Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 28, 2017 at 8:24 AM
Another new year, another round of contemplated tweaks & updates for the NPN website. As always, we want your thoughts and feedback so we can plan and budget accordingly!
Here are two we are considering;
New Follow Feature
This new feature would allow all (members and non-members) to select NPN photographers they would like to follow and place all of their photos in their own Follow Gallery (just like Flagged photos). A link would be provided to Follow/Unfollow on the photo display screen (where comments are posted) and a “Followed Photogs” link would be placed in the main Galleries drop-down menu to access the Followed Gallery. Of course, a direct link from a browser favorites menu could be used to directly access the NPN Followed Gallery as well.
With this feature, a viewer would have immediate/direct access to all photos posted by their Followed NPN photogs. Unlike Facebook, our photo presentation would include use of the Lightbox Slideshow feature on the Followed Gallery thumbnails screen and the ability to view all photos in their 1600 pixel/1 MB hi-res glory!
Update Regional Forums
The original premise of the RFs was for members from nearby areas to have discussion and post photos specific to their region. With a couple of notable exceptions, the RFs were never a huge hit and since so many now post such photos on Facebook, the NPN Regional Forums are forgotten and unused.
In this proposal, we would “repurpose” the RFs to become general informational resources for the regions served. We would encourage all members to post the following in the appropriate RF;
· Photos taken in the area, including the specifics of where the photo was taken
· Services offered in the area such as lodging, car rental, restaurants, etc.
· Any information that might be useful for a photographer planning on visiting the region
· NPN members would be allowed to post their photo tours
As part of this, the RF graphics would be removed from header section and replaced with simple text describing the area covered. All existing posts in each RF would remain.
If anyone has any other suggestions for site updates, please feel free to post them in this thread!
Thanks, Jim.... and thanks for your ongoing improvements! I have three suggestions (for now). I use an Ipad most of the time for viewing. When viewing the galleries, the posted photos show four across with a strip of blank white space on either side. I would like to suggest 5 across. That would allow more photos on the viewing screen and would eliminate some of the annoying white area. Also, I think that more photos would remain viewable before they moved to the next page. Second, the text is so small when trying to choose from the drop down menus. It would be nice to have it made larger. While my eyes are still plenty good enough to see the small text, it is hard to select when using my large hot dog fingers. Third, I would like to see page selection also at the bottom of the gallery photo page. As it is now we have to scroll back to the top of the page to select "page 2,3, etc."
Posted by Mark Seaver on January 28, 2017 at 10:30 AM
Sounds good Jim. This would be a good opportunity to improve the site's rendering of 720px images from a 1600px version. That would help out us folks who don't feel like creating and posting 2 version of the same image. I have mixed feeling about the page selection at the bottom. It is a great convenience to have it, but I do understand the programming values of using the "top of page" button and then moving to the next page. With some regularity, especially when looking a member's galleries, I get several pages deep and the single click approach is nice.
Posted by Ian Wolfenden on January 28, 2017 at 2:23 PM
Jim : thanks for starting this thread.
1. The Follow feature could be nice to use, though I do find people's galleries quite easily on the site as is, so I don't have especially strong feelings about it.
2. Reworking the Regional Forums along the lines you suggest sounds well worth a try.
3. There was a suggestion a year or more ago about possibly integrating the Portfolios with the Galleries - has that died a death, as being too tricky ?
4. There were also to be further Slide Shows - have they now gone or are you still awaiting contributions ?
Here is a quote from that thread by Jim about integrating PPN with NPN, and a "Plan B" for PPN:
One of the advantages of having PPN as a separate site is that the software can be 100% dedicated to the mission of the site, something that cannot be done on NPN without me hitting Powerball. Which leads me to this: Plan B would be to update the looks of PPN to be more consistent with NPN without any software updates. So, it would remain functionally as-is but look and feel just like NPN.
Thoughts?
I certainly support "Plan B", and would like to see it happen, along with the "Follow Feature".
--P
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 28, 2017 at 4:37 PM
Yes, PhotoPortfolios could be updated with a minimum of cost to look/feel more like NPN.
I wonder how many feel PhotoPortfolios still has value to them?
Posted by Max Waugh on January 28, 2017 at 4:55 PM
I'd still like to see a navigation to the "next" pages in a gallery on the bottom in addition to the existing one up top. It's annoying having to scroll back up to click to the next page after reaching the bottom.
Max
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 28, 2017 at 5:57 PM
1. Would like the background color chosen to appear in the popups as a frame around image.
2. Currently you can add one hyperlink per comment. Would like to increase that limit to have many more.
3. Would like the comment page to have a star rating for the image which people could rate with or without leaving a comment. These would be averaged and the average displayed along with the number voted. This would be like the Yelp online review for any dentist or physician you read online. This may help with participation for those who don't want to take time to leave a comment? However it could backfire and result in fewer comments?
3. Would like the comment page to have a star rating for the image which people could rate with or without leaving a comment. These would be averaged and the average displayed along with the number voted. This would be like the Yelp online review for any dentist or physician you read online. This may help with participation for those who don't want to take time to leave a comment? However it could backfire and result in fewer comments?
Ratings and "Like" buttons have been discussed here on several occasions, Igor. Most were not in favor of the idea for the reason you state in the last sentence of your paragraph. Additionally, aggregate ratings would make NPN a "competition", and personally, I would not support ratings or aggregates of any kind. Just my 0.02.
--P
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 28, 2017 at 7:38 PM
Additionally, aggregate ratings would make NPN a "competition", and personally, I would not support ratings or aggregates of any kind. Just my 0.02
A rating is no more a competition at NPN than it is on any online review app (Yelp). It's a way to help a casual viewer to access the most highly valued images directly instead of going through all one at a time. As stated it may actually add viewership.
Heck, you could take this further and add rating as a sort criteria or even do searches based upon it. There are those who would find it valuable.
Posted by Keith Bauer on January 28, 2017 at 9:45 PM
I think one of the most important things to resolve is the color differences created between the large and small versions of the images posted when only a large version is uploaded. The current software does not honor the color space and consequently, there are often color and saturation differences between the two versions.
I think one of the most important things to resolve is the color differences created between the large and small versions of the images posted when only a large version is uploaded. The current software does not honor the color space and consequently, there are often color and saturation differences between the two versions.
I heartily agree with Keith here.
-p
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 29, 2017 at 7:50 AM
I will have a discussion with DtP about the color space issue. Being able to upload only the large file and have the software generate the intermediate is IMO a big benefit, providing it does so adequately.
Can someone post links to images that most clearly illustrate the problem so I can show DtP?
I have thought of a rating system based on multiple attributes of the photo. For example, the ability to rate a photo based on the following;
composition
use of light
sharpness and detail
mood
web presentation (post shutter processing)
visual impact
...and whatever else I have not listed here
A score of 1 to 5 would be assigned to each attribute with the average used to display the rating. Additionally, a mandatory text box would be provided for each attribute for comments specific to the attribute, along with a "final thoughts" text box to summarize the critique.
In this way, the system could provide detailed, informative feedback to the OP. Along with this I would also set up the system to require five critiques for every photo uploaded for critique.
If we were to do this, we want to avoid at all costs is a "hit and run" rating system that discourages useful critique and does little to help a member advance their photography.
Along with this, I would also set up the system to require five critiques for every photo uploaded for critique.
Jim, if I understand this statement is the poster "required" to comment 5 times before their image would appear as we've mentioned in the past?.......or, are you seeing it differently?
I know it is not ideal IMO and many say it is missing the point to just receive a comment of "looks good" in order to meet the requirement. But, on the other hand when does it make sense to have a negative number of comments to the positive number of images being posted by certain individuals. The guidelines have always stated a recommended 5 to 1 ratio. I think that is an acceptable low point, but going negative below a 1:1 ratio, sorry, does not work in my world.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 29, 2017 at 8:12 AM
Paul, the system I am envisioning would require maintaining the 5:1 ratio of comments to posted photos. Otherwise, they would not be able to upload their own photos.
The system I described above - a combination of ratings and commentary by attribute - would help ensure that the critique is useful to the OP.
Jim, very clear and totally understood, thank you !
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 29, 2017 at 8:45 AM
A mock-up of a rating-critique system commentary screen (an entry would be required in all fields);
COMPOSITION * ** *** **** *****
Commentary:
USE OF LIGHT * ** *** **** *****
Commentary:
SHARPNESS & DETAIL* ** *** **** *****
Commentary:
VISUAL IMPACT* ** *** **** *****
Commentary:
WEB PRESENTATION* ** *** **** *****
Commentary:
CRITIQUE SUMMARY
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 29, 2017 at 9:01 AM
Thinking this through further, once a member posts a critique on a photo, they will be able to follow-up with comments on the same photo: only the the single text box already used would be presented. In this way, there can be ongoing discussion about the photo once their critique is posted.
