It has been a long time now and activity on the critique forms is very low as compared to the past. I have had some discussions with others to see what they thought can be done to increase participation and get overall interest in NPN up to the levels of the past and beyond.
It seems two things would help a lot. First, embracing the mobile generation. People do not sit in front of desktops or even laptops nearly as much anymore. They are on tablets and phones. So, a NPN mobile app is needed.
Second, Facebook is still big as are other social sites. How about providing buttons for all the major social sites to allow a person posting an image here on NPN to immediately post a link to that image on those sites?
I love NPN, but times are changing and NPN seems a bit stuck in the past.
Good ideas, but I have Facebook, but seldom use it, do not have a laptop, I-phone, tablet or any other portable image device, so don't forget those who use desktops!
This site already works for folks with desktops. To increase participation and to continue to get new members and stay relevant NPN needs to embrace those that use tablets and phones and social media. Simple as that. No way around it.
Message: You asked on NPN about what could be done to increase interest there. I would be happy to post on the site, but it costs $50 to do so. I can post all I want on "NATURESCAPES" FOR NOTHING.
Maybe NPN should think about letting guests post comments. Maybe even an image a month or something like that. Might get people interested in then joining. I know. $50 a year is not much, but these days when there are a lot of free options out there, people are not willing to pay as readily. Takes so messaging.
I use NPN website on iPad all the time. While an app would be great I find the site easy to use on desktop or tablet. I can't speak to the difficulty of making an app available but it would be worth looking into. I like Preston's idea of promoting site to new users. I have learned so much here over the years I would like to give others the same opportunity!
Ron, I read your thread from yesterday and couldn't agree with you more. Comments in all forums have really seemed to drop dramatically since the first of the year. Not sure what the reason is. I know the 5 to 1 (comment to posting) ratio came up a few months ago and a pretty big deal was made of it. I know for me personally I've been exceedingly busy (not an excuse I know) but I question the idea that it's because of not having mobile apps available. I've been in IT (mostly in database administration) the better part of 20 years and wonder how you can seriously critique an image (720pixels let alone 1200) on a 1-2 inch LCD screen on a smart phone as compared to a larger montior. I don't think the mainstream social media sites are the answer either as you give up alot of control not to mention their continually changing terms at trying to extort your intellectual property. As for me I like having a site I can come to with a relatively small group of regonizable names who's opinions I respect. I'm not sure what the solution is here, certainly NPN is worth saving, the moderators can only do so much. What are members thoughts out there? Is there a feeling of disfranchisement? Perhaps a couple of webinar/webex events where members could feel better connected with the group, just an idea? I'm a relative newcomer here (July 2012) but have sensed a change in the nature of posts.
I'm going to just throw a few of my thoughts out here for what they are worth. Like I'm sure many others, I got into photography in a whole-hearted way once the switch was made to digital. Before that, I didn't have the time, resources, desire, to get into film photography. But with the advent of digital, photography was made more accesible to the masses. NPN and earlier resources got to ride on the crest of all that new interest. However, as more and more persons became involved in photography, the resources also greatly increased. They are now many, many sites on the internet for photographers to post images, get critiques, take classes, etc. The number of in-person classes, photo tours, etc. has also greatly increased. So the photographer today can be quite choosey. They can "shop around" by cost, narrow interest focus, etc. for what best suits their needs. We may have reached the point where the resources explosion is starting to cause shrinking demand for each individual resource. This is what I suspect we are experiencing on NPN. We may now have to be much more competitive to keep up with all the new resources that are constantly becoming available. I think some major brainstorming, such as what has already happened here in this thread, is needed if we wish to stem this decline. We have a fantastic thing going here on NPN and I would hate to see it slowly fade away. How about creating an ongoing "Brainstorming Forum" to deal with this topic?
The continued decline in posting and commenting is definitely troubling, and it has been going on for a long time now. At one point (last year, the year before?) we consoled ourselves that it was just the normal summer falloff as family and vacations took priority. But it is apparent that something else is going on. I wish I could propose a realistic way to fix it.
Perhaps we can start by asking those of us still active just what it is that keeps us here. I can think of various reasons to post and critique at NPN:
- a way to market images and services
- a way to share images with friends
- a place to gauge self against others
- a place to learn from more experienced people with similar interests
- a place to view excellent and inspiring images
- a chance to share learned skills
- a chance to be part of a community
I'll let others expand this list if they are interested.
For myself I'd say it is mostly being part of a community as well as seeing inspiring images from others.
I think John and Carolyn pretty much summed it up. Take their responses above and layer them on top of the following as the background;
Fifteen years ago some guy who had his first PC for just a few years developed an interest in building web pages. Already active on a few photography Internet forums (not too many of them back then), he hacked away at learning HTML and slowly put together a rudimentary website that would combine features of a printed magazine (monthly articles, a cover shot and forums where people could post photos and topics) and placed it online in April of 2000. With a small following of local photographers and people he already knew from those other photo forums, NPN was born.
As they say, one dog year is equal to about seven human years. I wonder many "brick and mortar" years one year of Internet existance is worth?
Much has changed in the last 15 years. Mostly, the Internet has exploded in size - sites like Facebook, Twitter, Naturescapes, iPhones, tablets, etc. did not even exist when NPN went online.
Additonally, the Internet has become BIG business. When 500px.com first went online, they had an "about" page where it was revealed they had $550,000 in venture capital to start the site. Today, NPN not only competes against a huge expolsion in the number of photo sites (including the "knock offs" of NPN), but also some very deep pockets.
Iphone apps, site upgrades, etc. are all excellent ideas and are needed if NPN even has a prayer of being "competitive" with sites like 500px. However, deep pockets is something we do not have. After paying the over head, the small amount of $$ left over barely justifies our time and effort to keep NPN going, which averages 12 - 15 hours a week. Believe us, we'd much rather spend our weekends doing something else other than sitting behind the PC editing and placing articles online, monitoring site activity, responding to the numerous emails we get every day, etc.
So what keeps us going?
It is the satisfaction that at least a small group of nature photographers enjoy and find value in participating. We recognize that we cannot compete with the venture capital powered sites like 500px, but that there is still a group who will take the time to have a discussion like this one. It is you, the group who has posted here and the others who also value NPN, that keeps us going.
As long you as you stay, we'll keep the doors open!
I have to get rolling to my 9-to-5, but let's keep this discussion going!
PS - If anyone has a spare half-million laying around that you'd like to invest, I'm sure we could find some great ways to put it to use (site upgrades, iPhone apps, etc.)! Or, if you have the skills and want to donate them them to a worthy cause, let us know.
I think Ron's suggestion is a good one, and I imagine it's something that would not cost all that much to implement. Make it possible for non-paying members to register in order to comment on images, and perhaps post once per month. That might bring us more comments, and if they see the value, they'll pay the $50 to be able to post their own photos regularly.
Although we shouldn't have to, rewarding commenting is not necessarily a bad idea, if implemented correctly. What if you got a membership discount based on your post/comment ratio? Of course, we don't want to encourage comments like "nice!", because while that's nice, it's not what we're about. So perhaps a character based algorithm, which would reward total content/effort (though not necessarily quality, but effort is worth a lot)?
Jim, I sent you an email - I may have web development skills that would be of use, depending on the current site setup, that I can donate to the cause.
I normally access the site using an iPad, and it is well laid out for that purpose. To make it a little more friendly for those of us with fat fingers, I would suggest that the individual masthead menu buttons and dropdowns be increased in height.
Speaking as one who has apps for sale on Google, Apple, and Amazon, they are not easy to develop and maintain. Apple seems to want to out do itself on each new device, and that is a rewrite just to keep up with screen resolutions if nothing else. Android is almost a battlefield with every manufacturer of devices doing things a little different.
There is also the problem of designing an app to convey the extent of the offerings on a site like this one. Much larger organization like the Washington Post are battling this issue and not doing it well. (Go to the Apple app store and look at reviews of their app.) No app is much better than a bad app. What we don't need is just another app with an embedded browser that just takes us to the actual site.
I think that $50.00 is well spent to get advice from the moderators and regular members of the site. Where else will I get help from the likes of Brad Hill, Vincent, Gary, Morkel and all the other regular contributors to Wildlife? I have learned more in a short 5 months here than I did after spending hundreds of dollars on how to books. I know the value of having access to the knowledge of these people, but I'm not sure I would feel the same way about the site if most comments were from unknowns.
I have noticed that many of the good contributors seem to stick to one or two galleries, but I know that their expertise could be applied across the entire site. I suggest the development of a voluntary badge system that contributors might apply to a post. That way members could quickly scan the posting and see where they might be able to lend advise. Something on the lines of a badge that means: "I'm a newbie, any help appreciated", "I need comments on processing", "I need comments on composition", etc... This way someone from say Flora could quickly scan Avian, and see if their expertise in processing with Photoshop might be of help to the poster. I know in our limited time, it can be too time consuming to read each post's initial entry. This is something that I think would add value to being a member of this site, and something that is not available anyplace else.
I do see the value of making it easy to post from here to places like Facebook. The possibility of return traffic may be worth it. I personally avoid those types of sites.
If you are serious about raising money, investigate Kickstarter. A webcomics artist I follow named Rich Burlew set out to raise $57,750 to issue reprints of his collected cartoons. When the dust settled, he'd raised $1.25 million through the efforts of a dedicated core of volunteers and folks that follow his webcomic. That kind of describes NPN.
I'm not much of a fan of the social media thing, but the hooks to publicize and link aren't all that difficult. I have mixed feelings about bringing the social media crowd here; they have scant regard for intellectual property law, in my experience. But maybe it's time for an NPN Facebook page? Not Twitter [shudder].
I appreciate that for you and Donna this is a labor of love. But I agree with Ron that it would be a shame for NPN to wither away.
I have noticed that many of the good contributors seem to stick to one or two galleries, but I know that their expertise could be applied across the entire site. I suggest the development of a voluntary badge system that contributors might apply to a post. That way members could quickly scan the posting and see where they might be able to lend advise. Something on the lines of a badge that means: "I'm a newbie, any help appreciated", "I need comments on processing", "I need comments on composition", etc... This way someone from say Flora could quickly scan Avian, and see if their expertise in processing with Photoshop might be of help to the poster. I know in our limited time, it can be too time consuming to read each post's initial entry. This is something that I think would add value to being a member of this site, and something that is not available anyplace else.
This is an interesting idea Don. If there were a set of checkboxes posters could use at image post time to select those badges or properties, I imagine it would be very straightforward to modify the "All" gallery to allow a viewer to filter the images on those attributes. You'd essentially be creating new galleries organized along different lines than the standard primary subject matter one. And clearly that facility already exists on the site, as the "nature prints gallery" is exactly that - a gallery that shows you those images that have the "purchase print" option, so the development effort should be fairly minimal.
For those posting pics on facebook and other social media: Many people who are active on facebook, twitter, instagram, etc. consider all photos posted to be public domain irregardless of a copyright symbol/name appearing on the photo. The "Share" feature makes it easy to pass the photo on and to scrub any metadata in the process. Just sayin..........
Genny K in the other thread had what I thought was a great idea and easy to implement: Display a post/comment ratio next to the poster's name. Without having to do the math in your head, you could readily determine who is contributing and who is just posting images without commenting. You could then decide for yourself if the image deserved a further look or comment.
Now in defense of the good job comment. I think there is a natural progression for those of us new to the site and with enough sense to realize that we have a lot to learn. I think you have to let us go through the cycle. One first joining and commenting can feel quite reluctant to comment, but to Paraphrase Justice Holmes, I can't describe a good image, but I know one when I see it. During that period our good job comments are appropriate. If we are smart enough to read and learn from the comments of the more experienced, we can eventually move to the next phase.
I now find myself in what I call the "I wish" phase. " I wish I could see a little more dof," or "I wish I could see more detail in the shadows." If you just give us time we can progress to the more constructive comments like those of you who do this for a living or the moderators, the "it needs" phase. Just be patient with us.
Still, there are times when you look at an image, that "Outstanding" or "Great Job" is the all that needs to be said no matter what phase you are in!
Good stuff, and my sincere thanks to all for taking the time to offer your input!
We may not have deep pockets or the most glamorous/high-tech site, but what we have in spades is shown in this thread - a ton of talent and passion. THIS is what we're all about! Personally, if I was "in it" for only the money, this would have been done long ago.
People come here to research and to become better nature photographers - this is what NPN is and will always be. It is also the future of NPN, and on that path the future is very bright.
Some food for thought;
In order to post the next photo, at least 5 comments must be posted of at least a certain number of characters. This could be hard-wired into the programming. Moderators would be free to delete comments that blatantly abuse the minimum character number.
Begin a "Critique of the Week" recognition in each gallery and post them, just like we do the current Weekly Picks.
I also like the idea of the post/comment ratio appearing next to each member name, with a different badge/icon designating the ratio the member is currently holding.
We've been recognizing great photography from day one - maybe its time to start formally recognizing great commentary/critique.
