With drones (UAV) equiped with cameras becoming more popular by the day, I think this is a good time to bring the topic of their use by photographers up for discussion.
I know that the members here act responsibly when out in the field, but some recent incidents of drone use near fires is what prompted me to write about it.
On the 17th of July, five drones were observed flying near a major wildland fire in the mountains between San Bernadino, CA and Las Vegas, NV along I-15. The joint command on the fire was forced to suspend air operations for a time until the drones left the area. More here and here.
Obviously, it is very dangerous to have drones near a fire due to the possibility that a firefighting aircraft could collide with the drone. This not only puts aircraft and flight crews at extreme risk, such activity hampers the safety of the public and responding firefighters.
Upon request from incident command, the FAA will institute a TFR (Temporary Flight Restriction) near the fire (or other type of incident). When a TFR is issued, all civilian aircraft are prohibited from entering the restricted airspace. There are heavy fines, and possibly jail time for violators.
While it can be tempting to operate a UAV near a fire to get dramatic photos, it is illegal and dangerous.
Have you had any experiences with people flying drones while you are in the field? Do you fly one yourself?
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.
I don't own one and have never flown radio-controlled aircraft, but these small drones I find intriguing. I understand that for a manned aircraft to hit even a bird can be dangerous, but the drones I have seen sold to the public are very small and light. I would think that unless it hit an aircraft propeller, the chances of the aircraft sustaining any damage that would endanger the crew would be unlikely.
But then again, I don't know much about the subject so this all all speculation on my part. After all, a piece of foam insulation hitting the space shuttle was responsible for its eventual demise...
Some of the dangers these vehicles pose to aircraft are:
Ingested into a jet engine; causing turbofan, compressor and/or turbine damage
Deformation of flight control surfaces; such as flaps, ailerons, rudders
Damage to a main or tail rotor on a helicopter
Damage to, or penetration of a windshield
When I was in the Air Force, a small buzzard went through a jet's windshield and killed a pilot. The bird's weight was estimated at 2 pounds. A plastic and metal drone, though small and light, could wreck havoc.
I think the concerns of the fire agencies, the military, and the FAA are well warranted, and it behooves users act responsibly.
Preston, this subject is very timely with the recent events in the Cajon Pass the site most recently effected by the drone usages. Overall I know you worked on a lot of aircraft and understand the Achilles heel they are subjected to with much that you've listed. The items are easy enough to understand as outlined so far as mechanical issues. Throw in the mix the human issues that could arise by a pilot being surprised by the event and what hard maneuvers they might subject the aircraft to in trying to avoid a collision. I can recall an air show in France where a Russian SST went down to such an event. The pilot was surprised by an aircraft taking video of the SST, basically spying on it, when the pilot made a drastic turn that he could not recover from and crashed.
I'm all for drone usage for a variety of reasons, including recreational. But I have witnessed enough bad encounters on the news now to be overly concerned as to what will change things, a serious accident? I classify folks who use lasers for all the wrong reasons among the folks who would fall into the similar category as careless use of drones.
I'm sure they will no doubt make their way into our national parks at some point and be an annoyance if not a dangerous item filling those airways.
Posted by D.A. Edwards on July 20, 2015 at 3:34 PM
Drones are already an issue in the national parks, Paul, such as this incident in Yellowstone last year despite a ban on the activity:
Dave, thanks for sharing the link. Thinking back, I do have a bit of recall on that item. It must have been on my list with all the other park related damage over the last couple years now. Including the multitude of graffiti attacks and the tumbling of sandstone formations and such. Seems like folks just can't go to the parks for the view anymore.
There was a near miss with an airline recently and per the article, those are becoming more and more common. When viewed in conjunction with the firefighting plane issues, I think they should just be banned. They create too much of a hazard and ALL people cannot be relied on to use them responsibly. The few are ruining it for the many, but they are just too dangerous when those few abuse them.
I own and opperate a small multirotor drone that has an integrated camera. I have not used this commercially yet because the FAA is still trying to establidsh the rules for their use for commercial use. The FAA has allowed the hobbist use of drones for personal use and no cpommercial purposes. I choose to buy a drone so I could practice flying it and using iis as a photographic platform in hopes that when the FAA get the rules establish I will already be proficient at operating the drone and capturing photos. First I will say still photos from a small drome really open up far more creative opportunities than I ever imagined.
