Posted by Øyvind Betten on September 5, 2015 at 4:03 AM
I have been member here for som years ago. I came back this spring, but something had happened. The activity is much lower, and there is so few postings. If the NPN has ambitions for the future, something has to happen. Or, Am I wrong?
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 5, 2015 at 7:14 AM
I think to a large degree, creativity and thoughtful critique have given way to fad imagery and instant gratification on anti-social media and sites like 500PX. Guy Tal offers some interesting perspective here;
Here's a thread in NPN's Lounge that offers additional insight. Be sure to read the blog post that is linked in the initial post.
If the NPN has ambitions for the future, something has to happen.
I believe that if we took a poll, that would be the consensus of current NPN members. The "something has to happen" is the kicker: what would that be and how do we do it?
If the NPN has ambitions for the future, something has to happen.
From my perspective it takes more then just wondering about it. For me it is not a magical or mystical puzzle, you just need to look at a persons activity in posts, comments, and overal forum(s) input. The basic CP ratio as it is known is an indicator of involvement overall. If those numbers go up in a proper ratio of at least 5:1, then things are in a positive uptick and not much else is required beyond that IMVHO........
Keep in mind that across the board many sites have flattened out with regard to total activity as a result of the number of sites out there. Not just photo sharing sites either. The world is always changing and after 15 years now NPN is still active, albeit not at the level we all recall from the earlier days.
So on an individual basis there is still an attraction for many who support the general idea here at NPN......
Members appear to be not posting images, nor writing critiques. An image I posted in Landscape 17 days ago is still on the first page! I also agree with you Paul, that of those who do post, a quick sample of posts to comments (in Landscape) averages out to about to about 3. The unwritten guideline is 5 comments/post which I encourage folks to maintain. In doing so, we all benefit.
In my opinion, the vibrancy of NPN, not only in the critique Galleries, but also the discussion forums is key to attracting new members. Therefore, it is up to the current members to use NPN to the greatest extent possible.
How do we do this? We do this by posting our images and writing critiques on the images of others. We ask, or answer questions about digital imaging. We ask, or answer questions about how to get the most out of our equipment, or about technical issues. We write about topics that are important to us in Hot Topics or in the Lounge. I could go on, but I think my point is clear.
If we look at NPN as an organization of like-minded individuals whose collective goal is to foster vibrancy, creativity and camaraderie, we will attract new members and/or realize the return of folks who left NPN.
I hope I'm not coming across too strongly, here, but the long-time members of NPN have invested an enormous amount of time and effort in support of NPN. It would be heartbreaking to see it fall.
That said, my challenge to all of us is to Step Up the Game!
Totally agree, Preston. I think there is a lot to be said for the forum area in general and communication well beyond the gallery post & comment areas. However, to a certain extent many folks never visit the forums at all.
So, in order to reach those folks maybe a photo with a link to a discussion such as this might reach more. Your observation and quick count of around 3:1 ratio is about right from my POV too. Gosh, I use to marvel at the solid commenter that held a 20:1 or better ratio. They were not just "att-a-boy" comments either. There is still solid critique commenting to date. But the ratio of 3:1 is hardly taking anytime to support the overall group. Anyone can post an image, but taking time to comment at least a ratio of 5:1 or higher is a bit of second effort.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 5, 2015 at 5:56 PM
Just as an FYI, something will come of this thread. Please continue the discussion!
Enjoyed reading the post and comments. I am a new member (5 months) and do look forward to reading comments/critiques on the images I find appealing. Also enjoy exploring the galleries of the photographers and the work that they have posted. I do find it difficult to write a critique. The guidelines have been helpful and expect I'll get better. Generally, I found the site a bit difficult to navigate. I most often feel that my I don't have the photographic experience/education to offer a great deal of critique on the postings from folks that have been at it considerably longer than I have.
Some other comments...still have trouble posting a photo so that the click on for larger image fills the screen. I don't really understand the relationship of the PhotoPortrfolios.net and the NPN. The image sizes presented are very small.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 6, 2015 at 4:55 AM
Stephen, thanks for joining the conversation!
