Early on I noticed that NPNers gave fewer to images that were obviously 'bad'. I decided that that was because there were so many issues the photographer had that it could hurt his/her feelings with too much criticism. Because most everyone that posts here thinks they have a great image. I decided to take this approach as well and have done so. But the result is that the photographer is getting one or two comments for their work. 

So what critiquing strategy is best? What is your opinion about these type of images?

So what critiquing strategy is best? What is your opinion about these type of images?

Igor, this could lead to some extensive responses, but I find it better to simplify my thoughts here.

So what critiquing strategy is best? Always try to find a redeeming point to make about those images. Even if it is only one. Then follow up with suggestions to improve, but no more then two points per image. If there are numerous points it does not do any good to overwhelm the issue. By pointing out a couple each time hopefully those same items will fall by the wayside eventually.

What is your opinion about these type of images? We all started at some level. Does this person show any or many comments on others work? If not they're really missing out on a key way to improve their own work. If they're lacking on that front then a suggestion toward that process just might show where they're coming from. If they lack that drive then maybe there is noway for them to improve their work.

 

Igor, Paul made some very well thought-out and concise comments, which I will elaborate on a bit.

So what critiquing strategy is best? Always try to find a redeeming point to make about those images. Even if it is only one. Then follow up with suggestions to improve, but no more then two points per image. If there are numerous points it does not do any good to overwhelm the issue. By pointing out a couple each time hopefully those same items will fall by the wayside eventually.
 

 This is great way to approach the subject. By adding no more than two points critical of the image, doing so invites other members, as well the OP, to continue the dialog. Also, in your (rhetorical your) comments, please do not say, "If it were mine, I would...". This type of comment can be very discouraging, and besides; it is their image, not yours. After you have written your 'redeeming point' and 'critical points', end your post on a positive note.

What is your opinion about these type of images? We all started at some level. Does this person show any or many comments on others work? If not they're really missing out on a key way to improve their own work. If they're lacking on that front then a suggestion toward that process just might show where they're coming from. If they lack that drive then maybe there is no way for them to improve their work.
 

I believe this is critical to upward momentum on the learning curve. Viewing another's image, formulating thoughts about it and writing them down reinforces our ability to evaluate our own work on both a technical and esthetic level. This creates a win-win. Not only do other members benefit from more comments, the photographer learns something new.

This is a great topic, I gor. Thanks for posting it! I hope others will join in on this very important discussion.
--P

Thank you for responding. Paul's following comment is very useful:

So what critiquing strategy is best? Always try to find a redeeming point to make about those images. Even if it is only one. Then follow up with suggestions to improve, but no more then two points per image. If there are numerous points it does not do any good to overwhelm the issue. By pointing out a couple each time hopefully those same items will fall by the wayside eventually

I guess the bottom line with this thread for me is, how to comment on an image to help and not anger the photographer. Everybody wants a compliment. I understand that. But a dishonest compliment is not right for the critiquer. And to not comment at all because an image is 'weak' doesn't seem right either. It protects you but the image maker gets nothing out of it. The goal is that the photographer should feel good after the comment and yet the comment points out weaknesses. Personally, I'm not sure that I'm achieving this. If I compliment an image I will often get a comment on mine, and if I point out weaknesses there are no further comments from the photographer. That seems to be the reality of critiquing everywhere, not just NPN.

 

"If it were mine, I would...". This type of comment can be very discouraging, and besides; it is their image, not yours.

Preston, an extremely good point and I do not ever recall saying that in any comment I've ever made. However, I think I've said maybe once, "I wish this image was mine", or more realistically said, "gosh, I wish I'd been here to photograph this same scene". Those comments would be more of jealousy or envy and not a negative point to be made as you clearly outline.
 

 

But a dishonest compliment is not right for the critiquer.

Igor, another excellent item you've listed is the point not to overdo or falsely emphasis. It is difficult at times to encourage without pretending there is a good point to be made. But, as you also stated to not comment at all on a "weak" image does not seem right either. That can really begin a downturn in the photographer posting or commenting at all in the end.

Great question and dialogue. I know I have learned a tremendous amount from the constructive comments, even when I "thought" my photo was acceptable at times.

