Posted by Charlie Baugh on January 24, 2013 at 3:29 PM
Want to try that in English, Hank?
Posted by Tim Butler on January 24, 2013 at 5:35 PM
I've wondered something of the same thing as Charlie. It seems people are reluctant to comment on photos. Why do you suppose it is that an image can get 60-70 views and only 2 comments? Even a bad image should get "some" action, right? It seems like a lot of people are afraid to say something good for fear that a site God might find something to nit about. If this site is "no news is good news" then it may not be for me. I'm interested in discourse about our images. I'd greatly appreciate to know what others think about this. This is a great site with incredible photographers. But too many appear to be mute?
. Why do you suppose it is that an image can get 60-70 views and only 2 comments?
I'd greatly appreciate to know what others think about this. This is a great site with incredible photographers. But too many appear to be mute?
Hi Tim,
this has come up many times in the past as a viable question. There are folks who can view images but do not have access to commenting. Non members for example. Additionally, at one time I think NPN had a tiered system of membership. I could be wrong on this point but they had regional access but not gallery access for comments. This ultimately leads to a third point on the subject and always does. One must look toward certain efforts being applied by a C/P ratio. This Comment to Post ratio may not be a key consideration of how things work overall, but it does a lot for keeping a strong support toward the site and those who do participate at all levels.
Just my 2 cents worth on the subject.
Posted by Tim Butler on January 24, 2013 at 6:46 PM
Paul, I certainly appreciate you taking the time to respond. However, I'm not sure I understand what you're telling me. Purely my inability to comprehend I'm sure! All I know is that I've posted one of the best shots I have to offer and it has close to 75 views and two comments. If that's because those viewers can't comment then perhaps the requirements are too strict. If its because my best doesn't generate any interest then I don't belong here and we need not waste each others time. But again, and I mean this, thank you for commenting.
Tim, you're quite welcome. I was glad to have taken the time to at least comment here.
Trying not to confuse things too much on the viewing and commenting abilities of a person if they're not a member they just cannot comment. So, some of the hits you might see can be folks just surfing the net and viewing images for no particular reason. That's not a restriction per se, it's just not an open commenting site. There are some good reasons for that too. There is a certain amount of protection for members from net surfing types just looking for a place to dump an ugly comment.
Not sure I've helped make things a bit clearer or just muddied the waters more. Again, it's just my 2 cents worth and obviously nothing official.
I have also definitely noticed a decline in comments in the various galleries. Maybe it's a seasonal thing that there is less participation overall. However, I do notice many different people posting, and if they all would be making at least 5 comments, the comments would be plentiful! I do think it would be helpful to have this 5 comments per posting recommendation at the top of each gallery when one goes to post a photo as I'm not real sure everyone is aware of this. Now it says "Please contribute to these galleries by posting your comments too!" And the next line says "Questions about posting photos? Refer to the Posting Guidelines". When clicking on the posting guidelines and scrolling through one finally gets to the 5 comments per post suggestion. Instead I would like to see it say "Please contribute to these galleries by posting your comments too! NPN staff suggestion--For every photo you post, comment on at least 5." at the top of each gallery when one goes to post a photo. That way the suggestion is in front of everyone while posting. Just a thought of what might help.
Carolyn, I did not make it as specific as you've done, but that was one of my points with regard to C/P ratio. I'm sure for many who have been here for a period of time this is not a new subject at all. However, the unwritten 5 to 1 suggestive ratio in the past was a very easily achieved standard IMO. I thought as an idea that once you posted your image in a category it would not populate the gallery until you'd commented 5 times that given day. But, that could easily lead to comments such as ; "wonderful", just to meet the quota.
So, the beat goes on.
Posted by Charlie Baugh on January 24, 2013 at 9:26 PM
Hank, I do believe you are ignoring me.
Posted by scott lanz on January 24, 2013 at 9:33 PM
Charlie, Tim, this topic has certainly been covered, but periodic reminders and admonitions serve a purpose, thanks for raising it. Everyone should, at a minimum, follow the NPN guidelines, which call for a comment to post ratio of 5:1. Personally, I think a much higher ratio should be the norm, and it is for many. What I find frustrating, in particular, are people who have a low comment to post ratio, but when they post an image, say something like "Comments on this one would be greatly appreciated." If they would appreciate comments on their photos, you would think they would understand that everyone feels the same way. It goes without saying, but I will repeat it anyway, that if a poster wants comments on his or her images, they should comment on the images of others. Why should someone take the time to continue to comment on someone's images if that person has rarely or never taken the time or effort to comment on theirs? People should also try to comment on a regular or semi-regular basis, as opposed to just when they post an image. Finally, people should try to comment on the the images of newer or less frequent image posters rather than on just the more known photographers. Of course, for newer members, commenting on images is a good way to get you more known and get people to comment on your images.
Posted by Carol Nichols on January 24, 2013 at 10:22 PM
I heartlily agree with Carolyn that the "5 comments per post" guideline needs to be where everyone can see it. I would have to search all over to even find it right now. I also think that when you see someone with a low ratio, remind them of the posting guideline and explain the benefits of the guideline to both them and the rest of the community. This can be done nicely and yet still make the point. I do this once in a while and I've seen a few others do it, but there are many, many instances where it should be done.
“Sorry Charlie. That tuna don't swim.”
Ha ha… that’s pretty funny, Hank. Not bad.
Now I think I’ll enjoy some fine photos without commenting.That is, if it’s ok.
Posted by Paul DeCesare on January 25, 2013 at 2:40 AM
When I come across an image posted that looks more like a snapshot that came with the frame then a true planned fine art nature image, I am definitely reluctant to hurt someone's feelings, which is totally opposite of what i want when I post a shot. I usually state "please rip it apart if need be, I'd like some real feedback", and usually people will then pipe up. I feel bad when someone does post something that definitely needs some critiquing in order to help and guide them, and they get 74 views a not a single comment. To me, that pretty much critiques the image and not in an encouraging way. The thing is, the best lessons I've ever learned is when people DID pipe up and state what they've liked and not liked.
