Commenting on comments

Patricia and Preston have both made recent posts about the level of participation. I'd like to comment separately on the same subject, using my own recent experience as an example. My last image post, posted in the M&N forum one week ago today, has received 135 views and a whopping 2 comments. An image posted after mine in M&N has received 101 views with 1 comment. The M&N forum has five moderators, none of whom commented on either post. None of the 7 people who posted images in M&N after I did commented on my post. My own post to comment ratio is 18 to 1, which was nearly my ratio even before I became moderator of macro/cu two years ago, and is also nearly my ratio for non macro/cu image posts, which adds to my level of frustration. It seems that the majority of comments on images come generally from the same minority of members; that comments are "traded" between the same members; that the level and content of comments are influenced by name recognition; and that many members will only post and comment on images in a single forum, which often causes posting in, if not a technically an incorrect forum, at least in a forum that is not most appropriate; and that many members will only comment when they post an image of their own, which can lead to long delays in getting feedback on image posts. Living and shooting in the midwest, it is difficult to post landscape images that do not have a hand of man, but when images posted in this forum get 134 views and only 2 comments, posting frustration far exceeds posting benefit. IMO, it is unacceptable for an image to get 134 views and 2 comments. I had a number of other images I wanted to post in M&N, but I won't given this last result, and this is causing me to reevaluate my continued participation at NPN.

I have already commented on this topic in Preston's post in the landscape gallery. I wonder if he posted in this gallery because it it is the most popular and photos there receive the most comments and views. I would suggest two ideas. One, instead of going straight to your favorite gallery go to the "All Photos" gallery. Second, I would suggest that the landscape gallery allow a limited "hand of man" when the "hand of man" is minor to the landscape and not the focal point. I have seen beautiful landscapes in the Man and Nature gallery that received few views and comments where the "hand of man" was a fence or other minor object. Your point about the lack of moderator participation in commenting is well taken and more activity on their part would benefit all participants, but especially those who are looking to improve their work.

Scott, I agree with your sense of frustration at getting 140 views and 2 comments. Although not as dramatic, I have a post in WC that's had over 80 views in a week and only just got it's second comment. My initial reaction was, "How can this be (or something 'slightly' more dramatic)!". However, "after further review" I'm wondering about some other possible explanations.

1) It's a good reportorial shot, but it doesn't reach excellence because there's no special lighting, hence few comments.

2) While my description covers the why of the image, understanding why was easy for me, because I was there and had seen the upstream conditions. For someone who wasn't there, even reading my description may not have provided enough understanding plus understanding what an image is showing is very different from finding it exciting. It violates what seems to me to be an unwritten NPN tendency; "Images should be clean and easy to view.", but that's why I posted it in response to the challenge Nature Imperfect.

3) NPN is known for it's honest critiques, but I think those who do comment (speaking for myself, anyway) get tired of saying negative things, so they just don't respond....can you imagine yourself commenting "this is a nice image, nothing wrong, but nothing special"...neither can I.

That last statement brings me to what I see as a longer term problem for photography. Especially with the internet, there is the push for ever more drama either by finding new "undiscovered" locations or through advanced processing techniques. That shows up as last year's "great shot" with tons of comments becomes this year's "nice job" with few comments.

In terms of the "good shot" only comments, I think those are important, but one should add a little about why YOU like it. That helps the poster, the commenter, and outside viewers understand what goes into creating a great image.

I will admit to being one of those who goes to specific galleries rather than looking at the "all photos", so I do miss some good shots.

Allen, your suggestion is a good one, and I might take it a step further and do away with the M&N forum altogether. A landscape scene with a path, road, bridge, person, fence, etc., is still a landscape.

Mark, let's face it, I can't speak for avian and wildlife necessarily, but if it isn't posted in landscape, comments can be late, few, and far in between, and lack of views doesn't explain it all, as reflected in my example. I understand members focusing on the forums where they have the most interest or participation, but it is obvious that images in forums other than landscape get far fewer comments per view, and that commenting overall is inconsistent, to say the least.

Scott : I am one of those who post comments almost entirely in the galleries where I post myself. I guess my excuse is that I feel more comfortable commenting where I am myself putting up images for comment. However, I think your implicit suggestion that it would be good if people made comments across the galleries is a good one - one could perhaps learn to appreciate the full range of images here much better by going through the process of commenting. My early New Year resolution is to start doing that !!!

You also mention an instance of a lack of comments by the moderators. The great majority of moderators unquestionably do an excellent job, but I too have had experience of the odd exception. Obviously there are going to be times when moderators, like everyone else, are away from the site for perfectly good reasons. But, where there are several for a gallery, I think it is unfortunate if at least one is not available to comment with reasonable regularity,

Finally, I sincerely hope you will be continuing to participate in NPN for many years to come - your work and your comments are always much appreciated !!!!!

