An incredible climber that has done some amazing feats shows a total lack of respect by climbing Delicate Arch in Utah, MULTIPLE TIMES on a Sunday morning. Why ? Because he had become obsessed with how to climb it. He didn't use any climbing tools, but still, his total lack of respect for nature is shocking.
Don Hall originally shared this information on a different forum, but I felt compelled to share the info here as well. If you wish to email the National Park Service with your thoughts, the Arches National Park's superintendent is Laura Joss (laura_joss@nps.gov).
I sent an email to her and to the Corporate sales department of Patagonia clothing (he's one of their endorsed "Alpine Ambassadors" that work on contrat with Patagonia).
OMG! Now a bunch of other yahoos will try to do the same thing. They should be arrested and fined big time for the damage they do. Climbing tools or not his feet and hands alone have accelerated the weathering of this natural formation by creating edges for the wind and elements to wear away.
I agree he should not have climbed the arch. BUT! With you emailing Laura Joss, your just asking for her and the NP system to close the place down to everyone. They know he did it and will punish him as they need to do. Lets not all act like children and point fingers. Also lets face it, what the NP system does to these places is 1,000,000 times more damaging. Why would you not email the NP system tell them to stop what they do each and every day to our natural places.
I would bet that Dean Potter has done much more for the environment than most who are screaming at him. He broke the law punish him and let it be.
Again let me re-state, what he did was against the law punish him. However, if he get a harsher punishment that the great Fatali then I will be pissed. That man set fire to the place.
If anyone can actually explain how Dean Potter caused more alteration of Delicate Arch and its surroundings than the thousands of photographers that gather to photograph the arch each year, then I'm all ears. Until then, you need to educate yourself about climbing before casting judgement at Dean Potter and the climbing community.
... his feet and hands alone have accelerated the weathering of this natural formation by creating edges for the wind and elements to wear away.
Ed: Potters few delicate ascents (he's one of America's best and most accomplished climbers, not a hack who scratched his way up the thing) make him more responsible for damage than tens of thousands of photographers who have helped to accelerate the weathering of ALL the sandstone surrounding the arch? You're wrong on this one.
Everyone breathe slowly and deeply. This really isn't that big of a deal. I'm willing to be wrong is someone can prove me otherwise.
MG, you know I am on your side here but he broke the law. Yes some laws are not right but if this particular law were not in place, we would have many of the idiot kind trying the same thing. And having a law that says only climbers of the Dean Potter caliber can climb this area would not work. Dean Potter is not a bad guy he is a good guy but he broke the law just as if I were to not wear my seatbelt. I do not agree with the seatbelt law but If I break it I should pay the fine. I just hate the there are those little babies who are not going to shut up about this even when they have just as many faults.
The only thing he did was break the law! So, they should stick it to him just as they did Fatali.
As for the Park Service doing stupid things, they constructed a redwood deck, with concrete and all, for President Bush to stand on out in the middle of a meadow in Cades Cove (Great Smoky Mountains Nat'l Park). It rained and he never showed, go figure!
I have another thought: many 'icons' for photographers are climbed on a regular basis (the Big Two in mind are Half Dome and El Capitan in Yosemite). Climbing is not forbidden in National Parks and is one of the most common traditional uses of many Parks. Photographers don't seem to complain about other places and situations. So are certain photographers upset because Potter potentially broke the law (even the NPS doesn't know this answer yet) or are they mad because he encroached on a formation that photographers like to call their own?
And as Mr. Stovall points out, the most culpable party is the NPS, for paving Arches National Monument; converting it to a Park; and as NP's do, ushering in as many people as it can.
Mr. Lehmkuhl: posting a link to an editorial does a disservice to the topic. It is NOT news OR reporting - it's an opinion piece.
Posted by Carl Donohue on May 12, 2006 at 11:53 AM
Hey folks,
I'm curious as to how climbing something is deemed "total lack of respect for nature"?
MG wrote:
"So are certain photographers upset ....... because he encroached on a formation that photographers like to call their own? "?
Bingo? Would you like to advance to the next round, or will you take the money and enjoy your new, free steak knives?