SO! I have a solution: let's get Jim to create a new forum for those who really want advice. We can call it I'm Pretty Sure This Stinks and Feel Free to Blast With Both Barrels.
I know... that really didn't really help the situation much...
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 25, 2013 at 6:49 AM
While we encourage active participation and point out that writing critiques are just as useful as receiving them, the following important fact must always be kept in-mind when considering the view/comment ratio;
Each month - due to our SEO for terms such as nature, nature photography, wildlife photography, bird photography, etc. - this site receives on average 80,000 unique visitors, of which less than 2% are members who can post.
Yes, your photos are viewed by a HUGE public audience who come to NPN for nothing more than to enjoy the photography posted by NPN members!
Posted by Tim Butler on January 25, 2013 at 7:45 AM
I would really like to thank everyone who has responded in this thread. It has given me a much better understanding of the "personality" here at NPN and a much better grasp on why some things might "appear" as they do, especially in light of Mr. Erhardt's last comment. I will also admit that I was not aware of the 5-1 "rule". I will do my part to be more involved as well.
Paul - when you get that new forum up and running let me know. I'm pretty sure I can come up with some fodder for you!
Posted by John Tobias on January 25, 2013 at 8:08 AM
I look upon NPN as a site for learning and exchanging. I have posted many photos since joining in 2009 and may well hold the record for fewest comments received. But, I still keep posting, why because I enjoy photography and sharing my photos. I do appreciate when I get comments and frequently receive advice I put into practice. Not ever image I post is a great photo, but they are ones I would like to think photographer will enjoy seeing. I am retired and may have more time to make comments than others, but not every comment IMHO needs to be in in depth evaluation of the image. I have no problem getting or giving comments that are simple, like "outstanding or good image". Just my 2 cents worth.
Tim,
Jim has clearly pointed out more in depth with actual numbers what I had stated earlier about reviews by non members adding to a posted image "Viewing" peg count.
However, I hope not to confuse things further but the "View/Comment ratio" Jim has outlined is different then the "Comment/Post ratio" that I mentioned as well as by others who have commented on in this thread.
Posted by Tim Butler on January 25, 2013 at 9:53 AM
Thanks Paul, I think I got it. If I understand correctly, NPN would like, not as a requirement but a request, for active members to comment on at least 5 other images for every one they post.
Posted by John Neukirch on January 25, 2013 at 9:57 AM
Boy, this thread sure struck a nerve. Being a relative newcomer to the group (July 2012) I’m still immersed in the process of trying to figure out all the characters and their personalities. I’m sure everyone has their own opinions and expectations about what makes this site a successful and worthwhile endeavor. I believe as with most collaborative ventures you’re going to have people who jump in and contribute regularly, those that contribute occasionally and those that lurk in the shadows and only join in the conversation once in a blue moon. Everybody’s circumstances are unique and I won’t judge them solely on their posting habits. For me I’m significantly below the 5:1 ratio, I stated in another thread earlier about goals for this year and listed one about needing to do more comment posting. Unfortunately for me right now there are not enough hours in the day, I would love nothing more than to devote all my time to photography and related activities. Maybe someday I will be able to live the dream. That’s not an excuse mind you but more a reminder of one of the things I find so valuable with NPN. To have such a large collection of people interested in the art of photography come together to offer advice and encouragement to everyone from the most seasoned pro to the youngest first time P&S neophyte. What I’ve learned from the honest critiques of both my images posted and those of others have been invaluable and much appreciated. That’s my two cents………at least for now.
Posted by David Bostedo on January 25, 2013 at 10:24 AM
What I’ve learned from the honest critiques of both my images posted and those of others have been invaluable and much appreciated. That’s my two cents………at least for now.
John - I'll just add that in my opinion, you learn as much or more by critically thinking about other people's images and providing a critique than you do by getting comments on your own images. It may be a good exercise to not post anything of your own for a while, and take that prep time and go in and comment!
Posted by Tim Butler on January 25, 2013 at 10:53 AM
David, I understand the concept of what you suggest and I have to think that technically its actually true. But I'm not sure how many people are really going to be open minded enough to accept criticism on their images from someone who's not even posting any. I hope I'm wrong. I hope this place is filled with MANY more open minded people than what I find at other places.
John - you have only posted two images? I looked at your website. You should post more! Your work is remarkable, IMO.
Tim, you've got the general idea and a somewhat collective understanding among NPN members overall. I find a 5-1 ratio easily obtainable over time. New members might be a bit hesitant at first, totally understandable, but the more they comment I feel the more they learn as well. David outlines some strong points on that approach toward commenting and the learning process.
Posted by Charlie Baugh on January 25, 2013 at 12:14 PM
There is another aspect of this seaming reluctance to comment or respond. Preston Birdwell started two separate topics in this forum that seemed were subjects that would take off. They didn't. I wonder why?
Charlie, I do remember one of Preston's topics and I responded to it as I recall very recently.
Although the discussion in this thread was based more upon gallery photo posting/viewing/commenting overall.
As for forum discussions I can tell you that I know several folks who post and comment quite regularly that never really visit the forums at all. So, the participation on the topics or forums probably see much less traffic I would suspect. But, you've got a good point on information sharing that takes place away from the photo galleries.
Posted by David Bostedo on January 25, 2013 at 12:42 PM
But I'm not sure how many people are really going to be open minded enough to accept criticism on their images from someone who's not even posting any.
I don't think there's too much open mindedness needed. People can take or leave the actual criticism they receive, and if they want to weight it according to who it's coming from, they are more than welcome to. But the critique forums are for free and open (and civil and honest!) critique. So while it probably pays to err on the side of being gentle in your negative comments, there's nothing wrong with making them.
