A site where your "Like" or "Follow" stats are the ultimate measure of your photographic mastery
OUCH..........!!!!
A well outlined charter and very elegantly put, Jim. Thanks for taking the time to reflect upon the main NPN operational points, agenda, or the true spirit of this site.
btw: was there still any thoughts of having a 15 year anniversary gallery like the 10 year one?........
Posted by Ian Wolfenden on September 6, 2015 at 4:22 PM
No feathers ruffled here, Jim - a most excellent summary of what NPN has been, is and, I hope, always will be !! Also like the update to the Membership Information page.
Posted by Jim DeWitt on September 6, 2015 at 5:42 PM
To underscore what you said: it has been my great privilege to photograph birds with several NPN Avian members. They are each of them great people, terrific photographers and generous with their time and assistance. It's a long list, but would include Rich, Mia, Charlie and Ron, among many others. And, of course, the late, great Ronnie Gaubert. I would never have met them but for NPN.
Posted by Howard Cheek on September 6, 2015 at 7:11 PM
Well stated and much appreciated, you've cleared the air of any doubts some might have about NPN Jim.
NPN has been home to me for over 7 years, the people here make all the difference. I believe NPN will grow again, as people come to realize the many shortcomings of most social media sites. "They just can't compete, because at NPN you get the meat"
How's that for a campaign slogan
Posted by Sandra M. Apel on September 6, 2015 at 7:56 PM
Thanks Jim for restating the reason I joined and continue to belong!
Posted by Nancy de Flon on September 6, 2015 at 8:43 PM
Not a "site that celebrates novelty instead of creativity." Thanks for sharing this insight! Too often (not by NPN members) the two are thought of as synonymous.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 6, 2015 at 9:39 PM
The distinction between novelty and creativity was something that Guy Tal shared some thoughts with me in a recent email exchange. As is usually the case, conversations with Guy can be very enlightening.
Posted by Greg Lessard on September 7, 2015 at 8:00 AM
Hi Jim,
Maybe you could share some sections of the email with Guy regarding the difference between novelty and creativity. Maybe even convince Guy to write a post about it. While I understand the difference, I truly enjoy reading Guy's take on things. I don't always agree with him, but he certainly provides an imeptus to think more deeply.
Thank you for this post! It defines an excellent community. Thank you for your dedication to this community and for having the wisdom to not chace after every trend, rather remaining true to your values and those of the community. It takes a lot of effort, and it is certainly not painless, but in the continued success of NPN, you and the members can be proud.
Sincerely,
Greg
Posted by Jim Zablotny on September 7, 2015 at 8:53 AM
Jim--well done. The critique is what strengthens the photo and that's essential to photography..................Jim
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 7, 2015 at 9:20 AM
Greg, I do not believe Guy does much online anymore other than keeping a presence on FB strictly for marketing purposes. I would love nothing more than for him to regularly post here again but I respect his reasons not to.
At the same time, I feel a need to hold his communications with me at a certain level of confidence, but I think he'd be OK with me sharing the following snippet;
I've been doing a lot of research, reading and writing about art and creativity in the last few years, and it just doesn't reconcile with much of what I'm seeing online. A couple of years ago I heard an interview with a writer who was talking about the new "millennial" culture of narcissism, instant gratification, decline in reading, etc. and the interviewer asked her a similar question: what should we do to change it? Her answer surprised me very much. She said: there's nothing we can do, we already lost the culture war. What surprised me even more was to realize that I couldn't help but agree with her.
That statement resonates with me and I believe gives insight about NPN as well: we're not going to win over the crowd described above, but we certainly can continue to cultivate things like creativity, writing skills, etc. for those of us who still consider such things important. The statement above also IMO explains the current demographics of NPN and the lack of participation by younger people.
As Howard mentioned is his post above, the things we hold dear will never become outdated. But even if they do, I have no issue with us being the "last men/women standing" holding true to those beliefs.
Posted by Jerry Marella on September 7, 2015 at 11:41 AM
This is why I'm posting again! Well said.
Posted by Bill Chambers on September 7, 2015 at 10:11 PM
Excellent Jim. Keep on keeping on!
Posted by Greg Lessard on September 7, 2015 at 10:32 PM
Thank you Jim!
Like anything else, culture is taught. As a teacher, I see all kinds of students who fit in with the millennial crowd described above. I also meet many kids who value art, music, dance, creativity, physics, engineering etc. They are willinng to work hard over a long period of time to gain insight and rewards that are not superficial. Many of these kids come from families who foster these values. A few find these values on their own. As people who identify with these values, we have an opportunity to share our insights with others who seek similar experience. I believe that the NPN community does help promote culture and learning for those who are willing to listen.