I'm hoping you don't let your frustration push you out of NPN, scott. We've already lost far too many excellent moderators. My participation has fallen off a bit due to some health issues but I always choose commenting on others posts over posting my own is time and energy are short. For that reason, and because I'm still trying to refine my skills, I am disappointed when I do post and only receive one or two comments. I've had some great mentors among NPN moderators and would strongly encourage the current ones to view there position as one of teaching and nurturing there forums as you do. Thanks for all your helpful comments and encouragement.

Thank you, Ian. I understand and have no issue with members who rarely comment in a forum where they rarely or never post images (although I have, over the years, posted many comments in the wildlife and avian forums even though I very rarely post there; anyone can have an opinion that a photograph is beautiful or outstanding, and I am sure that posters appreciate hearing from non forum regulars; I know I do). However, people do regularly or at least occasionally post in M&N, and seven members posted images in that forum (as of the time of my original topic post here) in the week after my M&N post without comment on my image. I stand by my original opinion that 134 views and 2 comments, and 101 views with 1 comment, reflects extremely poor member participation and I don't think there is any good reason for it.

Scott, you can add mine in MN forum with 99views and no comments.

Prashant, yours was the other image cited in my opening discussion. At that time, your image had 101 views with one comment.

Do we have any idea how many of the viewers are NPN members vs. non-members who cannot comment? This may or may not be part of the problem.

M & N and landscape really need to be combined here.
I don't post in M & N because there are so few comments.
I don't think any other website has this distinction. Having a path, a farmhouse, a road or whatever in a 14mm scene and defining that as a non landscape photo seems silly to me. They are more of a landscape than an abstract close up IMO.
I do not look at other forums than the one I post in. I don't think that is unusual.
I comment a lot in the forum I post in, more than 5 to 1 because I enjoy it and think it improves my own photography.
I think it can be self regulating, I don't know why people bother to comment on others who don't bother to participate.
Someone mentioned that the forums can be cliquish, but that is human nature, I do post on others who post on mine, why should I post on someone's photo when they don't take any time to post on other's work?
Most forums have these problems, good to remind people now and then but if people comment on other's who don't bother to comment, the forum will continue to have this problem. If a person is getting responses to their work without participating, they will continue to do that.

I think a lot is to be said on that topic, but for the moment, I just want to ask a question - regarding the moderator "issue". My understanding was that the moderators are there to solve any problems that arise, e.g. to move images to appropriate galleries, and of course, they comment once in a while, just like everybody else (I do realize that some moderators, including you, Scott, comment a lot, which is of course appreciated). But I was not aware that commenting is actually one of their "duties" as moderators. Can you shed a bit of light on that? Thx!

Peter, that may be a factor, but I don't think personally think this is a minor factor that doesn't really mitigate the issue.

Dan, I agree with much of what you say, including about the expectations of image posters who do not comment on the work of others. However, this can become circular, and exacerbate the problem. Moreover, when someone does venture into a different forum to post an image, and then receives few comments, this may discourage the poster to become more participatory in the forum in the future, which again leads to some of the issues raised here.

Basil, when I became moderator of macro/cu, I was asked by Jim to comment on images that are posted in that forum, particularly images that receive few comments. I don't think it is expected that are moderators comment on all images posted in the forum they moderate, although I generally do. Also, this "duty" is often or typically divided in forums with multiple moderators. The M&N moderators also moderate landscape (another reason to perhaps combine these categories), so they certainly would not be expected to comment on all images posted in both forums. I will also say that it is easy to fall behind or get sidetracked with work, personal issues, travel, internet accessibility, etc. However, I really don't see this as a "duty" as much as leading by example. Another thing I think moderators should do is encourage image posters to comment on the images of others. Of course, there is a fine line between encouragement and perceived criticism, but I think this is where it is important for moderators to first lead by example.

I've been reading this thread and the one in the Landscape forum that Preston started. Many good points attempting to address a recurring problem.

I wanted to share my thoughts on a couple of specific points.

Role of Moderators: from the posting Guidelines:

Role of Moderators

The primary role of moderators is to oversee forum activity to ensure smooth operation. They enforce the NPN Posting Guidelines and answer member questions on the use of the forums. Though they often post comments on member photos, they are not required to provide expert critique on every photo posted.

We invite you to post your comments on photos! Even if you do not feel "qualified" to critique an image, telling the photographer what it is that you like (or dislike) about an image in your own words is helpful and an important part of the image critique process! Learn more about The Art of Image Critique.