As with a lot of things, you also get out what you put in...
"Nice one" is a good comment to leave, but "This is a nice one because..." followed by some reasoning is better.
"This doesn't work for me" is a good comment to leave, but "This doesn't work for me because..." followed by some reasoning is better.
And when I say better, I mean better for the original poster because it give them more solid information, AND better for the person critiquing the image because it makes them think more in depth.
Posted by John Neukirch on January 25, 2013 at 12:56 PM
David, perhaps you may be correct. I will certainly take it under advisement.
Tim, thank you for the compliment. Not sure how you’re looking at the image posts but I currently have 107 images posted in various galleries.
5-1 is a recommended minimum. If you really want to be involved and want more feedback, try 10-1. If you notice, those folks that have been here for a while and get comments usually have higher than the minimum ratio. For most of us, you'll get a grace period, but after a while when you're showing 100 posts with 42 comments.... well.... you only get what you give in the end.
Paul wrote: "As for forum discussions I can tell you that I know several folks who post and comment quite regularly that never really visit the forums at all. So, the participation on the topics or forums probably see much less traffic I would suspect. But, you've got a good point on information sharing that takes place away from the photo galleries."
Charlie and Paul:
In my opinion, photography is an art form, and as such there are aspects of it bear discssion apart from actual images and gear. My recent thread in the Landscape Photo Forum, "Landscape Photographs-What makes them 'sing'?" was posted so that folks would really think about the landscape photography genre in hopes the comments would be an inspiration.
Secondarily, I posted the announcement of that thread in this forum because I would like to see more activity in the discussion forums.
NPN, with it's critique galleries, discussion forums, regional groups, and articles, is an enormous resource; one that the members should be proud of and utilize to the fullest extent possible.
--P
Posted by Tim Butler on January 25, 2013 at 2:58 PM
John, my bad. I misunderstand this comment....
"What I’ve learned from the honest critiques of both my images posted......."
Charlie Van Tassel, I get it, ok? It's been explained in great detail. But your post does illustrate quite well my suspicion (fear actually) that this site operates under the steam of an elite few and the rest of us will all do it your way or hit the highway, so to speak. When I first came here I tried to be respectful and post some images but not make too much noise on the established group. Now I'm told the opposite, if I want more comments I need to post less and comment more. Seems backward to me but hey, it's your sandbox.
Posted by Charlie Baugh on January 25, 2013 at 3:36 PM
Is it explained to potential members that they must meet certain, what are called "guidelines", or they will not receive the attention they may expect based on how the site appears to them before membership? Is this site equally welcoming and helpful to all members?
From some of the responses above it gives an appearance that to pay the fee ONLY gets one the opportunity to TRY to fit in.
Ok, let's all step back a bit. I sense some feathers are starting to get ruffled. I think Jim has enlightened us about why we may get a lot of views compared to comments due to non-members being able to view the site. And I'm glad we can get that additional exposture. However, I still think we need to do a better job of encouraging NPN members to comment more. The number of views is nice but I really look to the comments to learn how an image is perceived. As I stated earlier, I think logistic-wise we need to make the recommended 5:1 ratio more visible--a gentle reminder with each posting. And as Carol said, kindly remind those with a low post-to-comment ratio to comment more.
And please, let's not go down the "elite" route. It is natural in any organization that those who are active particpants will get the most recognition. Look at NPN member, Albert Darmo. He has about 400 postings but over 7,000 comments! When he posts, he usually gets lots of comments since he has commented on so many posts of others.
But also keep in mind for some persons it is a big step to post an image, let alone critique someone elses. We are here to encourage and learn and help nurture the beginners as we once all were. EVERYONE deserves a comment on an image they post. Let's all do our part to keep our own ratio up and encourage each other. Please no polarization! There is enough of that in this country. Ok, I will get off my soapbox now. . .
Posted by scott lanz on January 25, 2013 at 4:32 PM
Tim, Charlie VT can speak for himself, but I think maybe you read too much between the lines. In my experience, this site is not operated by an "elite few," although it does have more than its share of elite photographers. It is very much a community forum. And no one is saying to post less. All I tried to say, is that, in general, if someone wants more comments on their images, one of the best ways to accomplish this is by being active (and respectful, of course) in commenting on the images of others. Obviously, the more people comment on the site as a whole, the more comments there will be on average per post. You previously noted that you received few comments on one of your images. That is unfortunate. This is why I said members should try to comment more, even more than the guideline, and to make a particular effort to comment on the work of new members. This is not a requirement, of course, but just a suggestion to try to make the site better for everyone. Being new here yourself, it is understandable if you were under a different impression, and is it only natural that new members may feel a little intimidated about posting (both image and comments). I know I did.
It's always interesting to see how folks react when this topic (or variations of it) come up, as seems to happen almost annually. NPN is what it is, and the quality of this site reflects on its membership and the level of our commitment to ensure it remains the top nature photography critique site.
As far as commitment goes, actively critiquing images (beyond the 5:1 suggested ratio, in my opinion) is critical and should go hand in hand with a member's expectations regarding feedback on his/her own images. The notion that an image should get "what it deserves" in terms of comments--irrespective of the participation level of the individual who posted it--is silly to me. I understand being intimidated at first, but I personally don't think there's much of a grace period.
Nor do I think we need a reminder of the 5:1 suggested ratio included at top of each gallery page. If you understand what NPN is, a reminder to post critiques is unnecessary and obtrusive. I don't mean to totally knock it as a suggestion...I just don't personally see it as a solution.
Posted by Tim Butler on January 25, 2013 at 6:39 PM
Phil - if it comes up annually perhaps it should be addressed? Oh but wait, you are committed to it being what "it is". This kind of attitude is what helps promote the intimidation, IMO.