People come here to research and to become better nature photographers - this is what NPN is and will always be. It is also the future of NPN, and on that path the future is very bright.
Cake walk for most all good NPNer's, might be a shock to others.
In order to post the next photo, at least 5 comments must be posted of at least a certain number of characters. This could be hard-wired into the programming. Moderators would be free to delete comments that blatantly abuse the minimum character number.
All of the input has been great and it's so nice to see that Jim is receptive - it would be easy for him to say "no time, no money".
Another suggestion I have is to maybe change the layout of NPN. I have the gallery bookmarked, so I can easily load it in a tab, see what photos interest me that have been posted recently and comment on them. Then I leave. I have to assume that there are many people who do this - or who end up in the galleries via links or google searches. The articles that are written and some other features of the site are more or less "buried" and probably get a tiny percentage of views.
I enjoy writing articles and am happy that Jim is so willing to accept and publish my work (the $50 write-off for yearly membership fees is a great bonus) but I'm sometimes discouraged thinking that very few people will see them. Looking at the top of this page - the only way to get to the article I wrote is going to the "about" tab, or the "instruction" tab. That's not intuitive at all (in my opinion). I would never suspect articles written about a wide variety of topics would be found under "about" or "instruction". Not to bring up NSN again (which I will say I do not post images too mostly because that site seems very praise happy - lots of "great shots" and little else), but their main page promptly features articles written, along with a list of recent forum posts and top images. Not to copy them by any means, but the layout of NPN could put more content in one place instead of having it fractured under misleading tab names.
I read a suggestion above that NPN should get a Facebook page. Well, of course, there already is one: http://www.facebook.com/NaturePhotographersNetwork Photographers on Facebook tend to have photographer Facebook friends. If you have a Facebook page, 'like' NPN. That's one small way to promote NPN. NPN's Facebook page has more than 10,000 'Likes'. Wouldn't 100,000 be better?
Also, maybe There could be a widget to put on blogs and websites pages. Being web illiterate, I'm not sure exactly how widgets work, but they seem to be the rage.
To get people who post pictures to comment more, I would suggest we first add a line about the 5 comment requirement/recommendation to the top of the page that shows up when we click on "post a photo". I know many persons are unaware of the 5 comment recommendation. . .it is only mentioned in some fine print which I can't even find right now. It would also serve as a reminder each time a picture is posted. I would like to see this tried first before we implement somehow hardwiring the 5 comments per post into the programming. As Paul noted, that may be a scary shock for some newer members.
To get people who post pictures to comment more, I would suggest we first add a line about the 5 comment requirement/recommendation to the top of the page that shows up when we click on "post a photo".
I think this a excellent idea, although, there are many who may not see that either. Hence, the mechanical fix or hook will eventually "enlighten" even those folks.
It seems to me that a big part of the challenge is to convince folks the the benefits are worth paying for and this is challenging at a time where there are may free options (just have to give up more of your rights). So I have two suggestions:
1. Offer some form of a reduced fee membership for first time subscribers....maybe $25 for the first year or $25 for the first six months. Then we need to make sure that they think the fee is worth it (next thought).
2. Then I think adding a "Learning" Gallery, where there would be a monthly or biweekly detailed description by one of the recent WP winners of what went into taking and processing their photo. In addition, there would be regular posts looking for advice on composition, processing, etc. and the comments would be expected to include more detail advice. I think this gallery might be restricted to members only, because many of the more experienced NPN members would not want specific and detailed advice available for free to the public. Hopefully this learning gallery would allow new members some time to improve their photography without the "is this good enough" factor that can accompany posting in the main galleries. A successful learning gallery would need significant participation in commenting from the experienced NPN members. (This idea seems to have some similarity to Jim's suggestion of a "Critique of the Week".)
Luke, no worries - it just shows that there is so much content on the site and many regulars bookmark links directly to where they want to go. Maybe I can devise something that will appear in the header of every page to remind regulars to take a look at the "front door."
Make it easier to submit photos. The re-processing for size, etc. if time consuming.
This would take more memory in the server and that may be a limitation.
I would post more often if it were easier.
the fisch
Make it easier to submit photos. The re-processing for size, etc. if time consuming.
This would take more memory in the server and that may be a limitation.
I would post more often if it were easier.
the fisch
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that members submit full size images and have NPN reduce them to the size limit? Would you really want to give up control of this process and trust to chance that the image will be properly sharpened and look ok?
Personally I don't re-process any image for size - I prepare a 1200 px and 720 px versions of each image with appropriate sharpening when I first work on the raw file.
If you are willing to allow NPN to resize for you then you should be happy with a simple PS script that would do the same thing on any size original you throw at it.
"Would you really want to give up control of this process and trust to chance that the image will be properly sharpened and look ok?"
I sure would not.
Larry,
Uploading a full size image would not be practical for those on slower connections. Also, the server would have to have a more powerful CPU or dual CPU's, a much larger quantity of RAM, and massive disc-based storage. This would be very costly.
You could write generate an action in Photoshop that would do what you want, as Richard says.
I use Tony Kuyper's latest action for web sharpening. Take a look at TK's set of PS actions. It's worth every penny.
What a great thread! In line with Preston's "NPN Ambassador" suggestion, I just spent some time on my Facebook page for the first time in weeks (not a big Facebook fan) and updated the cover photo (See picture) with a "commercial" for NPN. Then I added a Facebook photo album with a few NPN weekly pics, etc. with captions like "Nature Photgraphers Network, Weekly Pick - April 21, 2013. Common Loon and chick, from my kayak. Nature Photographers Network is THE BEST Website for learning how to improve your nature photography! www.naturephotographers.net" .
Maybe a few of the more serious social media users will take the hint, or at least start "sharing" NPN info. I already had one new NPN visitor and one "share" tonight as a result. Any harm in that?
One more thing: I just added " Member, Nature Photographers Network. www.naturephotographers.net " to my business card. Can't hurt -- right?
After reading Rich's list, I have to agree that those are the reasons I'm here, although not in the same order. I'm also not active every day but I'm lurking almost every day. Carolyn is also correct when she says that digital has exploded the market (maybe not those words). It's now possible for almost all of us to get some kind of recognition/information/validation on multiple sites for any subject. This creates a time consideration and if you let it get out of hand you for get where you came from.
Marketing NPN on Facebook may work, but I'm amazed at the junk that suddenly appears on my page. I just started about two weeks ago and I have no idea how all of that gets there. At some point, if the clutter continues, I expect that the few friends I have will unceremoniously yank me from their lists. Maybe someone who knows a bit about social network marketing can provide some advice on how to position NPN so that it doesn't become intrusive or annoying.
I have put the NPN logo as a "like", but I'm a little too new at it to do much more than that. As I learn I'll add a bigger banner or something.
We need to let new and established nature photographers know that they're welcome and appreciated at NPN. If there are going to be set limits like 5 comments to 1 post, which isn't really that much, then maybe there should be a lesser quota for new members. A new member/photographer may not want to step that deeply into the water until he or she has been around a while. It's kind of like meeting new friends, you are a little more reserved until you get to know everyone. Plus, if they've never commented or critiqued before they may be hesitant to participate and just back off completly.
I just want to point out that I think that having enough images being posted is NOT the problem, is it? It seems like there are plenty of images posted on Landscape, and Man and Nature, the galleries I visit most.
It's the COMMENTS that we are kind of short on. Personally, I think some people are just looking for praise, and will post but not comment. There are many, many images that have no information attached; nothing about the tech numbers, and no background about the situation or conditions. I agree with those who say we need to "enlighten" those who don't reciprocate by commenting. I like the idea of "best comment", too. We need to make commenting and learning and sharing as important as, if not MORE important than, posting images.
Also, when I was talking about having the ration of posts to comments, I would like to see that number on the thumbnail page, so I can tell at a glance if someone is truly participating. I have very limited time to be on NPN, and when I go to the galleries, I generally look for images that don't have very many comments; why comment on something that already has 32 comments? I get very frustrated when I finally get that image called up, and it's someone who has 48 images posted and has only made 10 or 12 comments. Forget it, I refuse to spend my time on that person. Sometimes I try to (nicely) tell them that they ought to post more, but I honestly don't know if it does any good.
You know, if people new to the site don't think they can offer a constructive comment, then how about asking a question? That would be just as good at starting give-and-take. Ask why did you use that shutter speed, why that mm, etc.
One other small idea: When you go to the Weekly Challenge forum it would be nice to have the weekly challenge for that week shown at the top of the page. At present you need to click the link and search to find it on the list before you really know the details. That is all....
Posted by Brian Gatlin on May 23, 2013 at 11:39 PM
in line with the idea of getting people to comment more, maybe only people with at least the 5:1 comment:post ratio should be eligible for weekly picks?
WOW. So much to take in, and all good thoughtful stuff.
I identify particularly with one of Don's posts where he makes the point that for new members there is a settling in period during which you are a little reluctant to comment simply because you don't feel qualified to do so. I know that I am uncomfortable commenting on a photo submitted by someone with far greater technical ability than me. In such instances all I feel I can do is say whether I like it or not. There is also the tendency to pull punches. There are photos that I think are dreadful but I won't say that because I don't think it is the right thing to do. Instead I will refrain from commenting. (If you can't say something nice then don't say anything).
So I don't think that members should be automatically penalised for not commenting. Give them time.
I really value NPN. I know that in the short time I have been a member it has helped improve my own skills in several areas, simply because it has given me the opportunity to let some very talented photographers look at and comment on my photos.
You can't get that on Facebook or 500px. In my opinion this whole 'Like' thing is a crock and is no reflection on the merits of a photograph.
Over the past few weeks I have noticed that posts have dropped off - I mostly post in the Wildlife Gallery and this is looking very quiet right now.
This is disappointing. I think we all need a steady stream of excellent photos to be posted to keep the standards high and keep the best photographers interested. The real satisfaction is when someone whose opinion you respect posts that they think you've taken a great photo. You don't get that with Facebook.
I think NPN will always have a loyal core of members but I think that the 'seriousness' of the site does not appeal to the Facebook/Twitter generation. They want everything for free and without having to make an effort. What's great about NPN is that people do make an effort to bring their photos to the best they can be and respond to the critiques they receive.
This is absolutely not a criticism of Jim, but I'm just wondering, given the amount of time he has to spend on the site, if he and NPN could benefit from officially trying to bring on board a long time NPN'er with the time, interest and skills to be able to project manage the site on more of a daily or full-time basis. It really does seem that there are lots of things you could do with this site to get it more active and increase participation, and make it more attractive to new users, and of course therefore more economically viable, but there's little of that the members can do all on their own.
There are photos that I think are dreadful but I won't say that because I don't think it is the right thing to do. Instead I will refrain from commenting. (If you can't say something nice then don't say anything).
Writing critiques that are informative and constructive, as well being nice is not easy, and takes practice. There is an informative article here on NPN that discusses The Art of Image Critique. It will help you avoid potential pitfalls.
I don't buy into the notion that "I'm not qualified to write a critique." By following the guidelines in the article, and actually writing your thoughts will help you over the hurdle.
So I don't think that members should be automatically penalized for not commenting. Give them time.
I heartily agree with this. I also believe posting comment-to-post ratios will be counter-productive: it's a penalty flag, in a way. It's been said many times, but if you give comments, you will receive them. So, if a new person has a bunch of images and has written few comments, comment on their images anyway. This will show them that they are part of the community and their thoughts on the work of others will be appreciated, just as they appreciated yours.
I agree. The worst scenario is that you get a small number of views and no comments. Clearly some images are more popular than others and sometimes I struggle to understand why, so in such cases I re-visit the image several times trying to see what others see in it that I am missing.
Going back to topic - whilst it would be terrific to have double the number of members and posts shouldn't we prize quality about quantity. The standard on NPN is very high. I like that, it makes me feel the need to compete. My first few posts were lazy, relying on the strength of the image rather than doing the processing I should have done. I soon learned.
There are plenty of free photo processing packages out there but we still pay a lot of money to use Photoshop and Lightroom. The free photo posting sites provide no incentive for posting quality images their goal seems to be to build up visitor volume for their own purposes - like attracting advertisers and links which will enhance their Google rating.
Good thread. I wish i had the answers--i don't.
The one reaction/thought i have after reading all the comments here are that we are hearing almost entirely from the core members who want NPN to survive. I think we need to hear from the photogs who left--what were there reasons for leaving? Identify the problem and fix it. If it's the social media sites etc that are drawing people away--what is their attraction? I don't care too much for those sites so I'm the worng guy to ask. I also agree with Jim D. that if we need $, let's raise it!
I think we need to hear from the photogs who left--what were there reasons for leaving?
I think this is an excellent idea. Jim likely has most of the e-mail addresses in the database of those who have left. So, I humbly suggest that he e-mail them and ask. I don't know how much of a response he would receive, but...no harm in asking.
I also agree with Jim D. that if we need $, let's raise it!