Now a bunch of other yahoos will try to do the same thing
Why is this the most common reaction to events such as this? Technical climbing requires much more skill and experience than does operating a camera. No photographer that I know was saying "oh great, now every yahoo photographer will try to do the same thing" after Fatali committed his act at Delicate Arch (nor have we heard of even repeats of his act), yet every time there is a climber involved, this is the normal response. Where does this come from?
I'm presuming that those complaining about this incident have been to Delicate Arch. Why is it okay for you/photographers to be obsessed with Delicate Arch and help accelerate the weathering of the sandstone to/from the Delicate Arch approach (anyone who has been there can see the 'path' worn into the sandstone as well as alteration of the sandstone by the NPS to make it safer!) but the Arch itself is sacrosanct? Why is Delicate Arch special but not the other sandstone, and why is it okay for you to contribute to weathering of the area while Potter should be vilified for his few minor ascents?
Seriously, rules are in place for a reason but the main reason in cases like this is that with so many people visiting an area there has to be rules and restrictions, just the way it is. For someone to think they are above the rules of an area is supremely arrogant and elitist. If he was truely obsessed as he says, then he should just say he did and take whatever punishment NPS doles out with no whining. Whether or not he's a good climber, whether or not he showed repsect for the arch as he says, is irrelevant.
Maybe what he should have done (and perhaps did but was turned down) is apply for a commercial permit to scale the arch. The NPS routinely considers commercial permits for activities in the parks. I'm sure this one would probably have been turned down, however, because of the outcry from people who feel he would be damaging the arch. Randy
Mr. Gordon, how did I do a disservice by posting this? There's photos of Dean climbing the arch, this was posted in the Salt Lake Tribune news paper. The writer is not on staff, but you really feel this is not news? There's quotes from Dean about how obsessed he became before finally deciding he HAD to do it.
If this isn't news then I don't know what is - he clearly broke the LAW.
And asking for Laura at the NPS to prosecute this yahoo only helps confirm that nobody is above the law and if we follow the rules then the rules don't have to be changed. IF the rules change it will not be because of me posting this topic.........
John: please read again. I don't care that this topic is up for discussion and in fact am enjoying it. I do take issue with a link being provided to an editorial. THAT is not news and only serves to support your argument. It does not represent fairly all angles of the story.
John, my point is that the NPS will do what they need to do without any of us emailing her to tell them what to do. Did you send an email saying what they should do back when the place was set a fire? If not, then why now. Do not add fuel to the fire when the people your asking to do something can do something that none of us like.
It's so funny how we see climbing as ok where it's illegal but ATV's as the devil's game even when it’s legal! (I'm just using these as examples to prove a point not as an advocate) It's all about what one person or one group is interested in. I grew up on motorcycles and have raced on and offroad so I feel for those guys sometimes. Not all are bad, some really take care of the trails and many others do not. The "DO NOTS" are the ones that spoil it for everyone and that goes for climbers, photographers, mountain bikers, horse riders, etc. as well. He should’ve gotten permission or at least tried. As leftist as Patagonia is they should fire someone’s ass for promoting the climb, that is, if they did promote it.
MG, I'm sorry dude but if it wasn't for the NPS everything would but paved out there (and here)! Just think about it, 100 Million dollar vacation houses, oil wells, pit mines....ah, just lovely! I get all tingly when I think about it.
Jerry: I am not condoning what Potter did. I am simply questioning why individuals are making it a point to go after him (unless of course they ordinarily spend their time trying to persecute lawbreakers of any sort). We ALL break laws in varying degrees (have you never gone over the speed limit in your vehicle?).
The first two posts on this topic claim that Potter has a "total lack of respect for nature", and that he somehow damaged the Arch. I am simply asking for proof of either. And I'm still wondering how photographers can justify the damage they've done around Delicate Arch but Potter's one incident is so very wrong? I'm just looking for some honesty here.
I have no problem with the NPS protecting the places they do (I agree - they might be ruined otherwise). But National Park designation does not require development, paving, concessions, improved accomodations, et al. The NPS has violated the very places that it has been given the authority to protect.
Jerry makes an excellent point--we often slam the park service and national forest--myself included--but what would all of our wonderful public lands be without them?