Preston I really agree with you on this comment. "Also, in your (rhetorical your) comments, please do not say, "If it were mine, I would...". This type of comment can be very discouraging, and besides; it is their image, not yours. After you have written your 'redeeming point' and 'critical points', end your post on a positive note."

I do think it helps the receiver of suggested improvements to hear "in the opinion of the suggestion giver, not it is a proven fact" that the photo is "weak" for specific, constructive reasons. That takes the "personal affront" out of the equation.

I also find it more palatable if the suggestions are posed as questions such as "I wonder how it would look if you cropped a bit more off the top/side/whatever, or if you used a smaller/larger aperture/iso setting/shutter speed, etc."

Some people have a really difficult time taking any kind of what they perceive as criticism and it will be difficult for those people to take advantage of the expertise that is available on this site for improvement.

I would really like to encourage the moderators to contribute to the critiques as much as they have time to. Some of the moderators are amazing and very thoughtful in providing help. Others seem pretty quiet.I know they are very busy and in most cases have their own professional pursuits. They are the ones that are probably best suited to help everyone improve.

This is a great topic and excellent comments.

Some people have a really difficult time taking any kind of what they perceive as criticism

This is absolutely true.  I know a few people who left NPN because they took constructive critiques personally.  It may be due to not starting the critique with a positive statement but some are very sensitive about it.

I often mention Barbara Graham when I talk abut the value of NPN.  She was very involved for a few years, but her first post was very weak.  Several people made great comments and show took them to heart.  After a few months her work was dramatically better.  But she learned more from critiquing others.  It was fascinating to follow her progress.

Igor, thanks for starting this post!

 

Some people have a really difficult time taking any kind of what they perceive as criticism and it will be difficult for those people to take advantage of the expertise that is available on this site for improvement.

Ed & Steve both make mention of this important aspect of any critiquing environment. I'd like to say it takes being a bit thick skinned at times, but I think anyone with feelings at all can be jolted by harsh comments. I recall receiving a few over the years that I know could have been handled much better with regard to the verbiage used. Bluntness does nothing to aid a person who may not see their error. 

However, in order to really benefit from the experiences over time just how many comments set you back on your defensive heels? I think we'd all say very few and maybe we can consider the source of the comment more so then the input or actual comment. Again, the actual ratio is small compared to the overwhelming positive support received from others IMO.

Wow! It never occurred to me that "If it were mine, I would..." would be considered in a negative way.  When I say that what I mean is that everyone has their own ideas about creating images and this is just my idea.  I'm trying to say that their ideas and the ideas of others may be just as good or better than mine but that this is just my opinion.

Even after reading this I still don't understand what is offensive about that phrase but I truly hope I haven't offended or discouraged anyone. That was not my intention.

Anyway, in answer to your question, Igor, I think a good strategy is to look for what is good in the image and complement them on that and then mention anything specific that you think could improve the image.  I agree with Paul that if an image has a lot of flaws it's probably better to only point out a couple of them so as not to discourage the person who posted the image.

Wow! It never occurred to me that "If it were mine, I would..." would be considered in a negative way.  When I say that what I mean is that everyone has their own ideas about creating images and this is just my idea.  I'm trying to say that their ideas and the ideas of others may be just as good or better than mine but that this is just my opinion.
 

I am glad you brought this up because my purpose in using that approach is exactly what you say. I was surprised how this could have been misconstrued. The difference between 'this should be cropped' and 'I think this should be cropped' is that it's my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. Hoping that the suggestion will be more palatable if offered through humility.

"If it were (my topic)", I would review "The Art of Image Critique" under "Instruction". Lots of good stuff in there. It helps to review this on a regular basis (which I have failed to do, but will do now that Igor called attention to this important aspect of NPN). I also appreciate your follow up comments and all the comments and suggestions raised in response to your inquiry, Igor. 

This is a great topic and a very interesting discussion thus far.