I'm new to NPN... and not new. I recently "renewed" my membership that had expired quite a while back. I'll start with talking about why I allowed my my original membership to expire a bit. Perhaps it will shed a little insight on how others think and feel.
I first decided to join NPN mostly out of a curiosity about what the "members only" forums contained. I was especially interested in seeing what bits of wisdom might be found in the "photo marketing" forum. Honestly what I found was a bit disappointing. Few threads with few replies and minimally useful information. I really didn't need some place to post photos. I have a blog, a website, a facebook page a G+ profile, not to mention all of the various forums around that I can post and receive feedback for no charge. Image posting just isn't that attractive of a "benefit." The "members portfolio" sound a bit interesting but to be honest I never bothered to put any images in there during my initial membership. Simply put I wasn't finding fifty-dollars value in the membership.
Fast forward a year... maybe two... whatever it's been. Last year I started offering a few tours and workshops involving the two wild horse herds that I live near. I'm still learning how to market these things. I'm drawing more and more interest but have yet to fill one to capacity. The ability to post in the "workshops listings" forum strikes me as being well worth the price of membership. In short the forum had something to offer that was of value to me. What's valuable varies and is different for different folks. So the trick is to find enough benefits that will be worth the price of membership to a variety of folks. Beginners want to learn... pros want to market... folks in between are likely have a variety of motivations to make them join a forum. Ego boosts, inspiration, education all can be valuable to people. Let's be honest about "ego boosts" and "critiques" from my perspective. With the exception of workshops and tours, photographers are not my target customers. A photographer is not going to purchase a print. So, to be brutally honestly, how other photographers view my work has minimal value. In contrast I'd be foaming at the mouth to hear from art buyers, interior decorators, photo editors, etc. Those opinions have much more value.
The popularity of photography is somewhat cyclic. At 57 years of age I've been around for a while and have enjoyed a life long interest in photography. I remember a time when every department store, discount store and even drug store had a photo depart that sold SLR cameras and accessories. Over time that changed. Photography quit being "THE" hobby and folks interests moved to endeavors. As technology improved and digital cameras started making it "easy" to make decent photos, and affordable, the hobby of photography again started gaining popularity. Perhaps becoming more popular than ever before. Today, as belts are tightening that interest seems to be waning a bit. Add to the mix the fact that nearly every cell phone has a camera that eclipses the capabilities of quality digital cameras from a few years ago and it's not too surprising that forum participation... not just this one, [i[most of them[/i]... is dropping off.
These have been my thoughts and experiences. From what I'm seeing a lot of forums are going through the same problem.
As a participant of only six months, I don't really see the problem this thread was started to address, but for those who do, I'm here versus elsewhere for many of the reasons Bob Decker and others have listed; critiques, learning, inspiration, ego boosts / motivation, but not any conscious reasons associated with business. What impressed me initially about NPN is the fundamental emphasis upon critiques to provide feedback from the viewer and sometimes helpful advice, and I've benefitted greatly as a recipient. Whether it's been useful to others or not, I've found that taking the time to analyze and articulate my reactions to images is also beneficial to me in developing principles and a language that I can then apply in my own photography.
So while members of any social organization participate for diverse reasons, if I had to state the single most important one for me, it would be the climate of critique and commentary here, which in my experience sets this site apart from any other. I think this is probably a big part of why the image quality is so much higher here; perhaps even highly experienced professionals like to see how and why their images are appreciated.
To promote and advance skill in this area, perhaps the site could select one or two "Critique of the Week" examples just as it does a photo of the week. This could serve both to illustrate what is sought in the critique and commentary process and also a way of providing rewards for excellence via group recognition. It would hopefully contribute to both quantity and quality more than a mandatory ratio of posts to comments of over so many words would. But these two ideas are not mutually exclusive, and there is that old saying, "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word."
Secondly, as many others have said, there are probably natural cycles over time in rates of participation in things like this. My wife is a studio potter and when I discussed this with her last night, she said she has seen participation in her on-line discussion groups fall way off recently. We may never know what is affecting things at any given moment, but I would think that over the long term it is a good idea to try to strengthen the fundamentals, and on NPN I think the critiquing process is central.
Some great points, John and Bob! I do believe this is an internet wide phenomena, as Bob pointed out, cuase the other online forums (non photography, interst groups) have also dropped off significantly as more folks do the FB route or whatever. I agree with John that we should solidify the fundamentals. Maybe, as Bob alludes to, we need to have a better perk for members, speical guest articles or input from professionals (who are in some way compensated) that are only available to members.
Great input by all - I want you all to know that it is truly appreciated!
Much has changed in the 15 years NPN has been online, but NPN has remained constant in its core mission/values that the previous comments have articulated well. This "constant" can be viewed as both the reason NPN remains valuable to its core followers and the reason others no longer participate. It's a dual-edge sword.
Jeff's point about getting others involved in the day-to-day management is a good one, and something I am 100% open to. If anyone has ideas on how they would like to contribute, please let us know! We recognize that much more can be done, but after 15 years, Donna and I may no longer have the time or motivation to pursue it. The only thing I can tell you up front is that the pay is pitiful, but the satisfaction of proividing a service/site so many remain loyal makes it all worthwhile.
BTW Stan, please return your Caddy CTS-V NPN company car - I need it back.
In order to give an intelligent response I have to return to what drew me to NPN and has kept me active for so long.
Inspiring images
Local/regional meet-ups.
Competition against amazing photographers
A place to ask questions related to nature or photography and get the needed answers.
Photo portfolios
Critique of my images
What is now missing?
Critique component.
No regional interaction
Size of the viewed image in comparison to 550 px or Whytake.com
Other possible reasons for lack of participation.
What is considered a nature shot? Are birds on branches near a birdfeeder considered baiting? Almost everyone uses some kind of post processing on their images. To what extent is that accepted and when is it not. Why is HDR accepted, yet a composite is not. Both use multiple images to make the final. Is it OK to take multiple images with different focus points and blend them together, either manually or by using software as long as they are your images? Where is the cut-off? What is NPN's definition of "nature." I tend to use post processing to clean an image as well as the usual adjustments. Is it OK to remove a stem of grass that covers a fox' eye or a branch that surrounds a bird, a spent petal from a flower?
Guess I'm saying that the final image of my "nature" shots are no longer just in-camera. Therefore I don't feel comfortable placing them in the nature galleries. Since most still look like a straight shot they really don't fit in any category. If I were to guess, at least 98% of all digital photographers use either built in-camera tricks and/or post processing to increase the value of their images.
I don't know the answer but as digital photography grows and software programs give us more options, will there be any pure nature shots? NPN has to decide where to draw the line. Is it... as long as it is a combination of your images, and not one from software, it is OK to post? If post processing is only cosmetic cleanup it is OK? Many options today, should they be allowed or not.
Still love NPN and post in floral and photo art occasionally, Visit each day to enjoy the images and comment.
I certainly agree with your comments about the critique component. I no longer post images at NPN because my work is quiet and subtle, i.e. my work is not NPN fare. I don't do blends, HDR, icons, or dramatic over-saturated landscapes. I do have a comment to post ratio of over 10:1, so I'm convinced it must be my images. That's OK. So, rather than go through the hassle of creating images to post, I just send them to a few trusted friends who are more than willing to give me thoughtful and honest feedback. Honestly, I don't need the "Nice shot", ego-boosting comments as they serve no useful purpose. If I do post an image I want to know why people like it or, on the flip-side, why they don't. I see far too much "Nice shot", and not enough real critique. Why this is, have no idea, but I am sure there are many reasons for it. The question then becomes: How do we fix this?
I am curious as to what you mean by "No regional interaction"? Would you please explain this a bit?
One thing I find troubling is that if I want to post an image in "Landscape", and I want the large version, too, I have to create a 720px under 300KB, and a 1200px under 500KB. If I then want to add it to my portfolio at Photoportfolios, I have to create yet a third image of 640px under 200KB.. A standard pixel size with a 500KB file size across the board would make things much easier.
What is considered a nature shot?
In reading your comment following this statement, I think you mean natural as apposed to nature, with 'natural' being an image that is not a blend, composite, HDR, etc. Personally, I think that images that are created using these techniques belong in 'Photo Art', rather than 'Landscape', 'Flora', 'Avian', 'Wildlife', etc.. But, that's just me, and I am certain others will disagree. That's OK.
None of my posted photographs are "in-camera" I have to scan film and then use post-processing techniques to realize my visualization, and so do the others here who use film. I think it boils down to, "Are we being honest with ourselves as to what we believe is an artfully crafted image?" If the answer is "yes", then I see no reason why it should not be posted in the appropriate 'subject-oriented' critique gallery.
Personally, this is the only site(and one other) that I joined last year, that I have any interest in being a member of! I don't think the big venture capital driven sites(500 px) compare to this site, IMO. I browse that site every day. There are some great shots there in all genres. BUT, there is nothing but smoke blowing going on over there. In addition to the truly great shots posted there, there are a lot of mediocre at best images that have comments like stunning, perfect, skillful, etc.... I'm not looking to be humored. I want to learn and improve. This place has been invaluable to my evolution in ability. The subject matter I choose is different. the way I see it has changed, as well as the way I compose it. My post processing, while still very basic and simple by some standards has also improved a lot. My understanding of how and when to capture a shot I am interested in has improved as well. I don't see any other site offering this kind of assistance. So, in this regard, NPN has no rival IMO!
I think some creative efforts to offer new things is a great idea. But, I'll never leave if we don't! I'm here to continue to be assisted, and engaged. One thing that does impact my participation is having images to post myself. I think that's kind of lazy, and I will try and do better in the future. I also notice the better images seem to get good attention even when the site seems to be slow.
So, here it is, bottom line IMO of course. The best photogs posting the best images don't need the help! If we have the time and energy to drop 30 or 40 awesomes on a great image, then let's take the time to notice the others that actually could use some suggestions for improvement. I am guilty of this myself, so not trying to stand on a soap box, just saying'. That's what really was/great about this site, and what helped me the most, and continues to do so.
"The best photogs posting the best images don't need the help!"
Perhaps not. However, even very experienced people can derive great benefit from a well written critique. To use a personal example from my teaching career: I have been a fire service instructor for over twenty years. At the end each of my classes students were provided the opportunity to evaluate my performance. The students were are not experienced teachers, but their observations were very specific and, upon reflection, quite accurate. The result of this was that I became a better instructor. Therefore, I believe that a skilled pro in any field can gain new insight into their own work, always improve, and continue learning.
" If we have the time and energy to drop 30 or 40 awesomes on a great image, then let's take the time to notice the others that actually could use some suggestions for improvement."
This is one of the best statements in this entire thread!
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" If we have the time and energy to drop 30 or 40 awesomes on a great image, then let's take the time to notice the others that actually could use some suggestions for improvement."
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This is one of the best statements in this entire thread!
An idea to help promote the concept of "photo critique" as opposed to just posting a photo;
When posting a photo, the member will be required to check boxes of aspects they are specifically looking for on that photo. Those check boxes would include composition, use of light, etc. (exact list to be determined). When the photo is posted, there would be a statemnt such as "This member is looking for feedback on composition and use of light."
This process would not prevent "attaboy" comments, but perhaps help focus the commentary on what the member is looking for.
I like this idea. Perhaps sometimes, speaking from personal experience , posters may actually be looking for "attaboy's" primarily. So this concept would help to focus the mindset of both the poster and the replier, if that is a word, upon the critique context; i.e., the idea of continuous improvement, an idea which can even apply to the experienced professional.
And, indeed, perhaps one of the boxes that could be checked would be "attaboy", right? Nothing inherently wrong with that; we all need that if we are being honest with ourselves. I know I do.
This idea of yours would help to make things much more explicit in terms of intention, and it would help us to understand the areas in which the poster is open to our comments as well as force us to ask ourselves these questions when we post images.
Not that it would be a total waste of time to post critique comments outside of those boundaries since there would still be an outside chance someone else might benefit from them. But this idea would likely help to focus the apparently limited time resources of all NPN participants more effectively.
Great idea, Jim Erhardt! Your name sounds familiar.
I think it should be incumbent upon the photographer who posts the image to ask for the feedback they believe will help them the most. If they are unsure about what they need, they can state so.
There is BBCode for either a numbered list or bulleted list that could be used by the poster so that they could list their needs.
Your check box idea could act as 'primer' for the photographer, but implementing it would mean more coding, check box validation, etc., which is one reason I suggest that the poster tell us what they need.
I think it should be incumbent upon the photographer who posts the image to ask for the feedback they believe will help them the most. If they are unsure about what they need, they can state so.
There is BBCode for either a numbered list or bulleted list that could be used by the poster so that they could list their needs.
Your check box idea could act as 'primer' for the photographer, but implementing it would mean more coding, check box validation, etc., which is one reason I suggest that the poster tell us what they need.