We recommend that you contact other image critique gallery participants using their email link to request comments on your photos.

NPN Staff Suggestion - For every photo you post, comment on at least five!

I do agree with Scott that Moderators can and should lead by example. I try to comment on at least 10 images before I post another image. I also spend time doing post processing on images for folks in an attempt to share some knowledge. But the reality is that EVERYONE needs to participate to make this work. It is NOT the job of the moderators to hold this together. We are volunteers and do this because we love photography.

I see new members join, start posting and not commenting. After about 10 images, I usually comment and encourage the poster to comment on other's work and read the guidelines that I quoted above. Some respond, others ignore, and others send me private e-mail that they don't understand my concern because they are new and don't feel qualified. To that I usually respond to read the "Art of Image Critique" http://www.naturephotographers.net/je1001-1.html

I've been involved in local photography clubs, and events for a long time. I've learned a tremendous amount by providing critiques. I'm a judge for the New Mexico State Fair photography competition. In that event I (and a panel of 4 others) judge about 1000 images every year. Some good, some mediocre and some just plain awful. Still each image is a learning experience because I have to be able to defend my score. What did I like or dislike. I'm not shy about being critical of images because I firmly believe people post to get honest critiques. I share my opinion (it's the only one I have ) . Folks don't have to agree, but I don't think people who really want to grow want to just hear "Great Shot" when it really isn't. I've run across a few former NPN members, and many others who really just wanted the "Great Shot" comments. My response to that is then go post on 500px or Flickr or Facebook. You'll get all of those that you want. You won't learn anything, but you'll feel better.

Like any other venture in life, the more you put in to something, the more you get out of it. NPN is like any community I've ever been involved in. There are folks who really engage and commit the time and effort to make the community better, and there are those who don't. We'll never get everyone to fully commit. It would be very cool if there were more folks here who committed a bit more time and energy to making this community stronger. Challenge yourself to push your involvement up even a little.

I guess enough from my soapbox..... I'm off to comment on a couple of images, then spend time with family.

Folks ..

Here is my take. Have been with NPN for few years now. This forum helped me develop my photography, with the constructive comments on my images. I have been able to, over a period of time able to specialize into Macro and Close up. Having said that, what best I am doing is to comment on as may images outside of the Macro forum.

Having said that, the best is to contribute as much as possible, in the form of comments, and by posting images.

Lets join hands and make this family work...

Balan Vinod

Does anyone think that having sections in the comment entry area, such as a field for composition, one for use of light, etc. would be a helpful guide in providing useful critique?

I think that it might be, as opposed to having to construct a complete critique from scratch.

Jim, just as a suggestion and my 2 cents after reading most all the latest threads on the various ideas for improvement here.

Maybe take input from senior staff and that being primarily the moderators to review the suggestions being offered up. For the most part there are at least 3 or 4 threads at this point. Your present questions above may not be seen by those who might think it would be a good idea.

Once a list of say 10 to 15 key points are made place a post in the NPN Discussion Forum and lock it in place. The idea would be that members could then see constructive ideas that fit in budgetary abilities if required or other requested thoughts. I hate to use the word 'survey", but if it gets things narrowed a bit and to the point it might make it easier and a bit more concise. At that time members could place importance factor to the list on a per item basis.

For example: Would changing the background color for image reviews in the galleries work better as White, Black, Or Gray? or other thoughts here.

For example: Would allowing posted images only appear after the member has met a 5 to 1 ratio? or other thoughts here.

I only use these examples as I know they have been mentioned before.Obviously any changes out of budget should not be on the list and would be pie in the sky. But, certain things might be fairly easy and not out of line. Possibly leave one spot on the list for open input or ideas too. Not to make it unending, but try to see if something important was not on the "survey" list.

Again, just a thought as the present lists are open threads with a variety of thoughts going on.

Jim : an interesting suggestion which could be worth a try. Personally, though, I like constructing comments from scratch and feel you might sometimes struggle to make a specific comment about, for example, the use of light, if the main interest of the image lay elsewhere, and so not comment at all.

I wonder if a simple reminder at the head of each gallery that members are welcome/encouraged to make comments would have any effect ?

Jim, having watched forms get ever longer and more complex, I am not a fan of adding fields. Some of that is because I expect that many folks would think that saying something in each field is required, which strikes me as even more intimidating. I do think that the idea is a good one, so my suggestion is to be more specific in the second sentence above the current comment box. A related thought would be to add another sentence about commenting and include a link to the two photo critique pages under the Instruction menu.

Mark, I agree that would be an easy and useful addition.

These are interesting suggestions. I do have some suggestions myself.