I am also confused however regarding the "If it were mine . . ." aspect. I agree with those that do not understand why this is considered offensive to some - I find it one of the least offensive introductions for telling someone that they should be doing something other than what they have already done. Critiquing of creative works is after all just an opinion that the viewer may have and as with all opinions there will be as many people agree as there are that disagree, that's just how things work. During my 4+ years as an active member of NPN, the critiquing process here has been the biggest factor of all towards the improvement of my work by far. The critiques I receive are very helpful weather I agree or disagree with them. They open my mind to new ideas, offer new insights for creative possibilities and offer other options towards my work flow. Then there are the critiques that make me wonder: “What is this person thinking ?” and those are not offensive to me but reinforce my own artistic vision for a particular composition. Why anyone would get offended from another person’s opinion is beyond me especially when that person is taking the time and trying to be helpful by offering their ideas to help you improve your own work. I find that the more I learn, the less I know especially when it comes to photography, just keeping up with the changes in technology from cameras to computers to processing programs is a full time job.



If this ‘Critiquing a 'Weak' image’ forum post were mine, I would say lose the insecurities, believe in what you are doing and have faith in your ability to improve. Accept all comments on your work as positive and with an open mind so you do not miss out on the benefits those comments may offer.

Igor, I think I might disagree with your premise that folks think they're posting a great image to begin with.  When I joined NPN some 10-11 years ago I posted in order to receive that much needed criticism so I could improve my work.  I can remember actually posting asking for brutal honesty in critiques because that's the only way to improve.  I still want the same brutal honesty today even though I've stopped asking for it.

I think the best way to handle critiquing an image with obvious flaws is to be upfront about it, perhaps telling the poster that "since they're posting on a critique site, I assume you want honest critiques",  then outline your critique and suggestions for improvement.  If that offends them, well, they didn't really want a critique or to improve their craft IMHO.

Bill, the reason I said that everybody thinks that their image is great to begin with, is because I feel that way. Every time I post an image I think it's better than everyone's and am confused when others don't see it that way. I've been here 2 years and my images have improved. So if they have improved they could not have been great to start out with. So the images weren't great as I thought. 

I find it very hard to self critique because it's a subjective thing. There is so much emotion involved that it affects your own perception of your image. I believe that's why criticism can be painful. It may be related to personality types. For some it's probably like water off a duck's back. Lol. 

I've found this thread to very interesting.  I've been involved with NPN now for 13 years.  I took on the role of one of the Avian moderators in 2010.  While that role is not specifically about providing feedback, it does come with the responsibility to try to add value and provide honest critiques.

I'm also a member of my local camera club and have been for nearly 20 years.  Now I support the club by judging exhibitions and providing feedback.  That means standing in front of a group of 100+ photographers and providing input on about 100 images in a few hours. 

I also judge for the New Mexico State Fair.  That means judging/scoring and talking to photographers about their work.  That event has about 600 images per year.

I relay that background because there is one common thread I've observed about the photographers who have grown the most from any of these venues.  That common thread is they check their ego's at the door.  Yep, easy to say, VERY HARD to do, but those who do it and are willing to listen, are those that grow the most.  None of use have ever taken the perfect image, nor will any of us ever do so.  Every image has room for improvement and being open to the gift of feedback is incredibly important.  I think the most important aspect of critiquing a 'weak" image is being honest.  We can be honest in respectful ways, but at the end of the day, be honest.  Doing less, simply tells the photographer what they are doing is working even if that is not the case. 

I work with a number of excellent professional photographers who make their livings from workshops, teaching, selling images, etc.  On one occasion a "big name" in photography ( I won't provide the name as this story still repulses me) was critiquing images in front of a small class.  The "big name" said "who does this image belong to".  The person identified themselves.  The "big name" said you should take up a new hobby because this image "sucks... Let me spell that for you: S U C K S"...... Yes that really happened.  That is the worst example I've ever seen of how to provide feedback. 

We need to be honest, but we need to be helpful and constructive in why we are providing the feedback that has been requested.  At the same time the requester needs to be open to listen to the feedback.  It does not mean they need to agree with it, but if they don't listen, the chances of improving are very small. 

I review images in my LightRoom catalog on occasion.  I'll sort them from oldest to newest.  I'm thrilled when I see some of my older images that I thought were good at the time, that I now delete.  That gives me some hope that my skills and processing are improving over time.  I'm brutal in my editing.  Set a high standard for yourself and stick to it.  If the images you just reviewed don't meet the standard, they are not going to get any better spinning around on your hard drive, so..... delete them.  Shoot for a goal of raising that standard every year to 18 months. 