If we decide to do something like this, I'll have to start a GoFundMe campaign to pay for it!
Jim, this looks a bit regimented for some, but with all do respect it might well be needed for others. I've always thought the "freewheeling" approach with comments worked well, however, the need to implement a mandatory minimum activity level to obtain a decent input overall was needed as years have gone by. I'm not saying it is a generational item overall, but maybe a FB path of lest resistance to gratification hits the mark as time has gone by. Maybe not exactly a drive-by, but a bit of fly-by post image and run.........
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 29, 2017 at 11:13 AM
Paul, I agree that expectations may have evolved over time here on NPN. Is the old "freestyle" critique process still adequate? Should it be improved upon? If so, how?
We can (within reasonable limitations) make it anything we want it to be.
Jim. I still use Photoportfolios exclusively as a website and would hate to see it go. My suggestion for improvement would be a slide show feature on it and the regular galleries.
As to the star or number grading of images I feel that is impersonal and would eliminate the "family" feel that is an integral part of the website. Most of us get graded this way in our local camera clubs. Suggestions and critiques from photographers we trust are much more important to improving out skills.
In other words, yes I value Photoportfolios.net. Also I strongly disagree that you MUST comment in order to post. Most of us do comment. Third, I don't want to be rated either by stars or number.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 29, 2017 at 12:02 PM
Patricia, thanks for the feedback! We're certainly not looking to fix something that isn't broken but I think having these kind of conversations from time to time is useful.
Thanks again for your thoughts!
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 29, 2017 at 1:22 PM
It's hard to say whether when a large image was uploaded on it's own and the small was recreated. Or if even a large and small image were uploaded but processed differently. Here is an image where the large and small version seem to have different colors. The smaller version has less intense colors and they even seem to be different, more cyan in one and less in the other. As requested, I'm providing this link to possibly help figure out if NPN processing is causing these changes.
Posted by Keith Bauer on January 29, 2017 at 1:22 PM
I will have a discussion with DtP about the color space issue. Being able to upload only the large file and have the software generate the intermediate is IMO a big benefit, providing it does so adequately.
Can someone post links to images that most clearly illustrate the problem so I can show DtP?
Here are a couple. Pull up the regular image, then the larger. Even better put them side by side in two different windows in your browser:
Also I strongly disagree that you MUST comment in order to post.
Jim, as in the past I'm sure I'm in the minority with regard to the MUST comment "quota" system, but also fully understand why it's never been a requirement either. To each his own.......
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 29, 2017 at 1:38 PM
A rating system, if it worked properly, would open up all the archived images that nobody looks at and could garner more traffic. The truth is that images are seldom looked at after they scroll off the first page. I know this because once an image goes off the front page its view count stays the same. There were some great ones in the past. Rating them is just one way to encourage their access.
It seems to me that there are some newcomers that may start off posting a lot of photos and leaving few comments, but eventually they all seem to come around once they get comfortable with commenting. I'm all for letting that happen naturally. Some of these new contributors are very good photographers. Let's not scare them off. The very few that don't come around get the idea once people stop commenting on their submissions as time goes by.
I am one of those who thinks it should be mandatory to have more comments than posts. I am probably one of the few who has told people they need to comment more. It seems like we get folks on here who just want to post. Honestly, I don't think they are scared to comment, I think they just don't want to go to the trouble. Sometimes it seems that after they don't get a bunch of feedback, they seem to disappear. Yes, most of us DO comment, but there are still those who do not. This is one of my hot buttons. I look at the person's numbers, and if they have more posts than comments, I do not comment on their image.
What is it that makes NPN different? I think a big part of it is the honest comments and critique, and not making it a ratings game.
Should the ratio be 5 to 1 on comments to posts? I don't know, but that's a pretty easy number to get to.
Posted by Richard Ditch on January 29, 2017 at 5:42 PM
As a long time participant at NPN (my first image post here was in March of 2001), reading this thread has been a trip down memory lane in many ways. My positions on old discussions remain the same:
I don't want to see comments turned into a star or rating system of any kind
I don't want to feel like I'm in a competition with other photographers (what happens with a rating system)
Although an outline approach to what should be in a comment may be helpful to people new to NPN I think it stifles viewing and commenting
we've tried recommending a comment to post ratio many times and it doesn't work
I don't use the Regional Forums as currently configured, although over the years I've occasionally looked in them. I feel that these regional forums keep good images from reaching their wider potential audience and possibly hurt the non regional galleries. So, making them into guides for regions could have value.
Concerning the color differences between large and small images I see that the three example links provided (Igor, Keith) all lead to images by Sandy Richards. We've discussed her problem in the past in the general forum and with specific images. Basically Sandy uploads a single large image that has been prepared in Adobe RGB and embeds that color profile. My browser (Safari mostly but occasionally Firefox) is color aware and renders the large image as Adobe RGB as Sandy expects it to be seen. But the smaller 720px image derived behind the scenes at NPN strips out the color profile so Safari renders it as sRGB making it less saturated.
Regarding the Portfolio feature, I can't recall the last time I visited my own portfolio. I remember setting it up many years ago, and even collecting stuff that I thought should be reworked as well as new images to add, but it never seemed worth the effort.
I am one of those who thinks it should be mandatory to have more comments than posts. I am probably one of the few who has told people they need to comment more. It seems like we get folks on here who just want to post. Honestly, I don't think they are scared to comment, I think they just don't want to go to the trouble. Sometimes it seems that after they don't get a bunch of feedback, they seem to disappear. Yes, most of us DO comment, but there are still those who do not. This is one of my hot buttons. I look at the person's numbers, and if they have more posts than comments, I do not comment on their image.
What is it that makes NPN different? I think a big part of it is the honest comments and critique, and not making it a ratings game.
Should the ratio be 5 to 1 on comments to posts? I don't know, but that's a pretty easy number to get to.
I would like to think that given the time most usually join in once they're acclimated to the site and routine as Charlie mentions. Additionally, that they finally do take time during one of their many posts to read the recommended guidelines of 5 to 1 ratio.
However, a quick review on any given week will uncover folks dating back over 5 years now that hold less then a 5 to 1 ratio. So, holding out hope for those types seems a waste.
And yes, we can sure skip commenting on their images as making a point, but that does not seem to work too well at times as their images still become WP's on occasion.........
Maybe a WP for a person who is consistent at commenting is a point to be recognized......
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 29, 2017 at 6:36 PM
And yes, we can sure skip commenting on their images as making a point, but that does not seem to work too well at times as their images still become WP's on occasion.
We could certainly require a 5:1 ratio minimum to be eligible for a WP!
We could certainly require a 5:1 ratio minimum to be eligible for a WP!
Jim, a good thought and works towards coaxing some of those folks to meeting expectations. I took a very quick review on one gallery just now and my point was true & valid.
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 29, 2017 at 6:58 PM
Just a comment about the rating system as proposed by Jim above. There have been several comments made about not wanting 'to replace the comments with ratings'. That's not the proposal as outlined above. There are checks for rating and a box for comments in the layout.
I agree with Rich. I guess for me it's not that big a deal if someone wants to join and then just show us all of their photos, and then not comment. And if that photographer is good enough to win a weekly pick, then it's good enough just to have them here as a resource to ask questions or to get to know. If it bugs you, then don't comment on their photos. If they leave because of that, then that's okay too. Photos for the WP and EP should be chosen on the merit of the photograph alone in my opinion. I just think that setting up rules and hurdles to getting your photos included will just create an uneven playing field. If I won a weekly pick, but saw a photo that could have been chosen and I knew was probably better but wasn't chosen for lack of comments, it sort of minimizes the win.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 29, 2017 at 7:36 PM
If I won a weekly pick, but saw a photo that could have been chosen and I knew was probably better but wasn't chosen for lack of comments, it sort of minimizes the win.
Along with this I would also set up the system to require five critiques for every photo uploaded for critique.
To clarify my point throughout it was only based in response to this item listed above and how to best approach that idea. For me it was always simple, put a hook in the system to require that quota.
This has not one thing to do with the outcome of a WP and the amount of comments it would or would not receive. The WP selection(s) I assume are based upon a collective input from the site moderators and management. Making the total comments made on any given image a non-issue and would remain that way. The hook or any other idea to IMPROVE total comments overall has been on review for years in many discussions as I recall and nothing to do with WP's.
