Badlands, Death Valley NP. Very tough exposure from the top of a ridge about half a mile from Zabriskie Point. Sunrise might have been better to show off the textured ridges, but I also liked this sunset image using the direct light in the distance to compliment the landscape. 3-stop hard and 2-stop soft grads. EOS 5D, 24mm, 100ISO, F22. Thanks for any comments and suggestions.
That is a very tough exposure - it's a different take on this scene iconic spot of soil. I miss more shadow details to give more depth to the expanse of land - I also think the color of the FG mountiains could be a bit warmer. I probably went too warm on my shots when I was there, but this seems a bit colder than I remember it looking in person (althought it is more ambient light instead of direct light)......
John, I think what you meant might be less shadow details. The shadows here are very detailed, which is also my primary critique of the shot. It lacks contrasts due to the angle of the lighting. Better contrasts could be obtained in different light. All I can say about the warmth is that this is certainly warmer than it was in person. I actually added a warming 81A in PS and increased color temperature to 7200.
The "usual/typical" shot of this location has the bright light on the tips of Zabriskie Point with dark shadows around some of the cliff faces next to it - so the shadow detail I'm thinking about is larger scale shadows which are missing for me here... I totally agree with Erik that the composition is awesome but it looks different without the larger scale shadows.... it's a different look. I like it
How is it an image gets 100 views on the PNWNP forum and only two comments anyway? Who are these people? I didn't think we even had half that many members?! Maybe just guests or multiple views? But few comments, few suggestions, few opinions. John and Eric, thanks a lot guys. 2 out of a 100.
Well I've never been to the Badlands and so I don't have any preconceived ideas about what this is "supposed to look like" and as an artist I have to say that I really hate it when viewers bring preconceived ideas to a piece. I'm not a photographer so I can't say whether it should be "warmed up" or not. I really like this shot. I also like the very subtle warm/cool contrast of the background mountains and sky against the desolate foreground. It works for me.
Jeez, Marc, your stuff is so good I wish you would bag the sun star thing. This photo is so nice but then the sunstar puts it into the photo art/trite catagory for me.
Nothing easy about capturing sun-stars Mark. Many of the best landscape photographers in history have used them to add extra impact to a scene. I can respect that they are not for everyone though. I have several images shot from here without one. Actually, once the sun went behind those hills, there was a nice 'sunburst' from behind that also made a nice compliment to the foreground.
Marc, your work continues to grab me when I see it. The desert, to me, always lacks contrast but that's its nature. The warm tone is what I'd expect at sunset in this type of setting. I also enyoy the repeated motif of cracks I see - the small cracks in the dried soil in the bottom of the wash (lower left moving up to the right), repeated by the larger "crack" of the wash zig-zagging through the frame then repeated the largest "crack' between the light colored ridge to the dark mountains in the background.
My problem with this image is the mass of overly dark clouds in the upper right hand corner. I think they're the result of the ND filters but maybe unavoidable because of the intense brightness of the sun. I'm curious what this scene might have looked like shortly after the sunset when less filtering may have been needed.
(1) Mark, do you want quantity or quality in the replies? I can increase the total quantity by one anyway....
(2) I vote firmly ambivalent about the sunstars. Yes, they're hard to capture well; yes, looking at half a dozen sunstar images all at once gets a bit overwhelming.....Remember the time you posted the desert image with no sun at all, and then in the discussion you posted a sunstar variation of the same image? Both compelling images, but if I remember rightly you found the non-sunstar variation preferable.....
(3) You are such an absolute master of the ND filters, the virtuosity there is amazing;
(4) I don't mind the sky at all;
(5) The "unwarmed" tone here tells me that its about to get cold at nightfall in the desert. A little shiver is vivid and, quite possibly, even literally accurate. Maybe the warm tone works better with shadows, and, as I see it, part of the message of this photo is that there aren't any shadows.
Marc, I only recently discovered your photography, and I must say you have become one of my favorites. I compliment you and this great image considering the dificult lighting conditions. I agree with a previous post that the impending night chill is implied in this shot. Anymore warming would probably took fake.
I visited this same place two years ago and captured a panorama of this same view from below Manly Beacon on a hike up one canyon from the valley floor and down the next to the south. My pano image is at:
http://www.pbase.com/csully/image/39945654/original
Your viewpoint is to the left of mine. The rounded hill and peak on the ridge are reversed in my image.
Thanks for sharing, it brought back warm memories for me.
Marc,
This is an interesting landscape, and overall I have to say I like it. I'll throw at you my opinions here, about the image and views/critiques ration.
