I am having a "printing" problem and was hoping to get some assistance. Here is the issue...I recently started using Bay Photo Lab to have my large prints made. I received several prints back from them and they were all much darker than they should have been and had a red color cast. I called Bay Photo and they suggested that I lower the brightness of my monitor to match the prints that I received (which were too dark). This way, I would have the correct brightness setting for future prints. I did this, and I had to reduce my monitor brightness down to 30%, which seemed really low to me. Regarding the red color cast, they told me that I should request "color correction" be done to my images when I place an order. I didn't request the color correction service with my first batch of prints because I didn't want anyone messing with my image colors. However, I am certainly open to having color correction done if this is the norm among professional photographers. I am new to sending my work to a lab for printing, as I always did my own printing in the past. So, i guess my two questions are..
1. What do folks have their monitor brightness set at?
2. Do you order "color correction" when having prints done by a professional lab?
thanks much!!
Natalie
Posted by Keith Bauer on February 20, 2013 at 8:59 AM
The very first thing you should do is buy a hardware color calibration puck and software for your computer. Calibrate your monitor. Without that level of calibration, you are just guessing at brightness and calibration. Every monitor is different.
Look for solutions from X-rite.
Posted by David Bostedo on February 20, 2013 at 8:59 AM
Natalie - One very important question : Do you calibrate your monitor? (i.e. attach a calibration device and let it adjust the colors and brightness settings to a standard point). If not, it would be very common for prints to not match the screen. Calibration will set your monitor to a standard (or close to it) that others use (including Bay Photo), so that what you see and what they see should be close to the same. Otherwise, what you see could be anywhere from perfect to drastically different.
Plus, if your monitor isn't calibrated, and you are performing actions in Photoshop or other software, you're making changes based on the nearly random variation on your particular monitor. So, for example, if you think a photo is too warm on your monitor, it could actually print out as too cool when you get it printed.
As far as having the print company color correct, you could do that, and you'll get whatever their interpretation of the color is. Adding that choice WON'T necessarily make it match your screen.
I'd say the vast majority of photographers don't ever let anyone color correct, preferring to have a well calibrated monitor, good color managed workflow, and some testing to match prints.
On the brightness issue in particular, prints too dark is probably the #1 issue people have. Most monitors are MUCH brighter than prints by default, since prints don't emit light. Going down to 30% is not unusual - but if you calibrate, the calibration could set a good level by actually measuring the brightness. There is no standard brightness level to set manually, because monitors vary even within the same model.
thank you very much for your responses! I do calibrate my monitor, which is why the problem that I'm having is so baffling. I use the Eye One system by X-Rite.
When you print at home, do your prints fairly closely match what you see on the screen?
Were the prints you had made by Bay Photo printed on the same paper you use at home?
The reason I ask is that if your prints match at home, and Bay Photo is using the same paper, the issue could be the printer profile being used by Bay Photo. This leads to my suggestion.
Ask Bay Photo if they can provide you with their printer profile for the paper they are using to print your images. If they do, install the profile on your computer so that Photo Shop can see it. You can then soft proof with their profile. Now, soft proofing is not perfect, but it will get you close.
Personally, when I have a bureau make prints for me, I have them send me a proof print, or have them make a small print. Once I have this in hand, I can adjust my image file as needed. Only then will I send the master print file for final printing.
As David points out, most monitors are very bright, and also have very high contrast ratios. They can also have white points that are often very high. Any, or all of these settings will impact your workflow. If your calibration software allows you set these parameters by creating a calibration target, that's the place to start. I give an example below that may be of help.
***Gamma--2.2
***White Point--6506K (D65) or 6500K
***Brightness--110 Cd/m^2
***Contrast Ratio--200
These values are a good starting point, but you will likely have to tweak the brightness and contrast ratio, while keeping the gamma at 2.2 and white point at 6500K.
Much has been written (and discussed) about color management and the 'color managed workflow'. There are so many variables that it is not an easy, or one-size-fits-all scenario.
I hope some of this is helpful.
--P
Posted by Mark Stahlke on February 20, 2013 at 12:51 PM
I had problems with prints too dark when I started doing my own prints. Finally, I set the brightness of my monitor to match paper white of my favorite paper (Moab Entrada) in average room light. It's quite a bit lower than the recommended 110 Cd/m^2 but I get a very good prints without wasting ink and paper doing a lot of proof prints.
For the record, I'm using an Apple Cinema-HD monitor.
Posted by John Mumaw on February 20, 2013 at 3:17 PM
I agree with Preston and use very similar settings, but some calibration software does not incorporate Brightness settings.
In that case, you'll have to adjust the monitor to match the prints. Many (if not most) monitors ship from the factory way too bright, appealing to typical users rather than photographers. In time, you'll grow used to the dimmer monitor.