Of course, right now the Bush Administration would love to do nothing more than privatize many public lands and commercialize the rest by selling off federal lands and outsourcing all the work. Randy
I've been to Delicate Arch - It was awesome and I hope to take my daughter there someday when she's older. Other arches have already collapsed or are on the verge of doing so now. By putting 160 lbs of weight on little cracks on the arch, they were changed - I don't know by how much, but you think nothing was altered by his multiple (not just once) climbings of the arch ?
I email my local officials and others when something happens that I feel strongly about. It's my right as an American to share how I feel with the people that make decisions. They won't close the park down because concerned citizens speak out about someone that breaks clear laws in the protected National Parks. If they try to, they'll hear from me again.......
Oh and more NEWS (not editorial) - Thanks to Dean:
http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_3802662
John: the link you provided to the latest news doesnt indicate that they plan to prosecute Potter. Moreover, the language used indicates that the NPS knew that there was a loophole in the law, and that Potter's ascent may not have been illegal.
If I'm right about the above, then it comes down to you (and others) simply disapproving of something that Potter did legally.
I still defer back to my earlier statement: photographers think they 'own' Delicate Arch.....
- - A lot of this seems to me to be nothing but how some people, in addition to Potter, seem to think just because they like doing some activity other than just photography, they can do whatever they dam well please, against the law or not. The law is the law, so what does it matter what little harm someone may do? The damage comes from how these actions invite others to do the same things, and 99% of them will not bother to take care in how they do it. Then where is the holly-than-thou justification in climbing or 4-wheeling wherever one wants to, - - no matter how lightly it is done?
- - I am reminded of one of those ancient ground drawings I have been to in the Calif desert, that you can only see from the air, but which now has permenant off-road tracks all over it from IGNORANT people who also had no respect for such places. Some comments on here do not surprise me a bit, but ingorance is still ignorance, and inconsiderate people will probably always be that way no matter what the law says.
- - For anyone here who does not like what that guy did, I'd say to email the Patagonia Co. and let them know that as long as this guy is on their payroll, you will not buy any of their products. Hit these ignorant people like Potter, who think they are above the law, where it hurts them the most, in the pocketbook. Maybe that will make them think the next time. They will probably still be just as self-centered and inconsiderate, but also a little poorer, and that's the best payback.
"For anyone here who does not like what that guy did, I'd say to email the Patagonia Co. and let them know that as long as this guy is on their payroll, you will not buy any of their products."
Yea that is good, do not support one of the most powerful companies in the environmental movement because one of their empoyees made a bad decision. COME ON!!!!!
Hey, everyone who whats to yell, do you email the NPS when they do something you think is good???
John did you email the NPS when the place was set a fire? If not, then why not?
Yea that is good, do not support one of the most powerful companies in the environmental movement because one of their empoyees made a bad decision. COME ON!!!!!
BS - - You have a point there, but for them to keep an iresponsible spoksmen does not help their cause.
That was my reason for it.
Hey, everyone who whats to yell, do you email the NPS when they do something you think is good???
- - And just when would that be? Possibly the time they allowed a logging company to go in and clear an area of fallen trees after a forest fire, but ended up having the ENTIRE old growth forest clear cut instead, while they were sitting around with their heads up their butts?
Is that one of your "good" things to write them about?
The NPS is a govt. agency and the only thing the govt. can do right is screw-up things that any 6-year old could do right.
Brent, I did not know about it being set on fire. I hope they found and fined to the fullest extent whoever did it.
It's nice that Dean made a loophole and made the NPS look bad. But hey, this happens all day long around us right ? Why complain or make comment about any of it ?? Really....
Paul, I think the NPS does a lot of things good - or at least tries to. I support them with my annual National parks Pass. Considering they have to survive under Bush's non-existent environmental policies and shrinking budget, it seems like they are doing the best they can and I will continue to support them.
You would rather have no protection at all in all of our parks ?
Potter is an 'ambassador' for Patagonia and receives some money and gear, but bashing Patagonia would be stupid and prove nothing. The idea was Potter's. Patagonia pledges a helluva lot of money each year to environmental causes (18 million since 1985). What about Canon? Or Nikon?