I believe that many battles in the culture war have been lost, but the war will rage on. As a teacher, it is easy to lament all of the things that our students are no longer taught or care about. Just when you least expect it, they show that they do care... I for one choose to keep teaching and learning. (By the way, based on reading many of Guy's blog posts, I don't believe that he has truly given up either. Otherwise, he wouldn't post his thoughts to be shared like a guiding light in the dearth of our culture.)
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 8, 2015 at 5:56 AM
Greg, thanks for your thoughts on this!
So for those young people who have an interest in developing skills beyond the superficial, and who also have some photographic interests, how do we go about finding them and attracting them to NPN?
The thread Why nature photography? reveals some reasons why people enjoy it. It is my thought to produce a short video intended to generate interest in nature photography, and in a more subtle fashion, interest in NPN membership. Setting up a program for this purpose can certainly be done, but finding the audience and getting our message in front of them may be the larger challenge.
For the video, I am envsioning still photos being panned and the voice of the person who captured the photo describing what attacted them to the acvitity. I think this would be an interesting project that local NPN member Jim Deasy could help us produce. If we can gather the needed content from our members (a few photos and their voice overs) we could put something togther that could be placed online.
Posted by Harley Goldman on September 8, 2015 at 5:54 PM
Excellent Jim! Those definitions are why I stick around (and avoid many of the other photo sites on the web). I have made many good friends with folks I met at NPN. It is a great community.
I'm with Harley, here. Sure, Jim, your definitions may have ruffled some feathers, but it needed to be said--up front. It is those things that have kept me here. Like Harley, I have met folks through NPN who are now good friends, Mr. Harley included. So, the NPN community is not just here on the Web, it is in many places out in nature.
--P
ps: You might add to your list that NPN has it's formally established Regional Groups that I believe are unique to the photo sites.
Posted by David Bostedo on September 9, 2015 at 11:28 PM
I like it! Personally, I haven't been super active lately, but it's only because I haven't been too active in photography period. The activity I have had has been on NPN because of all the things in the piece you wrote Jim. Thanks.
(One editorial note... this statement in the "is not" section is missing an "of" after "instead" : A site that celebrates novelty instead creativity, and instant gratification instead of long-term growth. I'm also not sure novelty being different than creativity is very clear.)
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 10, 2015 at 6:39 AM
David, good catch - I'll make the correction!
Posted by Igor Doncov on September 11, 2015 at 7:25 AM
I don't think creativity has diminished. Rather it has moved from visual creativity to post processing creativity. The 'art of seeing' as Freeman Patterson called it is greatly diminished these days but the art of image manipulation is going very strong. From reading Guys material and seeing his images I believe that he refers to the former when he speaks of creativity. And I have to agree with him.
Posted by Stan Rose on September 16, 2015 at 12:25 AM
I'll offer another perspective, i just renewed (mainly because i wouldnt be 1/10th the photographer i am without my experience with this group) but in my lenghty absence from here (ive lost track how long) i honestly ddn't feel like i was missing out. One of the suggestions as i recall was to have a non-critique gallery for people who simply wanted to post without the critique. I know a number of people who left because they perceived every bit of constructive critique or simple reaction to an image as a negative--and people want to avoid anything that they remotely perceived as negative--i don't quite see it that way but that's what i sensed from a number of photogs. On sites like FB etc, it's implicit that you don't make any 'negative' comments, and obviously there are some very good photographers who are thriving in that environment. Some of them are household names in the phtoography community. I think there has to be a way to entice them to this site. I'm not sure if just a simple non-critique gallery is the way to do it, because that wouldn't be any different than what is already out there. What do you think of a curated gallery? There already is some of that to some extent--the weekly picks and showcased galleries, but they're not true display galleries like the main galleries here. The down side of curated stuff is that then people accuse the curators of having a closed mindset, or of an 'in-crowd' clique. But I think if you involved enough people it might work. I just think that if NPN is about celebrating novelty, there has to be a way to honor the photogs out thee who are both novel and creative, It's those individuals who kept me excited about being here, especially early on in my membership. I dunno...
I think a "Showcase Gallery" has a certain appeal. The 'comment box' could be removed from the gallery so that those who want to simply post an image according to the current posting guidelines could so without critique. Further, I think cross-posting an image in a critique gallery and the Showcase Gallery should be discouraged because it would be confusing, assuming such a gallery came to pass.