The thought of a poster not receiving a WP if they're below the recommended 5:1 ratio was just another idea to move folks toward the goal in sharing with site input and nothing more.
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 29, 2017 at 8:11 PM
Photos for the WP and EP should be chosen on the merit of the photograph alone in my opinion
I agree.
There must be a better way to encourage participation.
Posted by Keith Bauer on January 30, 2017 at 11:38 AM
Photos for the WP and EP should be chosen on the merit of the photograph alone
100% agree. If there are additional constraints put on choosing the pick such as evaluating the comment / post ratio, the place that lands is on the moderators. I'm not interested in doing anything except looking at the quality of the images to make my selections.
Posted by Steve Kennedy on January 30, 2017 at 11:39 AM
"Photos for the WP and EP should be chosen on the merit of the photograph alone in my opinion"
I agree with this as well.
As for requiring a ratio of comments to posts, I'm concerned it will cause more people to drop their membership. We've lost so many people already.
I don't want to see comments turned into a star or rating system of any kind
I agree with Richard on this. I don't see the value. I love seeing the critical comments on my photos, especially the comments telling me how to improve it. I don't always agree with the comments but I still appreciate them and try to look at my photo from that perspective. A rating system would be too vague to be valuable.
Posted by Bill Chambers on January 30, 2017 at 12:02 PM
Personally, I think people should comment more, but requiring them to do so, especially with a given ratio, will just put off certain people and allow the others to just post a useless, one word comment like "pretty" or some other waste of time comment. I say let's just leave it like it is. Those that comment very little usually garner few comments themselves as us "old timers" ignore them because of their lack of comments on other's work.
Posted by Bill Chambers on January 30, 2017 at 12:08 PM
As for rating an image, I'm aginst a star rating system. I DO NOT want NPN to turn into a competition. NPN is more about instruction, mentorship, and critique. Competition might scare off new, timid photographers (and we were all there at some point!). Looking back, I first joined NPN because I thought it was a safe place to learn more without the ugly comments that seem to come along with competition. I think the critique mock-up that Jim posted might be helpful for comments, but do it WITHOUT the star rating system. I want NPN to be about learning and helping others, not a competition.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 30, 2017 at 12:14 PM
Great conversation, all the input is greatly appreciated!
So it looks like the sole remaining item on possible NPN upgrades (not including PhotoPortfolios) is the Follow feature as described in the first post. Does this really excite anyone or is just...meh?
Posted by Bill Chambers on January 30, 2017 at 12:19 PM
Jim, I don't think I like the "Follow" aspect, but I have really given it much thought either. To me, it might cause less participation as people just follow 1 or 2 favorites and ignore the new, upcoming shooters who join NPN to gather comments from us more experienced shooters. However, maybe I don't understand it either.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 30, 2017 at 12:27 PM
Bill, I see your point. I'm beginning to think that the effort should focus on PhotoPortfolios at this time.
When Jim first mentioned the idea of "Follow, I embraced it, but after reading this from Bill;
To me, it might cause less participation as people just follow 1 or 2 favorites and ignore the new, upcoming shooters who join NPN to gather comments from us more experienced shooters.
I find myself less in favor of it. Even though I have been doing photography since 1971, I am still learning, and all comments I receive on my work are deeply appreciated. Therefore, I agree with Bill, here, not only for myself, but for all NPNers.
I have always liked the 'free wheeling' way comments on images are written, so the structured comment boxes in Jim's mock-up above do not really work for me.
On the subject of PhotoPortfolios, I like Jim's thought as to priorities for updates.
I'm beginning to think that the effort should focus on PhotoPortfolios at this time.
Jim, I appreciate you for really listening to our feedback and suggestions, and your efforts to keep NPN the best image critique site on the Web!
--P
Posted by Keith Bauer on January 30, 2017 at 1:27 PM
Bill, I see your point. I'm beginning to think that the effort should focus on PhotoPortfolios at this time.
In the thread specific to the use of Photo Portfolios, there are only 10 responses at this point. I don't see that as any endorsement to spend time on it. If people want a web presence sites like Smugmug or Zenfolio provide a FAR more robust option than anything that could be put together in any amount of time. I'd much rather see energy focused on the interface for the bread and butter of NPN and that is the photo critique galleries.
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 30, 2017 at 2:29 PM
I DO NOT want NPN to turn into a competition.
Aren't the Weekly Picks, Gallery of the Month, and year end awards competitions? Should those be eliminated as well?
In the thread specific to the use of Photo Portfolios, there are only 10 responses at this point. I don't see that as any endorsement to spend time on it. If people want a web presence sites like Smugmug or Zenfolio provide a FAR more robust option than anything that could be put together in any amount of time. I'd much rather see energy focused on the interface for the bread and butter of NPN and that is the photo critique galleries.
Totally agree.....
Aren't the Weekly Picks, Gallery of the Month, and year end awards competitions?
It would sure seem to lean towards that idea as acknowledgment of one's efforts put forth IMO.
Jim, an item to possibly entertain as a small tweak within budget maybe is to add the running member total and a real time on-line total of folks at the given time as part of the site header. As part of that dashboard listing would be the site start date too.
I work with an old analog site that has it and I'm amazed at the world wide numbers I see there. It might help bring focus to some thoughts on participation that all can see. Just thinking out loud......
Posted by Bill Chambers on January 30, 2017 at 4:08 PM
I DO NOT want NPN to turn into a competition.
Aren't the Weekly Picks, Gallery of the Month, and year end awards competitions? Should those be eliminated as well?
Hi Igor, perhaps I'm a little naive, but I see those picks as more of an acknowledgment of excellence that competition; ie, those people would be posting regardless of whether the picks were being made or not. If there were prizes being awarded, etc. then I would see it as a competition.
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 30, 2017 at 4:38 PM
Excellent Bill. I have been thinking somewhat on those lines but a bit different. The picks and galleries are awards in themselves so there is competition. The difference is that they are awards for excellence. A rating system rates both as being good and bad. Receiving a single star can actually be difficult for some people to handle. So there is a negative side to it.
However, I can't point out how often I read quotes virtually everywhere stating that all real growth occurs with failure. And that's in all walks of life. Someone who gets a single star has a much greater motivation to change than someone who gets nothing but accolades. There's 2 sides to the coin, a chance to grow or take it as an insult. I prefer to see it as helpful. I would not have categories of rating. Just 5 stars
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 30, 2017 at 4:50 PM
Following the above reward vs punishment idea. I suggest that the way to encourage more commenting on the images is to provide some sort of reward. A reward that's desirable enough to pursue it. I frankly have no ideas. Good ones, that is. Perhaps we can go in that direction? Rather than punishing those with less than a 5:1 ratio.
PS. Logistically speaking, commentator of the month would be nightmarish to accomplish. The moderator would have to read a week's worth of comments. Ay Caramba!
I'd much rather see energy focused on the interface for the bread and butter of NPN and that is the photo critique galleries.
Keith, aside from making improvements to the current differences in display between the small and large versions of images, what other suggestions do you have?
Igor, while there is a low level of competition here at NPN, it is friendly, and I would like for it to remain this way. The Gallery of the Month, Weekly Picks, and the annual Editor's Pick Awards not only recognize excellence, they are inspirational, and also serve as marketing for NPN.
While failure can lead to growth, acknowledging failure in a public venue such as NPN may be hurtful, and cause a struggling photographer to simply give up and leave. Accolades serve to inspire not only the recipient but also others who view the comments. In light of these two concepts, a written critique that contains suggestions for improvement and accolades Is a good thing, and has been the backbone of NPN since its beginning. 'Like' buttons, 'stars', or a numerical rating system would not enhance NPN, in my opinion.
--P
Rather than punishing those with less than a 5:1 ratio.
Agreed Igor, the word "punishing" might a bit harsh, but at the same time I do not see the word "rewarding" those same folks who do not carry a 5:1 ratio being used in the same sentence either.
For the thought that we do not want to set TOO many restrictions on the lack of not commenting as possibly losing those participants from posting their images, I truly wonder how many folks we lost over time who really participated with 5:1+ ratios and left because they felt those others only posted to receive the rewards from the site. Again, if the site is based upon the teaching & learning experience would it not be beneficial for all to help across the board? Basically stated that the site was not intended to be just show & tell.