"- - And just when would that be? Possibly the time they allowed a logging company to go in and clear an area of fallen trees after a forest fire, but ended up having the ENTIRE old growth forest clear cut instead, while they were sitting around with their heads up their butts?
Is that one of your "good" things to write them about?
The NPS is a govt. agency and the only thing the govt. can do right is screw-up things that any 6-year old could do right. "
Paul, that was good!
My general point is there is no need in everyone jumping on the wagon pointing fingers at someone when they have already been caught. That is what a bunch of children do and we are not children right?? :) In general we only speak up when we want to bitch. Such as this case. Most will take the time to write some neg. letter instead of writing Patagonia saying "hey just wanted to let you all know YOUR GREAT for what you do! Your prices may be a bit high but I understand. Keep up the good work" :)
- - John - - I agree "somewhat" no matter how screwed up they are, they still do a few things right.
Sort of like a clock. It is always right at least twice a day.
I just have an utter contempt for politicains, and this set of them in particular.
I place them "under" the bottom of the barrel along with child molesters, rapest, murders, and theives.
Get the idea?
I don't hold greedy, self-serving, and irresponsible people to be very much higher than that,
and that is basically how I see MOST politicians.
Have you ever noticed how every politician will call themselves a Republican or a Democrate, but
NOT ONE OF THEM
you ever hear say that they are an American.
Kind of tells you something doesn't it?
- - John - - I agree "somewhat" no matter how screwed up they are, they still do a few things right.
Sort of like a clock. It is always right at least twice a day.
I just have an utter contempt for politicains, and this set of them in particular.
I place them "under" the bottom of the barrel along with child molesters, rapest, murders, and theives.
Get the idea?
I don't hold greedy, self-serving, and irresponsible people to be very much higher than that,
and that is basically how I see MOST politicians.
Have you ever noticed how every politician will call themselves a Republican or a Democrate, but
NOT ONE OF THEM
you ever hear say that they are an American.
Kind of tells you something doesn't it?
"Sure you know about Fatali setting fire to Horsehoof Arch right? "
Brent, this happened in 2000. I was a musician that didn't even notice the sunsetting at night 6 years ago. I'm very new (2.5 years) to paying attention to this amazing and beautiful world around us and trying to capture it with my camera.
"I just have an utter contempt for politicains, and this set of them in particular. "
Paul I amost agree with you - being a father I hold child molesters and rapest lower than most politicians.
- - I noticed that you didn't say, "ALL politicians!"
- If we had ANY good politicians, there wouldn't be as many child molesters on the streets to begin with. That may give you cause to re-consider where you placed them.
A little off this topic, but I wish any and all molesters were kept off the streets forever.....
Yes, there are some politicians that are doing MUCH more damage than others and our world than others.... I also believe there are some decent politicians that try to help make our world a better place for all. Nobody is perfect (including the NPS, of course) but many people are trying......
We are getting off topic now but there is a republican here in Oklahoma who has started a bill which would allow the Death Penalty to apply to Child Molesters.
Here are my 2 cents on this topic. I bet Mr. Potter is a very accomplished climber and climbing Delicate Arch is yet another demonstration of his awesome skills. However, I don't particularly see a need for the climb in the first place, other than to prove superiority and get some attention, and so it really doesn't do much for me.
Regarding showing respect - since when did respect get associated with limits imposed by existing laws and the loopholes surrounding them. You don't need the law to respect someone or their culture. Similarly you shouldn't need the law to make you respect a place and its inhabitants. You either do or you don't.
Judging from the current state of Landscape Arch, if Mr. Potter tried climbing it, we may no longer have a Landscape Arch. However, Mr. Potter would have won his Darwin Award.
So, we are to compare the impact this climber's pursuit of his obsession to that of THOUSANDS of photographers in pursuit of their obsession? No. Let's be fair: Dean Potter caused more alteration of Delicate Arch and its surroundings than each of the thousands of photographers that gather to photograph the arch each year.
Is that alteration significant? I doubt it, but let's not excuse one wild hare because of the impact of the herd of rabbits.
As someone said, NO ONE is above the law. I don't give a fig if he's an "awesome climber". WHO CARES?!?!?! How the hell is that relevant?!?!