Posted by Brad Mangas on February 20, 2013 at 8:09 PM
I haven't the others reply but here is what I know. You need a "quality" wide color gamut monitor and calibration hardware and software. Here is what I use and once I started using this monitor and calibration software/hardware my prints from my chosen lab are dead on accurate in both color and brightness. Remember "lumens" besides color are part of the calibration process as well.
It's not enough to just lower the brightness of your monitor there is more to it than that to achieve accurate prints. You need to "match" the brightness of the monitor to the brightness of the brightness of the print.
Anyway without getting all geeky here this is what I would recommend for a high quality moderately priced monitor & calibration setup. NEC Spectraview
I heartily second the wide gamut NEC monitors and the Spectraview software and colorimeter. Although my monitor is a different NEC model, it still is capable of hardware calibration, as well as the creation of a monitor profile via the software. In fact, the settings I posted above are directly from one of my 'calibration targets' in SpectraView.
The system I have have wasn't inexpensive, but it's been cost effective in terms of savings on ink and paper, as well as reducing the frustration level to basically nil.
--P
Posted by Jess Williams on February 22, 2013 at 11:14 AM
This is a total newbie question...
If you calibrate your monitor and adjust your brightness down (30% seems so dim!) then how do your photos appear on the "average" user's monitor? Wouldn't they be excessively bright? Do you have to make a different web-version of your photo soot looks correct on the average Joe's monitor? Or maybe I a missing something here.
Jess
"If you calibrate your monitor and adjust your brightness down (30% seems so dim!) then how do your photos appear on the "average" user's monitor? Wouldn't they be excessively bright?"
Short answer: Maybe. They could appear to be too bright, too contrasty, not enough contrast, under or over-saturated, etc.. There are simply too many variables.
If you are printing, you want your screen and print to match as closely as possible. So, if that means reduced monitor luminance, then that's what you've got to do. As has been mentiond, most monitors come from the factory with very high luminance and contrast values--the thinking being you'll be watching movies, rather than looking at creative photography images. This makes it difficult for those of use who post such images to the Web.
Theoretically, you could create two different monitor profiles: One for printing, and another for web images. You would then have to switch profiles via your operating system before making adjustments in your image editor. It's not optimal, but will work.
--P
Posted by Jess Williams on February 22, 2013 at 1:17 PM
Thanks, Preston. This is an interesting topic that I will have to research!
Posted by David Bostedo on February 22, 2013 at 5:42 PM
As has been mentiond, most monitors come from the factory with very high luminance and contrast values--the thinking being you'll be watching movies, rather than looking at creative photography images.
I'd say that a little differently Preston... I think it's more that, without thinking about it and developing some realization of why super bright, super saturated, and super contrasty isn't always good, those things will simply sell more monitors.
Watching movies would likely benefit from some amount of calibration too; Movie makers are also pretty obsessive about color and brightness and contrast. Plus, most people, even if they were to calibrate for movie watching, don't care too match prints. More people do seem to care at least a little bit about not having garish colors or properties on their televisions (thought still not a lot), but that doesn't seem to always translate to monitors.
David, I think you put that nicely. I agree that having at least a minimal calibration, even if it's adjusting color, brightness and contrast through the OS or the video driver will be of benefit. Most folks are not going to be willing, or able, to spend upwards from $200 for a colorimeter and software.
I just received a new Puget Systems laptop. My old Monaco Optix XR is not compatible with Win7-64 bit, and I need to research whether or not I can use my current SpectraView software and colorimeter to calibrate the laptop's screen. If not, I'll be forced to either purchase yet another tool, or do the best I can with the built-in drivers.
Honestly, it's a never-ending pain in the arse, this color management thing.
Discussion
13 repliesI am having a "printing" problem and was hoping to get some assistance. Here is the issue...I recently started using Bay Photo Lab to have my large prints made. I received several prints back from them and they were all much darker than they should have been and had a red color cast. I called Bay Photo and they suggested that I lower the brightness of my monitor to match the prints that I received (which were too dark). This way, I would have the correct brightness setting for future prints. I did this, and I had to reduce my monitor brightness down to 30%, which seemed really low to me. Regarding the red color cast, they told me that I should request "color correction" be done to my images when I place an order. I didn't request the color correction service with my first batch of prints because I didn't want anyone messing with my image colors. However, I am certainly open to having color correction done if this is the norm among professional photographers. I am new to sending my work to a lab for printing, as I always did my own printing in the past. So, i guess my two questions are..
1. What do folks have their monitor brightness set at?
2. Do you order "color correction" when having prints done by a professional lab?
thanks much!!
Natalie
Look for solutions from X-rite.
Plus, if your monitor isn't calibrated, and you are performing actions in Photoshop or other software, you're making changes based on the nearly random variation on your particular monitor. So, for example, if you think a photo is too warm on your monitor, it could actually print out as too cool when you get it printed.