Here's the deal, Preston Birdwell: If what you are suggesting was going to work; viz., that posters would voluntarily request specific feedback, a concept I vaguely seem to recall having been explicitly requested when I signed up for NPN back in November of last year, if that concept of voluntary requests for critique was viable, people would be doing it now, right?
I think the point is that something, perhaps entropy, is happening. What is "entropy", well without getting into thermodynamics, it means that if you don't keep things picked up in your bedroom, pretty soon there will be dirty socks and underwear all over the place: That's entropy.
So, without a "mom" telling you to pick this stuff up, it just goes downhill. A mandatory checklist is one way of providing a surrogate mom, isn't it?
This brings to mind the more general question of how social groups establish norms and sanctions, and then what happens if these begin to lack efficacy.
When I joined NPN,I read the rules and guidelines that Jim wrote. Maybe I have slacked off. Maybe I need to re-read them. But I do recall thinking at the time that I appreciated the social engineering that clearly went into the construction of this site. Maybe the answer to the question that has been asked by the originator of this thread lies within the ways each of us participate on a daily basis.
Maybe the answer to the question isn't one of improved technology or funds or changes in the software, Maybe we can effect the changes we want to see just by our own individual decisions. Wouldn't it be wonderful if that were true? Then we would be in control of our own destiny.
First, we're all adults here, and by this time we should not need to be told to clean our room, do the dishes, or our homework. Therefore, my suggestion that folks take it upon themselves to ask for specific feedback is quite viable and a realistic expectation. If a person chooses to not ask for specific feedback, then we can either do our best in terms of comments that may help them, or choose to not comment based upon the assumption that the poster is not really looking for any help.
Second: I did not rule out Jim's suggestion for check boxes in the posting dialog box. As I said, "...check box idea could act as 'primer' for the photographer, but implementing it would mean more coding, check box validation, etc., ..." which would add to the complexity of the site. Now, if it's not a big deal for Jim to implement, I am willing to see if it works.
"Maybe the answer to the question that has been asked by the originator of this thread lies within the ways each of us participate on a daily basis."
This is certainly a part of the solution to Ron's initial query, but, as others have stated, there are nuts-and-bolts concerns that, in my opinion, need to addressed. It is an unfortunate truth that such concerns will cost real money and time in order to be addressed, but do lie in the realm of possibility. We just need to digest the needs, prioritize them, set goals and objectives, and then work on achieving them. It can be done, but it will take our NPN community, and perhaps outside resources to make it happen.
Here's an idea: Make it possible for each image poster elect whether or not to let the image be shared on Facebook or twitter. This could drive new participants to NPN.
I know that some photographers would have an issue with this due to copyright concerns,. Others may relish the exposure. That's why it should be an option.
John and Preston, your thoughts and perspectives are appreciated.
The checkbox concept where the result is simply a display of what was checked is (typically) not an expensive endeavor. If it serves to help re-enforce the true purpose of posting a photo then it may be worth doing. Moving this idea forward for further evaluation, let's construct the list of what should be included. I'll start it here, feel free to add to it;
composition
use of light
visual impact
I would also include a link to a definitions page that defines what each aspect is. Let's get the list made!
Buck, I like the idea though I'm certain there's more coding/cost involved in implementation. Would you want the photo to appear on your own FB page or directly on the NPN FB page? I feel warm and fuzzy about the latter.
While discussing check boxes I wonder if a set of skill-level check boxes might be useful? Perhaps "Novice," "Intermediate" and "Advanced."
I would never want an image to automatically link from a forum... any forum... to MY Facebook page. But I might see value to a photo post linking to the FORUM'S Facebook page. There are Wordpress plug-ins that automatically create a post to Facebook for new blog entries so it might not be that difficult to code. As long as we're discussing social networking sites I wonder of a "like" button might be a nice admission to forum and photo posts?
Picking up on the Facebook idea. I assume the suggestion is that the photo would be posted on the NPN Facebook page. Anyone who wants his/her photos on his own Facebook page can put them there. I don't have a problem with this but how many people look at the NPN Facebook pages who are not already looking at the NPN galleries? I don't have a Facebook page, so I don't know the answer.
One other thing I'm detecting from this thread is that there are a bunch of people who really value the feedback they get when they post photos and use it to improve their technique. There are others who are simply sharing and who don't seem to care too much whether they get feedback or not. Personally I see nothing wrong with that if the images can inspire the rest of us. Maybe they should state ' no critique required' or 'just sharing', so the rest of us know.
I do understand the point about comments like 'nice shot' being pretty pointless BUT, sometimes that is all I want to say. If i see a photo that i think is brilliant why shouldn't I say so? I do not have the in depth knowledge to be able to tell someone how they can use Photoshop to improve their photo, especially someone who has already produced a stunning image, but I can tell them if I like it or not and if not, why not. It's only an opinion which others are free to agree or disagree with.
I can't help feeling that if you implement more 'rules' or check boxes to create a distinction between NPN and other sites like 500px, you are more likely to deter than attract new members.
As a hobbyist mid-level photographer, the main reason I am an NPN member is to improve my photography. This improvement comes about by studying the many fabulous images that are posted every day on NPN by an outstanding collection of talented artists and reading the critiques of both my images and the images posted by other people. Several months ago I posted an image that I thought was fabulous (at least for me). I had used every bit of knowledge I had learned here and was very proud of this image. It got lots of good comments which I greatly appreciated, but one person gave me a suggestion on how to improve the image. I used that suggestion and wow, what a difference that little suggestion made to my image. THAT is why I am an NPN member. I have checked out all of the various other photography websites, but none of them give worthwhile critiques and I don't want a bunch of "likes". I can get all the "likes" I want from friends and relatives. So to me there are two components of NPN that need to be kept intact in order for me to get what I want from NPN:
1) It is really important that the many talented, often professional, photographers continue to post on NPN. Their photos many times don't need a critique, but I learn from them by studying every inch of that photo. Often times these artists are very generous (beyond belief at times) and give us detailed information on how they took the photo and how they processed the photo. I have learned so much from these photographers. For them, the annual NPN fee and the time they spend on NPN should be considered a valuable part of their marketing plan. I read somewhere, and believe it to be true, that the majority of professional photographers make their money off of other photographers through ebooks, workshops, photo tours, etc. There is no better place to market these products and yourself than a photography website where people are eager to learn.
2) It is also very important that the number and quality of critiques continues and to that end I can make two suggestions:
1. Most people who are not posting enough critiques do not know about the 5:1 recommended comment to post ratio. Most people do not take the time to look through every tab and link above where that recommendation is posted. If I tried to find it right now I would have to search for it. This recommended guideline MUST BE stated obviously, perhaps at the top of every forum, every time someone posts an image, somewhere that it is obvious. This recommendation has been made many times before, yet still the 5:1 guideline is buried beyond belief.
2. The work that the modertors take on for almost nothing is unbelieveable, yet I really wish that when they see someone with a low comment to post ratio they would speak up about it. Some moderators do that, but most do not. I have done this many times, but often this is not well received. I believe if it came from a moderator, a person of authority, that it would be received better by the poster. Just a couple days ago I looked at a photo in one of the galleries by a person who had a 2:1 comment to post ratio. This person was not a new member and not a beginner. The moderator gave a very nice critique and I was so wishing they would have mentioned the comment to post ratio, but they did not. We have to be vigilant about the critique aspect of this forum or we will lose it.
Buck, I like the idea though I'm certain there's more coding/cost involved in implementation. Would you want the photo to appear on your own FB page or directly on the NPN FB page? I feel warm and fuzzy about the latter.
What I had in mind was that NPNers, other than the OP, but with the OP's consent, would be able to share the photo on their own Facebook page and/or on their FB friends' Facebook pages. Facebook has a billion users. There must be very many photographers who don't know about NPN. Posting images on the NPN Facebook page may be warm and fuzzy, but anybody who has 'Liked' the NPN page probably already participates at NPN to some degree. 'Sharing' is all the rage on Facebook these days and with a lot of users, 'shares' far outnumber original posts.
Facebook Is an incredible market. I remember the first time I saw a URL mentioned on an ad on TV. Facebook is to the web what the web used to be to TV. I see Facebook 'Share' buttons on more and more commercial websites.
Does NPN have a Facebook ad? I'm really not sure how it works, but I think it's pay-by-the-click and it's targeted. On my own Facebook page I see ads for photographers and photographic related sites and products a lot. Facebook knows what we're interested in.
If the problem is a loss of participants, I don't know that more rules and structure is going to attract new members. Using social media seems like a good way to promote NPN. So these are just suggestions. Whether or not they have enough merit to warrant the coding/cost I am not qualified to say.
Unless the FB image ownership rules have changed, I would not be too thrilled about my images appearing on FB. I have no desire to give the rights to my photos up in that way. Other than some snapshots, I purposely don't post any of my images on social media sites.
It is possible to have a FB "like" button place a link on the visitor's FB page back to the original NPN post. This would drive more traffic to NPN and have no more danger of image theft than with posting to NPN since no image is uploaded to FB.
As for the check boxes,,,,,,I think it is an idea worth implementing but keep it short. I think you could narrow it to technical and aesthetic and let the poster add specifics. I believe this small reminder will prod people into adding more info when posting.
I like David's idea of keeping the check box list short.
1. Technical
2. Aesthetics
3. Opt Out
These terms would need to elaborated upon and the best place to do this would be The Art of Image Critique. The definitions could also be posted in the Tip of the Month Index.
I would also like to see the "Art of Image Critique" link added to main page of each critique gallery.
Hey folks, well, after 2 months and 70 replies I thought I would finally jump in. Too many good comments/suggestions to talk about all of them, but I wanted to toss out my two cents.
I think generically speaking, any perceived slow down, lack of interest or participation is primarily due to the explosion of Social media AND the sprouting of so, so many free options to share one's work. I won't list any competitive sites, but the SM phenomenas like G+ are having an impact (Flickr's been around for quite a while, so it's beyond that.) In addition, there are SO MANY photographers now with their own websites, services, workshops, tutorials, etc. etc., that this also pulls away from what has been a mainstay at NPN. We're fortunate that so many of these pros, semi-pros and advanced amateurs still come here and participate. Photographer's today just have so many more choices than they did even 5 years ago.
While I think there is some merit in bringing NPN towards the modern web (phone apps, SM, sharing, etc. etc.,) but I'm not sure I want NPN to become like all the other sites and clearly that would take lots of capital, which of course isn't floating around. Tweak the edges, add some features, services, value, but no need to revamp or transform NPN.
Critiques and comment:post ratio. While I'm a firm believer that the more one comments and more importantly, participates, the more likely (not guaranteed) that the member will get better and more responses to their images. I agree that adding the "Recommended guideline of posting 5 comments for every image you post" visibly right at the very top of the "post a photo" dialogue page would be helpful and a friendly reminder. Currently it's buried in the Posting Guidelines. It could read something like this: "Please be sure to review our Posting Guidelines before posting your topic and consider posting at least 5 comments for each of your image posts." Or something like that. Not intrusive threatening or mandatory, just a visible reminder.
IMHO this comment:post ratio should NOT be compulsory. The moment you add a system (forcibly requiring 5 posts before you post an image, a character counter or any "hook") then you will immediately alter the behavior of members. Anyone in the corporate world knows how metrics drive behaviors, and that would be true here. Force by any means to provide comments will in fact cause more 1-word "attaboys" than create an environment that fosters constructive criticism. As a moderator, I used to make it a practice to offer friendly reminders and unfortunately it is not often well received and the moderator comes off looking like the forum police. Had an email exchange with another moderator a couple years back and this stuck with me. When a member pays their 50 bucks, there is nothing in that agreement that requires them to comment, at all, let alone 5 times per image post. Again, it's not compulsory. Since then, I personally don't feel compelled to judge others by commenting on their c:p ratio. HOWEVER, I am probably like many other mods and members, I simply chose not to post a comment on images where the member simply doesn't participate and just posts an image and doesn't take the time to comment on other member's work.
To that note, I like the idea of encouraging members and posters of images to actually state what kind of feedback they are looking for. Do you want to improve your photography technicques? do you want feedback on color or processing? or do you just want to share? A check box system, again in the "Post a Photo" dialogue page would be non-intrusive, voluntary (in other words if you didn't check a box you can still post,) and as others have mentioned, limiting the choices, keeping it simple. This in turn could be combined with Don Westbrook's idea of a badge system. (go ahead and say it, "Badges? We don't have any badges, we don't need any stinking badges..." ) What I would envision would be something like this. A member checks the box that says, "Need critique on processing" or "Critique on composition." Then, when the image is posted, there is a flag, badge or some kind of visiual indicator on the thumbnail page that tells all members that this person is specifically seeking help. Again, this needs to be voluntary and optional, not mandatory. A third check box might be "Sharing, general critique and suggestions welcomed." This may or may not raise a badge? Of course this raises the possibilities of unintended consequences. For example, if you don't check a box, will you get fewer comments? Or if you check the "sharing" box, you'll just get "nice shot" rather than constructive criticism?
