Posted by Alan LaFaver on March 19, 2014 at 1:49 PM
Please don't take this the wrong way. I don't mean any disrespect.
I'm a new member. I'm pretty new at photography, and self taught. I joined the NPN to learn and I know it will take time. I'm a little frustrated though. I have a Flickr account, but always noticed that people on Flickr seem to be looking for an ego boost. There is rarely any constructive feedback. Seems like just a bunch of butt kissing, just to get followers and photo 'faves'. You also have 'groupies' who comment on every photo from certain photographers, with nothing but praise.
I've read some of the NPN instruction articles and have been visiting this site daily. I have a few pics in the different critique galleries. I like this network.
Here's my problem: I've only been here a few weeks, and I don't see it at the same level, but seems like most of the C&C here is the same. A bunch of butt kissing with a little vague advice thrown in. Certain popular photographers get many views and almost all positive 'critiques'. Others get almost nil.
I'm wondering what these galleries are really for. Seem like less for critique, and more for people to advertise themselves, ego stroke, tell another how great their photo is, etc....
I know that many members here are veteran, professional photographers. That's who I want to learn from. Am I out of line here? If so, I apologize. Maybe I'm not at the right place to learn. I guess, one way of learning here could be to see who is popular, and try to copy them. I just won't know the details of what and why I'm doing it. I've been hesitant to critique, because, well, who am I to judge. I know what I think looks good, but I know very little about photography. I can type 'looks amazing as usual', but what's the point? Is that what we're all here for?
I could go on but don't mean this as a rant. I love photography, especially nature, and plan on it being my main hobby forever. I'm looking for information on how to become a better photographer. My long term goal is to become a professional at some level. If possible, I would love to be able to one day make some money selling/teaching, etc...I know this may not happen at all, or may be far in the future. I may peak at $50 a year from my knowledge or portfolio. ;) Regardless, I will do this for my own enjoyment.
I guess I have 5 main questions: What are you a member of NPN for? Why are you posting images in the critique galleries? What is your plan for your photographs? What should I really expect to gain from this website and my membership fee? Besides personal field experience/trial and error, what is my best resource to learn how to get better: college course, online course, workshop, online blogs, etc?
Finally, I appreciate this site and hope to use it for many years as a great learning tool.
I joined years ago, and did so for one reason: I wanted pros who really have the eye, the experience and the knowledge to look at my images and tell me what could be improved. They did, and I can now look at my images (and those of others) much more critically. My photography has improved by leaps and bounds thanks to the talented photographers on NPN who selflessly gave me advice. I can think of no better place than NPN to learn just about everything there is about nature photography.
Yes, many people post whose images are near perfect. Frankly, I think that's wonderful - because for lovers of nature, that's eye candy. Why would I not want to see an exotic bird, beautifully captured? There sometimes is not much to say about a photo like that, other than - Congratulations. That said, even pros like to have their image critiqued, I'm sure. Maybe they could have composed or cropped the image differently, for example, and appreciate others pointing that out.
And yes, many people who post also lead tours, and are hoping to get people join them. Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. (I've been on an amazing tour discovered through NPN.)
There is also the social aspect of the site which is great. Nature photogs often work alone, so sharing experiences with others via an online forum is a way to communicate with others who do the same.
Question: is there something you'd like to get out of NPN that you're not getting? More helpful critiques of your images?
Posted by Alan LaFaver on March 19, 2014 at 2:23 PM
Rebecka, I'm new and know I have a lot to learn. I'm sure that many of my questions will be answered in time.
As for my specific question, here's an example. I posted a pic in avian gallery. It has 47 views and 1 critique (which was a decent critique with some useful info). Pretty lame though I think. 2% response to request for critique. I'm not putting this up so people can tell me it's good. I want to know how to make it better.
I see hundreds of really nice images. I bet the NPN server is filled with tens of thousands. I want to know what they did to make it look like that. I want to know what it looked like coming out of the camera. Was it cropped? What adjustments made? Was it perfect from the start? I appreciate the nice pictures as eye candy as well, and they can be useful, I agree. I also like the social aspect. Nice to have a place where like-minded photogs can communicate.
Here's what I want......I would like to see a gallery where the original image is posted along with the finished product. Under the photo, have a run down of what was done to it. That's how I would learn very quickly on how to make mine look better, right? Post processing is so important, as darkroom work was in previous years.
I'll keep searching. I'm sure there's info here on NPN I haven't found yet that would answer some of my questions.
I do think NPN is great. I think it's a good community and has tons of good info. Some of the critiques I've seen are pretty good. Just seems like there are just as many fluffy ones.
Posted by Alan LaFaver on March 19, 2014 at 2:38 PM
I just added the original to my latest avian entry as a comment. That way, ya'll can see what I started with.
Al
Posted by Keith Bauer on March 19, 2014 at 4:44 PM
Hi Alan:
The first piece of advice I'd provide is to ask for specific questions you have about your image. Just posting it with no hint of what you might be questioning leaves folks with less options for specific help. Yes, you (and MANY others) will have 47 views and 1 critique. We have encouraged people to provide at least 5 comments for every image they post. An even better ratio would be 10 comments for every image posted. Of course some people will never get that and just post images with little or no participation. When I see that, my inclination to comment goes way down.
A common reason provided for not providing critiques / comments is "I don't feel qualified". There is no test to be qualified. Provide your insights into images. They are your opinion, which by definition is simply that, your opinion. Not everyone will agree, that's fine.