Igor said above: There is so much emotion involved that it affects your own perception of your image. I believe that's why criticism can be painful.

Yep, true.  I also preface my remarks at events where I'm providing an image critique in front of the group of photographers who took the images........  I'm NOT critiquing you, I'm critiquing your image

Tough to separate, but those that succeed at it, and check their egos at the door always walk away the winners.
 

Here's my .02: First, I'd rather receive comments with suggestions for improvement (translation: criticisms) than no comments at all. Not getting comments on an image post is what bothers me, particularly after I have taken the time to comment on others' images. It's also the single most reason why I may not reciprocate in commenting on an image in the same gallery. While you may infer from a lack of comments that the image does not resonate with others (i.e., is "weak"), it would still be good to know why. I just don't understand not commenting on images. As for receiving negative comments or suggestions, I get some I agree with and some I don't agree with. Photography is very subjective. However, getting comments with suggestions or criticism at least gives me another opinion to consider and possibly incorporate and/or learn from, which is one of the primary goals of this site. Making comments with suggestions for improvement is also (or at least should be) helpful to other participants who have the opportunity to view the image and then see suggestions for improvement.

As to prefacing a comment with, "If this were mine..," I agree with those who don't see anything wrong with this. It makes the critique a suggestions vs. a criticism. I have used this type of comment, but will avoid doing so in the future now that I know some may find it presumptuous. 

 

Those who leave no comments or leave comments for only exceptional images are doing so because they don't want to be confrontational IMO. We've been taught from early on "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything". This is considered just plain good manners. I agree that getting no comments is very deflating. It's no good for the board either because they leave. I think critiquing here is different than in a workshop environment where there is a clear teacher-student relationship. Here we are all peers so it's easy to dismiss a critique with "who's he to tell me this is a problem". 

critique

[kri-teek] 

noun


1.
an article or essay criticizing a literary or other work; detailed evaluation; review.

2.
a criticism or critical comment on some problem, subject, etc.

3.
the art or practice of criticism.

4.
to review or analyze critically.

 
Criticize

verb (used with object), criticized, criticizing.

1.
to censure or find fault with.

2.
to judge or discuss the merits and faults of:
to criticize three novels in one review.

3.
to find fault; judge unfavorably or harshly.

4.
to make judgments as to merits and faults.

Good topic. I think the most important thing to remember is this is a "critique" forum. As you can see from the definitions I copied and pasted from Dictionary.com To critique is to criticize and the word criticize usually has a negative connotation but not always.
When I do criticize negatively I always frame it as my opinion only and almost always from a creative standpoint which is purely subjective anyway. Often if a negative opinion is stated in the form of a fact it can seem offensive, so I think it is important to make that distinction clear from the onset. I stay away from commenting on composition except to suggest a possible crop. Only the shooter knows what was outside the frame as presented so to say "more room on the right" or a similar suggestion is really quite pointless. I'm of the opinion that in most cases if someone is offended by a critique it is usually because the poster is too thin skinned or doesn't understand the purpose of the forum rather that the commenter actually being offensive. Great point Igor about the student/teacher relationship vs peers.



 

Steve Kennedy, thanks for remembering me and using me as an example. :)  I think the difference between me and many others is that I actually DIDN'T know anything, anything at all, and many others either do know something or they think they do.  If you know what you don't know it's much easier to ask to be taught.

I used to be confused, though, about NPN with regard to the fact that it was supposed to be for critiquing (that's actually why I joined it, and I even emailed Jim before joining and asked him if it was okay to join if you didn't know anything but you wanted to, and he said absolutely) but yet there were always people who did not contribute much except for posting images and whose images got nothing but praise.  Some NPN members (you know who you are :)) went way above and beyond in helping other people out, because their purpose in being here was to help other people.  The fact that they posted great images in addition to that was icing on the cake for the rest of us.  But there were and may still be people who don't give much and who want a lot of praise.  When those people are "honored" by NPN, either officially or just in praise, I question that.  The people who should be honored should be those who give the most, not those who want the most.