First, I would require (encourage) a forum moderator in each forum to review the image posts on a daily basis (this duty obviously can be divided in forums with more than one moderator). If the moderator can't do this for some reason, he/she should make other arrangements, perhaps even appoint a "temporary" moderator to moderate in his/her absence. If an image has no comments after 24 hours, the moderator should be expected to comment him/herself. Nothing worse than an image going days w/o any comments.

Next, consider implementing an actual forum post to comment ratio for all moderators - e.g., every forum moderator is expected to comment on at least 50% of the posts in the forum. I know moderators don't get paid, but I don't think this is too onerous, except maybe for landscape, where the % can be less. I haven't really thought out the numbers, and there may be better alternatives such as a raw # of comment targets per year or month for moderaotrs.

Next, enforce the forum standards/guidelines. If an image is posted in the wrong forum, it should be moved or deleted (with instructions to the poster to re-post in the correct forum if they want) within 24 hours. This would eventually encourage members to post, review, and comment in more than one forums.

Next, look at the forums and the standards/guidelines, and consider revising them as appropriate or necessary. In this regard, I have two sub-suggestions. First, consider combining macro and flora into one category. Call it "Flora and Macro/CU." Sometimes, these forums get one or fewer posts a day. Many members only comment when they post. This can result in comments in these forums being few and far between in the days after a post. Combining them into one forum would mitigate this.

I personally would also eliminate the Man & Nature category and/or substantially revise the landscape standards. As I have opined before, a landscape is a landscape whether it contains a road, path, fence, or person. It is kind of incongrous that a close up of ice or leaves or rocks is allowed to remain in landscape, but an actual landscape image that contains a path or distant fence or even a person on a distant sand dune doesn't belong in the landscape forum.

Next, I would consider giving recognition to people who comment "above and beyond" and help make NPN what it is. One thought I had would be for NPN to award or recognize a forum "Contributor of the Year" for each forum which takes into consideration their contributions to the forum in terms of both posting and commenting, or maybe just commenting. The moderators would consider both quantity and quality of comments (such as detailed comments or taking time out to instruct or mentor in positive ways) made over the course of the year in each forum. In this regard, it might be helpful to have a yearly (e.g., 2015) or 12 month running post/comment count so moderators and others can see members' current activity.

Last, and maybe least, I would exclude commenting on one's own photo as counting toward the person's comment total, if that can be practically done. I see members who post an image and then comment after each comment. Nothing wrong with that of course except that it is my understanding, and I could be wrong, that this "counts" in the poster's comment total. I don't think commenting on your photo should count.

I am not wedded to any of these suggestions. They are just suggestions and more food for thought/discussion. A majority of members might not agree with these suggestions, or they may not be practical. On reconsideration or discussion, I may not even think they're any good. Or there may be refinements that could make these suggestions much better and useful.

Next, consider implementing an actual forum post to comment ratio for all moderators - e.g., every forum moderator is expected to comment on at least 50% of the posts in the forum. I know moderators don't get paid, but I don't think this is too onerous, except maybe for landscape, where the % can be less. I haven't really thought out the numbers, and there may be better alternatives such as a raw # of comment targets per year or month for moderaotrs.

I don't think this is feasible for several galleries. I just took a quick look. In Macro if I go to page 10 I'm back to the first of January. In Avian if I go to page 10, I'm back to August. Clearly volume per gallery is varied. I'm not convinced that moderators should have some required number of comments. I'd love to hear other's thoughts. I know I don't comment on anywhere close to 50% of the Avian images. I do however spend a good deal of time doing post processing on images for others and conversing either in the forum or via e-mail. The issue to me is not that the moderators have some special responsibility on commenting. Yes, we should (all moderators) comment on images to be a part of the community and enforce the rules, but I don't see any reason to place any additional burden on moderators for commenting above and beyond any other member of NPN.

Reading your concerns about future directions with NP, I must post some positive outcome, regarding my experience with NP. After being absence for a few years, due to financial and health issues, I have been following to view NP as a none member driving-up the views without being able to comment on photos. Since I have been able to participate again, I tried to carry my commitment to comment again. I do admit, it is hard to comment on a photo in which you have not much interest in. In my opinion, I treasure one honest criticism more than 100 “good job” comments. I been very fortunate to get many good guidance criticism and have improved my way of looking at subjects and post processing. I appreciate your self critique to improve NP in the future. NP is still the best place to improve yourself with photography. I have posted on flickr and have thousands of views with not EVEN ONE comment.
“People Seldom Improve When They Have No Other Model But Themselves To Copy After” –Gold Smith
Keep-up the good work – Scott – do not Quit! We all need people like you!