I agree with you that we have FAR to many comments of the "Nice shot, love it" variety. In some cases, that is about all I can come up with as well. But in many other cases, I am one to provide comments where I see areas for improvement. As a person who judges local photography exhibitions, it is never easy to provide "negative" comments. People really need to remember that we providing a critique of you photograph, we are not providing a critique of you. For many, I've found that separation is hard for people to really wrap their heads around. For anyone who aspires to take their photography to the next level, they really need to check their ego at the door.
I was going to suggest the same thing Keith mentioned: ask specific questions about your image. I've done this and have always gotten good input.
Also - I've learned just as much by looking at the critiques that are given to others. I post less often than I used to, but still read almost all the critiques in the Avian forum (where my greatest interest lies) and so continue to learn that way.
Lastly - I bet now that more people know that you are actively looking to grow and take your photography to the next level, and would appreciate more critiques - you'll get them!
Posted by Luke Ormand on March 19, 2014 at 6:15 PM
Al,
Rebecka and Keith have given you some good advice. Part of the problem is what Keith touched on - you have only made 10 comments, and yet you have posted 10 images. This will turn some people off immediately and discourage them from commenting in the near future until your numbers reflect the 5 comments/1 post.
Additionally, NPN unfortunately has changed over the years and images do not generate the same number of comments (even if the number of views are similar to what they once were). This is mainly due to other competition on the internet and proliferation of sites like facebook and instagram. I used to post much more often and would regularly receive 10+ comments, now it's very difficult to achieve 10+ comments. You can look at my gallery to see what I am talking about (and note there are many images that won't show up there because I purposely don't retain them if they happen to get only a couple of comments or if I decide it wasn't that great of an image).
In my experience, the Landscape gallery is notoriously a big name/buttkissing gallery (compared to others). It's on a much smaller scale than other similar websites out there, but still if you have a big name you will get a lot of views and a lot of comments with praise. There have been plenty of instances where blind praise has been given to an image even when a few members point out problems with the image (say a poor job blending multiple exposures). Man & Nature is a very tough gallery to get comments in - I've seen plenty of photos accidentally or incorrectly posted in Landscape where they receive good views and comments in the first day - only to be subsequently moved to Man & Nature where they basically rot. That gallery isn't terribly "sexy" and simply doesn't attract a lot of views.
You also should keep in mind that there are a lot of people who will come to NPN who aren't even members (or are members and rarely post) contributing to the number of views you see. An image may get 50 views, but for all you know, only 5 of those views came from actual members who comment. I know I spent at least a year looking at images before I signed up and began commenting. Plus, there are some people who will post links to the image on their facebook or blog and that will generate direct traffic to that specific image, which may skew the numbers you are seeing.
All you can do is keep posting, ask for specific critiques and if you have questions about the post-process, ask away. There are some people (moderators in particular) who will be very helpful in this arena (Brad Hill comes to mind). I personally have done some "work-flows" for people, taking their original image (or original posted image) and showing the series of steps I would make to improve that image. I believe others have done that and/or would be willing to do that as well.
Lastly, one of the greatest benefits of being a member and really participating on this site (even if it's sometimes frustrating) is the relationships that you can forge. I have made "friends" with some seriously talented people on here and have been able to meet some in the field. Others will tell you the same thing. Additionally, I have established relationships with some extremely talented and successful wildlife photographers - the ability to e-mail one of the best wildlife photographers in the world (as recognized by their international contest wins for example) is so helpful. For instance, I once had National Geographic request one of my images for a 2-page spread in their publication and I had to prepare a written document and do some formatting with the image before submission. I was able to e-mail someone who had their images published in Nat Geo and who know the process intimately and they graciously helped me out. Nat Geo ended up passing on the image, but having a friend there to help me with the process (and with dealing with the disappointment) is something you can't put a dollar figure on.
Good luck and stick to it. I appreciate you posting your concerns here in a non-confrontational manner. There have been plenty of people before you who have used this forum to rant about how much this website "sucks" and that they are leaving which of course isn't constructive at all. Oh the irony.
- Luke
Posted by David Chauvin on March 19, 2014 at 6:28 PM
Lot's of good feedback so far!
C&C will vary and once people here get a feel for what you are after and your tolerance for honesty you will get more meaningful critiques. One of the best ways for people to gauge your baseline is for you to comment on how you feel about other images. You have to remember this is a group with wildly different sensibilities and levels of experience. Don't be afraid to ask for specific advice. If you have questions about someones image (technical or aesthetic) don't hesitate to ask.
What are you a member of NPN for?
This has changed since I first joined ten years ago. Back then it was mostly technical advice since I had just bought into digital and just wanted to make pretty pictures. Also I was much more into birds and macro. Today I'm looking for feedback on how people feel (or not) about my images and I'm mostly shooting landscapes these days. I welcome all feedback, tech and asthetic, and have developed a pretty thick skin.
Why are you posting images in the critique galleries?
I know what I like about my images. How they effect others is the unknown and that is why I post. Photography is about communication and even though an image might speak to me it could be gibberish to others.
What is your plan for your photographs?
No concrete plans for financial return. My plan for my photography is to work at better communicating to others the reason I decided to trip the shutter.
What should I really expect to gain from this website and my membership fee?