I am not in favor of any kind of curated gallery. It would put a burden on those charged with making the judgments, and could breed animosity among members and staff. One of NPN's great strengths is its sense of 'community', and I would be sad if that was damaged. I think the structure we have currently that recognizes outstanding work is sufficient.
With regard to negative comments, a well written critique should couch any negatives in a manner that encourages learning and growth without belittling the OP. In my opinion, even an accomplished photographer can learn from a critique if they choose to be open the opinions of others, even to that of those with less experience.
I am looking forward to seeing your images in the galleries.
--P
Posted by Stan Rose on September 16, 2015 at 3:35 PM
Thanks, Preston--yeah i agree with you, curating definitely has its downside. I'm just trying to think of a way to solve what I perceive as something that is holding NPN back, and has obviously driven folks away in the past. In a perfect world, I totally agree that critique would work, the problem of course is that we can't expect everyone to be the perfect critic. I think a 'showcase' gallery can have a comment box, it's just understood that the galley is for presenting your best work, not meant for a critical analysis. In fact, since i'm going stream-of-conciousness here, that should be the theme of the gallery--presenting your best work. Doesn't have to be deliniated in any other way. In the past, the way myself, Jim and others have dealt with this issue is to tell people to simply state in their image post that they "are not looking for critique". That's not a bad solution, but it seems uneccesaary to me, Id rather have a venue where it was simply understood that the purpose of the gallery is not for critique, but for displaying your work. Does that go against the basic premise of NPN as stated by Jim? It doesn't for me--but that's up to him and for the rest of us to decide. Cheers!
I am just going to add two cents - holding a thought in my currently tired and addled brain - and I'd better commit it before it fades. But it does mean that it might not be so coherent ...
[Pls note that I am talking mainly of digital photography here.]
Many of the photographers that are leaders out there learned their business here on NPN; those people have led the way to where we are today. It is they that other photographers have been mimicking over the past few year on the more popular sites. However, the technology is no longer delivering any new innovations. So they all learned all they needed to know on NPN and drifted away to showcase sites where their photographs were liked and wowed ... and the world copied their stuff.
With no new developments in digital technology (with the exception of putting cameras on drones, or packing in millions more pixels, etc) there is nothing more to learn (or that may be the perception). It is now relatively easy for the masses to produce "decent" (likeable, saturated, near-far composed) images. But everyone is confused where to go from here. So the sites out there churn out more of the same and a technique-focused, technique-learning site like NPN fades gently. And so it'll carry on until there's either a revolution in digital technology (and I cannot see that happening - although I do reiterate that my brain is currently addled and consequently limited!) or people start being creative (definition/redefinition of fineart photography ... because who knows what that is ... ???) and wish to seek out a site like NPN if it can/wants to shift from being (perceived as) a site on which people learn technique to one on which people learn creativity and craft.
This ramble is, of course, akin to Guy et al.'s thoughts on creativity and novelty. It is interesting and symptomatic that Guy is writing for LensWork on creativity ...
Discussion
26 replies...but IMO it had to be said: Defining NPN
Let it ruffle feathhers but it definitely had to be said. Amen Jim (and I mean that in a totally non-sectarian way).
Where's the Like button?
LOL @ both Hali and Greg - thanks for commenting!
OUCH....
......!!!!
A well outlined charter and very elegantly put, Jim. Thanks for taking the time to reflect upon the main NPN operational points, agenda, or the true spirit of this site.
btw: was there still any thoughts of having a 15 year anniversary gallery like the 10 year one?........
No feathers ruffled here, Jim - a most excellent summary of what NPN has been, is and, I hope, always will be !! Also like the update to the Membership Information page.
To underscore what you said: it has been my great privilege to photograph birds with several NPN Avian members. They are each of them great people, terrific photographers and generous with their time and assistance. It's a long list, but would include Rich, Mia, Charlie and Ron, among many others. And, of course, the late, great Ronnie Gaubert. I would never have met them but for NPN.
Well stated and much appreciated, you've cleared the air of any doubts some might have about NPN Jim.
NPN has been home to me for over 7 years, the people here make all the difference. I believe NPN will grow again, as people come to realize the many shortcomings of most social media sites. "They just can't compete, because at NPN you get the meat"
How's that for a campaign slogan
Thanks Jim for restating the reason I joined and continue to belong!
Not a "site that celebrates novelty instead of creativity." Thanks for sharing this insight! Too often (not by NPN members) the two are thought of as synonymous.