I most often feel that my I don't have the photographic experience/education to offer a great deal of critique on the postings from folks that have been at it considerably longer than I have.
This is normal for new members, it's just a feeling you need to disregard and start writing those critiques! What you'll discover is that you actually learn just as much by critiquing the photos of others than having your own critiqued.
...still have trouble posting a photo so that the click on for larger image fills the screen.
Depending on monitor resolution and the browser used, photos will max out at 1600 pixels (if you sized them that large). I looked at your photos and when clicking the intermediate photo on the comments screen, they fill my 1920 X 1200 monitor quite nicely. BTW, I enjoyed viewing them!
I don't really understand the relationship of the PhotoPortrfolios.net and the NPN.
No worries, we haven't figured that out either. "PPN" was something we put together a long time ago and we still don't know if we should invest in updating it or just pull the plug.
Thanks again for joining the conversation!
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 6, 2015 at 8:24 AM
Defining NPN
The Membership Information page has been updated to better reflect what NPN is about, along with a link to the Defining NPN commentary. I think defining what we are and perhaps as importantly, what we are not, will be useful in moving forward.
As always, your feedback is appreciated!
Posted by John Tobias on September 6, 2015 at 11:31 PM
I joined NPN in 2009, the year I retired. I joined because it provides me with a place to exhibit my photos, see others, give and take comments,( I have made over 5000). I enjoy seeing my photos in the galleries, I enjoy seeing nature photos from around the world, and I enjoy, learn from and even become annoyed at the comments. BUT I have also learned from the comments. As far as the quality of my photographs, I have posted some that have become the Editors Pick, and some I deleted after posting because I thought they were not good enough. I hope that NPN continues to provide an outlet for nature photographers at all levels. For me there is a great satisfaction in nature photography, even though I do not get out as much as I would like, seeing and sharing nature photographs to me is the greatest thing NPN offers. I would tell those who think their photos are not good enough to join, post, comment and learn. Set aside the fear of receiving comments which might seem harsh, we all have, learn from each photo you post, learn from each photo you comment on, but most of all enjoy sharing your nature photography with others.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 7, 2015 at 6:19 AM
Set aside the fear of receiving comments which might seem harsh, we all have, learn from each photo you post, learn from each photo you comment on, but most of all enjoy sharing your nature photography with others.
I am a long time NPN member. This is one of a few sites that taught me most of what I know about amateur landscape photography. NPN helped me learn photographic technique and photographic art. But, I have been mostly lurking and not actively participating for the last few years. Yet, I would be sad to see the site's decline.
I actively posted both photos and comments for a number of years. I really appreciated the helpful comments. A few of the senior members were especially generous with their help. But, I reached a point where active participation lost some of its benefits to me. I then started only commenting, and then only lurking.
I am a working family guy (non artist) and I can spend a limited amont of time on landscape photography. I felt that I was not keeping up. I would post my better efforts, and receive few interesting comments. Let me be clear, certain members were very generous in their outreach to photographers like myself. But, at times, NPN seemed like a club of expert friends. It is normal that people invest more in their artistic friends and less in passers by. So, serious time investment is required to derive the full NPN benefit. Midrange photographers might not keep up and might not receive the full joy.
When exchanging technical advice or equipment advice, the site is stellar. The motivation to post is clear for this type of direct discourse.
This is just one person's experience.
Mike.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 8, 2015 at 6:27 AM
I am a working family guy (non artist) and I can spend a limited amont of time on landscape photography. I felt that I was not keeping up. I would post my better efforts, and receive few interesting comments. Let me be clear, certain members were very generous in their outreach to photographers like myself. But, at times, NPN seemed like a club of expert friends. It is normal that people invest more in their artistic friends and less in passers by. So, serious time investment is required to derive the full NPN benefit. Midrange photographers might not keep up and might not receive the full joy.
Mike, thank-you for posting your thoughts on this!