Drones as with most advances in technology and products will bring lots of good opportunities along wiht potential for abuse by the usual knuckle heads. Since all drone use at the present is limited to hobbiest ( except a very few commercail companies who have applied for and gotten a waiver) I expect that to be the part of drone operators where you will find the largest number of knucklehead. These people can already use a drone up to an altitude of 400 ft and outside the restricted airspace around airports known as class B airspce. There is also usually a restriciction on drones flying over events just as regular aircraft frequently have that kind of temporary restriction as well. The issue that will also cause angst will be that the FAA will regulate who can fly a drone, the basics of how the drone is operated, but the rules about where you fly it will be left up to the states (federal property excepted). example what if you fly the drone over your backyard and take a picture someone in their back yard next door?
You can write volumes about this issues around drone use but I have been impressed by the creative possibilitiesI have seen and I have the feeling I have only scratched the surface.
Yosemite National Park advises visitors that the use of Unmanned Aircraft Systems (Drones) are prohibited within park boundaries due to regulations outlined in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). Specifically, the use of drones within the park boundaries is illegal under all circumstances.
In May of 2014, I was sitting in my chair at Swinging Bridge in Yosemite playing my guitar for a mallard, a ground squirrel, and a Stellar's jay, when I heard this awful buzzing. At first, I thought it was car alarm, but then I saw the drone hovering above the bridge. I was just about to walk over when a half dozen people walked up to the man flying the drone and told him to land the thing. Somewhat coincidentally, this was the same weekend drones were officially banned in the park.
I can certainly see the utility of drones in certain situations when they are being flown by skilled operators on a specific mission approved by the FAA. However, 'hobby' drones should be regulated (education and a license?) in order to provide for the public's safety and right to privacy.
Paul, I agree that, aside from possible damage to an aircraft, a pilot being forced to take evasive action can be as deadly as an impact.
Although I did not include the link here the YouTube video from last night's news broadcast shows latest drone with an attached 9mm shooting by wireless remote. Yes, the drones are starting to reach the laser type crowd mentioned previously PDQ.......
I suspect possibly a future news broadcast will have a drone "flyby" shooting instead of the old conventional "driveby" at some point. Good luck seeing the make model and aircraft ID # on that one before it disappears.
I saw that video, too, Paul. Pretty scary. Another U-Tube video I saw, that was made in Russia, showed a drone with a machine gun mounted on it! Yikes!
Also, just yesterday, air operations were curtailed for a short time on a fire near Auburn, CA. Some structures were threatened, and an outbuilding was destroyed, but fortunately, there were no injuries.
Unfortunalely, there will have to a be tragedy before real action is taken against these kinds of knuckle-heads.
I do a fair amount of filming on the side for documentary use. I shoot underwater and land 3D and 2D, and also use a drone for 2D aerial shots. I've been working on filming for movies with drones for some years now.
10 years ago we hired a helicopter with a gyro mount to do all of our aerial fiming down in Baja, Mexico. The permit and insurance fees to get the helicopter into Mexico alone were huge. The cost was roughly $30,000 a day for the pilot and craft. We could afford to spend about two weeks doing this. The footage was spectacular. Contrast to today...a few months ago I went again down to Baja to work on a newer film. My $3000 drone was checked with my baggage for the flight down. Mexican customs just smiled and asked some nice questions, but otherwise no issues at all. I spent six weeks filming aerials in remote canyons, off of boats, hovering over the surf while millions of anchovies swam underneath...( the flexibility of a small drone can do things that a helicopter never could) using a small 4K camera. The final cost of this adventure was a small fraction of what it was using a helicopter just a few years ago, even with my Tequila bill included. The footage was also fantastic. It's just another tool really, and one that opens up tremendous opportunities for the professional or the aspiring, sensible young person. Yeah some kids flew them in Yellowstone and around airplanes. People do stupid things.
In fact they are very easy to use. I'm surprised that more NPN'ers don't try one out, and I suspect some are. You can literally be flying well with an hour of practice and no previous experience. Ban them? Not gonna happen. The government was a little unprepared but will get some rules in place eventually. The use of drones is rapidly becoming a big segment of all outdoor filming and are used for a multitude of professions. This is a technology that lets you do things that were just not possible before. It's not going away.
As photographers all of us here want to develop our sense of what is artistic. Most here have been at it for a lot of years and are experienced and good at it. You can do the same thing with a drone. For those professionals out there that make their living as photographers, adding the ability to offer drone filming or snapshots is something that you will be good at, and can make money with. It's one of those things that is competing heavily with standard photography in the media these days, and more and more people seem to want to see video (especially those of cats, lol). Youtube is every bit as popular as Flikr.
If we banned every technology that "could" cause an accident ie. guns, boats, cars, fireworks, alcohol, dirtbikes, etc., etc., it sure wouldn't be much fun around here anymore.
This is a technology that lets you do things that were just not possible before. It's not going away.