The distinction between novelty and creativity was something that Guy Tal shared some thoughts with me in a recent email exchange. As is usually the case, conversations with Guy can be very enlightening.
Hi Jim,
Maybe you could share some sections of the email with Guy regarding the difference between novelty and creativity. Maybe even convince Guy to write a post about it. While I understand the difference, I truly enjoy reading Guy's take on things. I don't always agree with him, but he certainly provides an imeptus to think more deeply.
Thank you for this post! It defines an excellent community. Thank you for your dedication to this community and for having the wisdom to not chace after every trend, rather remaining true to your values and those of the community. It takes a lot of effort, and it is certainly not painless, but in the continued success of NPN, you and the members can be proud.
Sincerely,
Greg
Jim--well done
. The critique is what strengthens the photo and that's essential to photography..................Jim
Greg, I do not believe Guy does much online anymore other than keeping a presence on FB strictly for marketing purposes. I would love nothing more than for him to regularly post here again but I respect his reasons not to.
At the same time, I feel a need to hold his communications with me at a certain level of confidence, but I think he'd be OK with me sharing the following snippet;
That statement resonates with me and I believe gives insight about NPN as well: we're not going to win over the crowd described above, but we certainly can continue to cultivate things like creativity, writing skills, etc. for those of us who still consider such things important. The statement above also IMO explains the current demographics of NPN and the lack of participation by younger people.
As Howard mentioned is his post above, the things we hold dear will never become outdated. But even if they do, I have no issue with us being the "last men/women standing" holding true to those beliefs.
This is why I'm posting again! Well said.
Excellent Jim. Keep on keeping on!
Thank you Jim!
Like anything else, culture is taught. As a teacher, I see all kinds of students who fit in with the millennial crowd described above. I also meet many kids who value art, music, dance, creativity, physics, engineering etc. They are willinng to work hard over a long period of time to gain insight and rewards that are not superficial. Many of these kids come from families who foster these values. A few find these values on their own. As people who identify with these values, we have an opportunity to share our insights with others who seek similar experience. I believe that the NPN community does help promote culture and learning for those who are willing to listen.
I believe that many battles in the culture war have been lost, but the war will rage on. As a teacher, it is easy to lament all of the things that our students are no longer taught or care about. Just when you least expect it, they show that they do care... I for one choose to keep teaching and learning. (By the way, based on reading many of Guy's blog posts, I don't believe that he has truly given up either. Otherwise, he wouldn't post his thoughts to be shared like a guiding light in the dearth of our culture.)
Greg, thanks for your thoughts on this!
So for those young people who have an interest in developing skills beyond the superficial, and who also have some photographic interests, how do we go about finding them and attracting them to NPN?
The thread Why nature photography? reveals some reasons why people enjoy it. It is my thought to produce a short video intended to generate interest in nature photography, and in a more subtle fashion, interest in NPN membership. Setting up a program for this purpose can certainly be done, but finding the audience and getting our message in front of them may be the larger challenge.
For the video, I am envsioning still photos being panned and the voice of the person who captured the photo describing what attacted them to the acvitity. I think this would be an interesting project that local NPN member Jim Deasy could help us produce. If we can gather the needed content from our members (a few photos and their voice overs) we could put something togther that could be placed online.
Excellent Jim! Those definitions are why I stick around (and avoid many of the other photo sites on the web). I have made many good friends with folks I met at NPN. It is a great community.
I'm with Harley, here. Sure, Jim, your definitions may have ruffled some feathers, but it needed to be said--up front. It is those things that have kept me here. Like Harley, I have met folks through NPN who are now good friends, Mr. Harley included. So, the NPN community is not just here on the Web, it is in many places out in nature.
--P
ps: You might add to your list that NPN has it's formally established Regional Groups that I believe are unique to the photo sites.
I like it! Personally, I haven't been super active lately, but it's only because I haven't been too active in photography period. The activity I have had has been on NPN because of all the things in the piece you wrote Jim. Thanks.
(One editorial note... this statement in the "is not" section is missing an "of" after "instead" : A site that celebrates novelty instead creativity, and instant gratification instead of long-term growth. I'm also not sure novelty being different than creativity is very clear.)
David, good catch - I'll make the correction!
I don't think creativity has diminished. Rather it has moved from visual creativity to post processing creativity. The 'art of seeing' as Freeman Patterson called it is greatly diminished these days but the art of image manipulation is going very strong. From reading Guys material and seeing his images I believe that he refers to the former when he speaks of creativity. And I have to agree with him.