Agree the checkbox should be short and to the point. Along the lines of previous suggestions:
1. Help requested for photographic technique; exposure, focus, depth of field, light and dynamic range
2. Help requested for composition; balance, flow, impact, etc.
3. Help requested in processing; color, contrast, saturation, sharpening output to the web.
4. Sharing and requesting general critique and suggestions.
5. I'm a beginner, need all the help and suggestions you care to offer.
6. I have thick skin, let me have it, but be constructive
7. I'm sensitive, go easy and be constructive
Check all that apply.
I like Mark Seaver's idea of a "Learning Gallery." This would be a members only gallery (have to be in order to be something that is of value for the paid membership, otherwise folks don't have incentive to join, renew.) You could have a member volunteer to provide detailed information about how they processed a particular image. Questions, comments and responses could be open for a period of time, say 3 days or something, then closed. Wouldn't be fair to anyone who posted an image to have it open ended with questions continuing indefinitely. Not quite sure how this could be implemented. One concern might be that many of the members or moderators who could share their techniques, are often the ones who are busy running their business or providing this type of service in their own workshops, web videos, etc., and it might be tough to get some of these folks to participate. But if it's limited to just showing and sharing some basic information, like screen shots of their layer's palette, basic workflow, etc. without going in to an "instructional" mode. Member could learn simply be reading and viewing, rather than it being a very interactive gallery. Just some thoughts there.
It has been a long time now and activity on the critique forms is very low as compared to the past. I have had some discussions with others to see what they thought can be done to increase participation and get overall interest in NPN up to the levels of the past and beyond.
It seems two things would help a lot. First, embracing the mobile generation. People do not sit in front of desktops or even laptops nearly as much anymore. They are on tablets and phones. So, a NPN mobile app is needed.
Second, Facebook is still big as are other social sites. How about providing buttons for all the major social sites to allow a person posting an image here on NPN to immediately post a link to that image on those sites?
I love NPN, but times are changing and NPN seems a bit stuck in the past.
I share Ron's concern, but regarding the discussion forums, which I frequent more than the critique galleries. It used to be that it was hard to keep up. Now checking in once or twice a week does the trick. I had perceived the issue, as stated by the OP, as being one of a reduction in participation and or a loss of participants. I figured the problem is how to increase the number of participants. I'm sure Jim knows, by number of active members and by revenue, how we're doing in that regard. The gist of this thread, though, seems to be a discussion of how to get folks to post more and better comments, with the desirable norm being a comment to post ratio of 5:1. So I did a little statistical survey.
I counted the number posts and comments of the first twenty posters under the 'all photos' header. Only two posters fell below the standard of 5:1, and one of those had posted twice. The mean comment to post ratio was 9.8. The median was 8.5. This is a pretty small sample, but it does give an indication. Encouraging members to post more and better comments is a good thing, but will it significantly increase activity in the critique forums?
How about acknowledging or rewarding those who post the most comments or have the highest comment to post ratio on a monthly basis. How about an attaboy for most thoughtful or most helpful critiques? NPN acknowledges the best photos each week; why not the best critiques?
How about acknowledging or rewarding those who post the most comments or have the highest comment to post ratio on a monthly basis. How about an attaboy for most thoughtful or most helpful critiques? NPN acknowledges the best photos each week; why not the best critiques?
Buck nailed it!
We absolutely need to do this, the only question is how? It would take some major programming, but what if we had a "Did you find this comment useful?" link with each comment? I don't necessarily subscribe to the "voting" approach but it could serve to help find the best comments posted each week for consideration of a Critique of the Week recognition.
There have been so many great ideas and suggestions interleaved in this thread it'd be a shame if they were lost or overlooked. Perhaps those of you who have made suggestions, or anyone who has a favorite, could pull them out along with any relevant follow-ups, into separate threads in the NPN forum, where discussions can be more targeted and easier to find and follow. From looking back through the thread, here's the start of a list of suggestions, without details though, in no order and perhaps not needing to be broken into separate threads if they're not going to be pursued:
- Highlight in some fashion a "critique of the week"
- Add "did you find this comment useful" feedback to comments to generate "critique of the week" possibilities
- Create a "Learning gallery" with extended photo prep discussion, perhaps from weekly pick photos
- Make a more ipad/tablet friendly version of the site
- Add more social media integration of some sort
- Alter cost of membership somehow and/or add tiers of membership or cheaper trial periods
- Add more perks for paid members: special articles, input from pros, ??
- Add framework via checkboxes/badges for asking for targeted help for image posts
- Allow larger pixel image sizes and/or file sizes
- Make it easier to post images by having site do some resizing for you
- Require a certain comment-to-posting ratio or # before allowing next image post
- Add poster's post/comment ratio next to their thumbnail in galleries
- Site change to keep recent articles, info, postings of interest in front of everyone regardless where they enter the site
- Add "please consider 5 comments per image post" to top of "post an image" page
- In "art of critique" mention that asking questions can also be a valuable comment, if you don't feel qualified to critique
- Add link to current weekly challenge to top of "weekly challenge" gallery
- Email survey users that don't stay after the trial about what needs or desires of theirs the site is not meeting
- Find a way to incentivize professionals to spend more time on the site
There's probably others I've missed as well. Just for a start I'm going to pull the "image size" feature request into a separate thread. I'll name it "NPN FR #1 - image size", and see if it gets any traction that way.
Any opinions on whether any of these suggestions are interesting enough to pull out into another thread for amplification? It wasn't my intent to kill off the thread...
I'm a little late to the party here but I would just like to express my appreciation to Jim and Donna for the hard work that they do to keep NPN going. Also, I am grateful for the committed members who continue to contribute to NPN and who willingly share their expertise to an aspiring amateur photographer like myself. I would also like to say that the value of NPN is the opportunity to learn from such a great and diverse body of photographers. I appreciate the willingness of some of the experienced professional photographers to pass along their insight.
I think there are a number of great suggestions here. I do like the idea of implementing the checkboxes as a means of indicating what type of feedback the poster is looking for. Perhaps if the poster's intent was more clearly stated it might make it more comfortable for new members to offer a constructive critique - especially given that true critiques are rare in other online forums.
I would agree with the points that Lon makes that meeting a certain comment to post ratio should not be compulsory but rather encouraged. I think the suggestions that he makes are very good. I also think it is better to emphasize the quality of feedback rather than mere quantity.
I also like the idea of a learner's gallery and think this could definitely add value for all levels of photographers.
I'm also late to this party and read most, but not all posts. I quickly want to say I like the checkbox idea, but while most new photogs might know what type of critique they want, would they know what they need? Part of posting an image for a critique, is to let others spot something you didn't catch. If the poster didn't catch it, or even know something was an issue, how would they know what critique is needed? I think if someone needs to learn more about a particular area, such as use of flash, or processing tips, it would be better to have a place they can go to get that information....and isn't that already provided under the Instruction tab?
Personally, I am wondering if there is a way to separate comments from critiques. In my experience and opinion, one of the biggest reasons I've heard over and over from newbies on why they dont comment more, is they are uncomfortable with critiqing because of their skill level. So what if we gave them two ways to comment (or catagorize their comment) on an image. One would be labeled "comment" and the other "critique". This way someone new who is uncomfortable critiquing an image could instead leave just a comment. Someone wanting to actually critique could leave that and each would be separated. This would also allow the poster to easily look for the real critiques or just focus on the comments if all they wanted were "ata boys". Instead of adding a new dialog box to differentiate these, add a checkbox so the reply can be categorized. You simply write your comment or critique just as we do today, but then checkmark if it is a comment or if it is a critique. Then you can add some sort of label when displayed for the poster, which stands out for the critiques. Maybe some sort of icon? If you want to take it a step further...track not only how many comments members leave, but how many critiques in each members ratio. This might also be useful information down the road on which members would make good moderators, or who another member can turn to for more help, etc.
Discussion
80 repliesIt seems two things would help a lot. First, embracing the mobile generation. People do not sit in front of desktops or even laptops nearly as much anymore. They are on tablets and phones. So, a NPN mobile app is needed.
Second, Facebook is still big as are other social sites. How about providing buttons for all the major social sites to allow a person posting an image here on NPN to immediately post a link to that image on those sites?
I love NPN, but times are changing and NPN seems a bit stuck in the past.
Sandy
Message: You asked on NPN about what could be done to increase interest there. I would be happy to post on the site, but it costs $50 to do so. I can post all I want on "NATURESCAPES" FOR NOTHING.
Maybe NPN should think about letting guests post comments. Maybe even an image a month or something like that. Might get people interested in then joining. I know. $50 a year is not much, but these days when there are a lot of free options out there, people are not willing to pay as readily. Takes so messaging.
Talk about NPN and the benefits of membership to beginners, more advanced amateurs, and the pros that you know, or meet while you're out in the field.
--P
Jack - could you explain what you mean by this? Do you want to post images at the max size your sensor records them? Where can you do this now?
I also notice from your gallery that you have not taken advantage of the 1200 px option on a single image that you have posted so far.
What am I missing here?
Perhaps we can start by asking those of us still active just what it is that keeps us here. I can think of various reasons to post and critique at NPN:
- a way to market images and services
- a way to share images with friends
- a place to gauge self against others
- a place to learn from more experienced people with similar interests
- a place to view excellent and inspiring images
- a chance to share learned skills
- a chance to be part of a community
I'll let others expand this list if they are interested.
For myself I'd say it is mostly being part of a community as well as seeing inspiring images from others.
I think John and Carolyn pretty much summed it up. Take their responses above and layer them on top of the following as the background;
Fifteen years ago some guy who had his first PC for just a few years developed an interest in building web pages. Already active on a few photography Internet forums (not too many of them back then), he hacked away at learning HTML and slowly put together a rudimentary website that would combine features of a printed magazine (monthly articles, a cover shot and forums where people could post photos and topics) and placed it online in April of 2000. With a small following of local photographers and people he already knew from those other photo forums, NPN was born.
As they say, one dog year is equal to about seven human years. I wonder many "brick and mortar" years one year of Internet existance is worth?
Much has changed in the last 15 years. Mostly, the Internet has exploded in size - sites like Facebook, Twitter, Naturescapes, iPhones, tablets, etc. did not even exist when NPN went online.
Additonally, the Internet has become BIG business. When 500px.com first went online, they had an "about" page where it was revealed they had $550,000 in venture capital to start the site. Today, NPN not only competes against a huge expolsion in the number of photo sites (including the "knock offs" of NPN), but also some very deep pockets.
Iphone apps, site upgrades, etc. are all excellent ideas and are needed if NPN even has a prayer of being "competitive" with sites like 500px. However, deep pockets is something we do not have. After paying the over head, the small amount of $$ left over barely justifies our time and effort to keep NPN going, which averages 12 - 15 hours a week. Believe us, we'd much rather spend our weekends doing something else other than sitting behind the PC editing and placing articles online, monitoring site activity, responding to the numerous emails we get every day, etc.
So what keeps us going?
It is the satisfaction that at least a small group of nature photographers enjoy and find value in participating. We recognize that we cannot compete with the venture capital powered sites like 500px, but that there is still a group who will take the time to have a discussion like this one. It is you, the group who has posted here and the others who also value NPN, that keeps us going.
As long you as you stay, we'll keep the doors open!
I have to get rolling to my 9-to-5, but let's keep this discussion going!
PS - If anyone has a spare half-million laying around that you'd like to invest, I'm sure we could find some great ways to put it to use (site upgrades, iPhone apps, etc.)! Or, if you have the skills and want to donate them them to a worthy cause, let us know.
Although we shouldn't have to, rewarding commenting is not necessarily a bad idea, if implemented correctly. What if you got a membership discount based on your post/comment ratio? Of course, we don't want to encourage comments like "nice!", because while that's nice, it's not what we're about. So perhaps a character based algorithm, which would reward total content/effort (though not necessarily quality, but effort is worth a lot)?
Speaking as one who has apps for sale on Google, Apple, and Amazon, they are not easy to develop and maintain. Apple seems to want to out do itself on each new device, and that is a rewrite just to keep up with screen resolutions if nothing else. Android is almost a battlefield with every manufacturer of devices doing things a little different.
There is also the problem of designing an app to convey the extent of the offerings on a site like this one. Much larger organization like the Washington Post are battling this issue and not doing it well. (Go to the Apple app store and look at reviews of their app.) No app is much better than a bad app. What we don't need is just another app with an embedded browser that just takes us to the actual site.
I think that $50.00 is well spent to get advice from the moderators and regular members of the site. Where else will I get help from the likes of Brad Hill, Vincent, Gary, Morkel and all the other regular contributors to Wildlife? I have learned more in a short 5 months here than I did after spending hundreds of dollars on how to books. I know the value of having access to the knowledge of these people, but I'm not sure I would feel the same way about the site if most comments were from unknowns.
