Posted by Jeff Lewis on February 7, 2013 at 3:06 AM
Would it be possible (or desirable) to add a Beginner's or Just Getting Started gallery and forum to the site?
I'm currently a trial member trying to see if this site could be a good resource for me to try and get my wildlife photography to the next level, but it's hard for me to see how the current model of just jumping into the deep end of the existing galleries is an efficient way for that to happen.
The galleries seem to be set up for masters and journeymen of the craft to either just share excellent images or mostly talk about that last 10-15% of getting their pictures perfect, and it's not clear to me how my jumping in there trying to figure out that middle 40% that I'm still fuzzy on can be good for either of us.
Making up an arbitrary 10 level "photography expertise" scale I'd put myself at a 3, but the bulk of the images and interactions in the current galleries I'd put in the 7 and up range. My hope and plan is to get myself to a 7, it just seems like that would work better at this site if you had a gallery/forum where anyone interested could interact around all the steps that go into producing those excellent final images you all are putting up.
Posted by Tim Butler on February 7, 2013 at 7:17 AM
Jeff, as a fairly new member myself and as someone who recently posted in this forum causing a very informative and rousing discussion on new users, comments, posting, learning, etc. One discussion is in here titled "Sitting on Hands" I think it was. You might want to look that over a little bit. But the Cliff Notes version is that this group of photographers, while EXTREMELY talented, are genuinely interested in furthering the quality of EVERYONE'S work. So if I could give you one piece of advice it would be, "Jump in!"......just my 2 cents worth.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 7, 2013 at 7:47 AM
Jeff, I would also make use of the email icon shown with each post. Pick a few members who you want feedback from, inform them of your post (be specific - post title and gallery it is posted in) and ask for their feedback!
I know "jumping in there" can seem overwhelming but it's been my experience that you just need to do it. When I first registered I looked at the photography on here as light years ahead of my own but I posted my first pic in hopes of getting good feedback. Before I knew what had happened, the photo was selected for pic of the week for that gallery. If you are worried that people might critique rather harshly you will find that most of the people that consistently comment on photos are sympathetic to beginners. Happy posting!
Posted by scott lanz on February 7, 2013 at 9:10 AM
Jeff, your suggestion is a good one, and quite understandable, but the question I have is where would we draw the "Beginner" line? Experience, if that is the standard, runs the gamut here from early beginner to medium beginner to advanced beginer to beginner advanced, to ... well, you get the idea. Plus, would we need "Beginner" levels for each gallery because one can be a beginner, or at least not advanced, however that is defined, in one genre while more experienced in another? Then we get into the whole experience as a photographer vs. processing skill/experience conundrum. I think the line drawing would get problematic. So, I agree with everyone else: just jump in and if you want to note that your a beginner looking for help, this will assist people in commenting and making appropriate suggestions on how to improve. When you post an image, if you include some image capture and processing data (i.e., camera, lens, fstop, ss, focal length, iso, cropping, handheld vs tripod, etc), that will help as well.
I agree with Scott's comments, especially regarding adding some tech info. Also, you might want to ask questions that will guide the comments. For example, you could ask, 'What do you think of this composition?' , or 'Does this image have enough contrast, or is it too contrasty?'.
As others have suggested, you just have to jump in. POst images and write comments on those of others. And, above all, have fun!
--P
Posted by Richard Ditch on February 7, 2013 at 11:24 AM
Jeff initially commented in the "Sitting on Hands" thread that you mention, so I know he is familiar with that. When I saw Jeff's comment there I suggested that he start a new thread with his post so it wouldn't get buried in an older topic and would generate a new discussion on this topic.
I did that because I've thought about the issue at times in the past. I realize that the galleries operate almost on a two tier basis, with an established group of seasoned posters with consistently good images, and others without the same experience who are interested but not yet as accomplished.
I think there's merit in Jeff's proposal of a Beginner's Gallery, although I recognize that there are a lot of open questions about how it would operate. Some of those have already been pointed out. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the idea and consider the merits.
Benefits
A Beginner's Gallery would reduce the intimidation factor - novice photographers wouldn't feel they were competing with accomplished photographers and had to meet very high standards.