I believe what you describe is a common behavior on all forums - the most active participants are the ones with with largest investment of time and equipment. I see the same thing on other (non-photography) forums and I'm not sure what the answer is.
That said, I had always envisioned a system that a member could select a handful of other members (say up to five) to designate on their Preferences screen, who would automatically get an email when a new photo is posted. It would work like a "Follow" link only in everse - the person posting selects who gets the notification. I'm not certain any "system" can impact participation, but this is one I've been considering for a long time. Any thoughts on it are appreciated.
Posted by Igor Doncov on September 8, 2015 at 11:52 AM
On the positive side.
I feel that the comments are more in depth and thorough than they were during NPN's 'golden years'. There were an awful lot of attaboy comments back then. Or when comments did provide advice they often dealt with 'nits', small bright spots at the edge of frames, never with what the statement being made or how well it's conveyed.
I feel that this is the proper direction for NPN.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 8, 2015 at 7:35 PM
While I agree with Igor's assessment to a certain extent, there was also a very good proportion of more in-depth comments. We must also keep in mind, that 'back in the day, as it were, an image at the top of the first page in Landscape would be on the second page by the next day. I think this fact may have bred a certain amount of 'attaboy's' , and also, a lot of images got missed in the shuffle.
I do think the quality of the comments is better today. I think this is due, in part, to a less frenetic level of image postings, but also because there has been much written of late regarding critiques.
I applaud all of you for doing your best!
--P
Posted by Richard Wong on September 14, 2015 at 4:14 PM
I've been gone from NPN for several years now and just logged back in today . The community of NPN from several years ago can't be replicated in my opinion on these other sites but I think many of the more popular photographers from this site have moved onto selling workshops, selling eBooks, fame-seeking, etc... on social media sites rather than be a part of a group community. It's a shame because I think we all learned and gained a lot by being a part of the NPN community. I don't see why there can't be room for both.
Posted by Stan Rose on September 15, 2015 at 11:51 PM
As another long time member in hiatus, ill echo Richard. My main reasons for 'leaving' (im back, for now...) were two fold: 1) time; i cant post everywhere and since i have many non-photographer friends who see my FB page, most of my posts over the last year or so have gone there. 2) After chastising folks like Marc (Adamus) for not accepting critique, i came to a similar conclusion about my own needs--i just didnt feel like i wanted any critique, i just wanted to post something for the sake of posting it. The flip side is that I don't care for the Flikr/500px style of "Awesome Photo!" nonsense (followed by "check out my ghallery!) It's downright nauseating. I'm not sure what the optimal way of doing a gallery would be. FB suits my needs because i can gauge the popularity of a photo by the likes and shares, without anyone telling me my way of processing is right or 'wrong'. If i want harsh critique, I can get it in private or closed groups. I tried to steer away from that sort of comment in my own critiques here, but there's no way to avoid it on NPN as it stands. Maybe now that it's been 'decimated' it will correct itself, liek a Phoenix ye shall rise from the ashes!
Posted by Richard Wong on September 16, 2015 at 12:47 AM
You make a really good point, Stan. Posting on NPN to me has always been about image critique. I think at some point, many photographers stop wanting to accept any sort of critique. Perhaps it's a combination of ego, pride, or just different priorities in life but there has to be an appropriate venue for that too. Critiquing someone's Facebook post on their timeline would be considered an attack or in a negative manner but on a site like NPN it's expected otherwise why else post here? This is an educational site as much as a community.
NPN is unique in that critique is the main reason for posting images here. I believe that most, if not all who post here expect some negative comment along with the good, but in a manner that fosters learning rather than the comments being a personal attack. Some poeple do view negative comments as negativity directed at them personally, which is unfortunate. There is no solution to that other than moving on to a place such as FB where negative comments are not acceptable.
In this related thread , Stan mentioned the idea of a "Showcase Gallery" where members could post images for which they do not desire critique. As I stated there, I believe the idea has merit. Not only would such a gallery be a nice venue for members to display their best work, it would also be a venue for those who have difficulties accepting negative comments via critique in the other galleries.