Critiquing (giving and receiving) will help you on the path to determining what makes an effective photo. I have come to know many exceptionally talented and generous photographers on NPN. This really is a community and what you put in largely determines what you will get out of it.
Besides personal field experience/trial and error, what is my best resource to learn how to get better: college course, online course, workshop, online blogs, etc?
Any of these can work and its different for everyone. I was lucky to have Ronnie Gaubert as a mentor who gave me a crash course on field technique. A solid technical base is a must for the type of photography you choose to do. My advice is to find photographers whose work you respect and really think about what draws you into their images. It may be their use of color or the way they frame images, but there will be something about their work that speaks to you beyond the superficial. When I first picked up a a camera years ago, Eliot Porter and Freeman Patterson were big influences. One of my favorite contemporary photographers is Guy Tal who was a long time NPN member. I have purchased several of his ebooks, follow his blog and even attended one of his workshops. Find people that inspire you and figure out what draws you into their images.
David
Posted by Alan LaFaver on March 19, 2014 at 6:29 PM
Thanks Rebecka and Keith for your input. I will make it a point going forward to critique on other gallery postings. I like the 10 for 1 ratio and will make that my goal. Also will work on requesting specific info from others.
If possible, I would love to see other photographer's original (out of the camera) work. Maybe there could be a before/after gallery that shows 2 images and would give us an opportunity to show how we processed our images as we saw fit. I think that would be extremely beneficial. I think it would also give a great basis for making a critique.
Al
Posted by Alan LaFaver on March 19, 2014 at 6:36 PM
Thank you Luke and David also! I really appreciate the feedback. Some real good advice I think. I look forward to contributing as much as I can in return.
Al
Posted by Nate Chappell on March 19, 2014 at 10:27 PM
Hi Alan, I just posted a critique on the shot you spoke of - the egret. Others have given you some really good advice already. I learned a lot of my photography from this site, from both viewing other photographers images and being given critique by other photographers. I also learned how to be critical of my own photographs partly by critiquing others photographs. So I would advise you to comment on others photos, and ask for specific advice on your photos. Commenting on others photos will make it more likely they will reciprocate and give you critiques and it will also help you develop your own critical eye.
I see that you said you are hesitant to critique as you don't think you would have to much to offer - I would beg to differ. You should have a fresher and different perspective because you have done less photography. Your critiques can be valuable to even pro photographers. You can simply see what you like and don't like and talk about it in your critiques.
Posted by Brian Gatlin on March 20, 2014 at 12:02 AM
Hi Alan, your comments and critiques are ones that arise with some regularity here. I'll start by answering your questions.
1/2. "What are you a member of NPN for?/Why are you posting images in the critique galleries?" The answer to that has changed somewhat over time. I initially became a member as a new photographer (or at least new to bird photography, which rapidly became my focus). I saw images here that simply blew me away, and photographers whose work consistently floored me. I also saw that some of those same photographers gave generous, thoughtful, meaningful, and practical critiques, especially for people who were looking for that. So I joined. When my first few images only got a few comments, I drifted away for a few months, then came back determined to learn and participate. I made a point of not worrying about how many comments/critiques my images received, and instead focused on really looking at other people's images and other people's critiques of those images. I looked at how others were viewing these images, and tried to see what they were seeing, and I weighed in as much as possible with my own responses. When you take the time to comment thoughtfully on another person's photo, it's only natural that they will be more inclined to do the same for yours. Now, a few years later, my photography, my techniques, my knowledge, my field skills, my processing, and 100 other things have improved vastly from the things I've learned here. And I'd emphasize that those things I've learned have been as much from thinking about and critiquing other people's images as from receiving critiques of my own--you'll hear that again and again here, and it is really true. I have room to improve, but I also know that most of what I do is at least solid work. Now I post to get other points of view--does the photo have as much (or similar) impact for others as it does for me? is there something that I'm missing? And I also come back and post because I value the relationships with people here that I've made over the years. There are so many amazing and generous and talented people here, it's incredible. It's inevitable that as photographers get better, there's less to critique in their work--but we all started in the same place, and still all appreciate honest feedback.
3. "what is your plan for your photographs?" I photograph for my own enjoyment. I sell a handful of photos a year, but only enough to make my taxes more complicated, not enough to make any real difference. It's not a motivation. I take them for myself, and to capture some fragment of the beauty that is all around me. I donate probably more photos than I sell to non-profits and other groups.
4. "What should I really expect to gain from this website and my membership fee?" Depends what you're after, just like everyone else here. You're right--there are pros here who really aren't doing anything besides advertising their own workshops--they don't comment, they don't contribute, they just post shots to drum up business. But there's also plenty of pros and others here who are here for other reasons, to share, to learn, and to give back to others. The more specific you can be when you post an image, the more constructive the feedback you're likely to receive. Are you interested in feedback on the technical execution? the light? the processing? the composition? the white balance? how to improve some aspect next time? And the more you look at critiques on other images (and provide your own), the more you'll be able to critique your own, and understand what to ask people to look at. Be patient, be active, and the learning and progress will come.
5. "what is my best resource to learn how to get better" There's so many that there's almost too many. Think about what you need to learn, and try to focus there. From an overall perspective, look at the photographers here who you admire, and if they have a link to a blog or a website below their name, check it out. Lots of people have lots of great content on their sites. If it's something more technical (exposure, etc), a book may be the answer. For any specific question, (i.e., how do I get better at _____?), that would probably be a great topic in one of these forums.