A lot of you folks are old enough to remember "real" slide shows. I'm sure some of you still have that slide projector in the closet. Remember when you were a kid and you visited your uncle Bob, and uncle Bob broke out the slide projector and spent the whole evening showing photos of things that you didn't really care about that much? He was the one that got the most enjoyment out of showing you what he'd been up to. That's how I view the people that just post and don't comment. They're not really here for the feedback, they just want to show us their photos. They are looking for the companionship of other photographers and are mostly a pretty friendly bunch. Where else and to who are they gonna' show all of those photos? I'm okay with that. Some of them are actually pretty good, and we might learn something just from seeing their work. They don't necessarily want more than an "atta boy", and are just happy to show us their stuff. The fact is that they are here, and there is no upside to chasing them off.
People have left NPN for a lot of reasons, not just for a lack of comments. We need to figure out the best way to include the newcomers and to get them to stay and to participate. There are a lot of very good photographers that used to post on NPN, but have moved away and still post daily on other sites. They don't get any more or less comments "over there" than they did here. I think that we need to figure out why they've left and what could have been done differently here to prevent that. For now, I'll put up with uncle Bob until we come up with the answer to that question.
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 30, 2017 at 9:03 PM
The thing about this participatory website is that it's a give and take thing. When you comment you give. And when getting some comments on your image, you take. If you only post images and don't comment you're just taking. When the givers see a user who never comments in their images they stop giving.
I don't mind someone showing off their stuff but if they expect thoughtful analysis they better provide it as well. If they want to post without receiving comments I'm fine with that. They're not really serious about their hobby/profession and that's fine.
I just did a quick check on the Avian gallery. Of the 48 photos on the page, 10 of the posts were by people with much less than a 5:1 ratio. That's more than 20 percent. This is a more than a few. It seems that there are multiple posts from chronic offenders. I guess I didn't realize things had reached this state. Sheesh. Maybe at least there could be a trigger where you can only post once every 48 hours until you at least clear the 5:1 threshold. So much for the voice of reason.
Posted by Keith Bauer on January 30, 2017 at 11:02 PM
Keith, aside from making improvements to the current differences in display between the small and large versions of images, what other suggestions do you have?
I'd still like to see the overall look and feel of the NPN site modernized. I know we've had discussions on this in the past. The behaviors of some other nature photography sites is more pleasing to me (I know it is a personal preference as to what is pleasing).
I believe the look and feel of a site is important. Some improvements were made last year and I'm thankful for those. I believe we need to continue to invest in modernization.
I'm also not fond of the dialog box for posting an image. The UI to do so needs to be easier to discern where to post the larger version and where the smaller version goes. You have to read carefully (and I'm not exactly new to this site) to see which is which so I have empathy for newer members trying to figure it out.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Posted by Bill Chambers on January 30, 2017 at 11:47 PM
I'm also not fond of the dialog box for posting an image. The UI to do so needs to be easier to discern where to post the larger version and where the smaller version goes. You have to read carefully (and I'm not exactly new to this site) to see which is which so I have empathy for newer members trying to figure it out.
Keith has a very valid point with this comment. I've been on NPN for 12 years now and it confuses me every time I post an image.
I just did a quick check on the Avian gallery. Of the 48 photos on the page, 10 of the posts were by people with much less than a 5:1 ratio. That's more than 20 percent. This is a more than a few. It seems that there are multiple posts from chronic offenders. I guess I didn't realize things had reached this state. Sheesh. Maybe at least there could be a trigger where you can only post once every 48 hours until you at least clear the 5:1 threshold. So much for the voice of reason.
Charlie, thank you very much for taking the review. It aids my point I made a day or two back. Early on in this thread I had double checked my own perception on the matter and told Jim I had verified my point with a very quick look at only one page in one gallery. For me it was no surprise as I knew from history the shortfall posters.
Sadly, this subject has been raised numerous times over the years with no cohesive and amiable answer on how to rectify the issue. I said years ago the only way I could see a resolution was to place a hook in the system that forced the 5:1 ratio. However, many came to defending the point and said it was not needed. So, are we at another impasse at this time? Hard to say.
The item about not "rewarding" as it were with WP's was merely an option to maybe soften the blow instead of the mandatory hook of 5:1. Basically, if they kept posting and not commenting they would not know why or why they did not receive WP's either. Many I suspect never read the Forums either.
Anyway, tomorrow is a new day.........
Posted by Bill Chambers on January 31, 2017 at 12:13 AM
I'm also not fond of the dialog box for posting an image. The UI to do so needs to be easier to discern where to post the larger version and where the smaller version goes. You have to read carefully (and I'm not exactly new to this site) to see which is which so I have empathy for newer members trying to figure it out.
Keith has a very valid point with this comment. I've been on NPN for 12 years now and it confuses me every time I post an image.
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 31, 2017 at 12:24 AM
Regarding modernizing the interface: The main web page should not display a portion of the image, requiring you to scroll to see all of it. See below. This is not a situation where the image is too large or the window is too small. The image should increase or decrease along with the window as it's resized.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on January 31, 2017 at 6:18 AM
Following!
As far as the photo upload UI, anyone want to take a shot at mocking one up?
Keith, very impressive and looks great to me. Although I never had issues using the system as is, this view would help guide the folks who have struggled with the uploads.
Posted by Igor Doncov on January 31, 2017 at 3:19 PM
Regarding the Personal Gallery.
Sometimes I either forget to check the box to keep it beyond 45 days or I change my mind and decide it was worth keeping in the gallery. The only way to get the image into the gallery is to resubmit it to the landscape gallery and tell viewers to that it's not necessary to comment on it. Should we come up with a method of directly uploading to our galleries?
Should we come up with a method of directly uploading to our galleries?
Good point, Igor, Maybe the galleries could be setup to work more flexibly and possibly replace the separate portfolio as it seems the galleries are usually a lot more real time active.
Posted by Ed Williams on January 31, 2017 at 3:41 PM
I think it would help to remember some people are not as comfortable with the English language as others are, so they may lack confidence to post. Also, I believe others are not as comfortable with photographic language and technics and may not really understand why they like and what is not right with a certain photo or setting. I find that the frequent posters, infrequent commentors are usually newer members of our community here, and many of them eventually get braver as they realize it is for their own benefit.
That said, I wonder if the prompt list of characteristics to look for that Jim has provided would be good to give people an idea of what to comment about. Not a rating sheet, just a prompt. This may lead to more and more useful comments. Not sure where to keep it posted, perhaps in the header for each Forum if there is room for it. i.e. Elements to consider in reviewing images - Composition, Use of Light, Sharpness & Detail, Mood, Web Presentation, Visual Impact, etc. I do think it needs to be readily available for it to have any impact. So if hidden under instructions (which are only consulted in extreme cases, especially when it comes to males of our species), it may not be that useful.
I also like the idea of modernizing the look even more than last year's upgrades.
Jim, thank you for allowing us to comment on these issues.
I think it would help to remember some people are not as comfortable with the English language as others are, so they may lack confidence to post. Also, I believe others are not as comfortable with photographic language and technics and may not really understand why they like and what is not right with a certain photo or setting. I find that the frequent posters, infrequent commentors are usually newer members of our community here, and many of them eventually get braver as they realize it is for their own benefit.
That said, I wonder if the prompt list of characteristics to look for that Jim has provided would be good to give people an idea of what to comment about. Not a rating sheet, just a prompt. This may lead to more and more useful comments. Not sure where to keep it posted, perhaps in the header for each Forum if there is room for it. i.e. Elements to consider in reviewing images - Composition, Use of Light, Sharpness & Detail, Mood, Web Presentation, Visual Impact, etc. I do think it needs to be readily available for it to have any impact. So if hidden under instructions (which are only consulted in extreme cases, especially when it comes to males of our species), it may not be that useful.
I also like the idea of modernizing the look even more than last year's upgrades.
Ed, some very valid and strong points and ideas here. Seems like there are many things to think about and at the same time maybe not a lot for too much change in the end as NPN has worked so well for many years........
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 1, 2017 at 6:22 AM
Ed, some very valid and strong points and ideas here. Seems like there are many things to think about and at the same time maybe not a lot for too much change in the end as NPN has worked so well for many years........
Though conversations like this one always seem to end in impasse, IMO they are still good to have. As we have usually done in the past, changes are incremental based on the input we receive.
@ Keith - I like your mock-up! Updating the upload-photo screen is relatively easy to do and does not represent a change in policy or site function. We'll start with that...
Though conversations like this one always seem to end in impasse, IMO they are still good to have. As we have usually done in the past, changes are incremental based on the input we receive.
Totally agreed, Jm. Good luck with decisions and plans for the fine tuning.