I have noticed that many of the good contributors seem to stick to one or two galleries, but I know that their expertise could be applied across the entire site. I suggest the development of a voluntary badge system that contributors might apply to a post. That way members could quickly scan the posting and see where they might be able to lend advise. Something on the lines of a badge that means: "I'm a newbie, any help appreciated", "I need comments on processing", "I need comments on composition", etc... This way someone from say Flora could quickly scan Avian, and see if their expertise in processing with Photoshop might be of help to the poster. I know in our limited time, it can be too time consuming to read each post's initial entry. This is something that I think would add value to being a member of this site, and something that is not available anyplace else.
I do see the value of making it easy to post from here to places like Facebook. The possibility of return traffic may be worth it. I personally avoid those types of sites.
Take all this with a grain of salt.
That's a very nice offer Jeff, and a great show of goodwill.
--P
If you are serious about raising money, investigate Kickstarter. A webcomics artist I follow named Rich Burlew set out to raise $57,750 to issue reprints of his collected cartoons. When the dust settled, he'd raised $1.25 million through the efforts of a dedicated core of volunteers and folks that follow his webcomic. That kind of describes NPN.
I'm not much of a fan of the social media thing, but the hooks to publicize and link aren't all that difficult. I have mixed feelings about bringing the social media crowd here; they have scant regard for intellectual property law, in my experience. But maybe it's time for an NPN Facebook page? Not Twitter [shudder].
I appreciate that for you and Donna this is a labor of love. But I agree with Ron that it would be a shame for NPN to wither away.
Jim D.
This is an interesting idea Don. If there were a set of checkboxes posters could use at image post time to select those badges or properties, I imagine it would be very straightforward to modify the "All" gallery to allow a viewer to filter the images on those attributes. You'd essentially be creating new galleries organized along different lines than the standard primary subject matter one. And clearly that facility already exists on the site, as the "nature prints gallery" is exactly that - a gallery that shows you those images that have the "purchase print" option, so the development effort should be fairly minimal.
Now in defense of the good job comment. I think there is a natural progression for those of us new to the site and with enough sense to realize that we have a lot to learn. I think you have to let us go through the cycle. One first joining and commenting can feel quite reluctant to comment, but to Paraphrase Justice Holmes, I can't describe a good image, but I know one when I see it. During that period our good job comments are appropriate. If we are smart enough to read and learn from the comments of the more experienced, we can eventually move to the next phase.
I now find myself in what I call the "I wish" phase. " I wish I could see a little more dof," or "I wish I could see more detail in the shadows." If you just give us time we can progress to the more constructive comments like those of you who do this for a living or the moderators, the "it needs" phase. Just be patient with us.
Still, there are times when you look at an image, that "Outstanding" or "Great Job" is the all that needs to be said no matter what phase you are in!
We may not have deep pockets or the most glamorous/high-tech site, but what we have in spades is shown in this thread - a ton of talent and passion. THIS is what we're all about! Personally, if I was "in it" for only the money, this would have been done long ago.
People come here to research and to become better nature photographers - this is what NPN is and will always be. It is also the future of NPN, and on that path the future is very bright.
Some food for thought;
In order to post the next photo, at least 5 comments must be posted of at least a certain number of characters. This could be hard-wired into the programming. Moderators would be free to delete comments that blatantly abuse the minimum character number.
Begin a "Critique of the Week" recognition in each gallery and post them, just like we do the current Weekly Picks.
I also like the idea of the post/comment ratio appearing next to each member name, with a different badge/icon designating the ratio the member is currently holding.
We've been recognizing great photography from day one - maybe its time to start formally recognizing great commentary/critique.
Keep 'em coming!
The marquee for the site.
Cake walk for most all good NPNer's, might be a shock to others.
Another suggestion I have is to maybe change the layout of NPN. I have the gallery bookmarked, so I can easily load it in a tab, see what photos interest me that have been posted recently and comment on them. Then I leave. I have to assume that there are many people who do this - or who end up in the galleries via links or google searches. The articles that are written and some other features of the site are more or less "buried" and probably get a tiny percentage of views.
I enjoy writing articles and am happy that Jim is so willing to accept and publish my work (the $50 write-off for yearly membership fees is a great bonus) but I'm sometimes discouraged thinking that very few people will see them. Looking at the top of this page - the only way to get to the article I wrote is going to the "about" tab, or the "instruction" tab. That's not intuitive at all (in my opinion). I would never suspect articles written about a wide variety of topics would be found under "about" or "instruction". Not to bring up NSN again (which I will say I do not post images too mostly because that site seems very praise happy - lots of "great shots" and little else), but their main page promptly features articles written, along with a list of recent forum posts and top images. Not to copy them by any means, but the layout of NPN could put more content in one place instead of having it fractured under misleading tab names.
Also, maybe There could be a widget to put on blogs and websites pages. Being web illiterate, I'm not sure exactly how widgets work, but they seem to be the rage.
I think this a excellent idea, although, there are many who may not see that either. Hence, the mechanical fix or hook will eventually "enlighten" even those folks.
I will change "Instruction" in the menu to "Articles"!
1. Offer some form of a reduced fee membership for first time subscribers....maybe $25 for the first year or $25 for the first six months. Then we need to make sure that they think the fee is worth it (next thought).
2. Then I think adding a "Learning" Gallery, where there would be a monthly or biweekly detailed description by one of the recent WP winners of what went into taking and processing their photo. In addition, there would be regular posts looking for advice on composition, processing, etc. and the comments would be expected to include more detail advice. I think this gallery might be restricted to members only, because many of the more experienced NPN members would not want specific and detailed advice available for free to the public. Hopefully this learning gallery would allow new members some time to improve their photography without the "is this good enough" factor that can accompany posting in the main galleries. A successful learning gallery would need significant participation in commenting from the experienced NPN members. (This idea seems to have some similarity to Jim's suggestion of a "Critique of the Week".)
This would take more memory in the server and that may be a limitation.
I would post more often if it were easier.
the fisch
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that members submit full size images and have NPN reduce them to the size limit? Would you really want to give up control of this process and trust to chance that the image will be properly sharpened and look ok?
Personally I don't re-process any image for size - I prepare a 1200 px and 720 px versions of each image with appropriate sharpening when I first work on the raw file.
If you are willing to allow NPN to resize for you then you should be happy with a simple PS script that would do the same thing on any size original you throw at it.
I sure would not.
Larry,
Uploading a full size image would not be practical for those on slower connections. Also, the server would have to have a more powerful CPU or dual CPU's, a much larger quantity of RAM, and massive disc-based storage. This would be very costly.
You could write generate an action in Photoshop that would do what you want, as Richard says.
I use Tony Kuyper's latest action for web sharpening. Take a look at TK's set of PS actions. It's worth every penny.
--P
Maybe a few of the more serious social media users will take the hint, or at least start "sharing" NPN info. I already had one new NPN visitor and one "share" tonight as a result. Any harm in that?
One more thing: I just added " Member, Nature Photographers Network. www.naturephotographers.net " to my business card. Can't hurt -- right?
Marketing NPN on Facebook may work, but I'm amazed at the junk that suddenly appears on my page. I just started about two weeks ago and I have no idea how all of that gets there. At some point, if the clutter continues, I expect that the few friends I have will unceremoniously yank me from their lists. Maybe someone who knows a bit about social network marketing can provide some advice on how to position NPN so that it doesn't become intrusive or annoying.
I have put the NPN logo as a "like", but I'm a little too new at it to do much more than that. As I learn I'll add a bigger banner or something.
We need to let new and established nature photographers know that they're welcome and appreciated at NPN. If there are going to be set limits like 5 comments to 1 post, which isn't really that much, then maybe there should be a lesser quota for new members. A new member/photographer may not want to step that deeply into the water until he or she has been around a while. It's kind of like meeting new friends, you are a little more reserved until you get to know everyone. Plus, if they've never commented or critiqued before they may be hesitant to participate and just back off completly.
Just a few thoughts. I'll help however I can.
It's the COMMENTS that we are kind of short on. Personally, I think some people are just looking for praise, and will post but not comment. There are many, many images that have no information attached; nothing about the tech numbers, and no background about the situation or conditions. I agree with those who say we need to "enlighten" those who don't reciprocate by commenting. I like the idea of "best comment", too. We need to make commenting and learning and sharing as important as, if not MORE important than, posting images.
Also, when I was talking about having the ration of posts to comments, I would like to see that number on the thumbnail page, so I can tell at a glance if someone is truly participating. I have very limited time to be on NPN, and when I go to the galleries, I generally look for images that don't have very many comments; why comment on something that already has 32 comments? I get very frustrated when I finally get that image called up, and it's someone who has 48 images posted and has only made 10 or 12 comments. Forget it, I refuse to spend my time on that person. Sometimes I try to (nicely) tell them that they ought to post more, but I honestly don't know if it does any good.
You know, if people new to the site don't think they can offer a constructive comment, then how about asking a question? That would be just as good at starting give-and-take. Ask why did you use that shutter speed, why that mm, etc.
I identify particularly with one of Don's posts where he makes the point that for new members there is a settling in period during which you are a little reluctant to comment simply because you don't feel qualified to do so. I know that I am uncomfortable commenting on a photo submitted by someone with far greater technical ability than me. In such instances all I feel I can do is say whether I like it or not. There is also the tendency to pull punches. There are photos that I think are dreadful but I won't say that because I don't think it is the right thing to do. Instead I will refrain from commenting. (If you can't say something nice then don't say anything).
So I don't think that members should be automatically penalised for not commenting. Give them time.
I really value NPN. I know that in the short time I have been a member it has helped improve my own skills in several areas, simply because it has given me the opportunity to let some very talented photographers look at and comment on my photos.
You can't get that on Facebook or 500px. In my opinion this whole 'Like' thing is a crock and is no reflection on the merits of a photograph.
Over the past few weeks I have noticed that posts have dropped off - I mostly post in the Wildlife Gallery and this is looking very quiet right now.
This is disappointing. I think we all need a steady stream of excellent photos to be posted to keep the standards high and keep the best photographers interested. The real satisfaction is when someone whose opinion you respect posts that they think you've taken a great photo. You don't get that with Facebook.
I think NPN will always have a loyal core of members but I think that the 'seriousness' of the site does not appeal to the Facebook/Twitter generation. They want everything for free and without having to make an effort. What's great about NPN is that people do make an effort to bring their photos to the best they can be and respond to the critiques they receive.
Writing critiques that are informative and constructive, as well being nice is not easy, and takes practice. There is an informative article here on NPN that discusses The Art of Image Critique. It will help you avoid potential pitfalls.
I don't buy into the notion that "I'm not qualified to write a critique." By following the guidelines in the article, and actually writing your thoughts will help you over the hurdle.
I heartily agree with this. I also believe posting comment-to-post ratios will be counter-productive: it's a penalty flag, in a way. It's been said many times, but if you give comments, you will receive them. So, if a new person has a bunch of images and has written few comments, comment on their images anyway. This will show them that they are part of the community and their thoughts on the work of others will be appreciated, just as they appreciated yours.
--P
Going back to topic - whilst it would be terrific to have double the number of members and posts shouldn't we prize quality about quantity. The standard on NPN is very high. I like that, it makes me feel the need to compete. My first few posts were lazy, relying on the strength of the image rather than doing the processing I should have done. I soon learned.
There are plenty of free photo processing packages out there but we still pay a lot of money to use Photoshop and Lightroom. The free photo posting sites provide no incentive for posting quality images their goal seems to be to build up visitor volume for their own purposes - like attracting advertisers and links which will enhance their Google rating.
The one reaction/thought i have after reading all the comments here are that we are hearing almost entirely from the core members who want NPN to survive. I think we need to hear from the photogs who left--what were there reasons for leaving? Identify the problem and fix it. If it's the social media sites etc that are drawing people away--what is their attraction? I don't care too much for those sites so I'm the worng guy to ask. I also agree with Jim D. that if we need $, let's raise it!
I think this is an excellent idea. Jim likely has most of the e-mail addresses in the database of those who have left. So, I humbly suggest that he e-mail them and ask. I don't know how much of a response he would receive, but...no harm in asking.
Me too.
--P
I first decided to join NPN mostly out of a curiosity about what the "members only" forums contained. I was especially interested in seeing what bits of wisdom might be found in the "photo marketing" forum. Honestly what I found was a bit disappointing. Few threads with few replies and minimally useful information. I really didn't need some place to post photos. I have a blog, a website, a facebook page a G+ profile, not to mention all of the various forums around that I can post and receive feedback for no charge. Image posting just isn't that attractive of a "benefit." The "members portfolio" sound a bit interesting but to be honest I never bothered to put any images in there during my initial membership. Simply put I wasn't finding fifty-dollars value in the membership.
