OT: South Coyote Buttes daily lottery?

Ok, too much time lately spend behind a computer processing images: I need to get out!
With a week's vacation next week, I am potentially thinking about a trip to Natural Bridges and the Cedar Mesa area. However, being somewhat close, I was pondering an attempt at the daily permits for North and South Coyote Buttes. I realize my odds for North are slim, but what about South Coyote Buttes this time of year? White Pocket may be another option, but I will have to see how well my Subaru Forester will do off-road before committing to that adventure.

I've been to the lottery 5 times at all different times of the year and every time after the North lottery there were more South permits than people who wanted them. You have better odds on weekdays but still a lot of people can be there. Last November, for a Tuesday permit, there were around 80 people for the North lottery. We were lucky enough to get permits, and after everyone left there were still permits available for the South.

That's quite encouraging, Scott...thanks. I suspect to increase my slim odds for North, I will plan applying during the week. Fortunately, I have flexibility in my schedule. I was somewhat concerned since the online scheduling has no permits for South until July.

Another way to increase your chances, if you are going to be there multiple days, is to go in consecutive days, I believe they give you an extra ball for every day you go in. So going in 3 straight days gives you 3 chances in the lottery instead of one. Might want to verify they still do that.

I think what happens with the online permits sometimes is they get reserved and then people don't come in to pick up the permits and there are extra available. The one time I went to the South, I went to the lottery for the North, got the permit for the next day, and then asked the ranger and there were permits available for the South that day, so we got to go to both on consecutive days.

Do note that the Coyote Butte permits are no longer available at the Paria field ranger station,
but at the BLM office in Kanab now.
Also note that if you show up on Friday, you'll have a shot at both Saturday and Sunday permits.
And finally, your Subaru Forester will not make it to (and especially from) the White Pocket! It's been a long dry spell in those parts and you may even struggle with reaching South Coyote Buttes. Be especially prepared for getting stuck in deep sand (tow rope, a shovel, a method to re-inflate your tires, etc.).

Thanks for the info, John, I appreciate your advice. I have all the safety equipment, but I would rather enjoy my time than digging myself out. I will call the rec planner to get a better sense of road conditions into South Coyote Buttes.

Great info.. Someday I will get in on that area also. And I have seen the same info on getting into White Pocket. Going in June and will be in an FJ and I hope we wont have to shovel.

John, I've taken my FJ to White Pocket and had no problem at all, even on the deep sand hill.

Ken, from what I've been told by the BLM, the visitor center in Kanab is open 365 days so they draw for the next day only, weekends included. They no longer offer bonus balls for not drawing previous days. The drawing for SCB is held after NCB.

http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/arolrsmain/paria/coyote_buttes/permits.html

Walk-in permit procedures:

For Coyote Buttes North (The Wave), be at the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument Visitor Center in Kanab, Utah (745 E. Highway 89 in Kanab Utah across from Walkers gas station and Wendy’s restaurant) from 8:30-9 a.m. Mountain Standard Time -Utah- (9am Daylight Savings Time in summer) to submit your application. For permits to Coyote Buttes South, be at the same location and submit your application between 9:30-10:00 a.m. The lotteries for Coyote Buttes North and Coyote Buttes South will run at 9 a.m. and 10 a.m., respectively.
Walk-in permits must be paid with either cash or by checks. No credit cards can be accepted.
If there are 10 persons or less seeking permits, you will be issued one on the spot for the next day.
If all ten permits were not issued the previous day, a same day permit may be available.
If there are more than 10 persons seeking a permit, there will be a drawing for the next day's 10 open slots.
Only one person per group may enter the drawing. If more than one member from your group submits an application, your group will be disqualified from the lottery.
If you receive a walk-in permit, you must wait two weeks before you can re-enter the drawing.
Permit holders may be required to show their government issued I.D.

Agreed John M. I don't think I'd go in a Forester, John Kyler mentioned in the post above mine he has an FJ and I was responding to that.

Heh heh...I finally figured that out and deleted my post. Sorry....

Ken, as a long-time former Subaru owner & a current FJ owner: I would not take a Subie in to White Pocket. I've taken the FJ in both ways (via Cottonwood Cove and from the "recommended" route further south) and was really sure a Subie wouldn't have made it, at least without getting high centered in the sand & spending a lot of time digging. I have MaxTrax since I generally travel solo (the dog isn't much help in those situations), but they've stayed on the roof rack.

You could go to the Nautilus for an evening shoot. There are some pretty colorful badlands down at the Paria movie set. Towers of Silence. Plenty to keep you occupied in a Subie.

Thanks for all the great info!
Monica, my Fossie will be disappointed it won't get the White Pocket adventure, but being alone, I will heed the advice I have received and forgo that trip. Monica,what about going to South Coyote Buttes?
And, yes, I do plan on spending some time in Grand Staircase if the roads are relatively dry. The Nautilus looks interesting and wasn't on my original agenda. Additionally, those Rimrock Toadstools could be interesting in the right light. I suspect I will also do the "tourist" thing and visit Lower and Upper Antelope Canyon on this trip as well.

Ken, I would not want to take an AWD up the sandy hill to Paw Hole. If going to Cottonwood Cove (still leary about a Subaru), come from the south off BLM 1017 near the windmill at Corral Valley. I have pulled out a 2WD jeep that got stuck that way, and an AWD that tried going to White Pocket from Pine Tree.
Another dayhike to consider would be WirePass/Buckskin Gulch

The info about St. George being the drawing office is incorrect. It is in Kanab when not at Paria. I was just at White Pocket, Cedar Mesa, Valley of the Gods and Monument Valley.