I think that there is a time and a place for sunstars. I'm a sucker for them and I like most of your coast and mountain images with this effect, but since this is an effect most people use rarely...when you do it so much, it tends to make your sunrise/sunset images all seem alike.
Now, Lynne is right. Each image must be judged on it's own merit...not comparing it to a group...like I stated in one of your recent posts. So let me critique this one.
I like the forground, although I do wish to see more seperation between the crags and fingers. The sunstar thing doesn't work here...I think the proper sky to be used is actually 10-20 minutes later, with more of a gradient feel. Of course, your not into this yet...but the absolute perfect time for this particular landscape is upon a full moon, behind you if possible...and some star trails streaking across the sky...this would give you a serious identity crisis...not knowing if you were on earth or another planet. That's the images I see from this landscape, making it the best it can be. The sunstar just doesn't fit into this image, mainly because of the overall lighting....but I do really like the warm tones you created here. I think that works very well.
This isn't a dud image, so dont feel discouraged or attacked with the critiques here. Now, as for the views/comments ratio, here's my take on it.
1. For some reason, people jump all over your images when they are really good. In my opinion, they should be shamed for giving you 35 comments when the next one down the list only has one or 2. When they are not up to your normal standard the "ring kissers" are too afraid to comment in the "constructive critique" area...for fear that they may...what...not become a Timecatcher or something...or that they respect you so much, that they just dont want to offend you and take the silent route instead...We'll never really know this...but I am sure the dynamic is all over the board here.
2. I've seen you ask for critiques, and of course you love the great feedback...we all do...it substantiates our art. When you've gotten some constructive critiques in the past, you've been very polite...but still rebutted with "I did it this way for a reason" or "I disagree". Reacting in this manor makes you actually look like you dont want constructive feedback, or dont care as much of our viewpoints for whatever reason. Instead...just soak in the comments, and thank everyone craciously (not that you dont do this at all).
I think we can all grow from listening to everybody's viewpoint, and thanking them for the time they took to respond to a request. We all should not always rely upon photographers to critique our images. We tend to be too technical instead of just feeling the images. I'm just as guilty as anybody here, and is something I still struggle with. My best advice has sometimes come from people like Lynne...they judge on feeling first and formost. I wish we had more artists like her, helping us with our images...
3. I've been rather bothered lately by the lack of critiques myself...not just in our local wing, but in all the forums on this site. The people who need it the most, only get one comment...maybe 3 or 4, but that is it. how are they to grow? I try to make a personal point lately, to post at least 4 critiques to the lowest number of critique'd images...to every one I post. Sure, it's not easy to critique those without fear of hurting someone...but my thoughts are that they asked for the help and they should appreciate any comments that would make their work better.
4. Another reason for lack of critiques; you dont know the history here, but this forum has gone through some bad times in the past 3 years. Some personalities just dont click here, and we are all sorta gunshy to head back down the road of decay, during a time when we all want to just enjoy our hobby/art/passion/profession and see this froum get along.
I wish it were cut and dry here, but I feel your pain. Nobody...and I mean nobody here likes to be snubbed on a post. I mean all of this in the best of intentions and hope my poor communication skills are not misinterpreted as an attack. If anything here needs clarification, please call me at 503.260.6495.
I say again, as I have in the past...with everyone lurking here...dont be afraid to comment on ANYONE'S image...whether it be this hack, or even Marc's images. Be a curtious forum participant and provide your input if there is less than 6 comments on a post. I dont think that would be unreasonable. I greatly miss some of the past participants involvment here...dont give up...you dont need to make a grand re-entry...just a comment here and there would be great. And then even perhaps it would be nice to see an image from you eventually...
I really like the sun star effect - maybe that is because I suck at making my own up to this point still. I think the comment about the FG cliffs being to bright might be a very good observation. Something somewhere just doesn't look the way I would expect it to look if I was standing there... 5 stops is a lot of tonal difference and possibly brought the FG up to a brightness level higher than I'm accoustomed to seeing ?? Just thinking out loud a bit.
I am with you Marc on the comment to view ratio. I think what happens on many of the forums (not just this one) is that people really don't know what to say and only gush if something really resonates with them..... frustrating, yes.... but if they don't have what they feel to be a helpful suggestion, they just stay in the shadows.
I, for one, looked at it four times before I decided to comment. For me is it sometimes takes time for me to identify how I feel about a photo and develop what I want to say.