There's some fantastic photographers who have chimed in above me (and not to single out, but wow, David Chauvin's work is absolutely wonderful--he has shown me new ways of seeing and his work is really an inspiration). Be persistent, look at people's work and look at people's comments--you'll figure out pretty quickly who you want to learn from, and who is willing to help you. This site is an amazing resource, but it can take a little effort to break through and really get the most out of it. Good luck to you, and enjoy!
Posted by Alan LaFaver on March 20, 2014 at 12:57 AM
Nice Brian. Very informative! I appreciate your time in responding to the questions. When I joined NPN a few weeks ago, feedback like yours and the others above was what I was looking for. Like Rebecka said earlier, a good community of thoughtful photographers who are looking to improve, but also mentor the less experienced yet eager ones like me. I look forward to building my skills as well as contributing to the NPN community.
And you're right. The quality of work here is incredible. Of course, I'm partial to my Louisiana home boys, but love seeing work from so many talented people from all over the globe.
Thanks,
Alan
Posted by Richard Ditch on March 20, 2014 at 12:59 AM
Lots of excellent advice so far. I'll repeat some of the most valuable:
- read as many critiques as possible and match them to the images as best you can. This will help develop your own eye and you will learn to be critical of your own work as a result.
- participate by commenting on other people's images.
- ask for feedback on specific issues in your own images.
- ask other photographers for more details about their images. I am not shy about asking how much somethinlmingg is cropped, or if a subject was baited or taken at a setup if the image leads me to believe it might have been and wasn't disclosed. Sometimes people won't answer but often they will.
- be patient. It takes a little while to establish a presence, and that's part of the give and take of commenting.
- judge the value of the feedback you receive by the quality of the images of the person who makes the comment. You'll learn who is honest and competent, and who is just being social most of the time.
I've been posting and commenting since 2001. I post because I like to share my work and because I like getting comments (good or bad). I post to prove I'm competent when I give critiques and advice. I post to make a point about what is possible without using a blind, or a set-up. or baiting. I post to see if my skills are keeping up with other photographers I respect.
My photography is overwhelmingly for my own pleasure. I don't try to sell prints from my NPN posts. But I do sell the occasional image for publication somewhere when I get a request from a hit on my web site or blog.
I enjoy the social aspects of posting at NPN. I've met at least 10 people who post here in the field and I've enjoyed shooting with them. Way back in the days of film and the internet didn't exist I was part of a small group of nature photographers in NJ who met once a month to look at each other's recent photos. It was a lot of fun and it formed the basis of my education in photography. Participating at NPN is somewhat like that, even if we don't all meet in the same place.
Luke, that's a great post and echoes many of my feelings. I also believe one of the most valuable aspects of this site is the possibility to connect with some excellent photographers around the globe. As a pro, these connections and some of the insights gleaned from them have proven to be very useful. That's been more appealing to me than image critiques. Even though I'm well aware of many of my failings as a photographer, constructive criticism was not what lured me into becoming a member (and honestly, when the majority of the helpful comments seem to be in the vein of "post a larger image so we can tell you whether your photo is sharp," I'm not sure the critiques are always as useful as they could be).
Commenting and feedback is not what it used to be here--I've seen the same thing occur on other nature and sports photo communities I'm a part of--but for some, the NPN community retains its value in many other ways.
Max
Posted by Luke Ormand on March 20, 2014 at 9:25 AM
Thanks Max.
I think this point by Richard Ditch is really key: - judge the value of the feedback you receive by the quality of the images of the person who makes the comment. You'll learn who is honest and competent, and who is just being social most of the time.
When I post a photo, especially in say the Landscape Gallery where I'm quite inexperienced I always check the gallery of the perosn who leaves the comment. If they are active and have a lot of really good images and are offering my truly constructive critiscm, it goes a long way. If it's someone who never posts and their comment is "nice shot" well, that is of little value to me.
I just have to reiterate this comment because it is so important to me: put in the effort to make comments on others' images and keep your comment-to-post ratio at better than 5isto 1 (10 to 1 is way better!).
Just stop and think how much time and effort you are asking for if you want to get 10 comments on your image, and look at how many images are posted here per day. You are asking 10 different people to take time from their day to study your image and comment on it. You get what you give. If everybody wants 10 comments, then everyone needs to make 10 comments.
I think the members here are extremely helpful, but new members need to make the effort. I will not comment on an image when the poster has a low commenting ratio because this is one of my pet peeves. You get good by putting in effort, and FORCING yourself to think critically about someone elses image is a great learning tool. Think you don't have enough experience to make comments? Wrong. As was noted above, that fresh perspective matters a lot. Photographers are notorious for concentrating on nitpicky things that don't matter very much to all the people we share our photos with, including customers. That subject has come up on here several times.
Now, aren't you glad you asked the question? I am. Believe me, you will get great advice on here if you put in the effort. Yes, it has changed, and we have lost some of the members who contributed greatly, but there are still a bunch of really great photogs on here, and also other technical experts. Look at the thousands of comments they have made and the time commitment that entailed.
I don't post a lot of images, but I do have a high comment to post ratio. When I post an image, it often is one I'm uncertain or ambivalent about. If I get praise, great. If I get criticism, that's great, too. If I don't get very many comments, even that tells me something about the image. I take it as a yawn, a big ho-hum.