There are three routes to White Pocket. The short route from the west, the middle route from the southwest and the longer route from the southwest. The longest route is fastest, as it has the least amount of sand. We did the middle on the way in and the longer on the way out. We saved easily 30 mins. There still are some high center spots for a Subaru and in our 4x4 Pathfinder we struggled briefly a few times even on the longer, easier route.

If you have never been to Natural Bridges and are considering going somewhere else, I would suggest it. We did the whole park in an hour and were not motivated to hike down to any of the bridges. They are impressive, but shooting them is not easy as they are in deep canyons, so morning or afternoon is not really the best time. If you have a nice sky and are there when there is light on the bridges, give it a try.

In Cedar Mesa, we concentrated on Road Canyon (Fallen Roof Ruin) and Mule Canyon (House on Fire Ruin).

Ken,
The problem with a Subie is not the clearance (though I'm positive that you would get high-centered at least once, but probably more), but rather that Subies are under-powered. There are long stretches of soft sand that a Subie just won't be able to power through.

Check with the rangers at the BLM office to find out road conditions. If they don't know, there may be other hikers who are there who were just in wherever you're interested in. I think it isn't too far to Paw Hole from the main dirt road, so you might be able to walk from the main road.

You could also go to Edmaier's Secret. Buckskin Gulch TH from House Rock Rd, walk in about 45 minutes & it's to the east. Late afternoon/evening.

Yea, called the BLM office today and was told I shouldn't have much problem getting to South Coyote Buttes. I will remember that conversation if things don't go well. I work for the agency and have all their phone numbers f
That said, I will make that decision when I get there. Plenty to keep me busy besides the Buttes.
Yes, Rodney, Natural Bridges is on my agenda, however, I appreciate knowing when the best light will be. Have to admit, with the canyons and such, it will be refreshing to be able to shoot at times other than sunrise and sunset.

Yea, Monica, I forgot to add I am not against walking into South Coyote Buttes at all. Should be relatively cool temps so walking a distance is no issue for me. Once again, thanks for the advice since clearance was on everyone's mind and not power.

"The info about St. George being the drawing office is incorrect. It is in Kanab when not at Paria."

Good catch, Rodney! I can't believe I said that as I've been there several times.

I to am interested in the White Pocket area. All this talk about "driving in the sand" is making me nervous since I'll likely be solo. Its not the vehicle I'm nervous about but the driver and his lack of experience driving in sand. That driver is ME! I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee V8, so I assume that should do the trick. Any quick tips concerning how to negotiate hills of sand?

During my field time in days since past, deflating tires significantly and keeping a steady speed through the sand traps worked most of time. Having something with you to lay down under tires if you get bogged down for traction is essential. Before MaxTrax came along, we used to use 1-2ft wide strips of carpet. Still can't afford MaxTrax for the few times I am near sand, so carpet still seems to work...most of time.

Kane, depending on when you're going, I might be able to lend you my MaxTrax if you don't mind coming up to Boulder to get them.

Kane, I prefer to downshift before any deeper sands so it is easier to keep the RPMs up. Also, do not let off the gas.

Keep 'er in 4Lo for the RPMs and keep moving, just as Doug noted. Bring a tire re-inflator of some sort in case you need to deflate your tires for traction.
Have a tow rope or strap in case you get in a jam. Folks who may be inclined to help may not have a rope or one that's frayed.
As I'm almost always alone in the field, I bought an Eveready All-In-One unit a few years ago and it has paid for itself many times over. And I've used all of it's capabilities, too.

As the others said, keeping moving is the key, so it's important to have good speed going into the sand because as soon as you hit it you will slow down. Also have a good grip on the wheel and keep as straight as possible as often one wheel will hit deeper sand than the other and the vehicle will want to lurch to one side.

If you feel you do not have enough momentum to make it all the way up and may get stuck in a deep sand section, sometimes it is better to come to a stop and roll back down to the bottom rather than spin the wheels and get stuck.

Kane, we made it in a very heavily loaded Nissan Pathfinder. We did not air down or ever get stuck. 4 Low and keep on the gas. Hold the steering loose and let the wheels go (for the most part) where they want to. Try and drive on the side of the road where you can find bite. And lastly, take the longer route and you will have no problems. There is one section of really deep sand but a bypass has been created to the east.

Kane and Ken, let me know when you are going and I will try and meet you. I may try an SCB & WP trip over Memorial Day weekend too. I would like to catch the yellow mule ear flowers.

Momentum is key for driving in the sand.

Referencing the Cherokee - many modern day SUV's have traction control - but that can be a hazard. Check with drivers with the same vehicle as yours to be sure, but a key to driving in the sand is to turn traction control OFF. Many of them cycle through the brakes to find the tire that is slipping. But in the case of sand, everything is slipping and the relentless brake cycling will kill your momentum. Of course that means you might be sliding laterally but its fun :)

I prefer the route that extends further to the east then north at the ranch, rather than the Poverty Ranch route. You avoid the sandy hill. I did SCB later last year a noted the sand was deeper north of Poverty.

Kane,
You could go behind the Sand Dunes to the Medano Pass road to try out your rig in the sand. There's a part of the road that can have moderate to deep sand (before any of the creek crossings), so you can "get your feet wet" or your tires sandy. I believe that there is a compressor in the park, so you could play with airing down. For SCB, I've heard that there's one at Big Water.

If you have the capability, locking down your rear diff is helpful when the sand gets deep.

If you have a rear locker, that will definitely help! I don't think Cherokee's had this as an option, but I could be wrong. My 95 Mitsu Montero had one and it was awesome, too bad the engine was crap.

Doug,
Dependent on the weather, I plan to be around the Coyote Buttes area sometime early-mid next week. Considering the information others have provided, I suspect I will forgo any attempt with my Fossie
That Memorial Day trip sounds quite appealing if flowers would be out.