Posted by Igor Doncov on February 1, 2017 at 5:35 PM
Though conversations like this one always seem to end in impasse
Would it be better to try something new and fail than not do anything? You can always back out.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 2, 2017 at 7:35 AM
Would it be better to try something new and fail than not do anything? You can always back out.
Definitely need to keep looking for new ways to make the NPN experience better!
Posted by David Schoen on February 3, 2017 at 12:48 AM
With respect to the 5:1 comment to posting ratio I wanted to add some feedback. NPN s all about learning. And I think everyone is different about their ability to take and give criticism. A new photographer can be overwhelmed by some of the feedback and may not feel comfortable providing a critique to someone who has far more experience. I know that was my concern when I first joined. I did a lot of posting but felt inadequate to provide a meaningful critique. I stopped posting on NPN and basically quit nature photography for 2 years until I believed I was ready to say something meaningful. I am still catching up and try to do 10:1 most of the time. I still have a long way to go to get to 5:1 overall.
A rating system would not be a good thing. There are plenty of sites with rating systems if one chooses. Some of the negative attributes of a rating system include "buddy rating", back stabbing ratings to other images to improve ones own images, etc. There is too much potential for abuse.
If one really wishes to judge an image on its own merit, I would suggest having a new category without the photographers name listed. The names would be revealed after the WP announcement. This could be done as a separate category or as an option in the current galleries. It would certainly add a new dimension to comments and possibly allow for a more honest evaluation.
Extra points for guessing the photographer.
I would like to see a link to each set of images in each category for the WP announcement in the general forum. So if I look at the avian winner for a particular week, I can click on a link to see all the avian images considered for that week.
If one really wishes to judge an image on its own merit, I would suggest having a new category without the photographers name listed. The names would be revealed after the WP announcement.
Hi David, this idea was in place for a couple years as I recall, however, the image count was most times less then 1 or 2 a week at best. And, on top of that the new or other photographers posting in the "Anonymous Gallery" as it was called, received less comments then if they had posted in the subject content related galleries. Eventually it was dropped for overall lack of support on all fronts.
Posted by David Schoen on February 3, 2017 at 10:54 AM
What about using an alias in the regular gallery?
Posted by David Schoen on February 3, 2017 at 10:55 AM
What about using an alias in the regular gallery? This would be a changeable option to hide identity.
Posted by Keith Bauer on February 3, 2017 at 1:03 PM
I was never a fan of the anonymous gallery, nor would I be in favor of using an alias. I am a firm believer that one of the best ways to grow in photography is to put your images out there, ask for feedback and realize that if you are asking for feedback you should expect to get honest feedback. Some of the feedback will probably not feel great. When I judge for events, one of the first things I start my presentations with is..... I'm here to critique your photographs, I'm not here to critique you. Please separate the two entities.
Some people are able to do that, others are not. Those that learn to accept honest critiques of their images grow faster than those that take the feedback personally. It doesn't mean you need or should agree with all the feedback, but feedback is a gift. People should digest the feedback and keep what they want.
I am a firm believer that one of the best ways to grow in photography is to put your images out there, ask for feedback and realize that if you are asking for feedback you should expect to get honest feedback. Some of the feedback will probably not feel great.
I agree with Keith, especially here at NPN. In the past there were a few "snipers" who at times made negative comments in retaliation or worse yet to boaster their own images. That, thankfully, I've not seen take place here in many years now. Most all here take time for thoughtful & constructive input.
Posted by David Schoen on February 3, 2017 at 1:20 PM
In a perfect world, I would agree with you but I think there are NPN members who will not comment on photos or view photos because of the photographer. Just look at the number of views each photographer receives. One cannot always evaluate the subtleties of an image from a thumbnail. And sometimes the larger image, due to a variety of factors, is vastly superior to the regular image. I am aware you cannot dictate member behavior, but one might be able to improve visibility of an image if the photographer had some anonymity. With anonymity, the feedback can be brutally honest. And that means positive or negative.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 4, 2017 at 7:57 AM
Just a thought off the top of my head...
We could eliminate all the info under the thumbnails, but leave it all on the comments screen (as is). This way the photographer would be "anonymous" until the comments screen is opened. Only the title would appear under the thumbnail, along with the Edit/Flag/Delete links visible to the OP. Note - the Lightbox slideshow feature on the thumbnail screen does not list the photographer, so there would also be the ability to view the intermediate size photos without revealing the photographer.
We could eliminate all the info under the thumbnails, but leave it all on the comments screen (as is). This way the photographer would be "anonymous" until the comments screen is opened. Only the title would appear under the thumbnail, along with the Edit/Flag/Delete links visible to the OP. Note - the Lightbox slideshow feature on the thumbnail screen does not list the photographer, so there would also be the ability to view the intermediate size photos without revealing the photographer.
Jim, that idea might work overall. After reading your idea I thought maybe another approach for those who wanted the anonymous idea to return would be to just place a checkbox in the posting process to merely show name or not. The default would be to show name automatically. That would leave the current configuration of the gallery view as it is now.
Whatever the thoughts for change that have collected in this thread, maybe a new thread to poll the thoughts in the end on your ideas for changes. It seems maybe this thread has lost the crowd a bit.
Posted by Keith Bauer on February 4, 2017 at 10:51 AM
We could eliminate all the info under the thumbnails, but leave it all on the comments screen (as is). This way the photographer would be "anonymous" until the comments screen is opened. Only the title would appear under the thumbnail, along with the Edit/Flag/Delete links visible to the OP. Note - the Lightbox slideshow feature on the thumbnail screen does not list the photographer, so there would also be the ability to view the intermediate size photos without revealing the photographer.
I very well may be in the minority here, but I think we're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. This purpose of our photo critique galleries is to post photos for image critique.... Sounds redundant already....
The arguments presented are along the lines of "just look at the number of views each photographer receives". I can't prove it, but I think there is a very strong correlation between that number and the way that person participates. Those who just post images and never participate in any other part of this site receive less input, less views, and less value from their membership.
This proposal says lets not show the photographer's info, in hopes that people will open the image, then comment. So the effort is make sure you don't know who the maker of the image is until you're ready to comment? Really? You may end up increasing the number of views, but you won't end up increasing the number of comments. I think this all comes back to people's willingness to provide and accept honest critiques. At the extreme end of this scale on the web is Facebook and 500PX. Every shot is "Wow, what a beauty". I remember commenting to one former NPN member who complained about getting feedback that his/her images were not even close to sharp and the response was that I had no idea what I was talking about because his/her Facebook friends thought the image was fabulous. That person left because all they wanted to hear was "Great Shot". Anonymous or not, hidden names until the comment box appears or not, the feedback would be exactly the same.
I'd much rather see energy put into modernization of the site than worrying about how to conceal the identities of the very people who are here to share / learn and participate.
While eliminating the info under the thumbnail images would clean up the critique galleries pages, I find myself in agreement with Keith...
I'd much rather see energy put into modernization of the site than worrying about how to conceal the identities of the very people who are here to share / learn and participate.
I also agree with Paul, where he says:
Whatever the thoughts for change that have collected in this thread, maybe a new thread to poll the thoughts in the end on your ideas for changes. It seems maybe this thread has lost the crowd a bit.
A listing distilled from this thread of those site changes that would be of the greatest benefit would be helpful.
--P
Posted by Steve Kennedy on February 4, 2017 at 12:03 PM
I also agree with Keith - I don't believe making the thumbnails anonymous will increase the number of comments.
And I think everyone is different about their ability to take and give criticism. A new photographer can be overwhelmed by some of the feedback and may not feel comfortable providing a critique to someone who has far more experience.
I think David has a good point here. It can be very intimidating for a new photographer to comment. "Why would they care what I think" probably goes through their heads every time they try to decide what to say.
Another thought about anonymity, and this is off the cuff, how about making the comments anonymous? Or an option to make them anonymous?
Posted by Steve Kennedy on February 4, 2017 at 12:47 PM
OK, now that I think about it, I don't care for the idea of making the monnets anonymous either.
One previous suggestion I do like, is likely to increase comments from new photographers, is to have topic prompts on the top (header) of the comment box. I'm copying from Jim's list near the top, but something like "Suggested comment topics: composition, use of light, sharpness and detail, mood, web presentation (post shutter processing), visual impact, point of focus, point of view, depth of field, etc. This could give people ideas or help focus their thoughts about the photo.
Posted by Keith Bauer on February 4, 2017 at 1:19 PM
I saw Steve's original thought about making the comments anonymous, then a subsequent rethinking of that.