As far as having the print company color correct, you could do that, and you'll get whatever their interpretation of the color is. Adding that choice WON'T necessarily make it match your screen.
I'd say the vast majority of photographers don't ever let anyone color correct, preferring to have a well calibrated monitor, good color managed workflow, and some testing to match prints.
On the brightness issue in particular, prints too dark is probably the #1 issue people have. Most monitors are MUCH brighter than prints by default, since prints don't emit light. Going down to 30% is not unusual - but if you calibrate, the calibration could set a good level by actually measuring the brightness. There is no standard brightness level to set manually, because monitors vary even within the same model.
thank you very much for your responses! I do calibrate my monitor, which is why the problem that I'm having is so baffling. I use the Eye One system by X-Rite.
Best,
Natalie
I have a couple of questions...
When you print at home, do your prints fairly closely match what you see on the screen?
Were the prints you had made by Bay Photo printed on the same paper you use at home?
The reason I ask is that if your prints match at home, and Bay Photo is using the same paper, the issue could be the printer profile being used by Bay Photo. This leads to my suggestion.
Ask Bay Photo if they can provide you with their printer profile for the paper they are using to print your images. If they do, install the profile on your computer so that Photo Shop can see it. You can then soft proof with their profile. Now, soft proofing is not perfect, but it will get you close.
Personally, when I have a bureau make prints for me, I have them send me a proof print, or have them make a small print. Once I have this in hand, I can adjust my image file as needed. Only then will I send the master print file for final printing.
As David points out, most monitors are very bright, and also have very high contrast ratios. They can also have white points that are often very high. Any, or all of these settings will impact your workflow. If your calibration software allows you set these parameters by creating a calibration target, that's the place to start. I give an example below that may be of help.
***Gamma--2.2
***White Point--6506K (D65) or 6500K
***Brightness--110 Cd/m^2
***Contrast Ratio--200
These values are a good starting point, but you will likely have to tweak the brightness and contrast ratio, while keeping the gamma at 2.2 and white point at 6500K.
Much has been written (and discussed) about color management and the 'color managed workflow'. There are so many variables that it is not an easy, or one-size-fits-all scenario.
I hope some of this is helpful.
--P
For the record, I'm using an Apple Cinema-HD monitor.
In that case, you'll have to adjust the monitor to match the prints. Many (if not most) monitors ship from the factory way too bright, appealing to typical users rather than photographers. In time, you'll grow used to the dimmer monitor.
It's not enough to just lower the brightness of your monitor there is more to it than that to achieve accurate prints. You need to "match" the brightness of the monitor to the brightness of the brightness of the print.
Anyway without getting all geeky here this is what I would recommend for a high quality moderately priced monitor & calibration setup.
NEC Spectraview
I heartily second the wide gamut NEC monitors and the Spectraview software and colorimeter. Although my monitor is a different NEC model, it still is capable of hardware calibration, as well as the creation of a monitor profile via the software. In fact, the settings I posted above are directly from one of my 'calibration targets' in SpectraView.
The system I have have wasn't inexpensive, but it's been cost effective in terms of savings on ink and paper, as well as reducing the frustration level to basically nil.
--P
If you calibrate your monitor and adjust your brightness down (30% seems so dim!) then how do your photos appear on the "average" user's monitor? Wouldn't they be excessively bright? Do you have to make a different web-version of your photo soot looks correct on the average Joe's monitor? Or maybe I a missing something here.
Jess
Short answer: Maybe. They could appear to be too bright, too contrasty, not enough contrast, under or over-saturated, etc.. There are simply too many variables.
If you are printing, you want your screen and print to match as closely as possible. So, if that means reduced monitor luminance, then that's what you've got to do. As has been mentiond, most monitors come from the factory with very high luminance and contrast values--the thinking being you'll be watching movies, rather than looking at creative photography images. This makes it difficult for those of use who post such images to the Web.
Theoretically, you could create two different monitor profiles: One for printing, and another for web images. You would then have to switch profiles via your operating system before making adjustments in your image editor. It's not optimal, but will work.
--P
I'd say that a little differently Preston... I think it's more that, without thinking about it and developing some realization of why super bright, super saturated, and super contrasty isn't always good, those things will simply sell more monitors.
Watching movies would likely benefit from some amount of calibration too; Movie makers are also pretty obsessive about color and brightness and contrast. Plus, most people, even if they were to calibrate for movie watching, don't care too match prints. More people do seem to care at least a little bit about not having garish colors or properties on their televisions (thought still not a lot), but that doesn't seem to always translate to monitors.
I just received a new Puget Systems laptop. My old Monaco Optix XR is not compatible with Win7-64 bit, and I need to research whether or not I can use my current SpectraView software and colorimeter to calibrate the laptop's screen. If not, I'll be forced to either purchase yet another tool, or do the best I can with the built-in drivers.
Honestly, it's a never-ending pain in the arse, this color management thing.
--P