There'd be little doubt about the images posted as coming from those with less experience and needing some advice and guidance. Commenters would likely find it easier to comment appropriately.
There'd probably be less expectation that beginners immediately reach a 5:1 or higher comment: post ratio.
Issues
Who determines Beginner status?
Who determines when someone has progressed beyond Beginner status and should be posting in established galleries?
Would enough experienced photographers visit the Beginners Gallery and comment to make it work?
Would there be a need for more than one Beginner's Gallery to segregate subject matter?
I hope other people here will give this all some thought rather than point Jeff to how we've operated in the past.
Posted by Jim DeWitt on February 7, 2013 at 4:21 PM
Most of the folks posting to NPN started where Jeff is now. And working up the nerve to post the first photo is undeniably hard. But I think it would be a mistake to create a Beginners' Photo Critique Forum.
First, I'd worry about getting the kind of comments that are helpful. Those tend to come from experienced photographers. And I'm not sure that those kinds of photographers would visit a beginner's forum.
Second, a big part of the learning comes from critiquing the photos of others. Hanging out in a Beginners' Forum isn't going to give the kind of experience that is as useful.
Third, if the issue is worry that your images aren't as good, the solution is to submit them to the best possible critiquing and comments. That process can be painful. Believe me, I know. But this is as friendly and supportive a web site as I've encountered. Jim and Donna do everything possible to make the process as gentle as criticism can be.
So I urge Jeff and folks in his position to take the chance, post their work and see what happens.
Jeff, As a relative newbie I had the same reservations as you do. It took me a year after looking at postings in the various galleries to join NPN and then begin posting images plus offer comments. My experience has been nothing but the best and I find the comments and critique's fair. So jump in and see what happens. It was one of the best decisions I have made in photography.
William Gillis
Posted by Jeff Lewis on February 7, 2013 at 5:48 PM
Okay, fair enough everyone, but let me try again in a revised way. I think I bollixed things up by leading off with one possible solution to a list of site problems and inefficiencies (for me at least) I'm building in my head as I read forum postings, leave a few photo comments, and work on some of my photos for eventual posting. Clearly the idea of a Beginner's Forum is a charged topic for you guys and it would be much better if I just brought up the various individual problems or lacks as I see them and if they get any traction that they're actually problems somebody can worry about possible solutions at that time.
Also, I know absolutely nothing about this site, for all I know there are no technical resources or a monetary or personal incentive to make any changes at all, in which case conversations about that are moot, in which case please let me know
Also also, just to clarify, I'm not actually on the fence about joining the site, it's clearly going to be a huge resource for me and it will work for me personally as is. In fact, already, purely through the exercise of looking at some of my photos and going through the process of thinking "okay, you're going to post this in front of a bunch of real photographers, what do I need to do?" I've worked on a couple and made them ridiculously better already over the "let me post these to Facebook so my friends can see what I'm spending my time doing" versions. I might already need to bump myself from a 3 to a 4
I need to run off but I'll post something later about specific things I'm wondering about, thanks for all the comments and encouragement,
Jeff
I was in your exact situation 5 years ago, Jeff. I've found that everyone on here was encouraging and thoughtful when pointing out things I could have done differently in taking a shot, composing it, processing it, etc. No one expects your first post to be perfection. Just jump in... yes, right into the deep end... and watch how quickly your photography will improve when you pay attention to the critiques. Mine did, by leaps and bounds. And I actually now know when I take a GOOD image!
Posted by Brian Gatlin on February 8, 2013 at 10:17 AM
Jeff, I agree with a lot of the thoughts expressed here. People have complained previously about how a lot of people only post/comment in one gallery, and segregating beginners into their own gallery might reduce the input they receive from more experienced photographers, which they need to advance their skills. Personally I post/comment only in the avian galleries, and if a beginner's gallery was all genres mixed, I'd have to sort through to find only the avian photos, since I don't really feel competent commenting on the others. I would personally try to comment on those avian beginners, to repay what I gained here as a beginner myself, but I wonder how many others would do it regularly.