Scott - I appreciate your comments, and agree with your concept. But in practice something seems to be missing. On one hand you recognize that it may be intimidating to a new member to comment on other people's images, images by many of whom may be long time members. But on the other hand you have long time members telling new members if they expect to get any attention they need to go out and do more of the very thing that is admittedly intimidating to them. I'm sorry but that seems upside down to me. If a group is really interested in generating new and active members (and not just membership dues) it seems to me it should be the other way around, encouraging them rather than ignoring them because they haven't commented enough. I agree that's not the message you presented in your response. But it's definitely the impression left by some others in this thread.
I didn't come here to fight and I don't hope or expect to change anyone's mind about anything. I just wanted to know why it seemed so difficult to get comments. Now I know. In my mind this is art and supposed to be fun. So before I just piss everybody off I'm going to let you all go back to having yours and I'm going to do the same. But considering the number of people viewing this thread I think this subject may be of interest to more people than it was to just me."
Just to clarify, when I say NPN is what it is, what I mean is that it is a critique site that depends 100% on the give and take of its membership. Tim, I think you have some very fine work posted and I don't mean to discourage your participation...much less create or contribute to any intimidation. Instead, I encourage you to set aside any reluctance you may have to comment on images and just jump right in.
Posted by Brian Gatlin on January 25, 2013 at 7:16 PM
In terms of the number of comments that each image gets, the math is pretty simple. If people are commenting on 5 images for every one they post, then every image will average 5 comments. Better images will probably end up with more, people who have provided critiques and comments to many other people will also probably get more, leaving the others with fewer. Five comments per image would seem pretty low to me. I'm disappointed if a post I make only garners 5 comments, and so I make an effort to comment on way more than 5 images for every post I make.
Far from running on the efforts of an "elite few," the site depends on everyone participating for it to work. And like others have said, I've learned at least as much from thinking critically about others' images as I have from comments on my own work.
Posted by Tim Butler on January 25, 2013 at 7:29 PM
Phil, thanks for the clarification. I'm not reluctant to comment at all. I don't have a 5:1 ratio, I think it's 55:15 when it should be 75:15 according to the "suggested" ratio. But I didn't know of the "suggestion". My problem is that new members are put in the position of wondering why their work gets little to no attention, and might leave as a result, or if they do muster the courage to ask, get told to go comment more. They've already been left feeling neglected and you're asking them to go be MORE involved with the very ones who've been neglecting them. Why not just encourage them and embrace them in the first place? Doesn't it seem like that would promote more involvement than the other way?
If I don't increase or continue with my making comments it will be because I disagree with that principle and not because I'm reluctant to comment.
Tim, on average you can expect about one comment for every 10 views. This is true for even us elite types that have been here for many years. At least for the photos that you have in your gallery this is pretty close to what you're getting. Also, it seems to me that the comments you got early on were pretty encouraging. I think that you're doing okay. Just sayin'
NPN, with it's critique galleries, discussion forums, regional groups, and articles, is an enormous resource; one that the members should be proud of and utilize to the fullest extent possible.
Preston,
I totally agree. I've always found the forums and articles very helpful and informative. So although the NPN site hosts the marquee of amazing nature photos as it's cornerstone there are many folks that find the other aspects of the site as part of the overall draw. So there is a lot to be offered to those that care to use the various drop downs for navigation beyond the various galleries.
Posted by David Bostedo on January 25, 2013 at 8:47 PM
My problem is that new members are put in the position of wondering why their work gets little to no attention, and might leave as a result, or if they do muster the courage to ask, get told to go comment more. They've already been left feeling neglected and you're asking them to go be MORE involved with the very ones who've been neglecting them. Why not just encourage them and embrace them in the first place? Doesn't it seem like that would promote more involvement than the other way?
Those are good questions/comments. Some of my thoughts...
My problem is that new members are put in the position of wondering why their work gets little to no attention, and might leave as a result, or if they do muster the courage to ask, get told to go comment more.
NPN is a community. It's not a group of paid critics, and there's no way to simply get more feedback/attention just by asking for it. I DO think moderators are encouraged to try to make an effort to help by commenting more with new members, and typically people are very welcoming and friendly. But it can take some time and quite a few posts and comments to sort-of find a place here.
As an analogy, though NPN is online, it's perhaps similar to being in any physical social group - say, at a party. At first you're probably a little quiet and possible a lot of folks don't talk to you. But as you become more active, you begin to be a part of more activity. And like any group, there will still be butterflies and wallflowers, and everything in between. And I think that's what drives the suggestions to participate more yourself in other work, if you also want others to participate in your work; It's not that there are strict rules or anything, but it does tend to be how social groups work.
And as stated above, there is also a mathematical element to it. Without putting in a little effort, most folks would probably post more than they comment - it seems to be human nature. If that continued, and people didn't make an effort to communicate and comment and encourage others to do the same, the site would wither.
So when someone puts in the effort to comment a lot, it's appreciated, and tends to create a better forum for everyone, and raise the comments and visibility across the board for more than just them. Again, it's a community of people, and it tends to rise and fall together.
They've already been left feeling neglected and you're asking them to go be MORE involved with the very ones who've been neglecting them.
Again, you tend to get out what you put in, in any of these kinds of things. And encouraging participation helps to avoid having a lot of folks show up who just want to post ten images, and expect 100 comments with no other participation on their part. (And yes, there have been some folks here like that on occasion... but not often.) I think people's tendency is to want that, because it's easy, and provides either validation or constructive feedback. But this site is not at all a one way street that way - and can't be, or the galleries won't work.
Why not just encourage them and embrace them in the first place? Doesn't it seem like that would promote more involvement than the other way?
Two questions : 1) What would you consider embracing someone and how are new folks on NPN not being embraced? 2) What is the "other way" you mention?
Hopefully people are welcoming and encouraging. I know I've seen lots of comments for less experienced photographers on here (myself included!) that are very helpful and less negative than what some more familiar/more experienced folks would get. And plenty of greetings and welcomes and helpful tips. Are there other things that could be done? If so, maybe a thread on better introducing new members to the site would be good. Folks are generally open to new ideas too, especially if they can help!