Plain and simple, it was about his own self-glorification, without a care in the world for the resource itself. He should be charged, and he should NOT be allowed to market the photos of it. Then again, if there's idiots like those who are defending him, I guess there are idiots who will buy the photos.
Photos can cut both ways. By the same token you can say that flying a jet plane into the WTC was "illegal" but the photos help tell the world the story and can be used to both support and defame the act.
Either way, the "resource" argument is a hard one for me. Most climbers I know have better knowledge and field ethics than most random tourists. Sure there are exceptions on both sides but that's my general sense.
To me Potter's act is no worse than that of a photographer who tramples on cryptobiotic soil to get a shot (and there are many MANY more of those than rogue climbers) and a long cry from ranchers who launch herds of cattle onto sensitive habitats and supported by the very government agencies tasked with defending them. To me they are all selfish acts but if I had to pick one to fight, I'll start with the most harmful and on this list, Potter's act is at the very bottom.
Hey, no doubt there are far worse things you can do. The one thing each of those examples have in common though, Guy, are that they all put the person above the resource. You're right, I don't care how you rate that disturbance on some scale, it's all wrong.
I certainly wouldn't defend the guy just because, hey, other things are worse. Would you defend someone who assaulted a woman, just because, hey, he COULD have killed her?
And I would put it as being worse, from the standpoint of personal conduct anyway, than your rancher example. For pure ecologic impact, no, obviously it's not as severe. However, at least that misguided rancher has the backing of law and our equally misguided government. This guy KNEW what he was doing was wrong, knew it was illegal, but did it any way, just for his own personal ego and notoreity.
Terry, I agree. I wasn't defending him, just trying to add some perspective.
Also, I heard many people state that he was very careful not to damage the rock, which is probably very true for the climb up, but he rappeled down from the top and anyone who's ever rap'd off of sandstone will tell you it can't be done without the rope cutting into the rock unless you leave some protection (webbing, rapide/ring etc.) behind.
fact seems to be that he knew it was illegal and did it anyway,, then he should be fined or whtat ever the law requires,, i break speeding laws,, knowinginly,, and if i get caught,, i pay the fine,,,,if he is as fine an environmental person as some propose here,, he simply would have obeyed the law and left the structure alone,,,maybe not as enviromental as thought,,
who cares if delicate arch falls down?...seriously...
speaking for the environment and conservation, it would probably be the best thing for the area...of course, the roving icon-hordes - including the icon- addicted photographers who help fuel and fan the flames of icon lust - would just move on to the next big thrill....
from my pov, i dont really care about the arch from a photographic standpoint,i dont feel photographers own the icons,or however it was put by someone earlier, it certainly makes for good pictures of which i have a few, but to me,, its the geologic uniqueness that makes it interesting, and the other structures that have taken millions of years to create for the publics viewing wonder,,,and for one guy to take it upon himself to take the opportunity to possible cause, (even though he says he didnt, but cant really know for sure,,)damage is truly a selfish person. it doesnt matter who he works for or his past accololades,,he just diminished all that he has done prior,,so what else has he done we dont know about in his pursuit to allow climbing elsewhere,, ??/ i suspect if he were a spelunker and the NPS system quides who tell you not to touch the stalagtites and mites, he would be the first one to touch the stalatites and stalagmites, even though you are told not to because the oil from your skin can hinder there development,,,,,because he would want everyone to touch one because its a resource that is there,,,you know,, i am not sure, but i dont think its a law,, but may be, not to approach bison, your are at the very least warned,, but people do it anyway,, what would be the difference,,,,as forrest gump said, stupid is as stupid does,,,
it just seems that regardless of the so called "poor wording" as noted by the nps,,,there has to be some spirit of respect that one doesnt need to be told specfiically which arches you can and cant climb,,,,, he didnt win by climbing the thing, the park service didnt win or lose,, but the general public did lose, by having the regulations tightened, so whether your a climber, photogrpaher, hiker, or just someone who llikes to swing through the parks, and never leaving your car, you rights were just squeezed so one person could make a statment about climbing rocks,,
Posted by Ian Cameron on February 28, 2007 at 12:28 PM
Personally I'm surprised one such incident by a highly respected climber causes such wrath. I would have thought a good hard rain hail or snow storm would cause more weathering and environmental damage in a shorter period of time, than one pretty careful free climber. Let it pass, fine him if it makes you feel better, then move on. I'd love to know what naughty Michael Fatali did.