I look forward to what others have to say about the "Showcase Gallery" idea.
Again, welcome back, Richard. We look forward to seeing your work and reading your comments.
--P
Posted by Richard Wong on September 16, 2015 at 7:36 PM
Thanks Preston. I've always enjoyed your commentary and presence on NPN.
Seems like quite a few user experience changes on NPN since I was last here like clicking on the image thumbnails now brings up a lightbox rather than takes you directly to the image commentary page. I would personally rather see it go back to the old method because intuitively the average user is always going to click on the image rather than on a text link that might or might not even be obvious it's clickable to begin with. That's what I did initially until I realized you had to click on the headline to get to the comment page.
Discussion
21 repliesI have been member here for som years ago. I came back this spring, but something had happened. The activity is much lower, and there is so few postings. If the NPN has ambitions for the future, something has to happen. Or, Am I wrong?
I think to a large degree, creativity and thoughtful critique have given way to fad imagery and instant gratification on anti-social media and sites like 500PX. Guy Tal offers some interesting perspective here;
https://www.facebook.com/guytalphoto/photos/a.147452699707.110709.146993979707/10153674785964708/?type=1&theater
Øyvind,
Happy to hear you're back at NPN!
Here's a thread in NPN's Lounge that offers additional insight. Be sure to read the blog post that is linked in the initial post.
I believe that if we took a poll, that would be the consensus of current NPN members. The "something has to happen" is the kicker: what would that be and how do we do it?
--P
From my perspective it takes more then just wondering about it. For me it is not a magical or mystical puzzle, you just need to look at a persons activity in posts, comments, and overal forum(s) input. The basic CP ratio as it is known is an indicator of involvement overall. If those numbers go up in a proper ratio of at least 5:1, then things are in a positive uptick and not much else is required beyond that IMVHO........
Keep in mind that across the board many sites have flattened out with regard to total activity as a result of the number of sites out there. Not just photo sharing sites either. The world is always changing and after 15 years now NPN is still active, albeit not at the level we all recall from the earlier days.
So on an individual basis there is still an attraction for many who support the general idea here at NPN......
Members appear to be not posting images, nor writing critiques. An image I posted in Landscape 17 days ago is still on the first page! I also agree with you Paul, that of those who do post, a quick sample of posts to comments (in Landscape) averages out to about to about 3. The unwritten guideline is 5 comments/post which I encourage folks to maintain. In doing so, we all benefit.
In my opinion, the vibrancy of NPN, not only in the critique Galleries, but also the discussion forums is key to attracting new members. Therefore, it is up to the current members to use NPN to the greatest extent possible.
How do we do this? We do this by posting our images and writing critiques on the images of others. We ask, or answer questions about digital imaging. We ask, or answer questions about how to get the most out of our equipment, or about technical issues. We write about topics that are important to us in Hot Topics or in the Lounge. I could go on, but I think my point is clear.
If we look at NPN as an organization of like-minded individuals whose collective goal is to foster vibrancy, creativity and camaraderie, we will attract new members and/or realize the return of folks who left NPN.
I hope I'm not coming across too strongly, here, but the long-time members of NPN have invested an enormous amount of time and effort in support of NPN. It would be heartbreaking to see it fall.
That said, my challenge to all of us is to Step Up the Game!
Kind Regards,
--P
Totally agree, Preston. I think there is a lot to be said for the forum area in general and communication well beyond the gallery post & comment areas. However, to a certain extent many folks never visit the forums at all.
So, in order to reach those folks maybe a photo with a link to a discussion such as this might reach more. Your observation and quick count of around 3:1 ratio is about right from my POV too. Gosh, I use to marvel at the solid commenter that held a 20:1 or better ratio. They were not just "att-a-boy" comments either. There is still solid critique commenting to date. But the ratio of 3:1 is hardly taking anytime to support the overall group. Anyone can post an image, but taking time to comment at least a ratio of 5:1 or higher is a bit of second effort.