I can understand that Mark. Thanks for your input. Rick, wow. Seriously man. You bored today? I appreciate it though. I hear and understand what you're saying. All I can say is that there is a very fine line between trying to stimulate a meaningful discussion of opinions and rebutting someones critique, which it should never sound like I do. I say time and time again that I appreciate all well meaning critiques and if I disagree or say "I did it this way for this reason" I hope that people can understand all I'm trying to do is stimulate a discussion of methods, techniques and artistic preferences so everyone can gain something as a photographer. When I give a critique, I usually expect at least someone to disagree at some point and I sure hope they tell me why. I'd love to know and never want to stop learning. I'll never let it become an argument. I never push my views on people and never claim I'm right and someone else is wrong. It's just art afterall. In the end you learn a lot more if opinions can be exchanged in the process of critique. Good thing I have a similar image without the sunstar!
Good thing I have a similar image without the sunstar!
It's a good thing if YOU think it's a good thing. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean diddly. If I made you think about it, and you've decided that you and your art are firmly behind it, then great. If you have (and it seems like you are) confidence in your art, you certainly don't have to impress me.
I had an art teacher who used to say "you pay your money and you make your choice".
lol...sorta! I meant to just put a simple paragraph together...but then I just couldn't stop my fingers...
I know you're trying to stimulate a discussion and have no ill intentions. Heck, I could have just imagined that from a comment you made in which I probably misread. My memory aint what it used to be! I'm glad you took no offense...
& BTW....;I think Marc's got a good point.....when the poster receives criticism with a response....."I did it that way because..."....the dialogue shouldn't end there, maybe we ought to talk about how to do it better or whether the poster's judgment was accurate.....& when I've responded with "I did it that way because...." I've been disappointed sometimes to get to further reply. If we were talking face to face I wouldn't expect the conversation to end then, so why should it in this forum? Gee, if I want to get emotionally invested and take offense & all, I guess I could go to any bar and argue about politics and religion, or pick a fight with my wife, or whatever, but I have higher hopes for this forum.
when the poster receives criticism with a response....."I did it that way because..."....the dialogue shouldn't end there
At that point though, Eric, to me, you've stated your reasons for doing what you did to achieve your vision of your art and I'd feel like I'm arguing your art.
Like I said, it's a fine line. We're all adults and I've yet to see any big fights break out on this forum (maybe they have in the past, I don't know). If I feel I've effectively communicated my points for doing something a particular way and I recieve no further response, I can accept that so long as I feel there is no malace intent or misunderstandings on either side - the giver and reciever of critique. It often just comes down to a difference of artistic opinions and that's fine with me.
Discussion
22 repliesI don't know Marc, it's nice but.......
Nice leading line in the forground which leads to the overlapping hills in the midground. I think this is an excellent composition.
Well I've never been to the Badlands and so I don't have any preconceived ideas about what this is "supposed to look like" and as an artist I have to say that I really hate it when viewers bring preconceived ideas to a piece. I'm not a photographer so I can't say whether it should be "warmed up" or not. I really like this shot. I also like the very subtle warm/cool contrast of the background mountains and sky against the desolate foreground. It works for me.
Lynne
My problem with this image is the mass of overly dark clouds in the upper right hand corner. I think they're the result of the ND filters but maybe unavoidable because of the intense brightness of the sun. I'm curious what this scene might have looked like shortly after the sunset when less filtering may have been needed.
(2) I vote firmly ambivalent about the sunstars. Yes, they're hard to capture well; yes, looking at half a dozen sunstar images all at once gets a bit overwhelming.....Remember the time you posted the desert image with no sun at all, and then in the discussion you posted a sunstar variation of the same image? Both compelling images, but if I remember rightly you found the non-sunstar variation preferable.....
(3) You are such an absolute master of the ND filters, the virtuosity there is amazing;
(4) I don't mind the sky at all;
(5) The "unwarmed" tone here tells me that its about to get cold at nightfall in the desert. A little shiver is vivid and, quite possibly, even literally accurate. Maybe the warm tone works better with shadows, and, as I see it, part of the message of this photo is that there aren't any shadows.
I visited this same place two years ago and captured a panorama of this same view from below Manly Beacon on a hike up one canyon from the valley floor and down the next to the south. My pano image is at:
http://www.pbase.com/csully/image/39945654/original
Your viewpoint is to the left of mine. The rounded hill and peak on the ridge are reversed in my image.
Thanks for sharing, it brought back warm memories for me.
This is an interesting landscape, and overall I have to say I like it. I'll throw at you my opinions here, about the image and views/critiques ration.