Fast forward a year... maybe two... whatever it's been. Last year I started offering a few tours and workshops involving the two wild horse herds that I live near. I'm still learning how to market these things. I'm drawing more and more interest but have yet to fill one to capacity. The ability to post in the "workshops listings" forum strikes me as being well worth the price of membership. In short the forum had something to offer that was of value to me. What's valuable varies and is different for different folks. So the trick is to find enough benefits that will be worth the price of membership to a variety of folks. Beginners want to learn... pros want to market... folks in between are likely have a variety of motivations to make them join a forum. Ego boosts, inspiration, education all can be valuable to people. Let's be honest about "ego boosts" and "critiques" from my perspective. With the exception of workshops and tours, photographers are not my target customers. A photographer is not going to purchase a print. So, to be brutally honestly, how other photographers view my work has minimal value. In contrast I'd be foaming at the mouth to hear from art buyers, interior decorators, photo editors, etc. Those opinions have much more value.
The popularity of photography is somewhat cyclic. At 57 years of age I've been around for a while and have enjoyed a life long interest in photography. I remember a time when every department store, discount store and even drug store had a photo depart that sold SLR cameras and accessories. Over time that changed. Photography quit being "THE" hobby and folks interests moved to endeavors. As technology improved and digital cameras started making it "easy" to make decent photos, and affordable, the hobby of photography again started gaining popularity. Perhaps becoming more popular than ever before. Today, as belts are tightening that interest seems to be waning a bit. Add to the mix the fact that nearly every cell phone has a camera that eclipses the capabilities of quality digital cameras from a few years ago and it's not too surprising that forum participation... not just this one, [i[most of them[/i]... is dropping off.
These have been my thoughts and experiences. From what I'm seeing a lot of forums are going through the same problem.
So while members of any social organization participate for diverse reasons, if I had to state the single most important one for me, it would be the climate of critique and commentary here, which in my experience sets this site apart from any other. I think this is probably a big part of why the image quality is so much higher here; perhaps even highly experienced professionals like to see how and why their images are appreciated.
To promote and advance skill in this area, perhaps the site could select one or two "Critique of the Week" examples just as it does a photo of the week. This could serve both to illustrate what is sought in the critique and commentary process and also a way of providing rewards for excellence via group recognition. It would hopefully contribute to both quantity and quality more than a mandatory ratio of posts to comments of over so many words would. But these two ideas are not mutually exclusive, and there is that old saying, "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word."
Secondly, as many others have said, there are probably natural cycles over time in rates of participation in things like this. My wife is a studio potter and when I discussed this with her last night, she said she has seen participation in her on-line discussion groups fall way off recently. We may never know what is affecting things at any given moment, but I would think that over the long term it is a good idea to try to strengthen the fundamentals, and on NPN I think the critiquing process is central.
Much has changed in the 15 years NPN has been online, but NPN has remained constant in its core mission/values that the previous comments have articulated well. This "constant" can be viewed as both the reason NPN remains valuable to its core followers and the reason others no longer participate. It's a dual-edge sword.
Jeff's point about getting others involved in the day-to-day management is a good one, and something I am 100% open to. If anyone has ideas on how they would like to contribute, please let us know! We recognize that much more can be done, but after 15 years, Donna and I may no longer have the time or motivation to pursue it. The only thing I can tell you up front is that the pay is pitiful, but the satisfaction of proividing a service/site so many remain loyal makes it all worthwhile.
BTW Stan, please return your Caddy CTS-V NPN company car - I need it back.
Inspiring images
Local/regional meet-ups.
Competition against amazing photographers
A place to ask questions related to nature or photography and get the needed answers.
Photo portfolios
Critique of my images
What is now missing?
Critique component.
No regional interaction
Size of the viewed image in comparison to 550 px or Whytake.com
Other possible reasons for lack of participation.
What is considered a nature shot? Are birds on branches near a birdfeeder considered baiting? Almost everyone uses some kind of post processing on their images. To what extent is that accepted and when is it not. Why is HDR accepted, yet a composite is not. Both use multiple images to make the final. Is it OK to take multiple images with different focus points and blend them together, either manually or by using software as long as they are your images? Where is the cut-off? What is NPN's definition of "nature." I tend to use post processing to clean an image as well as the usual adjustments. Is it OK to remove a stem of grass that covers a fox' eye or a branch that surrounds a bird, a spent petal from a flower?
Guess I'm saying that the final image of my "nature" shots are no longer just in-camera. Therefore I don't feel comfortable placing them in the nature galleries. Since most still look like a straight shot they really don't fit in any category. If I were to guess, at least 98% of all digital photographers use either built in-camera tricks and/or post processing to increase the value of their images.
I don't know the answer but as digital photography grows and software programs give us more options, will there be any pure nature shots? NPN has to decide where to draw the line. Is it... as long as it is a combination of your images, and not one from software, it is OK to post? If post processing is only cosmetic cleanup it is OK? Many options today, should they be allowed or not.
Still love NPN and post in floral and photo art occasionally, Visit each day to enjoy the images and comment.
I certainly agree with your comments about the critique component. I no longer post images at NPN because my work is quiet and subtle, i.e. my work is not NPN fare. I don't do blends, HDR, icons, or dramatic over-saturated landscapes. I do have a comment to post ratio of over 10:1, so I'm convinced it must be my images. That's OK. So, rather than go through the hassle of creating images to post, I just send them to a few trusted friends who are more than willing to give me thoughtful and honest feedback. Honestly, I don't need the "Nice shot", ego-boosting comments as they serve no useful purpose. If I do post an image I want to know why people like it or, on the flip-side, why they don't. I see far too much "Nice shot", and not enough real critique. Why this is, have no idea, but I am sure there are many reasons for it. The question then becomes: How do we fix this?
I am curious as to what you mean by "No regional interaction"? Would you please explain this a bit?
One thing I find troubling is that if I want to post an image in "Landscape", and I want the large version, too, I have to create a 720px under 300KB, and a 1200px under 500KB. If I then want to add it to my portfolio at Photoportfolios, I have to create yet a third image of 640px under 200KB.. A standard pixel size with a 500KB file size across the board would make things much easier.
In reading your comment following this statement, I think you mean natural as apposed to nature, with 'natural' being an image that is not a blend, composite, HDR, etc. Personally, I think that images that are created using these techniques belong in 'Photo Art', rather than 'Landscape', 'Flora', 'Avian', 'Wildlife', etc.. But, that's just me, and I am certain others will disagree. That's OK.
None of my posted photographs are "in-camera" I have to scan film and then use post-processing techniques to realize my visualization, and so do the others here who use film. I think it boils down to, "Are we being honest with ourselves as to what we believe is an artfully crafted image?" If the answer is "yes", then I see no reason why it should not be posted in the appropriate 'subject-oriented' critique gallery.
--P
I think some creative efforts to offer new things is a great idea. But, I'll never leave if we don't! I'm here to continue to be assisted, and engaged. One thing that does impact my participation is having images to post myself. I think that's kind of lazy, and I will try and do better in the future. I also notice the better images seem to get good attention even when the site seems to be slow.
So, here it is, bottom line IMO of course. The best photogs posting the best images don't need the help! If we have the time and energy to drop 30 or 40 awesomes on a great image, then let's take the time to notice the others that actually could use some suggestions for improvement. I am guilty of this myself, so not trying to stand on a soap box, just saying'. That's what really was/great about this site, and what helped me the most, and continues to do so.
Anyway, that's my few cents.
Chris
Perhaps not. However, even very experienced people can derive great benefit from a well written critique. To use a personal example from my teaching career: I have been a fire service instructor for over twenty years. At the end each of my classes students were provided the opportunity to evaluate my performance. The students were are not experienced teachers, but their observations were very specific and, upon reflection, quite accurate. The result of this was that I became a better instructor. Therefore, I believe that a skilled pro in any field can gain new insight into their own work, always improve, and continue learning.
This is one of the best statements in this entire thread!
--P
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" If we have the time and energy to drop 30 or 40 awesomes on a great image, then let's take the time to notice the others that actually could use some suggestions for improvement."
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This is one of the best statements in this entire thread!
-Preston Birdwell
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When posting a photo, the member will be required to check boxes of aspects they are specifically looking for on that photo. Those check boxes would include composition, use of light, etc. (exact list to be determined). When the photo is posted, there would be a statemnt such as "This member is looking for feedback on composition and use of light."
This process would not prevent "attaboy" comments, but perhaps help focus the commentary on what the member is looking for.
Thoughts?
And, indeed, perhaps one of the boxes that could be checked would be "attaboy", right? Nothing inherently wrong with that; we all need that if we are being honest with ourselves. I know I do.
This idea of yours would help to make things much more explicit in terms of intention, and it would help us to understand the areas in which the poster is open to our comments as well as force us to ask ourselves these questions when we post images.
Not that it would be a total waste of time to post critique comments outside of those boundaries since there would still be an outside chance someone else might benefit from them. But this idea would likely help to focus the apparently limited time resources of all NPN participants more effectively.
Great idea, Jim Erhardt! Your name sounds familiar.
I think it should be incumbent upon the photographer who posts the image to ask for the feedback they believe will help them the most. If they are unsure about what they need, they can state so.
There is BBCode for either a numbered list or bulleted list that could be used by the poster so that they could list their needs.
Your check box idea could act as 'primer' for the photographer, but implementing it would mean more coding, check box validation, etc., which is one reason I suggest that the poster tell us what they need.
--P
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Jim,
I think it should be incumbent upon the photographer who posts the image to ask for the feedback they believe will help them the most. If they are unsure about what they need, they can state so.
There is BBCode for either a numbered list or bulleted list that could be used by the poster so that they could list their needs.
Your check box idea could act as 'primer' for the photographer, but implementing it would mean more coding, check box validation, etc., which is one reason I suggest that the poster tell us what they need.
--P
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Here's the deal, Preston Birdwell: If what you are suggesting was going to work; viz., that posters would voluntarily request specific feedback, a concept I vaguely seem to recall having been explicitly requested when I signed up for NPN back in November of last year, if that concept of voluntary requests for critique was viable, people would be doing it now, right?
I think the point is that something, perhaps entropy, is happening. What is "entropy", well without getting into thermodynamics, it means that if you don't keep things picked up in your bedroom, pretty soon there will be dirty socks and underwear all over the place: That's entropy.
So, without a "mom" telling you to pick this stuff up, it just goes downhill. A mandatory checklist is one way of providing a surrogate mom, isn't it?
This brings to mind the more general question of how social groups establish norms and sanctions, and then what happens if these begin to lack efficacy.
When I joined NPN,I read the rules and guidelines that Jim wrote. Maybe I have slacked off. Maybe I need to re-read them. But I do recall thinking at the time that I appreciated the social engineering that clearly went into the construction of this site. Maybe the answer to the question that has been asked by the originator of this thread lies within the ways each of us participate on a daily basis.
Maybe the answer to the question isn't one of improved technology or funds or changes in the software, Maybe we can effect the changes we want to see just by our own individual decisions. Wouldn't it be wonderful if that were true? Then we would be in control of our own destiny.
First, we're all adults here, and by this time we should not need to be told to clean our room, do the dishes, or our homework. Therefore, my suggestion that folks take it upon themselves to ask for specific feedback is quite viable and a realistic expectation. If a person chooses to not ask for specific feedback, then we can either do our best in terms of comments that may help them, or choose to not comment based upon the assumption that the poster is not really looking for any help.
Second: I did not rule out Jim's suggestion for check boxes in the posting dialog box. As I said, "...check box idea could act as 'primer' for the photographer, but implementing it would mean more coding, check box validation, etc., ..." which would add to the complexity of the site. Now, if it's not a big deal for Jim to implement, I am willing to see if it works.
This is certainly a part of the solution to Ron's initial query, but, as others have stated, there are nuts-and-bolts concerns that, in my opinion, need to addressed. It is an unfortunate truth that such concerns will cost real money and time in order to be addressed, but do lie in the realm of possibility. We just need to digest the needs, prioritize them, set goals and objectives, and then work on achieving them. It can be done, but it will take our NPN community, and perhaps outside resources to make it happen.
--P
I know that some photographers would have an issue with this due to copyright concerns,. Others may relish the exposure. That's why it should be an option.
The checkbox concept where the result is simply a display of what was checked is (typically) not an expensive endeavor. If it serves to help re-enforce the true purpose of posting a photo then it may be worth doing. Moving this idea forward for further evaluation, let's construct the list of what should be included. I'll start it here, feel free to add to it;
composition
use of light
visual impact
I would also include a link to a definitions page that defines what each aspect is. Let's get the list made!
Buck, I like the idea though I'm certain there's more coding/cost involved in implementation. Would you want the photo to appear on your own FB page or directly on the NPN FB page? I feel warm and fuzzy about the latter.
I would never want an image to automatically link from a forum... any forum... to MY Facebook page. But I might see value to a photo post linking to the FORUM'S Facebook page. There are Wordpress plug-ins that automatically create a post to Facebook for new blog entries so it might not be that difficult to code. As long as we're discussing social networking sites I wonder of a "like" button might be a nice admission to forum and photo posts?
One other thing I'm detecting from this thread is that there are a bunch of people who really value the feedback they get when they post photos and use it to improve their technique. There are others who are simply sharing and who don't seem to care too much whether they get feedback or not. Personally I see nothing wrong with that if the images can inspire the rest of us. Maybe they should state ' no critique required' or 'just sharing', so the rest of us know.