Discussion
52 replieshttp://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_3800468
An incredible climber that has done some amazing feats shows a total lack of respect by climbing Delicate Arch in Utah, MULTIPLE TIMES on a Sunday morning. Why ? Because he had become obsessed with how to climb it. He didn't use any climbing tools, but still, his total lack of respect for nature is shocking.
Don Hall originally shared this information on a different forum, but I felt compelled to share the info here as well. If you wish to email the National Park Service with your thoughts, the Arches National Park's superintendent is Laura Joss (laura_joss@nps.gov).
I sent an email to her and to the Corporate sales department of Patagonia clothing (he's one of their endorsed "Alpine Ambassadors" that work on contrat with Patagonia).
I would bet that Dean Potter has done much more for the environment than most who are screaming at him. He broke the law punish him and let it be.
Again let me re-state, what he did was against the law punish him. However, if he get a harsher punishment that the great Fatali then I will be pissed. That man set fire to the place.
B.
... his feet and hands alone have accelerated the weathering of this natural formation by creating edges for the wind and elements to wear away.
Ed: Potters few delicate ascents (he's one of America's best and most accomplished climbers, not a hack who scratched his way up the thing) make him more responsible for damage than tens of thousands of photographers who have helped to accelerate the weathering of ALL the sandstone surrounding the arch? You're wrong on this one.
Everyone breathe slowly and deeply. This really isn't that big of a deal. I'm willing to be wrong is someone can prove me otherwise.
B.
B.
As for the Park Service doing stupid things, they constructed a redwood deck, with concrete and all, for President Bush to stand on out in the middle of a meadow in Cades Cove (Great Smoky Mountains Nat'l Park). It rained and he never showed, go figure!
And as Mr. Stovall points out, the most culpable party is the NPS, for paving Arches National Monument; converting it to a Park; and as NP's do, ushering in as many people as it can.
Mr. Lehmkuhl: posting a link to an editorial does a disservice to the topic. It is NOT news OR reporting - it's an opinion piece.
I'm curious as to how climbing something is deemed "total lack of respect for nature"?
MG wrote:
"So are certain photographers upset ....... because he encroached on a formation that photographers like to call their own? "?
Bingo? Would you like to advance to the next round, or will you take the money and enjoy your new, free steak knives?
Cheers
Carl
Now a bunch of other yahoos will try to do the same thing
Why is this the most common reaction to events such as this? Technical climbing requires much more skill and experience than does operating a camera. No photographer that I know was saying "oh great, now every yahoo photographer will try to do the same thing" after Fatali committed his act at Delicate Arch (nor have we heard of even repeats of his act), yet every time there is a climber involved, this is the normal response. Where does this come from?
I'm presuming that those complaining about this incident have been to Delicate Arch. Why is it okay for you/photographers to be obsessed with Delicate Arch and help accelerate the weathering of the sandstone to/from the Delicate Arch approach (anyone who has been there can see the 'path' worn into the sandstone as well as alteration of the sandstone by the NPS to make it safer!) but the Arch itself is sacrosanct? Why is Delicate Arch special but not the other sandstone, and why is it okay for you to contribute to weathering of the area while Potter should be vilified for his few minor ascents?
Maybe what he should have done (and perhaps did but was turned down) is apply for a commercial permit to scale the arch. The NPS routinely considers commercial permits for activities in the parks. I'm sure this one would probably have been turned down, however, because of the outcry from people who feel he would be damaging the arch. Randy
If this isn't news then I don't know what is - he clearly broke the LAW.
And asking for Laura at the NPS to prosecute this yahoo only helps confirm that nobody is above the law and if we follow the rules then the rules don't have to be changed. IF the rules change it will not be because of me posting this topic.........
I have no issue with the NEWS link. That IS news.
B.
MG, I'm sorry dude but if it wasn't for the NPS everything would but paved out there (and here)! Just think about it, 100 Million dollar vacation houses, oil wells, pit mines....ah, just lovely! I get all tingly when I think about it.