This site was and is the best site on the web for image sharing and critique imo. I have visited the other big sites, and as you say, it's all a bunch of foo foo foo comments with no one offering any kind of critique at all. I agree with many if not all of your thoughts. I agree also that if ask specifically what you would like critiqued, you might get more responses. But, sometimes we just don't know what to ask for. I figure if you post an image in a critique forum then you want it critiqued right? I also echo the suggestions about the 5/1 comment to post ratio. I know it takes time to offer thoughtful critiques, but if you have time to post, than you can take a few minutes to offer something to the other posted images as well. I used to hesitate to suggest changes or improvement that were beyond my own capabilities, still do. But even the beginner can recognize things that could be improved in almost any image posted. That said, there are a lot of experienced and talented people here. For many of them, I consider the image posted to be what they intend it to look like. So it comes down to do I like it or not like it. I myself still get out of whack with my post editing, so I like the fact that I don't get a "PASS" when I go a stray. But if you are getting mostly positive feedback without much in the way of critique, you can figure most people are happy with what you posted. I know a lot of folks here that won't let you slide if the need for changes or improvements is there. I also agree that if you are not getting anything much at all, it might be just not stirring people to respond. It is possible to have a well captured and processed image that isn't connecting with folks.
For me, my failures are what helped me make the most progress. Obviously folks here pointing that out to me was invaluable. All I can say is keep posting, and don't be afraid to say what you think when commenting on other work. Things will take care of themselves from there, I think.
Chris
Posted by Alan LaFaver on March 21, 2014 at 11:03 AM
Thanks for the input from you all! I think you've steered me in the right direction. Chris, you're points are well taken. As I'm now making serious daily attempts to make comments for others, I find some images just don't interest me. I really can't think of much to say about them. Others I see, I like many things about it, but want to change some major things. Also, the lack of views or comments does say something to me.......I suck! LOL. Well, thats kind of a joke. But in a way, not. Poor pictures won't generate much interest.
I am working on building up my ratio. It's already teaching me a lot I think. I never figured it as a teaching tool, but you all are right. Right now, I think it is starting to help me see mistakes I make.
My skin is pretty thick, and my confidence in my ability is pretty high, especially given my lack of experience. I hope to continue receiving feedback from you all.
I also assume everyone here is posting to get some feedback. I'll be the first one to admit I don't know much. My opinions may be way off, but I hope no one here gets offended by my critiques. I'm just trying to better myself, as well as contribute, and be a small part of this great photographer network.
As I view more of yall's images, galleries and portfolios, I'm inspired, awed, and extremely humbled. I may not ever match your abilities, skill and vision, but I'm damn sure gonna try!
This is what it's all about, Alan. At times it might appear to be competitive, and it truly is, but more so with how you compete with yourself in the long run to improve your own work overall.
Discussion
20 repliesI'm a new member. I'm pretty new at photography, and self taught. I joined the NPN to learn and I know it will take time. I'm a little frustrated though. I have a Flickr account, but always noticed that people on Flickr seem to be looking for an ego boost. There is rarely any constructive feedback. Seems like just a bunch of butt kissing, just to get followers and photo 'faves'. You also have 'groupies' who comment on every photo from certain photographers, with nothing but praise.
I've read some of the NPN instruction articles and have been visiting this site daily. I have a few pics in the different critique galleries. I like this network.
Here's my problem: I've only been here a few weeks, and I don't see it at the same level, but seems like most of the C&C here is the same. A bunch of butt kissing with a little vague advice thrown in. Certain popular photographers get many views and almost all positive 'critiques'. Others get almost nil.
I'm wondering what these galleries are really for. Seem like less for critique, and more for people to advertise themselves, ego stroke, tell another how great their photo is, etc....
I know that many members here are veteran, professional photographers. That's who I want to learn from. Am I out of line here? If so, I apologize. Maybe I'm not at the right place to learn. I guess, one way of learning here could be to see who is popular, and try to copy them. I just won't know the details of what and why I'm doing it. I've been hesitant to critique, because, well, who am I to judge. I know what I think looks good, but I know very little about photography. I can type 'looks amazing as usual', but what's the point? Is that what we're all here for?
I could go on but don't mean this as a rant. I love photography, especially nature, and plan on it being my main hobby forever. I'm looking for information on how to become a better photographer. My long term goal is to become a professional at some level. If possible, I would love to be able to one day make some money selling/teaching, etc...I know this may not happen at all, or may be far in the future. I may peak at $50 a year from my knowledge or portfolio. ;) Regardless, I will do this for my own enjoyment.
I guess I have 5 main questions: What are you a member of NPN for? Why are you posting images in the critique galleries? What is your plan for your photographs? What should I really expect to gain from this website and my membership fee? Besides personal field experience/trial and error, what is my best resource to learn how to get better: college course, online course, workshop, online blogs, etc?
Finally, I appreciate this site and hope to use it for many years as a great learning tool.
All advice is welcome.
Al
Yes, many people post whose images are near perfect. Frankly, I think that's wonderful - because for lovers of nature, that's eye candy. Why would I not want to see an exotic bird, beautifully captured? There sometimes is not much to say about a photo like that, other than - Congratulations. That said, even pros like to have their image critiqued, I'm sure. Maybe they could have composed or cropped the image differently, for example, and appreciate others pointing that out.
