This title has now lived up to it's name. Unfortunately a friend and I both shot the same subject while at a local Greenhouse and now have had a falling out over what was perceived as plagiarism. I am not mad just disappointed that a stack of flower pots could cause such a rift in a great relationship. What is plagiarism when it comes to photography? Are there original ideas out there anymore that someone else has not shot? Is photography the photographing of a subject that has been shot to dead and putting your twist on it . A flower is not original yet millions of the same kind of flower photos exist. Divided Illusions . Does anyone own a subject , can a photographer claim I got there first so it's mine ! These are just musings and I would like to hear your opinion.
I will remove this image in a few days out of respect for a friendship I valued and lost. But I am curious where do you stand when out shooting with a friend . Is it first come so I own it and you can not photograph the same subject . Or is it a melding of creative ideas and energies that feed each others vision. Can two images shot by different photographers ,different camera, shooting styles , processing and lens truly be the same ? If one photographer never shares their images anywhere online and has no intention and one does is that plagiarism ? Can it be original art if it is never shared ? These are just thoughts , I don't know where I stand on this subject , this is the first time I have run into this in my time as a photographer .It is not a right or wrong thing as I have already lost either way as the other photographer decided to sever the friendship and I would like to know where you do if you care to share you thoughts.
Sorry to hear you had a falling out with your friend. It's unfortunate that a photograph such as this one would end a friendship.
Plagiarism, I believe, revolves around intent. If the image, piece of music, an essay, etc. was copied (this is the operative word) with the intent to call it one's own, this is plagiarism. If the image looks like someone else's, and was created by sheer accident. Then it's not plagiarism: it's happenstance.
A subject can be owned. For example, if I take a photo of my guitar, which I own, then I own the subject and the resulting image. If someone else takes a photo of my guitar, they own the image they created, but I still own the subject. By the same token, if someone deliberately created a photograph of my guitar that was identical to mine, they will be guilty of plagiarism and copyright because I own the intellectual right to the first-created image.
Is it first come so I own it and you can not photograph the same subject . Or is it a melding of creative ideas and energies that feed each others vision.
If someone photographs the same subject I am, I am not bothered by it. In fact the second sentence in the quote is the more likely scenario when I am out with friends. The 'melding of creative ideas' almost always results in a more artful photograph: And that's a good thing! When I am out with friends, we usually wander off to different places and make our photos of what we find. On occasion, we may photograph the same subject, but the images are different from one another because we see differently even if we're using nearly identical cameras and the same focal length lenses. We do try to not photograph the same subject, but sometimes, for example, photographing a group of cottonwood trees in Ahwahnee Meadow in Yosemite, it's unavoidable. In such a case, we're careful to not have a similar composition.
I believe you can't delete the images without deleting the thread. Leave it, there's no harm, in my opinion.
Lorna, you have raised some interesting questions that I hope others will offer their opinions on.
I don't really want to defend or explain what happened ,this is just more about etiquette when shooting with another photographer or about what is original or not original.
If a fellow photographer thinks there is an unspoken understanding that you would not shoot the same subjects as they do . They tell a photo buddy hey I shot that last week does that mean you walk away from the subject ? But if that photographer says hey I shot that last week would you mind not taking that shot, hey totally cool.
We often have group trips and therefore have similar images. My personal moral standing is that if a friend or fellow photographer points out a great subject, then I will take pictures from a different point of view, but I will not enter it in any competitions where I know we might be competing. As far as the ownership of the images each is their own since they were taken by a different person with different equipment. There are exceptions... if it is a set up of objects conceived by the other photographer, a hand crafted work of art, or if it is an arrangement of people (at a wedding for example) then I will not take the shot.
It is a challenge to get the different image and that's what makes photography fun.
"By the same token, if someone deliberately created a photograph of my guitar that was identical to mine, they will be guilty of plagiarism and copyright because I own the intellectual right to the first-created image."
Perhaps plagiarism, but I do not think a copyright violation. You own the intellectual right to the image from your camera, but not the one from the other person. That is an independently created work using different equipment--it is not the same as yours. If what you say is true, then many images would violate copyright. For example, stars in the night sky (astrophotos): the light really does not change, and the entire sky has been imaged. Does that mean all new photographs, of say a galaxy, are now in copyright violation? No. No one owns the light reflected/emitted from a subject. Some have claimed copyright of certain things, for example, the lights on the Eiffel Tower, but one can still take an image of the city with the Eiffel Tower in the scene, and just because you set up your camera in a certain spot and made an image, and I come along a 10 minutes later and take the same scene does not mean you own the first rights. (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_Tower#Image_copyright_claims )
It would be nice to hear from a lawyer on this matter; I am not a lawyer.
Roger
Posted by Lorna Taylor on May 18, 2014 at 10:34 AM
Unless the other Photographer will post or shows their image I or anyone else have no way or knowing how similar they are.