I think that there is a time and a place for sunstars. I'm a sucker for them and I like most of your coast and mountain images with this effect, but since this is an effect most people use rarely...when you do it so much, it tends to make your sunrise/sunset images all seem alike.
Now, Lynne is right. Each image must be judged on it's own merit...not comparing it to a group...like I stated in one of your recent posts. So let me critique this one.
I like the forground, although I do wish to see more seperation between the crags and fingers. The sunstar thing doesn't work here...I think the proper sky to be used is actually 10-20 minutes later, with more of a gradient feel. Of course, your not into this yet...but the absolute perfect time for this particular landscape is upon a full moon, behind you if possible...and some star trails streaking across the sky...this would give you a serious identity crisis...not knowing if you were on earth or another planet. That's the images I see from this landscape, making it the best it can be. The sunstar just doesn't fit into this image, mainly because of the overall lighting....but I do really like the warm tones you created here. I think that works very well.
This isn't a dud image, so dont feel discouraged or attacked with the critiques here. Now, as for the views/comments ratio, here's my take on it.
1. For some reason, people jump all over your images when they are really good. In my opinion, they should be shamed for giving you 35 comments when the next one down the list only has one or 2. When they are not up to your normal standard the "ring kissers" are too afraid to comment in the "constructive critique" area...for fear that they may...what...not become a Timecatcher or something...or that they respect you so much, that they just dont want to offend you and take the silent route instead...We'll never really know this...but I am sure the dynamic is all over the board here.
2. I've seen you ask for critiques, and of course you love the great feedback...we all do...it substantiates our art. When you've gotten some constructive critiques in the past, you've been very polite...but still rebutted with "I did it this way for a reason" or "I disagree". Reacting in this manor makes you actually look like you dont want constructive feedback, or dont care as much of our viewpoints for whatever reason. Instead...just soak in the comments, and thank everyone craciously (not that you dont do this at all).
I think we can all grow from listening to everybody's viewpoint, and thanking them for the time they took to respond to a request. We all should not always rely upon photographers to critique our images. We tend to be too technical instead of just feeling the images. I'm just as guilty as anybody here, and is something I still struggle with. My best advice has sometimes come from people like Lynne...they judge on feeling first and formost. I wish we had more artists like her, helping us with our images...
3. I've been rather bothered lately by the lack of critiques myself...not just in our local wing, but in all the forums on this site. The people who need it the most, only get one comment...maybe 3 or 4, but that is it. how are they to grow? I try to make a personal point lately, to post at least 4 critiques to the lowest number of critique'd images...to every one I post. Sure, it's not easy to critique those without fear of hurting someone...but my thoughts are that they asked for the help and they should appreciate any comments that would make their work better.
4. Another reason for lack of critiques; you dont know the history here, but this forum has gone through some bad times in the past 3 years. Some personalities just dont click here, and we are all sorta gunshy to head back down the road of decay, during a time when we all want to just enjoy our hobby/art/passion/profession and see this froum get along.
I wish it were cut and dry here, but I feel your pain. Nobody...and I mean nobody here likes to be snubbed on a post. I mean all of this in the best of intentions and hope my poor communication skills are not misinterpreted as an attack. If anything here needs clarification, please call me at 503.260.6495.
I say again, as I have in the past...with everyone lurking here...dont be afraid to comment on ANYONE'S image...whether it be this hack, or even Marc's images. Be a curtious forum participant and provide your input if there is less than 6 comments on a post. I dont think that would be unreasonable. I greatly miss some of the past participants involvment here...dont give up...you dont need to make a grand re-entry...just a comment here and there would be great. And then even perhaps it would be nice to see an image from you eventually...
OK, I'm done now. Sorry...
I am with you Marc on the comment to view ratio. I think what happens on many of the forums (not just this one) is that people really don't know what to say and only gush if something really resonates with them..... frustrating, yes.... but if they don't have what they feel to be a helpful suggestion, they just stay in the shadows.
It's a good thing if YOU think it's a good thing. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean diddly. If I made you think about it, and you've decided that you and your art are firmly behind it, then great. If you have (and it seems like you are) confidence in your art, you certainly don't have to impress me.
I had an art teacher who used to say "you pay your money and you make your choice".
Rick, wow. Seriously man. You bored today?
lol...sorta!
I know you're trying to stimulate a discussion and have no ill intentions. Heck, I could have just imagined that from a comment you made in which I probably misread. My memory aint what it used to be! I'm glad you took no offense...
At that point though, Eric, to me, you've stated your reasons for doing what you did to achieve your vision of your art and I'd feel like I'm arguing your art.