And yes, many people who post also lead tours, and are hoping to get people join them. Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. (I've been on an amazing tour discovered through NPN.)
There is also the social aspect of the site which is great. Nature photogs often work alone, so sharing experiences with others via an online forum is a way to communicate with others who do the same.
Question: is there something you'd like to get out of NPN that you're not getting? More helpful critiques of your images?
As for my specific question, here's an example. I posted a pic in avian gallery. It has 47 views and 1 critique (which was a decent critique with some useful info). Pretty lame though I think. 2% response to request for critique. I'm not putting this up so people can tell me it's good. I want to know how to make it better.
I see hundreds of really nice images. I bet the NPN server is filled with tens of thousands. I want to know what they did to make it look like that. I want to know what it looked like coming out of the camera. Was it cropped? What adjustments made? Was it perfect from the start? I appreciate the nice pictures as eye candy as well, and they can be useful, I agree. I also like the social aspect. Nice to have a place where like-minded photogs can communicate.
Here's what I want......I would like to see a gallery where the original image is posted along with the finished product. Under the photo, have a run down of what was done to it. That's how I would learn very quickly on how to make mine look better, right? Post processing is so important, as darkroom work was in previous years.
I'll keep searching. I'm sure there's info here on NPN I haven't found yet that would answer some of my questions.
I do think NPN is great. I think it's a good community and has tons of good info. Some of the critiques I've seen are pretty good. Just seems like there are just as many fluffy ones.
Al
The first piece of advice I'd provide is to ask for specific questions you have about your image. Just posting it with no hint of what you might be questioning leaves folks with less options for specific help. Yes, you (and MANY others) will have 47 views and 1 critique. We have encouraged people to provide at least 5 comments for every image they post. An even better ratio would be 10 comments for every image posted. Of course some people will never get that and just post images with little or no participation. When I see that, my inclination to comment goes way down.
A common reason provided for not providing critiques / comments is "I don't feel qualified". There is no test to be qualified. Provide your insights into images. They are your opinion, which by definition is simply that, your opinion. Not everyone will agree, that's fine.
I agree with you that we have FAR to many comments of the "Nice shot, love it" variety. In some cases, that is about all I can come up with as well. But in many other cases, I am one to provide comments where I see areas for improvement. As a person who judges local photography exhibitions, it is never easy to provide "negative" comments. People really need to remember that we providing a critique of you photograph, we are not providing a critique of you. For many, I've found that separation is hard for people to really wrap their heads around. For anyone who aspires to take their photography to the next level, they really need to check their ego at the door.
Also - I've learned just as much by looking at the critiques that are given to others. I post less often than I used to, but still read almost all the critiques in the Avian forum (where my greatest interest lies) and so continue to learn that way.
Lastly - I bet now that more people know that you are actively looking to grow and take your photography to the next level, and would appreciate more critiques - you'll get them!
Rebecka and Keith have given you some good advice. Part of the problem is what Keith touched on - you have only made 10 comments, and yet you have posted 10 images. This will turn some people off immediately and discourage them from commenting in the near future until your numbers reflect the 5 comments/1 post.
Additionally, NPN unfortunately has changed over the years and images do not generate the same number of comments (even if the number of views are similar to what they once were). This is mainly due to other competition on the internet and proliferation of sites like facebook and instagram. I used to post much more often and would regularly receive 10+ comments, now it's very difficult to achieve 10+ comments. You can look at my gallery to see what I am talking about (and note there are many images that won't show up there because I purposely don't retain them if they happen to get only a couple of comments or if I decide it wasn't that great of an image).
In my experience, the Landscape gallery is notoriously a big name/buttkissing gallery (compared to others). It's on a much smaller scale than other similar websites out there, but still if you have a big name you will get a lot of views and a lot of comments with praise. There have been plenty of instances where blind praise has been given to an image even when a few members point out problems with the image (say a poor job blending multiple exposures). Man & Nature is a very tough gallery to get comments in - I've seen plenty of photos accidentally or incorrectly posted in Landscape where they receive good views and comments in the first day - only to be subsequently moved to Man & Nature where they basically rot. That gallery isn't terribly "sexy" and simply doesn't attract a lot of views.
You also should keep in mind that there are a lot of people who will come to NPN who aren't even members (or are members and rarely post) contributing to the number of views you see. An image may get 50 views, but for all you know, only 5 of those views came from actual members who comment. I know I spent at least a year looking at images before I signed up and began commenting. Plus, there are some people who will post links to the image on their facebook or blog and that will generate direct traffic to that specific image, which may skew the numbers you are seeing.
All you can do is keep posting, ask for specific critiques and if you have questions about the post-process, ask away. There are some people (moderators in particular) who will be very helpful in this arena (Brad Hill comes to mind). I personally have done some "work-flows" for people, taking their original image (or original posted image) and showing the series of steps I would make to improve that image. I believe others have done that and/or would be willing to do that as well.
Lastly, one of the greatest benefits of being a member and really participating on this site (even if it's sometimes frustrating) is the relationships that you can forge. I have made "friends" with some seriously talented people on here and have been able to meet some in the field. Others will tell you the same thing. Additionally, I have established relationships with some extremely talented and successful wildlife photographers - the ability to e-mail one of the best wildlife photographers in the world (as recognized by their international contest wins for example) is so helpful. For instance, I once had National Geographic request one of my images for a 2-page spread in their publication and I had to prepare a written document and do some formatting with the image before submission. I was able to e-mail someone who had their images published in Nat Geo and who know the process intimately and they graciously helped me out. Nat Geo ended up passing on the image, but having a friend there to help me with the process (and with dealing with the disappointment) is something you can't put a dollar figure on.