Roger, no court in Canada would touch this for the reasons stated because every image would then be suspect of infringement and plagiarism. Not worried about that just what is the etiquette here as it seems such a grey area in photography.
Posted by Debbie Yarra on May 18, 2014 at 11:15 AM
It's very sad that you have lost a friend over a photo. I guess if you were together at the same time and the person was shooting that composition first for a specific project and/or had in mind to use it for a competition or for sale and then you,within minutes of taking that shot, took the same one and processed it the same and put it out to the public for sale or competition before or at the same time they did and you were doing this for a national or the same local competition or selling in the same location, then it might be considered stealing an idea, but there are a lot of if's there. On the other hand I can't tell you how many photographers go to the Dallas Divide every fall to take a picture from that same pull out. I'm sure in all the years there has to be some photos that look almost identical if not exactly the same and yet many of those photographers sell their work and may sell the same photo and no one is screaming plagiarism or talking to their lawyer. So, I guess it all depends on the specific situation. I know when I was on a photo tour. There was this waterfall that 5 of us were photographing and there was only one vantage point because the place to photograph it was on the side of a cliff about 2 feet wide. He instructed us that the best lens would be the 70-200 because it was a distance away and also gave us pointers on the best comp and shutter speed to make the water soft. I saw another person's photo and the comp was identical to mine. He sells his work and so do I and yet neither of us was stamping our feet over the fact that they were the same. That being said, after I processed mine it looked a bit different than his (I saw his post processing too). I have sold mine multiple times and really don't care if he has sold his. I don't have any claims on nature nor compositions. I guess some of it comes down to ego, confidence and if you are selling to the same group of people. BTW, the photo is an interesting abstract, but IMO no photograph no matter how beautiful is worth losing a friend for. Great subject thanks for posting!
It's too bad you lost a friend over this; it would appear that they had a different outlook on this than you.
A friend and I sometimes go out photo'ing together. I'm more landscape, she's more wildlife and macro. We do stay out of each others' way, but other than that, I can't imagine one of us thinking the other should NOT take a photo of the same thing.
I have secret places I go, and she does too, so yes, we don't try to go prying into things like that, but if you're somewhere together? We take pictures of the exact same thing all the time, then compare how our images turned out the next time we talk.
I have actually felt like I was stealing others' ideas sometimes, when I see an image or read about a certain type of image, and then I go try it, but that's how you learn. Everyone puts their own style on their photos, though. If something was out there in the open at the greenhouse, it would certainly seem to me that anyone could look at it and photograph it. Look at all the famous icons that get photographed every day. Was it the object, or the technique they thought was being plagiarized? Interesting subject!
so say your out with a photography buddy who thinks they are being an original artist by say photographing paint lines and you then happen to one day to photograph a cool paint line you just had to capture. Would you consider that subject off limits because you know your other photographer friend photographs these so it is taboo and the other photographer would consider this a stealing of their creative and artistic vision ,so just go photograph your flowers and stuff and leave my subject matter alone. I photograph it so there for you should never photograph the same thing because you are stealing my idea (yes I know how crazy this sounds).
I think that if you choose to photograph with other photographers, then you should realize that this can happen. I shoot mainly avian and I like to shoot with other photographers. We all end up with the same image many times because we find the subject and tell others about it. If you want to work a subject or an area and you feel a need to develop it more for your personal reasons, then go alone. Otherwise realize that your friend may end up with a very similar image and be prepared to let it go. Nothing is off limits. Photography should be an enjoyed escape. Don't put yourself into situations that can turn it into stress. Just my 2 cents....
I think I'm reading a story of two photographers that, one or both, need to get over themselves. If this is that important to your "friend", I don't think you were really friends. Life is short, get over it! Oh, and keep your photo posted.
Thanks for the feed back, and I agree life is too short for this kind of thing. But as I have never run into this before in my photography I wanted to know how others handle these grey areas of photography as I could not really find anything online . We must all run into similar experiences in the field of photography but it does not seem to get talked about much.
The other photographer in this situation has been an artist for many years and is new to photography so they think the same rules apply as for a painting as they do for photography. And I myself have been doing photography for a few years now as well as being a painter and think the two mediums are different when it comes to copyright and Plagiarism. I have no ill will towards them it is all apart of the journey of life. Friendship are made and lost and made again so are photo opps !
These musings of mine are more about individual ethics in the field more than who is right and who is wrong. More of a what is original ,what is plagiarism, ownership and such so we can learn from my experience and the newer photographers can learn as well how to deal with these things as they come up in their photography journey. The whole experience has been a very thought provoking exercise for me.
Discussion
13 repliesI will remove this image in a few days out of respect for a friendship I valued and lost. But I am curious where do you stand when out shooting with a friend . Is it first come so I own it and you can not photograph the same subject . Or is it a melding of creative ideas and energies that feed each others vision. Can two images shot by different photographers ,different camera, shooting styles , processing and lens truly be the same ? If one photographer never shares their images anywhere online and has no intention and one does is that plagiarism ? Can it be original art if it is never shared ? These are just thoughts , I don't know where I stand on this subject , this is the first time I have run into this in my time as a photographer .It is not a right or wrong thing as I have already lost either way as the other photographer decided to sever the friendship and I would like to know where you do if you care to share you thoughts.