I totally agree, Charlie. And, I'm not sure folks are really against them as much as the crazies that have access to them and how they use them. No different then guns, lasers, fireworks, or many other items being used by folks out to do wrong. With drones it will be a bit more on the annoying side then destructive in most cases. But, there are things that can go real wrong if their not used properly too.
Discussion
12 repliesWith drones (UAV) equiped with cameras becoming more popular by the day, I think this is a good time to bring the topic of their use by photographers up for discussion.
I know that the members here act responsibly when out in the field, but some recent incidents of drone use near fires is what prompted me to write about it.
On the 17th of July, five drones were observed flying near a major wildland fire in the mountains between San Bernadino, CA and Las Vegas, NV along I-15. The joint command on the fire was forced to suspend air operations for a time until the drones left the area. More here and here.
Obviously, it is very dangerous to have drones near a fire due to the possibility that a firefighting aircraft could collide with the drone. This not only puts aircraft and flight crews at extreme risk, such activity hampers the safety of the public and responding firefighters.
Upon request from incident command, the FAA will institute a TFR (Temporary Flight Restriction) near the fire (or other type of incident). When a TFR is issued, all civilian aircraft are prohibited from entering the restricted airspace. There are heavy fines, and possibly jail time for violators.
While it can be tempting to operate a UAV near a fire to get dramatic photos, it is illegal and dangerous.
Have you had any experiences with people flying drones while you are in the field? Do you fly one yourself?
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.
--P
I don't own one and have never flown radio-controlled aircraft, but these small drones I find intriguing. I understand that for a manned aircraft to hit even a bird can be dangerous, but the drones I have seen sold to the public are very small and light. I would think that unless it hit an aircraft propeller, the chances of the aircraft sustaining any damage that would endanger the crew would be unlikely.
But then again, I don't know much about the subject so this all all speculation on my part. After all, a piece of foam insulation hitting the space shuttle was responsible for its eventual demise...
Jim,
Some of the dangers these vehicles pose to aircraft are:
When I was in the Air Force, a small buzzard went through a jet's windshield and killed a pilot. The bird's weight was estimated at 2 pounds. A plastic and metal drone, though small and light, could wreck havoc.
I think the concerns of the fire agencies, the military, and the FAA are well warranted, and it behooves users act responsibly.
--P
Preston, this subject is very timely with the recent events in the Cajon Pass the site most recently effected by the drone usages. Overall I know you worked on a lot of aircraft and understand the Achilles heel they are subjected to with much that you've listed. The items are easy enough to understand as outlined so far as mechanical issues. Throw in the mix the human issues that could arise by a pilot being surprised by the event and what hard maneuvers they might subject the aircraft to in trying to avoid a collision. I can recall an air show in France where a Russian SST went down to such an event. The pilot was surprised by an aircraft taking video of the SST, basically spying on it, when the pilot made a drastic turn that he could not recover from and crashed.
I'm all for drone usage for a variety of reasons, including recreational. But I have witnessed enough bad encounters on the news now to be overly concerned as to what will change things, a serious accident? I classify folks who use lasers for all the wrong reasons among the folks who would fall into the similar category as careless use of drones.
I'm sure they will no doubt make their way into our national parks at some point and be an annoyance if not a dangerous item filling those airways.
Drones are already an issue in the national parks, Paul, such as this incident in Yellowstone last year despite a ban on the activity:
http://time.com/3433295/yellowstone-drone-crash/
Dave, thanks for sharing the link. Thinking back, I do have a bit of recall on that item. It must have been on my list with all the other park related damage over the last couple years now. Including the multitude of graffiti attacks and the tumbling of sandstone formations and such. Seems like folks just can't go to the parks for the view anymore.
There was a near miss with an airline recently and per the article, those are becoming more and more common. When viewed in conjunction with the firefighting plane issues, I think they should just be banned. They create too much of a hazard and ALL people cannot be relied on to use them responsibly. The few are ruining it for the many, but they are just too dangerous when those few abuse them.
Hi Preston,
I own and opperate a small multirotor drone that has an integrated camera. I have not used this commercially yet because the FAA is still trying to establidsh the rules for their use for commercial use. The FAA has allowed the hobbist use of drones for personal use and no cpommercial purposes. I choose to buy a drone so I could practice flying it and using iis as a photographic platform in hopes that when the FAA get the rules establish I will already be proficient at operating the drone and capturing photos. First I will say still photos from a small drome really open up far more creative opportunities than I ever imagined.