Just as an FYI, something will come of this thread. Please continue the discussion!
Enjoyed reading the post and comments. I am a new member (5 months) and do look forward to reading comments/critiques on the images I find appealing. Also enjoy exploring the galleries of the photographers and the work that they have posted. I do find it difficult to write a critique. The guidelines have been helpful and expect I'll get better. Generally, I found the site a bit difficult to navigate. I most often feel that my I don't have the photographic experience/education to offer a great deal of critique on the postings from folks that have been at it considerably longer than I have.
Some other comments...still have trouble posting a photo so that the click on for larger image fills the screen. I don't really understand the relationship of the PhotoPortrfolios.net and the NPN. The image sizes presented are very small.
Stephen, thanks for joining the conversation!
This is normal for new members, it's just a feeling you need to disregard and start writing those critiques! What you'll discover is that you actually learn just as much by critiquing the photos of others than having your own critiqued.
Depending on monitor resolution and the browser used, photos will max out at 1600 pixels (if you sized them that large). I looked at your photos and when clicking the intermediate photo on the comments screen, they fill my 1920 X 1200 monitor quite nicely. BTW, I enjoyed viewing them!
No worries, we haven't figured that out either. "PPN" was something we put together a long time ago and we still don't know if we should invest in updating it or just pull the plug.
Thanks again for joining the conversation!
Defining NPN
The Membership Information page has been updated to better reflect what NPN is about, along with a link to the Defining NPN commentary. I think defining what we are and perhaps as importantly, what we are not, will be useful in moving forward.
As always, your feedback is appreciated!
I joined NPN in 2009, the year I retired. I joined because it provides me with a place to exhibit my photos, see others, give and take comments,( I have made over 5000). I enjoy seeing my photos in the galleries, I enjoy seeing nature photos from around the world, and I enjoy, learn from and even become annoyed at the comments. BUT I have also learned from the comments. As far as the quality of my photographs, I have posted some that have become the Editors Pick, and some I deleted after posting because I thought they were not good enough. I hope that NPN continues to provide an outlet for nature photographers at all levels. For me there is a great satisfaction in nature photography, even though I do not get out as much as I would like, seeing and sharing nature photographs to me is the greatest thing NPN offers. I would tell those who think their photos are not good enough to join, post, comment and learn. Set aside the fear of receiving comments which might seem harsh, we all have, learn from each photo you post, learn from each photo you comment on, but most of all enjoy sharing your nature photography with others.
Just my 2 cents.
John, solid advice - thanks for sharing!
I am a long time NPN member. This is one of a few sites that taught me most of what I know about amateur landscape photography. NPN helped me learn photographic technique and photographic art. But, I have been mostly lurking and not actively participating for the last few years. Yet, I would be sad to see the site's decline.
I actively posted both photos and comments for a number of years. I really appreciated the helpful comments. A few of the senior members were especially generous with their help. But, I reached a point where active participation lost some of its benefits to me. I then started only commenting, and then only lurking.
I am a working family guy (non artist) and I can spend a limited amont of time on landscape photography. I felt that I was not keeping up. I would post my better efforts, and receive few interesting comments. Let me be clear, certain members were very generous in their outreach to photographers like myself. But, at times, NPN seemed like a club of expert friends. It is normal that people invest more in their artistic friends and less in passers by. So, serious time investment is required to derive the full NPN benefit. Midrange photographers might not keep up and might not receive the full joy.
When exchanging technical advice or equipment advice, the site is stellar. The motivation to post is clear for this type of direct discourse.
This is just one person's experience.
Mike.
Mike, thank-you for posting your thoughts on this!
I believe what you describe is a common behavior on all forums - the most active participants are the ones with with largest investment of time and equipment. I see the same thing on other (non-photography) forums and I'm not sure what the answer is.
That said, I had always envisioned a system that a member could select a handful of other members (say up to five) to designate on their Preferences screen, who would automatically get an email when a new photo is posted. It would work like a "Follow" link only in everse - the person posting selects who gets the notification. I'm not certain any "system" can impact participation, but this is one I've been considering for a long time. Any thoughts on it are appreciated.
