and he'll add it to the listing.
--P
I had to make a point here from an incident I encountered many years ago at the Snake River Overlook in Teton N.P.. Not to make it too lengthy there were several of us involved. 4 or 5 of us had climbed over the wall and were setup in plenty of time for sunrise. However, at the last minute here he comes tripping across the parking lot with $10k worth of gear evenly hanging from every anchor point of his body. Instead of setting up in a safe spot at the back of the wall, no, he was determined although extremely late and the rest of us already grinding shots off to jump over the wall to obtain the perfect location. As leaped over the wall he slipped and fell down taking out two other photogs to their knees with their gear sliding down the hill tripods and all. Thankfully not me.
So, a point made on the statement Lon has posted above.
In some ways the trip was dissappointing but mostly it was a growth experience. First, I questioned my own motivation for wanting to photograph those locations that have been done to death. After all, aren't most of us trying to create something unique? Second, the whole trip changed from one of planning details to be at a given spot at the right time to one of discovery. And became a lot more fun.
From your comments it sounds like you typically have the luxury of solitude where you live and normally shoot. I recommend that you simply stick with what you know and seek the road less travelled.
I had plans of doing a pre-dawn shoot over Mono Lake from Test Station Road, which pretty much runs the south and west ends of Mono Lake. The road at this location provides an elevated and distant view of the lake. Been to South Tufa too many times, and wanted a grand view at dawn. So, it's still pitch black with twighlight light just beginning to emerge on the horizon. I'm a mile or so past South Tufa and in my headlights in the distance I could see a group parked on the road up ahead. As I get closer I could see the tripods all set up along the road a half dozen cars parked etc. Bear in mind this is a gravel road, and so mindful of the dust I approached very slowly to pass as my destination was further down the road. As I got closer, a guy is in the middle of the road motioning me to stop. And in most modern cars/trucks daylight lamps are automatic and I did not have the choice of turning off my lights unless I turned off the ignition. The guy told me there was a workshop and they were all set up to launch these enormous strobe to light the tufa some 1/2 mile away. I asked if I could pass and he said NO, they're getting ready to shoot. It was still dark, no color in the sky. He said they're taking readings and ready to fire the flash and I would have to wait. I would have taken 20 seconds for me to past, even crawling at 2mph. At this point, I'm getting pissed. It's a public access road and the courteous thing would be to let me pass. Not willing to give up my opportunity to photograph the dawn sky, I shut down and hoofed it up the hill and set up, above and just south of them. I guess if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
I still had plenty of time to set up 4x5, focus in the dark and capture this image (in between strob bursts.) Be courteous out there folks
I recently had to educate another photo tour guide in Moab when he and his client set up right in front of my client at Courthouse Towers. He stated that if the light materialized they would quickly make their photo and move out of the way. I kindly explained that they were in OUR way and should move out of the frame since we were there first. Another photographer, who was set up even farther back, was even more pissed off than I. He was there first and we showed up I made certain to confirm with him that we were not setting up within his frame. This other guide clearly felt that his client was more important than the rest of us. Needless to say, we didn't let him get away with it. I hope his client saw what a prick he'd hired.
In short, just be considerate of others. If you're unsure whether or not you will interfere with someone else's photograph, just ask. Most people I've encountered are friendly and more than willing to work with other photographers to ensure that everyone has a good time and walks away with a photo.
Have a great trip!
I had finished a short hike up past the beaver ponds in Lundy Canyon in the Sierra and was drving out past Lundy Lake. The road there is very narrow and windy, with several blind spots. I was traveling at about 20 mph, and upon negotiating a curve, I saw a large sedan about 50 ft. away. I hit the brakes and had to swerve into the left lane to avoid hitting the vehicle. But here's the worst part...
Along the side of the road is a wonderful group of flaming yellow, backlit aspens. Strung along the shoulder and in the road was a group of about twenty pople, all with tripods, shooting the trees. The workshop leader was standing in front of his vehicle (the one I almost clobbered) talking to his charges. I pulled around them, parked in a crowded turnout and walked back to the instructor. I told him, in no uncertain terms, if he did not remedy this dangerous situation immediately I would call the CHP and have him ticketed.
He then said, "You can't tell me what to do!" I then told him that I was a fire fighter and EMT and that I had scraped my share of people off the road and that I wasn't about to do it today. I explained that what he was doing was illegal, and also that he was putting his students, himself, and other drivers at grave risk. They moved on about five minutes later, but with reluctance.
If I had hit his vehicle, he, and likely several others close by, would have been seriously injured. I would likely have been injured, as well. This was a classic case of 'tunnel vision' with a complete lack of situational awareness on the part of the instructor and students. So, if I could add one more thing to the list courtesies: Ensure your actions do not put others at risk of physical harm.
This has been an excellent discussion, and I am glad the topic has been brought up.
--P