The first two posts on this topic claim that Potter has a "total lack of respect for nature", and that he somehow damaged the Arch. I am simply asking for proof of either. And I'm still wondering how photographers can justify the damage they've done around Delicate Arch but Potter's one incident is so very wrong? I'm just looking for some honesty here.
I have no problem with the NPS protecting the places they do (I agree - they might be ruined otherwise). But National Park designation does not require development, paving, concessions, improved accomodations, et al. The NPS has violated the very places that it has been given the authority to protect.
Of course, right now the Bush Administration would love to do nothing more than privatize many public lands and commercialize the rest by selling off federal lands and outsourcing all the work. Randy
I email my local officials and others when something happens that I feel strongly about. It's my right as an American to share how I feel with the people that make decisions. They won't close the park down because concerned citizens speak out about someone that breaks clear laws in the protected National Parks. If they try to, they'll hear from me again.......
Oh and more NEWS (not editorial) - Thanks to Dean:
http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_3802662
If I'm right about the above, then it comes down to you (and others) simply disapproving of something that Potter did legally.
I still defer back to my earlier statement: photographers think they 'own' Delicate Arch.....
- - I am reminded of one of those ancient ground drawings I have been to in the Calif desert, that you can only see from the air, but which now has permenant off-road tracks all over it from IGNORANT people who also had no respect for such places. Some comments on here do not surprise me a bit, but ingorance is still ignorance, and inconsiderate people will probably always be that way no matter what the law says.
- - For anyone here who does not like what that guy did, I'd say to email the Patagonia Co. and let them know that as long as this guy is on their payroll, you will not buy any of their products. Hit these ignorant people like Potter, who think they are above the law, where it hurts them the most, in the pocketbook. Maybe that will make them think the next time. They will probably still be just as self-centered and inconsiderate, but also a little poorer, and that's the best payback.
Yea that is good, do not support one of the most powerful companies in the environmental movement because one of their empoyees made a bad decision. COME ON!!!!!
Hey, everyone who whats to yell, do you email the NPS when they do something you think is good???
John did you email the NPS when the place was set a fire? If not, then why not?
B.
BS - - You have a point there, but for them to keep an iresponsible spoksmen does not help their cause.
That was my reason for it.
Hey, everyone who whats to yell, do you email the NPS when they do something you think is good???
- - And just when would that be? Possibly the time they allowed a logging company to go in and clear an area of fallen trees after a forest fire, but ended up having the ENTIRE old growth forest clear cut instead, while they were sitting around with their heads up their butts?
Is that one of your "good" things to write them about?
The NPS is a govt. agency and the only thing the govt. can do right is screw-up things that any 6-year old could do right.
It's nice that Dean made a loophole and made the NPS look bad. But hey, this happens all day long around us right ? Why complain or make comment about any of it ?? Really....
Paul, I think the NPS does a lot of things good - or at least tries to. I support them with my annual National parks Pass. Considering they have to survive under Bush's non-existent environmental policies and shrinking budget, it seems like they are doing the best they can and I will continue to support them.
You would rather have no protection at all in all of our parks ?
Is that one of your "good" things to write them about?
The NPS is a govt. agency and the only thing the govt. can do right is screw-up things that any 6-year old could do right. "
Paul, that was good!
My general point is there is no need in everyone jumping on the wagon pointing fingers at someone when they have already been caught. That is what a bunch of children do and we are not children right?? :) In general we only speak up when we want to bitch. Such as this case. Most will take the time to write some neg. letter instead of writing Patagonia saying "hey just wanted to let you all know YOUR GREAT for what you do! Your prices may be a bit high but I understand. Keep up the good work" :)
B.
Sure you know about Fatali setting fire to Horsehoof Arch right?
B.
Sort of like a clock. It is always right at least twice a day.
I just have an utter contempt for politicains, and this set of them in particular.
I place them "under" the bottom of the barrel along with child molesters, rapest, murders, and theives.
Get the idea?
I don't hold greedy, self-serving, and irresponsible people to be very much higher than that,
and that is basically how I see MOST politicians.
Have you ever noticed how every politician will call themselves a Republican or a Democrate, but
NOT ONE OF THEM
you ever hear say that they are an American.
Kind of tells you something doesn't it?