I don't care for the idea of anonymous comments either. I want my comments to be "signed" by me. I fear anonymous comments could lead to all kinds of unwanted consequences.
I don't care for the idea of anonymous comments either. I want my comments to be "signed" by me. I fear anonymous comments could lead to all kinds of unwanted consequences.
Exactly, Keith. I think we have all seen forums where comments can be posted anonymously, or by posters using an alias, where the comments degenerated into flame wars. Aside from the stress created by such things, the moderator's job is made much more difficult.
NPN has always used 'real names', which suggests friendliness and openness. I think it is an excellent policy that should not be abandoned.
--P
Another thought about anonymity, and this is off the cuff, how about making the comments anonymous? Or an option to make them anonymous?
Hi Steve, I'm with Keith and Preston here. I think this would lead to the "snipping" I brought up that happened off and on in the very early days. That has not been an issue for years. To make the point, there were some folks who either made blunt remarks in retaliation or worse yet in attempt to make their own work some how appear better. Posting an image anonymously is one thing, commenting anonymously is another.
Posted by Genny K. on February 4, 2017 at 11:26 PM
I do not like the idea of anonymous commenting. As Preston said, NPN has always used real names. I have been on here a loooong time, and I think everyone here is incredibly helpful to anyone who really wants help.
I guess I am still wondering what is harder for a newbie to do: to post an image, or to comment on an image? For me, it is MUCH harder to post an image. That is putting part of me out there on display. I agonize over posting images. But you can make a comment be fairly middle-of-the-road and just leaning a bit one way. Frankly, I do not understand why making a comment would be so difficult. Several people have commented that it was difficult for them to comment because they didn't feel they had anything to contribute, but they did feel comfortable posting images. Wow, that is so different from my feelings.
Igor said the following, and I totally agree with him:
The thing about this participatory website is that it's a give and take thing. When you comment you give. And when getting some comments on your image, you take. If you only post images and don't comment you're just taking. When the givers see a user who never comments in their images they stop giving.
I don't mind someone showing off their stuff but if they expect thoughtful analysis they better provide it as well. If they want to post without receiving comments I'm fine with that. They're not really serious about their hobby/profession and that's fine.
That said, I am now confused. Just exactly what is the problem we are trying to fix?
Even though I've read every comment in this thread, I'm not able to comment on everything in the thread, and I might comment on something that's already been decided, but here goes anyway:
1. I don't like the idea or see the need for a Follow feature. I think that of all things that might hinder commenting, that would hinder commenting really a lot. People only have a finite amount of time to spend on NPN.
2. I would really, really, really hate to see any kind of star or rating system. Talk about discouraging, that would be SO discouraging.
3. I wouldn't say that I agonize over posting images, but when I post I do so knowing that I'm going to receive both negative and positive feedback. But that's the very reason I post.
4. Not commenting because people don't think they know enough about the jargon just means that people need to learn the jargon from other commenters (when I first started here I didn't even know what OOF means).
5. Not commenting because people are too new to photography, you all have always said that evaluating another image is one of the best ways to learn. I think that was true then and is true now. We right now have a couple of people (or more) that are trying to learn photography. They have kept on posting even though they still need to learn the basics. I think if they looked at other images to see how other images look compared to theirs it could make a big difference. While they're there, they could say the image is very sharp, for instance, because they will see that even if they don't see anything else yet.
6. Last but not least, for now, I may be the only one, but I think that the WP, the Gallery of the Month and the Annual Picks (or whatever it's called) are not necessary and probably don't actually result in an increase in enthusiasm or promotion of NPN. I'd like to see them all discontinued. (If they are encouraging to one person, how many others are they not encouraging to?) In my opinion here at NPN we are competing with ourselves, no one else. Improving that is what we get from NPN.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 5, 2017 at 8:07 AM
Last but not least, for now, I may be the only one, but I think that the WP, the Gallery of the Month and the Annual Picks (or whatever it's called) are not necessary and probably don't actually result in an increase in enthusiasm or promotion of NPN. I'd like to see them all discontinued. (If they are encouraging to one person, how many others are they not encouraging to?) In my opinion here at NPN we are competing with ourselves, no one else. Improving that is what we get from NPN.
Barbara, interesting take - one that I don't necessarily disagree with. That said, I do feel that NPN needs to avoid becoming completely "static" where there isn't some community-based activity.
Should all formal competition/recognition be refrained from? Interested in hearing everyone's take on that...
Should all formal competition/recognition be refrained from?
Jim, I guess I would strike through the word "competition", but would keep the word "recognition" in the sentence for sure. I feel that part of those displays or WP/EP showcases highlight some of the best work ever posted on NPN. With that said, anyone wishing to see some of the more technically refined images across the breadth of all galleries can review those on a week to week basis. I'm sure the selections every week are also a tremendous time consuming pain. However, I would like to see that process remain if it is still a choice for most here.
As always, I'm here for the milk and cookies mostly anyway......
Should all formal competition/recognition be refrained from?
In my opinion, the Annual Editor's Pick Awards are both recognition, and a competition. "Competition" comes into play because actual prizes are awarded, and by the very nature of the EPA's, they recognize excellence. Whether or not the EPA's are a competition or simply recognition, they have a valuable place at NPN.
The EPA's are readily available on the NPN home page, which is viewable by the public. Therefore, they serve as not only an inspiration to those who love nature photography, but also to potential new members.
In regard to the Gallery of the Month, and the Weekly Picks, these serve as recognition of excellence on an ongoing basis, which I believe strengthens the sense of community and friendship that sets NPN apart from other photo sites.
Given the foregoing; the EPA's, Gallery of the Month, and the Weekly Picks should be retained. They are as much a part of NPN as are the galleries and forums.
--P
Posted by Keith Bauer on February 5, 2017 at 3:41 PM
Should all formal competition/recognition be refrained from?
I believe we should keep all of the existing recognition pieces that we have in place. I know it feels good to have images recognized by other photographers as quality images. It's important to have goals and each of us, no matter where we are in our respective photographic journeys should aspire to continue to improve our craft. For some, it is clearly more of a drive than others and that is fine as long as the individual is comfortable with it.
There was a comment about it being encouraging to some, and discouraging to others. I'd sure hope that it does not discourage people to see other images that are superior. Yes, picking them every week is a subjective process. It is, and will always be subjective. People should take the opportunity to study the images that are recognized and learn from them, not be discouraged by them.
I support keeping the existing system(s) in place.
Posted by Igor Doncov on February 6, 2017 at 12:04 PM
I believe that NPN's greatest value to it's member is personal improvement in photography. I believe that's why most members join NPN and when this is no longer happening then it's why most members leave NPN (there is no longer benefit). I believe that NPN could provide more help in this respect than it does, Another words members improve slower than they could.
The review process has been set up with an image displayed and comments are offered on the final product. What if a set of images were displayed and comments were provided on the 'process' rather than the final 'result'. The idea would be that you would provide the raw image and as many intermediate steps as you liked, each explaining what was done, leading to the final step. At the very least a show of the raw and the final result. Personally I think people would like to see the result of a 'triple play' or a merge of several raw images.
This is an idea I expressed 2+ years ago in a different manner. I think it could be done right now without any code change. Being able to load multiple images in a single comment would help I suppose or you could enter a bunch of comments.
Would there be any interest on having such reviews? If yes, should they be part of the main galleries or separate?
Posted by Barbara Graham on February 8, 2017 at 12:25 PM
Can someone post links to images that most clearly illustrate the problem so I can show DtP?
Jim, I don't think I have a problem with color, but I definitely have a problem with lighting between the larger and smaller versions. Here is the latest example.
Posted by Keith Bauer on February 9, 2017 at 9:48 AM
Jim, I don't think I have a problem with color, but I definitely have a problem with lighting between the larger and smaller versions. Here is the latest example.
Barbara: I've studied this image over and over, put the larger version next to the smaller version in two separate windows, and I can't see a difference in the two. What are you referring to with "a problem with lighting"?
Posted by Barbara Graham on February 9, 2017 at 10:30 AM
Barbara: I've studied this image over and over, put the larger version next to the smaller version in two separate windows, and I can't see a difference in the two. What are you referring to with "a problem with lighting"?
When I look at the smaller one it looks to me to be more dull, and when I look at the larger one it looks like it did when I posted it, a a little brighter. But if you don't see the difference then it must just be me.
Jim has given me the 'go-ahead' to collate the suggestions made in this thread. Once that is done, I will send the results to Jim and also post the results in a new thread.