On the positive side.
I feel that the comments are more in depth and thorough than they were during NPN's 'golden years'. There were an awful lot of attaboy comments back then. Or when comments did provide advice they often dealt with 'nits', small bright spots at the edge of frames, never with what the statement being made or how well it's conveyed.
I feel that this is the proper direction for NPN.
Igor, I agree with your assessment!
While I agree with Igor's assessment to a certain extent, there was also a very good proportion of more in-depth comments. We must also keep in mind, that 'back in the day, as it were, an image at the top of the first page in Landscape would be on the second page by the next day. I think this fact may have bred a certain amount of 'attaboy's' , and also, a lot of images got missed in the shuffle.
I do think the quality of the comments is better today. I think this is due, in part, to a less frenetic level of image postings, but also because there has been much written of late regarding critiques.
I applaud all of you for doing your best!
--P
I've been gone from NPN for several years now and just logged back in today
. The community of NPN from several years ago can't be replicated in my opinion on these other sites but I think many of the more popular photographers from this site have moved onto selling workshops, selling eBooks, fame-seeking, etc... on social media sites rather than be a part of a group community. It's a shame because I think we all learned and gained a lot by being a part of the NPN community. I don't see why there can't be room for both.
As another long time member in hiatus, ill echo Richard. My main reasons for 'leaving' (im back, for now...) were two fold: 1) time; i cant post everywhere and since i have many non-photographer friends who see my FB page, most of my posts over the last year or so have gone there. 2) After chastising folks like Marc (Adamus) for not accepting critique, i came to a similar conclusion about my own needs--i just didnt feel like i wanted any critique, i just wanted to post something for the sake of posting it. The flip side is that I don't care for the Flikr/500px style of "Awesome Photo!" nonsense (followed by "check out my ghallery!) It's downright nauseating. I'm not sure what the optimal way of doing a gallery would be. FB suits my needs because i can gauge the popularity of a photo by the likes and shares, without anyone telling me my way of processing is right or 'wrong'. If i want harsh critique, I can get it in private or closed groups. I tried to steer away from that sort of comment in my own critiques here, but there's no way to avoid it on NPN as it stands. Maybe now that it's been 'decimated' it will correct itself, liek a Phoenix ye shall rise from the ashes!
You make a really good point, Stan. Posting on NPN to me has always been about image critique. I think at some point, many photographers stop wanting to accept any sort of critique. Perhaps it's a combination of ego, pride, or just different priorities in life but there has to be an appropriate venue for that too. Critiquing someone's Facebook post on their timeline would be considered an attack or in a negative manner but on a site like NPN it's expected otherwise why else post here? This is an educational site as much as a community.
Hi Richard,
Welcome back to NPN!
NPN is unique in that critique is the main reason for posting images here. I believe that most, if not all who post here expect some negative comment along with the good, but in a manner that fosters learning rather than the comments being a personal attack. Some poeple do view negative comments as negativity directed at them personally, which is unfortunate. There is no solution to that other than moving on to a place such as FB where negative comments are not acceptable.
In this related thread , Stan mentioned the idea of a "Showcase Gallery" where members could post images for which they do not desire critique. As I stated there, I believe the idea has merit. Not only would such a gallery be a nice venue for members to display their best work, it would also be a venue for those who have difficulties accepting negative comments via critique in the other galleries.
I look forward to what others have to say about the "Showcase Gallery" idea.
Again, welcome back, Richard. We look forward to seeing your work and reading your comments.
--P
Thanks Preston. I've always enjoyed your commentary and presence on NPN.
Seems like quite a few user experience changes on NPN since I was last here like clicking on the image thumbnails now brings up a lightbox rather than takes you directly to the image commentary page. I would personally rather see it go back to the old method because intuitively the average user is always going to click on the image rather than on a text link that might or might not even be obvious it's clickable to begin with. That's what I did initially until I realized you had to click on the headline to get to the comment page.