I'll offer another perspective, i just renewed (mainly because i wouldnt be 1/10th the photographer i am without my experience with this group) but in my lenghty absence from here (ive lost track how long) i honestly ddn't feel like i was missing out. One of the suggestions as i recall was to have a non-critique gallery for people who simply wanted to post without the critique. I know a number of people who left because they perceived every bit of constructive critique or simple reaction to an image as a negative--and people want to avoid anything that they remotely perceived as negative--i don't quite see it that way but that's what i sensed from a number of photogs. On sites like FB etc, it's implicit that you don't make any 'negative' comments, and obviously there are some very good photographers who are thriving in that environment. Some of them are household names in the phtoography community. I think there has to be a way to entice them to this site. I'm not sure if just a simple non-critique gallery is the way to do it, because that wouldn't be any different than what is already out there. What do you think of a curated gallery? There already is some of that to some extent--the weekly picks and showcased galleries, but they're not true display galleries like the main galleries here. The down side of curated stuff is that then people accuse the curators of having a closed mindset, or of an 'in-crowd' clique. But I think if you involved enough people it might work. I just think that if NPN is about celebrating novelty, there has to be a way to honor the photogs out thee who are both novel and creative, It's those individuals who kept me excited about being here, especially early on in my membership. I dunno...
Glad to have you back, Stan!
I think a "Showcase Gallery" has a certain appeal. The 'comment box' could be removed from the gallery so that those who want to simply post an image according to the current posting guidelines could so without critique. Further, I think cross-posting an image in a critique gallery and the Showcase Gallery should be discouraged because it would be confusing, assuming such a gallery came to pass.
I am not in favor of any kind of curated gallery. It would put a burden on those charged with making the judgments, and could breed animosity among members and staff. One of NPN's great strengths is its sense of 'community', and I would be sad if that was damaged. I think the structure we have currently that recognizes outstanding work is sufficient.
With regard to negative comments, a well written critique should couch any negatives in a manner that encourages learning and growth without belittling the OP. In my opinion, even an accomplished photographer can learn from a critique if they choose to be open the opinions of others, even to that of those with less experience.
I am looking forward to seeing your images in the galleries.
--P
Thanks, Preston--yeah i agree with you, curating definitely has its downside. I'm just trying to think of a way to solve what I perceive as something that is holding NPN back, and has obviously driven folks away in the past. In a perfect world, I totally agree that critique would work, the problem of course is that we can't expect everyone to be the perfect critic. I think a 'showcase' gallery can have a comment box, it's just understood that the galley is for presenting your best work, not meant for a critical analysis. In fact, since i'm going stream-of-conciousness here,
that should be the theme of the gallery--presenting your best work. Doesn't have to be deliniated in any other way. In the past, the way myself, Jim and others have dealt with this issue is to tell people to simply state in their image post that they "are not looking for critique". That's not a bad solution, but it seems uneccesaary to me, Id rather have a venue where it was simply understood that the purpose of the gallery is not for critique, but for displaying your work. Does that go against the basic premise of NPN as stated by Jim? It doesn't for me--but that's up to him and for the rest of us to decide. Cheers!
I am just going to add two cents - holding a thought in my currently tired and addled brain - and I'd better commit it before it fades. But it does mean that it might not be so coherent ...
[Pls note that I am talking mainly of digital photography here.]
Many of the photographers that are leaders out there learned their business here on NPN; those people have led the way to where we are today. It is they that other photographers have been mimicking over the past few year on the more popular sites. However, the technology is no longer delivering any new innovations. So they all learned all they needed to know on NPN and drifted away to showcase sites where their photographs were liked and wowed ... and the world copied their stuff.
With no new developments in digital technology (with the exception of putting cameras on drones, or packing in millions more pixels, etc) there is nothing more to learn (or that may be the perception). It is now relatively easy for the masses to produce "decent" (likeable, saturated, near-far composed) images. But everyone is confused where to go from here. So the sites out there churn out more of the same and a technique-focused, technique-learning site like NPN fades gently. And so it'll carry on until there's either a revolution in digital technology (and I cannot see that happening - although I do reiterate that my brain is currently addled and consequently limited!) or people start being creative (definition/redefinition of fine art photography ... because who knows what that is ... ???) and wish to seek out a site like NPN if it can/wants to shift from being (perceived as) a site on which people learn technique to one on which people learn creativity and craft.
This ramble is, of course, akin to Guy et al.'s thoughts on creativity and novelty. It is interesting and symptomatic that Guy is writing for LensWork on creativity ...
At this point, I'm off to rest. Stuart