I'm one of the oldtimers on here; you can't tell by my posting/comments numbers because I changed my login several years ago and started over. I have a couple of things to say to the newer people, especially those who aren't making very many comments on others' images:
1. Why would you think you don't have the "expertise" to make comments? The general public doesn't have that expertise, but they know what they like. That's the key, to be able to figure out WHY you like or don't like something. It's a very personal reaction, and unique to each person; that's what makes it so tough to come up with images that everyone likes. You don't need to be an expert photographer to be able figure out why you are attracted to something. Sure, there's the technical aspect, but there's plenty of people on here to help out with that.
2. Don't people realize how much time and effort it takes to make comments? What makes newcomers think that all the people with those high numbers of comments have more time than anyone else? Everybody likes to get comments back on their images, but isn't it both common sense and being considerate to realize that there's give and take on this? I mean, honestly, it seems like some people think that there are a bunch of people just sitting there, just WAITING for someone to post and image so they can comment on it. I seriously don't think that is the case We are all busy.
I think it ought to be clearly posted what the expectation is for making comments so that newcomers , and yes, it's OK to bring it up once in awhile.
As for me, I have gone back to work full time and have been traveling a lot, so I've had to use either a smart phone or a laptop (with horrible color), so my involvement has been really low for the past couple of years. Sure, I'd like to do more, but paying the bills comes first....
Posted by Bill Fach on January 27, 2013 at 3:05 PM
Tim et al: I'm kind of late to this party but as one who grew up photographically at NPN I can say that commenting on shots as some sort of requirement is a poor reason to do so. Fairly early in the thread David B recommended commenting as a way to learn. I agree 100%. If you look at a photo carefully enough you can make a comment and if you look enough you will start to see some of that knowledge translating into your own images. When I started moderating I made it my formal personal policy to comment on every image in Flora but I had pretty much been doing that already for a couple of years. It is the careful examination of images that leads to growth. If your main intent through your participation in NPN is to become a better photographer then commenting is a great place to start. If one merely is looking for kudos (which is actually OK by me) then you pretty much have to take what you get and that may include unspoken disapproval by being ignored. I also think the different galleries have different personalities and different participants. As to Jim's stats, I think that especially applies to Landscape which probably gets more casual non-member views than the other galleries.>=))>
Posted by Tim Butler on January 27, 2013 at 6:06 PM
Somehow this has turned into trying to convince me why me commenting more is good, will teach me, will get more response.....I know all that. I WAS commenting, apparently just not enough to suit the "group".
I guess it boils down to this, IMO you don't do a good enough job of explaining to new members that if they want anyone to comment on their work they need to go out and comment a LOT on other people's work. Again, IMO it's human nature (and quite frankly, polite) for newcomers to hold back and not jump out there commenting, especially critiquing, the established group. At some point in this discussion I had posted 15 images made 55 comments. It didn't seem to me like I was NOT contributing enough. So when I posted an image and it had 78 views and 2 comments, I asked why in this forum. Interestingly, since this forum thread it's gotten much more attention. But asking that question in this forum is the only time it's been made clear to a newcomer what all of the "old timers" seem to feel verbatim, and that is that its expected of newcomers to act counterintuitively. After making 55 comments on other people's images and posting one of my best and only getting two comments, I was faced with two choices. Leave or ask why. If I had not come here and stirred this pot I wouldn't have known all of your feelings on this and I would have left. I understand what you're saying now. I even commend you on it for encouraging newcomers to comment. But you need to advertise more. If 55 comments to 15 posts is going to garner the "unspoken disapproval of being ignored"', then you need to be more clear about what ratio does get approval. It's clear in this thread, but where else?
A few of you have indicated above that I haven't done bad here and that I've gotten encouraging comments, etc. Thats 100% true. I've had great comments, suggestions and encouragement. I only questioned the number of them. Look, I'm obviously the only person bothered by this since out of 55x views of this thread I'm the only one saying anything. So if you are all ok with things the way they are, then so am I. I don't need any more convincing. I do appreciate this group and I am learning here. And now that I know about 1 comment per 10 views (WITH a healthy comment participation) is about normal, everything's cool. I just think you could do a better job of making that clear to newcomers.
Posted by Carol Nichols on January 27, 2013 at 6:30 PM
Tim, I agree with your latest comments. When I see that someone has a low comment to post ratio and I kindly suggest that they should be making the recommended 5 comments per post, almost always they reply that they didn't know this recommended guideline. That is why I agree with Carolyn's post that this guideline should be clearly stated where everyone can easily see it. I can see where it would be very frustrating for a newcomer such as yourself to not be getting what they expect out of the site because they weren't following the recommended quidelines when they weren't even aware of the recommended guidelines.
"Again, IMO it's human nature (and quite frankly, polite) for newcomers to hold back and not jump out there commenting, especially critiquing, the established group.
That's the key element: "human nature". Well, perhaps throwing out 'human nature' in the context of this discussion is what needs to happen.
The sooner a new person jumps in and makes comments on the images of the 'established group'**, the 'established group' will realize the new person has a strong desire to participate and to learn. While politness is certainly appreciated by everyone, jumping in and participating will also be appreciated. I do not believe that most folks here would consider that impolite.
**Who is the 'established group'? Yes, there are lots of folks here who've been around for a while (I've been here over ten years), but NPN is a dynamic community; yesterday's new person is tomorrow's 'established group' member.
I see NPN like a group of folks sitting around a campfire, so pull up a chair, we don't bite.
--P
Posted by Stan Rose on January 28, 2013 at 12:03 AM
When I first joined i practically went out of my way to critique the best photogs here. Why? Cause It made it slightly more likely that I'd get comments/advice from them, cause it helped me by evaluating those who I considered the 'best'--you learn by analysis--and because I felt it an honor to have the ability to do so. Can you critique your favorite pro athletes, your favorite pro musicians, your favorite actors? No. But you can communicate with some truly world class talent here, and that's one of the things that makes this site unique.