Good luck and stick to it. I appreciate you posting your concerns here in a non-confrontational manner. There have been plenty of people before you who have used this forum to rant about how much this website "sucks" and that they are leaving which of course isn't constructive at all. Oh the irony.
- Luke
C&C will vary and once people here get a feel for what you are after and your tolerance for honesty you will get more meaningful critiques. One of the best ways for people to gauge your baseline is for you to comment on how you feel about other images. You have to remember this is a group with wildly different sensibilities and levels of experience. Don't be afraid to ask for specific advice. If you have questions about someones image (technical or aesthetic) don't hesitate to ask.
What are you a member of NPN for?
This has changed since I first joined ten years ago. Back then it was mostly technical advice since I had just bought into digital and just wanted to make pretty pictures. Also I was much more into birds and macro. Today I'm looking for feedback on how people feel (or not) about my images and I'm mostly shooting landscapes these days. I welcome all feedback, tech and asthetic, and have developed a pretty thick skin.
Why are you posting images in the critique galleries?
I know what I like about my images. How they effect others is the unknown and that is why I post. Photography is about communication and even though an image might speak to me it could be gibberish to others.
What is your plan for your photographs?
No concrete plans for financial return. My plan for my photography is to work at better communicating to others the reason I decided to trip the shutter.
What should I really expect to gain from this website and my membership fee?
Critiquing (giving and receiving) will help you on the path to determining what makes an effective photo. I have come to know many exceptionally talented and generous photographers on NPN. This really is a community and what you put in largely determines what you will get out of it.
Besides personal field experience/trial and error, what is my best resource to learn how to get better: college course, online course, workshop, online blogs, etc?
Any of these can work and its different for everyone. I was lucky to have Ronnie Gaubert as a mentor who gave me a crash course on field technique. A solid technical base is a must for the type of photography you choose to do. My advice is to find photographers whose work you respect and really think about what draws you into their images. It may be their use of color or the way they frame images, but there will be something about their work that speaks to you beyond the superficial. When I first picked up a a camera years ago, Eliot Porter and Freeman Patterson were big influences. One of my favorite contemporary photographers is Guy Tal who was a long time NPN member. I have purchased several of his ebooks, follow his blog and even attended one of his workshops. Find people that inspire you and figure out what draws you into their images.
David
If possible, I would love to see other photographer's original (out of the camera) work. Maybe there could be a before/after gallery that shows 2 images and would give us an opportunity to show how we processed our images as we saw fit. I think that would be extremely beneficial. I think it would also give a great basis for making a critique.
Al
Al
I see that you said you are hesitant to critique as you don't think you would have to much to offer - I would beg to differ. You should have a fresher and different perspective because you have done less photography. Your critiques can be valuable to even pro photographers. You can simply see what you like and don't like and talk about it in your critiques.
1/2. "What are you a member of NPN for?/Why are you posting images in the critique galleries?" The answer to that has changed somewhat over time. I initially became a member as a new photographer (or at least new to bird photography, which rapidly became my focus). I saw images here that simply blew me away, and photographers whose work consistently floored me. I also saw that some of those same photographers gave generous, thoughtful, meaningful, and practical critiques, especially for people who were looking for that. So I joined. When my first few images only got a few comments, I drifted away for a few months, then came back determined to learn and participate. I made a point of not worrying about how many comments/critiques my images received, and instead focused on really looking at other people's images and other people's critiques of those images. I looked at how others were viewing these images, and tried to see what they were seeing, and I weighed in as much as possible with my own responses. When you take the time to comment thoughtfully on another person's photo, it's only natural that they will be more inclined to do the same for yours. Now, a few years later, my photography, my techniques, my knowledge, my field skills, my processing, and 100 other things have improved vastly from the things I've learned here. And I'd emphasize that those things I've learned have been as much from thinking about and critiquing other people's images as from receiving critiques of my own--you'll hear that again and again here, and it is really true. I have room to improve, but I also know that most of what I do is at least solid work. Now I post to get other points of view--does the photo have as much (or similar) impact for others as it does for me? is there something that I'm missing? And I also come back and post because I value the relationships with people here that I've made over the years. There are so many amazing and generous and talented people here, it's incredible. It's inevitable that as photographers get better, there's less to critique in their work--but we all started in the same place, and still all appreciate honest feedback.
3. "what is your plan for your photographs?" I photograph for my own enjoyment. I sell a handful of photos a year, but only enough to make my taxes more complicated, not enough to make any real difference. It's not a motivation. I take them for myself, and to capture some fragment of the beauty that is all around me. I donate probably more photos than I sell to non-profits and other groups.
4. "What should I really expect to gain from this website and my membership fee?" Depends what you're after, just like everyone else here. You're right--there are pros here who really aren't doing anything besides advertising their own workshops--they don't comment, they don't contribute, they just post shots to drum up business. But there's also plenty of pros and others here who are here for other reasons, to share, to learn, and to give back to others. The more specific you can be when you post an image, the more constructive the feedback you're likely to receive. Are you interested in feedback on the technical execution? the light? the processing? the composition? the white balance? how to improve some aspect next time? And the more you look at critiques on other images (and provide your own), the more you'll be able to critique your own, and understand what to ask people to look at. Be patient, be active, and the learning and progress will come.