 

Both of my thumbs are up Barbara!  It was great to follow your progress and I'm very happy you're still here.

And your point is a good one. 

Nice to follow the  discussion on this topic.  I 've gone from being embarrassed by my comments that say, "If it were mine, I..." to feeling ok that many others feel it is not a disparaging opening for a critique or commentary. I am disappointed that I do not  find too many critiques within the commentaries on many posted photos. I post what I consider to be my better images and I don't think they are great, just something that I want genuine feed back on, such as composition, camera settings light, pattern, etc. I do agree that commenting or critiquing  is an excellent way to improve.

Wow. This is getting kind of long. Maybe I should start a new thread. 

Wow. This is getting kind of long. Maybe I should start a new thread. 

Let's just let this one roll, Igor. A similar thread would be confusing. Thanks.

If you have a new topic--post away, sir!
--P

An interesting topic and a few points for me to think about as well (including the fact that i don't look at the forum part of the site very often ...).  I found the point about commenting on composition (especially about off camera possibilities) interesting since for me this is one of the things (composition in general) i most often critique.  The reason for this is that this is the thing that can most help in terms of the actual photography - yes it may not help the 'current' image - and if it was an image from a once in a lifetime trip/landscape image then it could be (probably will be) extremely frustrating to receive the suggestion "... a little more left may have been better" but it may help when the person is looking through the viewfinder next time ... and if its a macro/floral image perhaps bought to mind sooner - Yes of course there may have been a good reason that its wasn't possible - which of course would be fair enough but that's not the point and here i would expect something along the lines of the poster - "Not my ideal standpoint etc. etc. but i thought ..." .  The decision point that defines the photo is when the shutter is pressed - even for a Jedi Photoshoper ... 
How the image is processed and finally presented is for me of course a matter of personal taste and judgment and here the critique may well be (for me often is) more of a personal viewpoint and thus simply an alternative perspective.  

But returning to the original theme: Without a doubt, critique of a weaker image is probably the most important way of helping others develop, and, If i am honest with myself, I do not do this nearly as often as I know I should ... (time for some self reflection i feel ...)

BTW despite my English background, 20 years in Germany (and, excuse to hand, a certain lack of time) mean that i am, at times, perhaps a little more direct than i should be - hopefully, people have enough access to pinches of salt ;-) ...

I am a rank beginner, bought my D7200 and started my intro to photography class mid September 2016. I found NPN very soon and have been looking at hundreds of photos and critiques. I've read threads on NPN regarding beginners, who were encouraged to "jump right in", and on doing critiques and making comments.
While I have several of my images that I really like, I am still at the "can I control the settings on my camera" stage and I'm sure the images would fall in the "very weak"  category on this site. 
I see the emphasis on commenting, but since I don't yet understand much of the process used to make most of the photos, my comments would be very limited and not that useful. I will try to start as much as I can.
When I do jump in and start posting images, I expect there will be a lot of criticism, including of very basic errors. I will include my beginner status in my post info, so people can direct criticisms to beginner issues rather than filters or stacks etc etc. for which I am not yet ready. Criticism does feel bad BUT, that's why I would post the image in the first place. If someone leaves NPN because of criticism, maybe they only expected kudos and didn't really come to learn anything.
The discussion above is right on target, and I appreciate the attitude and acceptance shown by the people on this site.
One of these days, I will post an image and people will say "WOW, I love it", but it will take a long while.

Dan Schwartz
Northbrook, IL

Dan, I just wanted to say not to be afraid to post images or critiques.  Your critiques (and mine) will usually not be as detailed as those of more experienced photographers, but they're still worth something.  I know nothing about focus stacking and several other things, but there are lots of images that I can still critique.  And remember that critiques are only suggestions and include comments on what you like, so if you think someone might want to try a different crop or you think part of an image should be lighter or darker, you should feel free to suggest that, and they are free to try it or not, as they wish.

And as far as images, long before you post an image that people will say "WOW, I love it," you will post images that people will say, "Good job" or "Excellent job," and that will make you smile.  They still may make suggestions you can try, but that doesn't mean they like it any less. 

I'm glad you're here.