Posted by Charlie Baugh on January 28, 2013 at 9:04 AM
A thought I had and wondered if others have ever felt this way. When first coming to NPN I was intimidated by the emphasis on "critique" and seeming reluctance to leaving simple praise of an image. I know I felt often that I had to find something to say that was hopefully a way of improving the subject image. I'm not generally a shy person but I must say that I passed many images without comment because I felt I had nothing to say in a critique way. I now post, compliment only, comments far more often than I did early on. This perhaps is a major reason others pass without comment many images.
Posted by Stan Rose on January 28, 2013 at 11:11 AM
Could be, Charlie. I think there's room for both types of comments, and no one should feel 'pressured' to do one or the other. From my own perspective, I personally don't think there is any such thing as a 'perfect' image. I joked in a recent comment that the only way a particular photo could have been better was if there was a 'dancing elk' in the image. I was only half-joking, because I think there's always something around the corner that can top what you've already accomplished. That may be an unhealthy perspective (never being satisfied) but it's what keeps me interested and what drives me. I could always find something critical to say of a photo. Most of the time, I don't--because I don't want to come across as an even bigger jerk than i am After a gazillion comments, I feel like im pretty good at knowing when to praise and when to critique. That in itself is a bit of an art form (critique) and while I may not always get it right, i think i'll keep getting better at it.
Posted by William Gillis on February 2, 2013 at 10:51 AM
I am really late to this discussion but I wanted to think over all of the comments presented and at least sound intelligent. I have been a member for just a little over a year and was reluctant to renew my membership because of the lack of comments and or views of the images I posted. So I held back postings and comments on other images for awhile evaluating the work of others posting and the comments they were making. In the beginning I found posting images - then waiting for comments really intimidating. Thinking my work would not be up to par with other images I had been looking at for a year before I joined NPN. I discovered with my first few images posted that the real question was, Do I need approval of others to justify my existence as a nature photographer? I have since re-evaluated my thinking and decided I either have to bite the bullet and start making more comments and post more to improve my photography. Early on Scott Lanz mentioned in a comment on one of my images that I needed to make more comments. Since I renewed I have been making more comments and the results have appeared as increased views per image and comments as well. Now I comment readily and have started to critique. Offering a critique of ones work is in itself more intimidating than commenting even though they may be one and the same. That's my two cents worth. By the way- I did not read all of the posting guidelines because I missed the 5-1 comment suggestion.
Thanks for your time.
William Gillis
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 4, 2013 at 5:47 AM
The 5 to 1 comments/post ratio is suggested in the Posting Guidelines, a link to which can be found at the top of all forums and galleries in the green bar.
Posted by Tim Butler on February 4, 2013 at 8:53 AM
William Gillis,
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Your comments echoed many of my sentiments as well. But more importantly thank you for sticking it out and persevering. Otherwise we would miss the body of your work. Kind regards.
Posted by Jeff Lewis on February 6, 2013 at 5:45 PM
I'm an actual prospective member in my one month trial, a 12 year playing-around-the-edges amateur at wildlife photography, wandering around trying to see if this site'd be a good resource for trying to actually get my wildlife photography to the next level.
Given that I'm an amateur (I'd call me a level 3 to most of you being 7+ on a 10 point scale) the biggest thing lacking from the site for me is a beginner's or Just Getting Started gallery and associated forum, with some more relaxed rules around the whole posting and critique thing. For me the galleries ARE both intimidating and seemingly somewhat hamstrung in how useful they'd be to somebody at my level, so I'd appreciate a more inviting alternative to ease into things and get up-to-speed, where there can be more of an interaction around all the steps involved in producing those final images in the current galleries.
I'm happy to be market research and answer any questions any of you have about a newcomer's impressions, as well.
Discussion
52 repliesHas terminal "shyness" set in?
Hi Tim,
this has come up many times in the past as a viable question. There are folks who can view images but do not have access to commenting. Non members for example. Additionally, at one time I think NPN had a tiered system of membership. I could be wrong on this point but they had regional access but not gallery access for comments. This ultimately leads to a third point on the subject and always does. One must look toward certain efforts being applied by a C/P ratio. This Comment to Post ratio may not be a key consideration of how things work overall, but it does a lot for keeping a strong support toward the site and those who do participate at all levels.
Just my 2 cents worth on the subject.
Trying not to confuse things too much on the viewing and commenting abilities of a person if they're not a member they just cannot comment. So, some of the hits you might see can be folks just surfing the net and viewing images for no particular reason. That's not a restriction per se, it's just not an open commenting site. There are some good reasons for that too. There is a certain amount of protection for members from net surfing types just looking for a place to dump an ugly comment.
Not sure I've helped make things a bit clearer or just muddied the waters more. Again, it's just my 2 cents worth and obviously nothing official.
So, the beat goes on.
Ha ha… that’s pretty funny, Hank. Not bad.
Now I think I’ll enjoy some fine photos without commenting.That is, if it’s ok.
SO! I have a solution: let's get Jim to create a new forum for those who really want advice. We can call it I'm Pretty Sure This Stinks and Feel Free to Blast With Both Barrels.
I know... that really didn't really help the situation much...
Each month - due to our SEO for terms such as nature, nature photography, wildlife photography, bird photography, etc. - this site receives on average 80,000 unique visitors, of which less than 2% are members who can post.
Yes, your photos are viewed by a HUGE public audience who come to NPN for nothing more than to enjoy the photography posted by NPN members!
Paul - when you get that new forum up and running let me know. I'm pretty sure I can come up with some fodder for you!
Jim has clearly pointed out more in depth with actual numbers what I had stated earlier about reviews by non members adding to a posted image "Viewing" peg count.