That said, I recognize what a lot of people are saying about how challenging and intimidating it can be getting started here. I remember my first couple posts didn't draw much response, so I was discouraged and didn't post again for months. So I do think that we could do a better job welcoming new members and giving them guidance on what to expect and how to get the most out of the site.
Everyone here was a beginner once. It puts a little pressure on a beginner to do the work and to get good fast when you're posting along side those with more experience. It's also a good way to separate those that are serious from those beginnners that aren't so. It doesn't take long if you are open to critique and then go back and do the work. Once you've been doing this for a while one of the rewards is to watch the beginners get better. If you are over in the beginner's gallery I'm not sure how many of us would make it over there to check on you.
" People have complained previously about how a lot of people only post/comment in one gallery, and segregating beginners into their own gallery might reduce the input they receive from more experienced photographers, which they need to advance their skills."
I mostly comment in the landscape gallery because that's where my main interest lies. I do peruse the other galleries so that I can see what others are doing. I believe that this is the case with many others, here. NPN is a large site, with many critique galleries, informational forums and pages, and regional group forums. Given this, I think it's not realistic to expect folks to post/ comment outside their area(s) of interest due primarily to the amount of time such activitiy would consume.
In light of this, and also in reference to the second part of Charlie's statement, I agree that segregating beginners would not work well for the reason he cited.
By way of an example, here's the way I see NPN...
I am a guitar player and participate in jams on occassion. The players sit in concentric circles. The most experienced players are on the inner-most circle, and the lesser experienced players are in the next one, and so on. No one is excluded; everyone plays. As the players develop their skills, they move to the inner circles as their confidence grows. Those on the inner circle provide encouragement and inspiration for the less-skilled players, and the cycle continues. I think this is a good model, and one that should be continued.
--P
Posted by Ken Smith on February 8, 2013 at 3:36 PM
My objective as a member: First, participate to enhance the artistic quality of my photos...a measure of artistic quality is based on feedback from ...(1) Viewers ...(ie...no. of views and quality of comments) (2) Me... how do I filter feedback...and create my own 'voice'.
Second objective: Participate with critiques and encouragement of others. Many members share this journey with me to improve. I need to actively give feedback with hints and helps to be a responsible community member (online).
Without 'beginners' eager to learn and receive feedback...and eager to give a fresh viewpoint in your critiques...then we are doomed...this place would go stale in a hurry.
New blood is vital ... jump in...NOW.
Start with piling up critiques even if you would rather not submit a photo...yet. Photo-taking is honed by analysis and clear writing. Good critique-writing achieves secondary benefits. I also believe that it is easier to communicate what makes another's photo zing...or fall-flat....Easier than composing a successful photo.
A segregated 'beginners' tier has no place in this journey. We are all in the pool with similar objectives.
Discussion
14 repliesI'm currently a trial member trying to see if this site could be a good resource for me to try and get my wildlife photography to the next level, but it's hard for me to see how the current model of just jumping into the deep end of the existing galleries is an efficient way for that to happen.
The galleries seem to be set up for masters and journeymen of the craft to either just share excellent images or mostly talk about that last 10-15% of getting their pictures perfect, and it's not clear to me how my jumping in there trying to figure out that middle 40% that I'm still fuzzy on can be good for either of us.
Making up an arbitrary 10 level "photography expertise" scale I'd put myself at a 3, but the bulk of the images and interactions in the current galleries I'd put in the 7 and up range. My hope and plan is to get myself to a 7, it just seems like that would work better at this site if you had a gallery/forum where anyone interested could interact around all the steps that go into producing those excellent final images you all are putting up.
I agree with Scott's comments, especially regarding adding some tech info. Also, you might want to ask questions that will guide the comments. For example, you could ask, 'What do you think of this composition?' , or 'Does this image have enough contrast, or is it too contrasty?'.
As others have suggested, you just have to jump in. POst images and write comments on those of others. And, above all, have fun!
--P
I did that because I've thought about the issue at times in the past. I realize that the galleries operate almost on a two tier basis, with an established group of seasoned posters with consistently good images, and others without the same experience who are interested but not yet as accomplished.