If you have a new suggestion, or a yea or nay for any that have already been made, please post here, soon. Thanks!
Since there are 100 replies to sift through, collating will take some time. Stay tuned!
--P
Discussion
102 repliesAnother new year, another round of contemplated tweaks & updates for the NPN website. As always, we want your thoughts and feedback so we can plan and budget accordingly!
Here are two we are considering;
New Follow Feature
This new feature would allow all (members and non-members) to select NPN photographers they would like to follow and place all of their photos in their own Follow Gallery (just like Flagged photos). A link would be provided to Follow/Unfollow on the photo display screen (where comments are posted) and a “Followed Photogs” link would be placed in the main Galleries drop-down menu to access the Followed Gallery. Of course, a direct link from a browser favorites menu could be used to directly access the NPN Followed Gallery as well.
With this feature, a viewer would have immediate/direct access to all photos posted by their Followed NPN photogs. Unlike Facebook, our photo presentation would include use of the Lightbox Slideshow feature on the Followed Gallery thumbnails screen and the ability to view all photos in their 1600 pixel/1 MB hi-res glory!
Update Regional Forums
The original premise of the RFs was for members from nearby areas to have discussion and post photos specific to their region. With a couple of notable exceptions, the RFs were never a huge hit and since so many now post such photos on Facebook, the NPN Regional Forums are forgotten and unused.
In this proposal, we would “repurpose” the RFs to become general informational resources for the regions served. We would encourage all members to post the following in the appropriate RF;
· Photos taken in the area, including the specifics of where the photo was taken
· Services offered in the area such as lodging, car rental, restaurants, etc.
· Any information that might be useful for a photographer planning on visiting the region
· NPN members would be allowed to post their photo tours
As part of this, the RF graphics would be removed from header section and replaced with simple text describing the area covered. All existing posts in each RF would remain.
If anyone has any other suggestions for site updates, please feel free to post them in this thread!
1. The Follow feature could be nice to use, though I do find people's galleries quite easily on the site as is, so I don't have especially strong feelings about it.
2. Reworking the Regional Forums along the lines you suggest sounds well worth a try.
3. There was a suggestion a year or more ago about possibly integrating the Portfolios with the Galleries - has that died a death, as being too tricky ?
4. There were also to be further Slide Shows - have they now gone or are you still awaiting contributions ?
I found the thread about Photo Portfolios, Here.
Here is a quote from that thread by Jim about integrating PPN with NPN, and a "Plan B" for PPN: I certainly support "Plan B", and would like to see it happen, along with the "Follow Feature".
--P
I wonder how many feel PhotoPortfolios still has value to them?
Max
2. Currently you can add one hyperlink per comment. Would like to increase that limit to have many more.
3. Would like the comment page to have a star rating for the image which people could rate with or without leaving a comment. These would be averaged and the average displayed along with the number voted. This would be like the Yelp online review for any dentist or physician you read online. This may help with participation for those who don't want to take time to leave a comment? However it could backfire and result in fewer comments?
Preston's Website
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NPN Home Page Ratings and "Like" buttons have been discussed here on several occasions, Igor. Most were not in favor of the idea for the reason you state in the last sentence of your paragraph. Additionally, aggregate ratings would make NPN a "competition", and personally, I would not support ratings or aggregates of any kind. Just my 0.02.
--P
A rating is no more a competition at NPN than it is on any online review app (Yelp). It's a way to help a casual viewer to access the most highly valued images directly instead of going through all one at a time. As stated it may actually add viewership.
Heck, you could take this further and add rating as a sort criteria or even do searches based upon it. There are those who would find it valuable.
-p
Can someone post links to images that most clearly illustrate the problem so I can show DtP?
I have thought of a rating system based on multiple attributes of the photo. For example, the ability to rate a photo based on the following;
- composition
- use of light
- sharpness and detail
- mood
- web presentation (post shutter processing)
- visual impact
- ...and whatever else I have not listed here
A score of 1 to 5 would be assigned to each attribute with the average used to display the rating. Additionally, a mandatory text box would be provided for each attribute for comments specific to the attribute, along with a "final thoughts" text box to summarize the critique.In this way, the system could provide detailed, informative feedback to the OP. Along with this I would also set up the system to require five critiques for every photo uploaded for critique.
If we were to do this, we want to avoid at all costs is a "hit and run" rating system that discourages useful critique and does little to help a member advance their photography.
Jim, if I understand this statement is the poster "required" to comment 5 times before their image would appear as we've mentioned in the past?.......or, are you seeing it differently?
I know it is not ideal IMO and many say it is missing the point to just receive a comment of "looks good" in order to meet the requirement. But, on the other hand when does it make sense to have a negative number of comments to the positive number of images being posted by certain individuals. The guidelines have always stated a recommended 5 to 1 ratio. I think that is an acceptable low point, but going negative below a 1:1 ratio, sorry, does not work in my world.
The system I described above - a combination of ratings and commentary by attribute - would help ensure that the critique is useful to the OP.
I hope this clarifies it, if not let me know!
Jim, very clear and totally understood, thank you !
If we decide to do something like this, I'll have to start a GoFundMe campaign to pay for it!
We can (within reasonable limitations) make it anything we want it to be.
As to the star or number grading of images I feel that is impersonal and would eliminate the "family" feel that is an integral part of the website. Most of us get graded this way in our local camera clubs. Suggestions and critiques from photographers we trust are much more important to improving out skills.
In other words, yes I value Photoportfolios.net. Also I strongly disagree that you MUST comment in order to post. Most of us do comment. Third, I don't want to be rated either by stars or number.
Thanks again for your thoughts!
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/ic.cgi?a=vp&pr=240702&CGISESSID=970c0dbede492c8108db8c11a1b12871&u=14396&title_action=
Here are a couple. Pull up the regular image, then the larger. Even better put them side by side in two different windows in your browser:
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/ic.cgi?a=vp&pr=241084&CGISESSID=78d0fbc95d69e262b66723138bb9e844&u=15782&title_action=
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/ic.cgi?a=vp&pr=240867&CGISESSID=78d0fbc95d69e262b66723138bb9e844&u=18404&title_action=
Jim, as in the past I'm sure I'm in the minority with regard to the MUST comment "quota" system, but also fully understand why it's never been a requirement either. To each his own.......
What is it that makes NPN different? I think a big part of it is the honest comments and critique, and not making it a ratings game.
Should the ratio be 5 to 1 on comments to posts? I don't know, but that's a pretty easy number to get to.
- I don't want to see comments turned into a star or rating system of any kind
- I don't want to feel like I'm in a competition with other photographers (what happens with a rating system)
- Although an outline approach to what should be in a comment may be helpful to people new to NPN I think it stifles viewing and commenting
- we've tried recommending a comment to post ratio many times and it doesn't work
I don't use the Regional Forums as currently configured, although over the years I've occasionally looked in them. I feel that these regional forums keep good images from reaching their wider potential audience and possibly hurt the non regional galleries. So, making them into guides for regions could have value.Concerning the color differences between large and small images I see that the three example links provided (Igor, Keith) all lead to images by Sandy Richards. We've discussed her problem in the past in the general forum and with specific images. Basically Sandy uploads a single large image that has been prepared in Adobe RGB and embeds that color profile. My browser (Safari mostly but occasionally Firefox) is color aware and renders the large image as Adobe RGB as Sandy expects it to be seen. But the smaller 720px image derived behind the scenes at NPN strips out the color profile so Safari renders it as sRGB making it less saturated.
Regarding the Portfolio feature, I can't recall the last time I visited my own portfolio. I remember setting it up many years ago, and even collecting stuff that I thought should be reworked as well as new images to add, but it never seemed worth the effort.
I would like to think that given the time most usually join in once they're acclimated to the site and routine as Charlie mentions. Additionally, that they finally do take time during one of their many posts to read the recommended guidelines of 5 to 1 ratio.
However, a quick review on any given week will uncover folks dating back over 5 years now that hold less then a 5 to 1 ratio. So, holding out hope for those types seems a waste.
And yes, we can sure skip commenting on their images as making a point, but that does not seem to work too well at times as their images still become WP's on occasion.........
Maybe a WP for a person who is consistent at commenting is a point to be recognized......
We could certainly require a 5:1 ratio minimum to be eligible for a WP!
@ Rich Ditch: good feedback and info, thanks!
Jim, a good thought and works towards coaxing some of those folks to meeting expectations. I took a very quick review on one gallery just now and my point was true & valid.
To clarify my point throughout it was only based in response to this item listed above and how to best approach that idea. For me it was always simple, put a hook in the system to require that quota.