However, I hope not to confuse things further but the "View/Comment ratio" Jim has outlined is different then the "Comment/Post ratio" that I mentioned as well as by others who have commented on in this thread.
John - I'll just add that in my opinion, you learn as much or more by critically thinking about other people's images and providing a critique than you do by getting comments on your own images. It may be a good exercise to not post anything of your own for a while, and take that prep time and go in and comment!
John - you have only posted two images? I looked at your website. You should post more! Your work is remarkable, IMO.
Although the discussion in this thread was based more upon gallery photo posting/viewing/commenting overall.
As for forum discussions I can tell you that I know several folks who post and comment quite regularly that never really visit the forums at all. So, the participation on the topics or forums probably see much less traffic I would suspect. But, you've got a good point on information sharing that takes place away from the photo galleries.
I don't think there's too much open mindedness needed. People can take or leave the actual criticism they receive, and if they want to weight it according to who it's coming from, they are more than welcome to. But the critique forums are for free and open (and civil and honest!) critique. So while it probably pays to err on the side of being gentle in your negative comments, there's nothing wrong with making them.
As with a lot of things, you also get out what you put in...
"Nice one" is a good comment to leave, but "This is a nice one because..." followed by some reasoning is better.
"This doesn't work for me" is a good comment to leave, but "This doesn't work for me because..." followed by some reasoning is better.
And when I say better, I mean better for the original poster because it give them more solid information, AND better for the person critiquing the image because it makes them think more in depth.
Tim, thank you for the compliment. Not sure how you’re looking at the image posts but I currently have 107 images posted in various galleries.
Charlie and Paul:
In my opinion, photography is an art form, and as such there are aspects of it bear discssion apart from actual images and gear. My recent thread in the Landscape Photo Forum, "Landscape Photographs-What makes them 'sing'?" was posted so that folks would really think about the landscape photography genre in hopes the comments would be an inspiration.
Secondarily, I posted the announcement of that thread in this forum because I would like to see more activity in the discussion forums.
NPN, with it's critique galleries, discussion forums, regional groups, and articles, is an enormous resource; one that the members should be proud of and utilize to the fullest extent possible.
--P
"What I’ve learned from the honest critiques of both my images posted......."
Charlie Van Tassel, I get it, ok? It's been explained in great detail. But your post does illustrate quite well my suspicion (fear actually) that this site operates under the steam of an elite few and the rest of us will all do it your way or hit the highway, so to speak. When I first came here I tried to be respectful and post some images but not make too much noise on the established group. Now I'm told the opposite, if I want more comments I need to post less and comment more. Seems backward to me but hey, it's your sandbox.
From some of the responses above it gives an appearance that to pay the fee ONLY gets one the opportunity to TRY to fit in.
And please, let's not go down the "elite" route. It is natural in any organization that those who are active particpants will get the most recognition. Look at NPN member, Albert Darmo. He has about 400 postings but over 7,000 comments! When he posts, he usually gets lots of comments since he has commented on so many posts of others.
But also keep in mind for some persons it is a big step to post an image, let alone critique someone elses. We are here to encourage and learn and help nurture the beginners as we once all were. EVERYONE deserves a comment on an image they post. Let's all do our part to keep our own ratio up and encourage each other. Please no polarization! There is enough of that in this country. Ok, I will get off my soapbox now. . .
As far as commitment goes, actively critiquing images (beyond the 5:1 suggested ratio, in my opinion) is critical and should go hand in hand with a member's expectations regarding feedback on his/her own images. The notion that an image should get "what it deserves" in terms of comments--irrespective of the participation level of the individual who posted it--is silly to me. I understand being intimidated at first, but I personally don't think there's much of a grace period.
Nor do I think we need a reminder of the 5:1 suggested ratio included at top of each gallery page. If you understand what NPN is, a reminder to post critiques is unnecessary and obtrusive. I don't mean to totally knock it as a suggestion...I just don't personally see it as a solution.
Scott - I appreciate your comments, and agree with your concept. But in practice something seems to be missing. On one hand you recognize that it may be intimidating to a new member to comment on other people's images, images by many of whom may be long time members. But on the other hand you have long time members telling new members if they expect to get any attention they need to go out and do more of the very thing that is admittedly intimidating to them. I'm sorry but that seems upside down to me. If a group is really interested in generating new and active members (and not just membership dues) it seems to me it should be the other way around, encouraging them rather than ignoring them because they haven't commented enough. I agree that's not the message you presented in your response. But it's definitely the impression left by some others in this thread.
I didn't come here to fight and I don't hope or expect to change anyone's mind about anything. I just wanted to know why it seemed so difficult to get comments. Now I know. In my mind this is art and supposed to be fun. So before I just piss everybody off I'm going to let you all go back to having yours and I'm going to do the same. But considering the number of people viewing this thread I think this subject may be of interest to more people than it was to just me."
Far from running on the efforts of an "elite few," the site depends on everyone participating for it to work. And like others have said, I've learned at least as much from thinking critically about others' images as I have from comments on my own work.
If I don't increase or continue with my making comments it will be because I disagree with that principle and not because I'm reluctant to comment.
Preston,
I totally agree. I've always found the forums and articles very helpful and informative. So although the NPN site hosts the marquee of amazing nature photos as it's cornerstone there are many folks that find the other aspects of the site as part of the overall draw. So there is a lot to be offered to those that care to use the various drop downs for navigation beyond the various galleries.
Those are good questions/comments. Some of my thoughts...
NPN is a community. It's not a group of paid critics, and there's no way to simply get more feedback/attention just by asking for it. I DO think moderators are encouraged to try to make an effort to help by commenting more with new members, and typically people are very welcoming and friendly. But it can take some time and quite a few posts and comments to sort-of find a place here.