Plagiarism, I believe, revolves around intent. If the image, piece of music, an essay, etc. was copied (this is the operative word) with the intent to call it one's own, this is plagiarism. If the image looks like someone else's, and was created by sheer accident. Then it's not plagiarism: it's happenstance.
A subject can be owned. For example, if I take a photo of my guitar, which I own, then I own the subject and the resulting image. If someone else takes a photo of my guitar, they own the image they created, but I still own the subject. By the same token, if someone deliberately created a photograph of my guitar that was identical to mine, they will be guilty of plagiarism and copyright because I own the intellectual right to the first-created image.
If someone photographs the same subject I am, I am not bothered by it. In fact the second sentence in the quote is the more likely scenario when I am out with friends. The 'melding of creative ideas' almost always results in a more artful photograph: And that's a good thing! When I am out with friends, we usually wander off to different places and make our photos of what we find. On occasion, we may photograph the same subject, but the images are different from one another because we see differently even if we're using nearly identical cameras and the same focal length lenses. We do try to not photograph the same subject, but sometimes, for example, photographing a group of cottonwood trees in Ahwahnee Meadow in Yosemite, it's unavoidable. In such a case, we're careful to not have a similar composition.
I believe you can't delete the images without deleting the thread. Leave it, there's no harm, in my opinion.
Lorna, you have raised some interesting questions that I hope others will offer their opinions on.
That's a nice abstract!
--P
I don't really want to defend or explain what happened ,this is just more about etiquette when shooting with another photographer or about what is original or not original.
If a fellow photographer thinks there is an unspoken understanding that you would not shoot the same subjects as they do . They tell a photo buddy hey I shot that last week does that mean you walk away from the subject ? But if that photographer says hey I shot that last week would you mind not taking that shot, hey totally cool.
It is a challenge to get the different image and that's what makes photography fun.
Perhaps plagiarism, but I do not think a copyright violation. You own the intellectual right to the image from your camera, but not the one from the other person. That is an independently created work using different equipment--it is not the same as yours. If what you say is true, then many images would violate copyright. For example, stars in the night sky (astrophotos): the light really does not change, and the entire sky has been imaged. Does that mean all new photographs, of say a galaxy, are now in copyright violation? No. No one owns the light reflected/emitted from a subject. Some have claimed copyright of certain things, for example, the lights on the Eiffel Tower, but one can still take an image of the city with the Eiffel Tower in the scene, and just because you set up your camera in a certain spot and made an image, and I come along a 10 minutes later and take the same scene does not mean you own the first rights. (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_Tower#Image_copyright_claims )
It would be nice to hear from a lawyer on this matter; I am not a lawyer.
Roger
Roger, no court in Canada would touch this for the reasons stated because every image would then be suspect of infringement and plagiarism. Not worried about that just what is the etiquette here as it seems such a grey area in photography.
A friend and I sometimes go out photo'ing together. I'm more landscape, she's more wildlife and macro. We do stay out of each others' way, but other than that, I can't imagine one of us thinking the other should NOT take a photo of the same thing.
I have secret places I go, and she does too, so yes, we don't try to go prying into things like that, but if you're somewhere together? We take pictures of the exact same thing all the time, then compare how our images turned out the next time we talk.
I have actually felt like I was stealing others' ideas sometimes, when I see an image or read about a certain type of image, and then I go try it, but that's how you learn. Everyone puts their own style on their photos, though. If something was out there in the open at the greenhouse, it would certainly seem to me that anyone could look at it and photograph it. Look at all the famous icons that get photographed every day. Was it the object, or the technique they thought was being plagiarized? Interesting subject!
so say your out with a photography buddy who thinks they are being an original artist by say photographing paint lines and you then happen to one day to photograph a cool paint line you just had to capture. Would you consider that subject off limits because you know your other photographer friend photographs these so it is taboo and the other photographer would consider this a stealing of their creative and artistic vision ,so just go photograph your flowers and stuff and leave my subject matter alone. I photograph it so there for you should never photograph the same thing because you are stealing my idea (yes I know how crazy this sounds).
The other photographer in this situation has been an artist for many years and is new to photography so they think the same rules apply as for a painting as they do for photography. And I myself have been doing photography for a few years now as well as being a painter and think the two mediums are different when it comes to copyright and Plagiarism. I have no ill will towards them it is all apart of the journey of life. Friendship are made and lost and made again so are photo opps !
These musings of mine are more about individual ethics in the field more than who is right and who is wrong. More of a what is original ,what is plagiarism, ownership and such so we can learn from my experience and the newer photographers can learn as well how to deal with these things as they come up in their photography journey. The whole experience has been a very thought provoking exercise for me.