I think there's merit in Jeff's proposal of a Beginner's Gallery, although I recognize that there are a lot of open questions about how it would operate. Some of those have already been pointed out. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the idea and consider the merits.
Benefits
A Beginner's Gallery would reduce the intimidation factor - novice photographers wouldn't feel they were competing with accomplished photographers and had to meet very high standards.
There'd be little doubt about the images posted as coming from those with less experience and needing some advice and guidance. Commenters would likely find it easier to comment appropriately.
There'd probably be less expectation that beginners immediately reach a 5:1 or higher comment: post ratio.
Issues
Who determines Beginner status?
Who determines when someone has progressed beyond Beginner status and should be posting in established galleries?
Would enough experienced photographers visit the Beginners Gallery and comment to make it work?
Would there be a need for more than one Beginner's Gallery to segregate subject matter?
I hope other people here will give this all some thought rather than point Jeff to how we've operated in the past.
First, I'd worry about getting the kind of comments that are helpful. Those tend to come from experienced photographers. And I'm not sure that those kinds of photographers would visit a beginner's forum.
Second, a big part of the learning comes from critiquing the photos of others. Hanging out in a Beginners' Forum isn't going to give the kind of experience that is as useful.
Third, if the issue is worry that your images aren't as good, the solution is to submit them to the best possible critiquing and comments. That process can be painful. Believe me, I know. But this is as friendly and supportive a web site as I've encountered. Jim and Donna do everything possible to make the process as gentle as criticism can be.
So I urge Jeff and folks in his position to take the chance, post their work and see what happens.
William Gillis
Also, I know absolutely nothing about this site, for all I know there are no technical resources or a monetary or personal incentive to make any changes at all, in which case conversations about that are moot, in which case please let me know
Also also, just to clarify, I'm not actually on the fence about joining the site, it's clearly going to be a huge resource for me and it will work for me personally as is. In fact, already, purely through the exercise of looking at some of my photos and going through the process of thinking "okay, you're going to post this in front of a bunch of real photographers, what do I need to do?" I've worked on a couple and made them ridiculously better already over the "let me post these to Facebook so my friends can see what I'm spending my time doing" versions. I might already need to bump myself from a 3 to a 4
I need to run off but I'll post something later about specific things I'm wondering about, thanks for all the comments and encouragement,
Jeff
That said, I recognize what a lot of people are saying about how challenging and intimidating it can be getting started here. I remember my first couple posts didn't draw much response, so I was discouraged and didn't post again for months. So I do think that we could do a better job welcoming new members and giving them guidance on what to expect and how to get the most out of the site.
I mostly comment in the landscape gallery because that's where my main interest lies. I do peruse the other galleries so that I can see what others are doing. I believe that this is the case with many others, here. NPN is a large site, with many critique galleries, informational forums and pages, and regional group forums. Given this, I think it's not realistic to expect folks to post/ comment outside their area(s) of interest due primarily to the amount of time such activitiy would consume.
In light of this, and also in reference to the second part of Charlie's statement, I agree that segregating beginners would not work well for the reason he cited.
By way of an example, here's the way I see NPN...
I am a guitar player and participate in jams on occassion. The players sit in concentric circles. The most experienced players are on the inner-most circle, and the lesser experienced players are in the next one, and so on. No one is excluded; everyone plays. As the players develop their skills, they move to the inner circles as their confidence grows. Those on the inner circle provide encouragement and inspiration for the less-skilled players, and the cycle continues. I think this is a good model, and one that should be continued.
--P
Second objective: Participate with critiques and encouragement of others. Many members share this journey with me to improve. I need to actively give feedback with hints and helps to be a responsible community member (online).
Without 'beginners' eager to learn and receive feedback...and eager to give a fresh viewpoint in your critiques...then we are doomed...this place would go stale in a hurry.
New blood is vital ... jump in...NOW.
Start with piling up critiques even if you would rather not submit a photo...yet. Photo-taking is honed by analysis and clear writing. Good critique-writing achieves secondary benefits. I also believe that it is easier to communicate what makes another's photo zing...or fall-flat....Easier than composing a successful photo.
A segregated 'beginners' tier has no place in this journey. We are all in the pool with similar objectives.
My 2 cents.