Drones as with most advances in technology and products will bring lots of good opportunities along wiht potential for abuse by the usual knuckle heads. Since all drone use at the present is limited to hobbiest ( except a very few commercail companies who have applied for and gotten a waiver) I expect that to be the part of drone operators where you will find the largest number of knucklehead. These people can already use a drone up to an altitude of 400 ft and outside the restricted airspace around airports known as class B airspce. There is also usually a restriciction on drones flying over events just as regular aircraft frequently have that kind of temporary restriction as well. The issue that will also cause angst will be that the FAA will regulate who can fly a drone, the basics of how the drone is operated, but the rules about where you fly it will be left up to the states (federal property excepted). example what if you fly the drone over your backyard and take a picture someone in their back yard next door?
You can write volumes about this issues around drone use but I have been impressed by the creative possibilitiesI have seen and I have the feeling I have only scratched the surface.
Yosemite Drone Notice
In May of 2014, I was sitting in my chair at Swinging Bridge in Yosemite playing my guitar for a mallard, a ground squirrel, and a Stellar's jay, when I heard this awful buzzing. At first, I thought it was car alarm, but then I saw the drone hovering above the bridge. I was just about to walk over when a half dozen people walked up to the man flying the drone and told him to land the thing. Somewhat coincidentally, this was the same weekend drones were officially banned in the park.
I can certainly see the utility of drones in certain situations when they are being flown by skilled operators on a specific mission approved by the FAA. However, 'hobby' drones should be regulated (education and a license?) in order to provide for the public's safety and right to privacy.
Paul, I agree that, aside from possible damage to an aircraft, a pilot being forced to take evasive action can be as deadly as an impact.
Thank you all for your comments.
--P
Although I did not include the link here the YouTube video from last night's news broadcast shows latest drone with an attached 9mm shooting by wireless remote. Yes, the drones are starting to reach the laser type crowd mentioned previously PDQ.......
I suspect possibly a future news broadcast will have a drone "flyby" shooting instead of the old conventional "driveby" at some point. Good luck seeing the make model and aircraft ID # on that one before it disappears.
I saw that video, too, Paul. Pretty scary. Another U-Tube video I saw, that was made in Russia, showed a drone with a machine gun mounted on it! Yikes!
Also, just yesterday, air operations were curtailed for a short time on a fire near Auburn, CA. Some structures were threatened, and an outbuilding was destroyed, but fortunately, there were no injuries.
Unfortunalely, there will have to a be tragedy before real action is taken against these kinds of knuckle-heads.
--P
I do a fair amount of filming on the side for documentary use. I shoot underwater and land 3D and 2D, and also use a drone for 2D aerial shots. I've been working on filming for movies with drones for some years now.
10 years ago we hired a helicopter with a gyro mount to do all of our aerial fiming down in Baja, Mexico. The permit and insurance fees to get the helicopter into Mexico alone were huge. The cost was roughly $30,000 a day for the pilot and craft. We could afford to spend about two weeks doing this. The footage was spectacular. Contrast to today...a few months ago I went again down to Baja to work on a newer film. My $3000 drone was checked with my baggage for the flight down. Mexican customs just smiled and asked some nice questions, but otherwise no issues at all. I spent six weeks filming aerials in remote canyons, off of boats, hovering over the surf while millions of anchovies swam underneath...( the flexibility of a small drone can do things that a helicopter never could) using a small 4K camera. The final cost of this adventure was a small fraction of what it was using a helicopter just a few years ago, even with my Tequila bill included. The footage was also fantastic. It's just another tool really, and one that opens up tremendous opportunities for the professional or the aspiring, sensible young person. Yeah some kids flew them in Yellowstone and around airplanes. People do stupid things.
In fact they are very easy to use. I'm surprised that more NPN'ers don't try one out, and I suspect some are. You can literally be flying well with an hour of practice and no previous experience. Ban them? Not gonna happen. The government was a little unprepared but will get some rules in place eventually. The use of drones is rapidly becoming a big segment of all outdoor filming and are used for a multitude of professions. This is a technology that lets you do things that were just not possible before. It's not going away.
As photographers all of us here want to develop our sense of what is artistic. Most here have been at it for a lot of years and are experienced and good at it. You can do the same thing with a drone. For those professionals out there that make their living as photographers, adding the ability to offer drone filming or snapshots is something that you will be good at, and can make money with. It's one of those things that is competing heavily with standard photography in the media these days, and more and more people seem to want to see video (especially those of cats, lol). Youtube is every bit as popular as Flikr.
If we banned every technology that "could" cause an accident ie. guns, boats, cars, fireworks, alcohol, dirtbikes, etc., etc., it sure wouldn't be much fun around here anymore.
I totally agree, Charlie. And, I'm not sure folks are really against them as much as the crazies that have access to them and how they use them. No different then guns, lasers, fireworks, or many other items being used by folks out to do wrong. With drones it will be a bit more on the annoying side then destructive in most cases. But, there are things that can go real wrong if their not used properly too.