As an analogy, though NPN is online, it's perhaps similar to being in any physical social group - say, at a party. At first you're probably a little quiet and possible a lot of folks don't talk to you. But as you become more active, you begin to be a part of more activity. And like any group, there will still be butterflies and wallflowers, and everything in between. And I think that's what drives the suggestions to participate more yourself in other work, if you also want others to participate in your work; It's not that there are strict rules or anything, but it does tend to be how social groups work.
And as stated above, there is also a mathematical element to it. Without putting in a little effort, most folks would probably post more than they comment - it seems to be human nature. If that continued, and people didn't make an effort to communicate and comment and encourage others to do the same, the site would wither.
So when someone puts in the effort to comment a lot, it's appreciated, and tends to create a better forum for everyone, and raise the comments and visibility across the board for more than just them. Again, it's a community of people, and it tends to rise and fall together.
Again, you tend to get out what you put in, in any of these kinds of things. And encouraging participation helps to avoid having a lot of folks show up who just want to post ten images, and expect 100 comments with no other participation on their part. (And yes, there have been some folks here like that on occasion... but not often.) I think people's tendency is to want that, because it's easy, and provides either validation or constructive feedback. But this site is not at all a one way street that way - and can't be, or the galleries won't work.
Two questions : 1) What would you consider embracing someone and how are new folks on NPN not being embraced? 2) What is the "other way" you mention?
Hopefully people are welcoming and encouraging. I know I've seen lots of comments for less experienced photographers on here (myself included!) that are very helpful and less negative than what some more familiar/more experienced folks would get. And plenty of greetings and welcomes and helpful tips. Are there other things that could be done? If so, maybe a thread on better introducing new members to the site would be good. Folks are generally open to new ideas too, especially if they can help!
1. Why would you think you don't have the "expertise" to make comments? The general public doesn't have that expertise, but they know what they like. That's the key, to be able to figure out WHY you like or don't like something. It's a very personal reaction, and unique to each person; that's what makes it so tough to come up with images that everyone likes. You don't need to be an expert photographer to be able figure out why you are attracted to something. Sure, there's the technical aspect, but there's plenty of people on here to help out with that.
2. Don't people realize how much time and effort it takes to make comments? What makes newcomers think that all the people with those high numbers of comments have more time than anyone else? Everybody likes to get comments back on their images, but isn't it both common sense and being considerate to realize that there's give and take on this? I mean, honestly, it seems like some people think that there are a bunch of people just sitting there, just WAITING for someone to post and image so they can comment on it. I seriously don't think that is the case We are all busy.
I think it ought to be clearly posted what the expectation is for making comments so that newcomers , and yes, it's OK to bring it up once in awhile.
As for me, I have gone back to work full time and have been traveling a lot, so I've had to use either a smart phone or a laptop (with horrible color), so my involvement has been really low for the past couple of years. Sure, I'd like to do more, but paying the bills comes first....
I guess it boils down to this, IMO you don't do a good enough job of explaining to new members that if they want anyone to comment on their work they need to go out and comment a LOT on other people's work. Again, IMO it's human nature (and quite frankly, polite) for newcomers to hold back and not jump out there commenting, especially critiquing, the established group. At some point in this discussion I had posted 15 images made 55 comments. It didn't seem to me like I was NOT contributing enough. So when I posted an image and it had 78 views and 2 comments, I asked why in this forum. Interestingly, since this forum thread it's gotten much more attention. But asking that question in this forum is the only time it's been made clear to a newcomer what all of the "old timers" seem to feel verbatim, and that is that its expected of newcomers to act counterintuitively. After making 55 comments on other people's images and posting one of my best and only getting two comments, I was faced with two choices. Leave or ask why. If I had not come here and stirred this pot I wouldn't have known all of your feelings on this and I would have left. I understand what you're saying now. I even commend you on it for encouraging newcomers to comment. But you need to advertise more. If 55 comments to 15 posts is going to garner the "unspoken disapproval of being ignored"', then you need to be more clear about what ratio does get approval. It's clear in this thread, but where else?
A few of you have indicated above that I haven't done bad here and that I've gotten encouraging comments, etc. Thats 100% true. I've had great comments, suggestions and encouragement. I only questioned the number of them. Look, I'm obviously the only person bothered by this since out of 55x views of this thread I'm the only one saying anything. So if you are all ok with things the way they are, then so am I. I don't need any more convincing. I do appreciate this group and I am learning here. And now that I know about 1 comment per 10 views (WITH a healthy comment participation) is about normal, everything's cool. I just think you could do a better job of making that clear to newcomers.
That's the key element: "human nature". Well, perhaps throwing out 'human nature' in the context of this discussion is what needs to happen.
The sooner a new person jumps in and makes comments on the images of the 'established group'**, the 'established group' will realize the new person has a strong desire to participate and to learn. While politness is certainly appreciated by everyone, jumping in and participating will also be appreciated. I do not believe that most folks here would consider that impolite.
**Who is the 'established group'? Yes, there are lots of folks here who've been around for a while (I've been here over ten years), but NPN is a dynamic community; yesterday's new person is tomorrow's 'established group' member.
I see NPN like a group of folks sitting around a campfire, so pull up a chair, we don't bite.
--P
Thanks for your time.
William Gillis
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Your comments echoed many of my sentiments as well. But more importantly thank you for sticking it out and persevering. Otherwise we would miss the body of your work. Kind regards.
Given that I'm an amateur (I'd call me a level 3 to most of you being 7+ on a 10 point scale) the biggest thing lacking from the site for me is a beginner's or Just Getting Started gallery and associated forum, with some more relaxed rules around the whole posting and critique thing. For me the galleries ARE both intimidating and seemingly somewhat hamstrung in how useful they'd be to somebody at my level, so I'd appreciate a more inviting alternative to ease into things and get up-to-speed, where there can be more of an interaction around all the steps involved in producing those final images in the current galleries.
I'm happy to be market research and answer any questions any of you have about a newcomer's impressions, as well.