5. "what is my best resource to learn how to get better" There's so many that there's almost too many. Think about what you need to learn, and try to focus there. From an overall perspective, look at the photographers here who you admire, and if they have a link to a blog or a website below their name, check it out. Lots of people have lots of great content on their sites. If it's something more technical (exposure, etc), a book may be the answer. For any specific question, (i.e., how do I get better at _____?), that would probably be a great topic in one of these forums.
There's some fantastic photographers who have chimed in above me (and not to single out, but wow, David Chauvin's work is absolutely wonderful--he has shown me new ways of seeing and his work is really an inspiration). Be persistent, look at people's work and look at people's comments--you'll figure out pretty quickly who you want to learn from, and who is willing to help you. This site is an amazing resource, but it can take a little effort to break through and really get the most out of it. Good luck to you, and enjoy!
And you're right. The quality of work here is incredible. Of course, I'm partial to my Louisiana home boys, but love seeing work from so many talented people from all over the globe.
Thanks,
Alan
- read as many critiques as possible and match them to the images as best you can. This will help develop your own eye and you will learn to be critical of your own work as a result.
- participate by commenting on other people's images.
- ask for feedback on specific issues in your own images.
- ask other photographers for more details about their images. I am not shy about asking how much somethinlmingg is cropped, or if a subject was baited or taken at a setup if the image leads me to believe it might have been and wasn't disclosed. Sometimes people won't answer but often they will.
- be patient. It takes a little while to establish a presence, and that's part of the give and take of commenting.
- judge the value of the feedback you receive by the quality of the images of the person who makes the comment. You'll learn who is honest and competent, and who is just being social most of the time.
I've been posting and commenting since 2001. I post because I like to share my work and because I like getting comments (good or bad). I post to prove I'm competent when I give critiques and advice. I post to make a point about what is possible without using a blind, or a set-up. or baiting. I post to see if my skills are keeping up with other photographers I respect.
My photography is overwhelmingly for my own pleasure. I don't try to sell prints from my NPN posts. But I do sell the occasional image for publication somewhere when I get a request from a hit on my web site or blog.
I enjoy the social aspects of posting at NPN. I've met at least 10 people who post here in the field and I've enjoyed shooting with them. Way back in the days of film and the internet didn't exist I was part of a small group of nature photographers in NJ who met once a month to look at each other's recent photos. It was a lot of fun and it formed the basis of my education in photography. Participating at NPN is somewhat like that, even if we don't all meet in the same place.
Commenting and feedback is not what it used to be here--I've seen the same thing occur on other nature and sports photo communities I'm a part of--but for some, the NPN community retains its value in many other ways.
Max
I think this point by Richard Ditch is really key: - judge the value of the feedback you receive by the quality of the images of the person who makes the comment. You'll learn who is honest and competent, and who is just being social most of the time.
When I post a photo, especially in say the Landscape Gallery where I'm quite inexperienced I always check the gallery of the perosn who leaves the comment. If they are active and have a lot of really good images and are offering my truly constructive critiscm, it goes a long way. If it's someone who never posts and their comment is "nice shot" well, that is of little value to me.
Just stop and think how much time and effort you are asking for if you want to get 10 comments on your image, and look at how many images are posted here per day. You are asking 10 different people to take time from their day to study your image and comment on it. You get what you give. If everybody wants 10 comments, then everyone needs to make 10 comments.
I think the members here are extremely helpful, but new members need to make the effort. I will not comment on an image when the poster has a low commenting ratio because this is one of my pet peeves. You get good by putting in effort, and FORCING yourself to think critically about someone elses image is a great learning tool. Think you don't have enough experience to make comments? Wrong. As was noted above, that fresh perspective matters a lot. Photographers are notorious for concentrating on nitpicky things that don't matter very much to all the people we share our photos with, including customers. That subject has come up on here several times.
Now, aren't you glad you asked the question?
I don't post a lot of images, but I do have a high comment to post ratio. When I post an image, it often is one I'm uncertain or ambivalent about. If I get praise, great. If I get criticism, that's great, too. If I don't get very many comments, even that tells me something about the image. I take it as a yawn, a big ho-hum.
For me, my failures are what helped me make the most progress. Obviously folks here pointing that out to me was invaluable. All I can say is keep posting, and don't be afraid to say what you think when commenting on other work. Things will take care of themselves from there, I think.
Chris
I am working on building up my ratio. It's already teaching me a lot I think. I never figured it as a teaching tool, but you all are right. Right now, I think it is starting to help me see mistakes I make.
My skin is pretty thick, and my confidence in my ability is pretty high, especially given my lack of experience. I hope to continue receiving feedback from you all.
I also assume everyone here is posting to get some feedback. I'll be the first one to admit I don't know much. My opinions may be way off, but I hope no one here gets offended by my critiques. I'm just trying to better myself, as well as contribute, and be a small part of this great photographer network.
As I view more of yall's images, galleries and portfolios, I'm inspired, awed, and extremely humbled. I may not ever match your abilities, skill and vision, but I'm damn sure gonna try!
Al
This is what it's all about, Alan. At times it might appear to be competitive, and it truly is, but more so with how you compete with yourself in the long run to improve your own work overall.