Sort of like a clock. It is always right at least twice a day.
I just have an utter contempt for politicains, and this set of them in particular.
I place them "under" the bottom of the barrel along with child molesters, rapest, murders, and theives.
Get the idea?
I don't hold greedy, self-serving, and irresponsible people to be very much higher than that,
and that is basically how I see MOST politicians.
Have you ever noticed how every politician will call themselves a Republican or a Democrate, but
NOT ONE OF THEM
you ever hear say that they are an American.
Kind of tells you something doesn't it?
Brent, this happened in 2000. I was a musician that didn't even notice the sunsetting at night 6 years ago. I'm very new (2.5 years) to paying attention to this amazing and beautiful world around us and trying to capture it with my camera.
"I just have an utter contempt for politicains, and this set of them in particular. "
Paul I amost agree with you - being a father I hold child molesters and rapest lower than most politicians.
- If we had ANY good politicians, there wouldn't be as many child molesters on the streets to begin with. That may give you cause to re-consider where you placed them.
Yes, there are some politicians that are doing MUCH more damage than others and our world than others.... I also believe there are some decent politicians that try to help make our world a better place for all. Nobody is perfect (including the NPS, of course) but many people are trying......
We are getting off topic now but there is a republican here in Oklahoma who has started a bill which would allow the Death Penalty to apply to Child Molesters.
B.
Yes, please keep the discussion to the original topic.
Thanks to all!
-PB
Moderator
Regarding showing respect - since when did respect get associated with limits imposed by existing laws and the loopholes surrounding them. You don't need the law to respect someone or their culture. Similarly you shouldn't need the law to make you respect a place and its inhabitants. You either do or you don't.
Is that alteration significant? I doubt it, but let's not excuse one wild hare because of the impact of the herd of rabbits.
Pete D.
As someone said, NO ONE is above the law. I don't give a fig if he's an "awesome climber". WHO CARES?!?!?! How the hell is that relevant?!?!
Plain and simple, it was about his own self-glorification, without a care in the world for the resource itself. He should be charged, and he should NOT be allowed to market the photos of it. Then again, if there's idiots like those who are defending him, I guess there are idiots who will buy the photos.
Either way, the "resource" argument is a hard one for me. Most climbers I know have better knowledge and field ethics than most random tourists. Sure there are exceptions on both sides but that's my general sense.
To me Potter's act is no worse than that of a photographer who tramples on cryptobiotic soil to get a shot (and there are many MANY more of those than rogue climbers) and a long cry from ranchers who launch herds of cattle onto sensitive habitats and supported by the very government agencies tasked with defending them. To me they are all selfish acts but if I had to pick one to fight, I'll start with the most harmful and on this list, Potter's act is at the very bottom.
Guy
I certainly wouldn't defend the guy just because, hey, other things are worse. Would you defend someone who assaulted a woman, just because, hey, he COULD have killed her?
And I would put it as being worse, from the standpoint of personal conduct anyway, than your rancher example. For pure ecologic impact, no, obviously it's not as severe. However, at least that misguided rancher has the backing of law and our equally misguided government. This guy KNEW what he was doing was wrong, knew it was illegal, but did it any way, just for his own personal ego and notoreity.
Also, I heard many people state that he was very careful not to damage the rock, which is probably very true for the climb up, but he rappeled down from the top and anyone who's ever rap'd off of sandstone will tell you it can't be done without the rope cutting into the rock unless you leave some protection (webbing, rapide/ring etc.) behind.
Guy
speaking for the environment and conservation, it would probably be the best thing for the area...of course, the roving icon-hordes - including the icon- addicted photographers who help fuel and fan the flames of icon lust - would just move on to the next big thrill....
Guy
Told you...
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3895422
Guy
it just seems that regardless of the so called "poor wording" as noted by the nps,,,there has to be some spirit of respect that one doesnt need to be told specfiically which arches you can and cant climb,,,,, he didnt win by climbing the thing, the park service didnt win or lose,, but the general public did lose, by having the regulations tightened, so whether your a climber, photogrpaher, hiker, or just someone who llikes to swing through the parks, and never leaving your car, you rights were just squeezed so one person could make a statment about climbing rocks,,