I do understand the point about comments like 'nice shot' being pretty pointless BUT, sometimes that is all I want to say. If i see a photo that i think is brilliant why shouldn't I say so? I do not have the in depth knowledge to be able to tell someone how they can use Photoshop to improve their photo, especially someone who has already produced a stunning image, but I can tell them if I like it or not and if not, why not. It's only an opinion which others are free to agree or disagree with.
I can't help feeling that if you implement more 'rules' or check boxes to create a distinction between NPN and other sites like 500px, you are more likely to deter than attract new members.
1) It is really important that the many talented, often professional, photographers continue to post on NPN. Their photos many times don't need a critique, but I learn from them by studying every inch of that photo. Often times these artists are very generous (beyond belief at times) and give us detailed information on how they took the photo and how they processed the photo. I have learned so much from these photographers. For them, the annual NPN fee and the time they spend on NPN should be considered a valuable part of their marketing plan. I read somewhere, and believe it to be true, that the majority of professional photographers make their money off of other photographers through ebooks, workshops, photo tours, etc. There is no better place to market these products and yourself than a photography website where people are eager to learn.
2) It is also very important that the number and quality of critiques continues and to that end I can make two suggestions:
1. Most people who are not posting enough critiques do not know about the 5:1 recommended comment to post ratio. Most people do not take the time to look through every tab and link above where that recommendation is posted. If I tried to find it right now I would have to search for it. This recommended guideline MUST BE stated obviously, perhaps at the top of every forum, every time someone posts an image, somewhere that it is obvious. This recommendation has been made many times before, yet still the 5:1 guideline is buried beyond belief.
2. The work that the modertors take on for almost nothing is unbelieveable, yet I really wish that when they see someone with a low comment to post ratio they would speak up about it. Some moderators do that, but most do not. I have done this many times, but often this is not well received. I believe if it came from a moderator, a person of authority, that it would be received better by the poster. Just a couple days ago I looked at a photo in one of the galleries by a person who had a 2:1 comment to post ratio. This person was not a new member and not a beginner. The moderator gave a very nice critique and I was so wishing they would have mentioned the comment to post ratio, but they did not. We have to be vigilant about the critique aspect of this forum or we will lose it.
Well that's my 2 cents. I feel better now
What I had in mind was that NPNers, other than the OP, but with the OP's consent, would be able to share the photo on their own Facebook page and/or on their FB friends' Facebook pages. Facebook has a billion users. There must be very many photographers who don't know about NPN. Posting images on the NPN Facebook page may be warm and fuzzy, but anybody who has 'Liked' the NPN page probably already participates at NPN to some degree. 'Sharing' is all the rage on Facebook these days and with a lot of users, 'shares' far outnumber original posts.
Facebook Is an incredible market. I remember the first time I saw a URL mentioned on an ad on TV. Facebook is to the web what the web used to be to TV. I see Facebook 'Share' buttons on more and more commercial websites.
Does NPN have a Facebook ad? I'm really not sure how it works, but I think it's pay-by-the-click and it's targeted. On my own Facebook page I see ads for photographers and photographic related sites and products a lot. Facebook knows what we're interested in.
If the problem is a loss of participants, I don't know that more rules and structure is going to attract new members. Using social media seems like a good way to promote NPN. So these are just suggestions. Whether or not they have enough merit to warrant the coding/cost I am not qualified to say.
How about them check boxes?
As for the check boxes,,,,,,I think it is an idea worth implementing but keep it short. I think you could narrow it to technical and aesthetic and let the poster add specifics. I believe this small reminder will prod people into adding more info when posting.
1. Technical
2. Aesthetics
3. Opt Out
These terms would need to elaborated upon and the best place to do this would be The Art of Image Critique. The definitions could also be posted in the Tip of the Month Index.
I would also like to see the "Art of Image Critique" link added to main page of each critique gallery.
--P
I think generically speaking, any perceived slow down, lack of interest or participation is primarily due to the explosion of Social media AND the sprouting of so, so many free options to share one's work. I won't list any competitive sites, but the SM phenomenas like G+ are having an impact (Flickr's been around for quite a while, so it's beyond that.) In addition, there are SO MANY photographers now with their own websites, services, workshops, tutorials, etc. etc., that this also pulls away from what has been a mainstay at NPN. We're fortunate that so many of these pros, semi-pros and advanced amateurs still come here and participate. Photographer's today just have so many more choices than they did even 5 years ago.
While I think there is some merit in bringing NPN towards the modern web (phone apps, SM, sharing, etc. etc.,) but I'm not sure I want NPN to become like all the other sites and clearly that would take lots of capital, which of course isn't floating around. Tweak the edges, add some features, services, value, but no need to revamp or transform NPN.
Critiques and comment:post ratio. While I'm a firm believer that the more one comments and more importantly, participates, the more likely (not guaranteed) that the member will get better and more responses to their images. I agree that adding the "Recommended guideline of posting 5 comments for every image you post" visibly right at the very top of the "post a photo" dialogue page would be helpful and a friendly reminder. Currently it's buried in the Posting Guidelines. It could read something like this: "Please be sure to review our Posting Guidelines before posting your topic and consider posting at least 5 comments for each of your image posts." Or something like that. Not intrusive threatening or mandatory, just a visible reminder.
IMHO this comment:post ratio should NOT be compulsory. The moment you add a system (forcibly requiring 5 posts before you post an image, a character counter or any "hook") then you will immediately alter the behavior of members. Anyone in the corporate world knows how metrics drive behaviors, and that would be true here. Force by any means to provide comments will in fact cause more 1-word "attaboys" than create an environment that fosters constructive criticism. As a moderator, I used to make it a practice to offer friendly reminders and unfortunately it is not often well received and the moderator comes off looking like the forum police. Had an email exchange with another moderator a couple years back and this stuck with me. When a member pays their 50 bucks, there is nothing in that agreement that requires them to comment, at all, let alone 5 times per image post. Again, it's not compulsory. Since then, I personally don't feel compelled to judge others by commenting on their c:p ratio. HOWEVER, I am probably like many other mods and members, I simply chose not to post a comment on images where the member simply doesn't participate and just posts an image and doesn't take the time to comment on other member's work.
To that note, I like the idea of encouraging members and posters of images to actually state what kind of feedback they are looking for. Do you want to improve your photography technicques? do you want feedback on color or processing? or do you just want to share? A check box system, again in the "Post a Photo" dialogue page would be non-intrusive, voluntary (in other words if you didn't check a box you can still post,) and as others have mentioned, limiting the choices, keeping it simple. This in turn could be combined with Don Westbrook's idea of a badge system. (go ahead and say it, "Badges? We don't have any badges, we don't need any stinking badges..." ) What I would envision would be something like this. A member checks the box that says, "Need critique on processing" or "Critique on composition." Then, when the image is posted, there is a flag, badge or some kind of visiual indicator on the thumbnail page that tells all members that this person is specifically seeking help. Again, this needs to be voluntary and optional, not mandatory. A third check box might be "Sharing, general critique and suggestions welcomed." This may or may not raise a badge? Of course this raises the possibilities of unintended consequences. For example, if you don't check a box, will you get fewer comments? Or if you check the "sharing" box, you'll just get "nice shot" rather than constructive criticism?
Agree the checkbox should be short and to the point. Along the lines of previous suggestions:
1. Help requested for photographic technique; exposure, focus, depth of field, light and dynamic range
2. Help requested for composition; balance, flow, impact, etc.
3. Help requested in processing; color, contrast, saturation, sharpening output to the web.
4. Sharing and requesting general critique and suggestions.
5. I'm a beginner, need all the help and suggestions you care to offer.
6. I have thick skin, let me have it, but be constructive
7. I'm sensitive, go easy and be constructive
Check all that apply.
I like Mark Seaver's idea of a "Learning Gallery." This would be a members only gallery (have to be in order to be something that is of value for the paid membership, otherwise folks don't have incentive to join, renew.) You could have a member volunteer to provide detailed information about how they processed a particular image. Questions, comments and responses could be open for a period of time, say 3 days or something, then closed. Wouldn't be fair to anyone who posted an image to have it open ended with questions continuing indefinitely. Not quite sure how this could be implemented. One concern might be that many of the members or moderators who could share their techniques, are often the ones who are busy running their business or providing this type of service in their own workshops, web videos, etc., and it might be tough to get some of these folks to participate. But if it's limited to just showing and sharing some basic information, like screen shots of their layer's palette, basic workflow, etc. without going in to an "instructional" mode. Member could learn simply be reading and viewing, rather than it being a very interactive gallery. Just some thoughts there.
Well, I've rambled enough.
Lon
I share Ron's concern, but regarding the discussion forums, which I frequent more than the critique galleries. It used to be that it was hard to keep up. Now checking in once or twice a week does the trick. I had perceived the issue, as stated by the OP, as being one of a reduction in participation and or a loss of participants. I figured the problem is how to increase the number of participants. I'm sure Jim knows, by number of active members and by revenue, how we're doing in that regard. The gist of this thread, though, seems to be a discussion of how to get folks to post more and better comments, with the desirable norm being a comment to post ratio of 5:1. So I did a little statistical survey.
I counted the number posts and comments of the first twenty posters under the 'all photos' header. Only two posters fell below the standard of 5:1, and one of those had posted twice. The mean comment to post ratio was 9.8. The median was 8.5. This is a pretty small sample, but it does give an indication. Encouraging members to post more and better comments is a good thing, but will it significantly increase activity in the critique forums?
How about acknowledging or rewarding those who post the most comments or have the highest comment to post ratio on a monthly basis. How about an attaboy for most thoughtful or most helpful critiques? NPN acknowledges the best photos each week; why not the best critiques?
We absolutely need to do this, the only question is how? It would take some major programming, but what if we had a "Did you find this comment useful?" link with each comment? I don't necessarily subscribe to the "voting" approach but it could serve to help find the best comments posted each week for consideration of a Critique of the Week recognition.
- Highlight in some fashion a "critique of the week"
- Add "did you find this comment useful" feedback to comments to generate "critique of the week" possibilities
- Create a "Learning gallery" with extended photo prep discussion, perhaps from weekly pick photos
- Make a more ipad/tablet friendly version of the site
- Add more social media integration of some sort
- Alter cost of membership somehow and/or add tiers of membership or cheaper trial periods
- Add more perks for paid members: special articles, input from pros, ??
- Add framework via checkboxes/badges for asking for targeted help for image posts
- Allow larger pixel image sizes and/or file sizes
- Make it easier to post images by having site do some resizing for you
- Require a certain comment-to-posting ratio or # before allowing next image post
- Add poster's post/comment ratio next to their thumbnail in galleries
- Site change to keep recent articles, info, postings of interest in front of everyone regardless where they enter the site
- Add "please consider 5 comments per image post" to top of "post an image" page
- In "art of critique" mention that asking questions can also be a valuable comment, if you don't feel qualified to critique
- Add link to current weekly challenge to top of "weekly challenge" gallery
- Email survey users that don't stay after the trial about what needs or desires of theirs the site is not meeting
- Find a way to incentivize professionals to spend more time on the site
There's probably others I've missed as well. Just for a start I'm going to pull the "image size" feature request into a separate thread. I'll name it "NPN FR #1 - image size", and see if it gets any traction that way.
I think there are a number of great suggestions here. I do like the idea of implementing the checkboxes as a means of indicating what type of feedback the poster is looking for. Perhaps if the poster's intent was more clearly stated it might make it more comfortable for new members to offer a constructive critique - especially given that true critiques are rare in other online forums.
I would agree with the points that Lon makes that meeting a certain comment to post ratio should not be compulsory but rather encouraged. I think the suggestions that he makes are very good. I also think it is better to emphasize the quality of feedback rather than mere quantity.
I also like the idea of a learner's gallery and think this could definitely add value for all levels of photographers.
Personally, I am wondering if there is a way to separate comments from critiques. In my experience and opinion, one of the biggest reasons I've heard over and over from newbies on why they dont comment more, is they are uncomfortable with critiqing because of their skill level. So what if we gave them two ways to comment (or catagorize their comment) on an image. One would be labeled "comment" and the other "critique". This way someone new who is uncomfortable critiquing an image could instead leave just a comment. Someone wanting to actually critique could leave that and each would be separated. This would also allow the poster to easily look for the real critiques or just focus on the comments if all they wanted were "ata boys". Instead of adding a new dialog box to differentiate these, add a checkbox so the reply can be categorized. You simply write your comment or critique just as we do today, but then checkmark if it is a comment or if it is a critique. Then you can add some sort of label when displayed for the poster, which stands out for the critiques. Maybe some sort of icon? If you want to take it a step further...track not only how many comments members leave, but how many critiques in each members ratio. This might also be useful information down the road on which members would make good moderators, or who another member can turn to for more help, etc.