This has not one thing to do with the outcome of a WP and the amount of comments it would or would not receive. The WP selection(s) I assume are based upon a collective input from the site moderators and management. Making the total comments made on any given image a non-issue and would remain that way. The hook or any other idea to IMPROVE total comments overall has been on review for years in many discussions as I recall and nothing to do with WP's.
The thought of a poster not receiving a WP if they're below the recommended 5:1 ratio was just another idea to move folks toward the goal in sharing with site input and nothing more.
I agree.
There must be a better way to encourage participation.
100% agree. If there are additional constraints put on choosing the pick such as evaluating the comment / post ratio, the place that lands is on the moderators. I'm not interested in doing anything except looking at the quality of the images to make my selections.
I agree with this as well.
As for requiring a ratio of comments to posts, I'm concerned it will cause more people to drop their membership. We've lost so many people already.
I agree with Richard on this. I don't see the value. I love seeing the critical comments on my photos, especially the comments telling me how to improve it. I don't always agree with the comments but I still appreciate them and try to look at my photo from that perspective. A rating system would be too vague to be valuable.
So it looks like the sole remaining item on possible NPN upgrades (not including PhotoPortfolios) is the Follow feature as described in the first post. Does this really excite anyone or is just...meh?
I have always liked the 'free wheeling' way comments on images are written, so the structured comment boxes in Jim's mock-up above do not really work for me.
On the subject of PhotoPortfolios, I like Jim's thought as to priorities for updates. Jim, I appreciate you for really listening to our feedback and suggestions, and your efforts to keep NPN the best image critique site on the Web!
--P
In the thread specific to the use of Photo Portfolios, there are only 10 responses at this point. I don't see that as any endorsement to spend time on it. If people want a web presence sites like Smugmug or Zenfolio provide a FAR more robust option than anything that could be put together in any amount of time. I'd much rather see energy focused on the interface for the bread and butter of NPN and that is the photo critique galleries.
Aren't the Weekly Picks, Gallery of the Month, and year end awards competitions? Should those be eliminated as well?
Totally agree.....
It would sure seem to lean towards that idea as acknowledgment of one's efforts put forth IMO.
I work with an old analog site that has it and I'm amazed at the world wide numbers I see there. It might help bring focus to some thoughts on participation that all can see. Just thinking out loud......
However, I can't point out how often I read quotes virtually everywhere stating that all real growth occurs with failure. And that's in all walks of life. Someone who gets a single star has a much greater motivation to change than someone who gets nothing but accolades. There's 2 sides to the coin, a chance to grow or take it as an insult. I prefer to see it as helpful. I would not have categories of rating. Just 5 stars
PS. Logistically speaking, commentator of the month would be nightmarish to accomplish. The moderator would have to read a week's worth of comments. Ay Caramba!
Igor, while there is a low level of competition here at NPN, it is friendly, and I would like for it to remain this way. The Gallery of the Month, Weekly Picks, and the annual Editor's Pick Awards not only recognize excellence, they are inspirational, and also serve as marketing for NPN.
While failure can lead to growth, acknowledging failure in a public venue such as NPN may be hurtful, and cause a struggling photographer to simply give up and leave. Accolades serve to inspire not only the recipient but also others who view the comments. In light of these two concepts, a written critique that contains suggestions for improvement and accolades Is a good thing, and has been the backbone of NPN since its beginning. 'Like' buttons, 'stars', or a numerical rating system would not enhance NPN, in my opinion.
--P
Agreed Igor, the word "punishing" might a bit harsh, but at the same time I do not see the word "rewarding" those same folks who do not carry a 5:1 ratio being used in the same sentence either.
For the thought that we do not want to set TOO many restrictions on the lack of not commenting as possibly losing those participants from posting their images, I truly wonder how many folks we lost over time who really participated with 5:1+ ratios and left because they felt those others only posted to receive the rewards from the site. Again, if the site is based upon the teaching & learning experience would it not be beneficial for all to help across the board? Basically stated that the site was not intended to be just show & tell.
People have left NPN for a lot of reasons, not just for a lack of comments. We need to figure out the best way to include the newcomers and to get them to stay and to participate. There are a lot of very good photographers that used to post on NPN, but have moved away and still post daily on other sites. They don't get any more or less comments "over there" than they did here. I think that we need to figure out why they've left and what could have been done differently here to prevent that. For now, I'll put up with uncle Bob until we come up with the answer to that question.
Hey Charlie, maybe we might need an Uncle Bob Gallery.......
I don't mind someone showing off their stuff but if they expect thoughtful analysis they better provide it as well. If they want to post without receiving comments I'm fine with that. They're not really serious about their hobby/profession and that's fine.
I'd still like to see the overall look and feel of the NPN site modernized. I know we've had discussions on this in the past. The behaviors of some other nature photography sites is more pleasing to me (I know it is a personal preference as to what is pleasing).
I believe the look and feel of a site is important. Some improvements were made last year and I'm thankful for those. I believe we need to continue to invest in modernization.
I'm also not fond of the dialog box for posting an image. The UI to do so needs to be easier to discern where to post the larger version and where the smaller version goes. You have to read carefully (and I'm not exactly new to this site) to see which is which so I have empathy for newer members trying to figure it out.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Charlie, thank you very much for taking the review. It aids my point I made a day or two back. Early on in this thread I had double checked my own perception on the matter and told Jim I had verified my point with a very quick look at only one page in one gallery. For me it was no surprise as I knew from history the shortfall posters.
Sadly, this subject has been raised numerous times over the years with no cohesive and amiable answer on how to rectify the issue. I said years ago the only way I could see a resolution was to place a hook in the system that forced the 5:1 ratio. However, many came to defending the point and said it was not needed. So, are we at another impasse at this time? Hard to say.
The item about not "rewarding" as it were with WP's was merely an option to maybe soften the blow instead of the mandatory hook of 5:1. Basically, if they kept posting and not commenting they would not know why or why they did not receive WP's either. Many I suspect never read the Forums either.
Anyway, tomorrow is a new day.........
As far as the photo upload UI, anyone want to take a shot at mocking one up?
I have several images in my gallery that were marked for deletion long ago, and they still reside there.
Would it be possible to have such deletions occur immediately, or within a reasonable period of time?
--P
Sometimes I either forget to check the box to keep it beyond 45 days or I change my mind and decide it was worth keeping in the gallery. The only way to get the image into the gallery is to resubmit it to the landscape gallery and tell viewers to that it's not necessary to comment on it. Should we come up with a method of directly uploading to our galleries?
Good point, Igor, Maybe the galleries could be setup to work more flexibly and possibly replace the separate portfolio as it seems the galleries are usually a lot more real time active.
That said, I wonder if the prompt list of characteristics to look for that Jim has provided would be good to give people an idea of what to comment about. Not a rating sheet, just a prompt. This may lead to more and more useful comments. Not sure where to keep it posted, perhaps in the header for each Forum if there is room for it. i.e. Elements to consider in reviewing images - Composition, Use of Light, Sharpness & Detail, Mood, Web Presentation, Visual Impact, etc. I do think it needs to be readily available for it to have any impact. So if hidden under instructions (which are only consulted in extreme cases, especially when it comes to males of our species), it may not be that useful.
I also like the idea of modernizing the look even more than last year's upgrades.
Jim, thank you for allowing us to comment on these issues.
Ed, some very valid and strong points and ideas here. Seems like there are many things to think about and at the same time maybe not a lot for too much change in the end as NPN has worked so well for many years........
Though conversations like this one always seem to end in impasse, IMO they are still good to have. As we have usually done in the past, changes are incremental based on the input we receive.
@ Keith - I like your mock-up! Updating the upload-photo screen is relatively easy to do and does not represent a change in policy or site function. We'll start with that...
Totally agreed, Jm. Good luck with decisions and plans for the fine tuning.
Would it be better to try something new and fail than not do anything? You can always back out.
Definitely need to keep looking for new ways to make the NPN experience better!
A rating system would not be a good thing. There are plenty of sites with rating systems if one chooses. Some of the negative attributes of a rating system include "buddy rating", back stabbing ratings to other images to improve ones own images, etc. There is too much potential for abuse.
If one really wishes to judge an image on its own merit, I would suggest having a new category without the photographers name listed. The names would be revealed after the WP announcement. This could be done as a separate category or as an option in the current galleries. It would certainly add a new dimension to comments and possibly allow for a more honest evaluation.
Extra points for guessing the photographer.
I would like to see a link to each set of images in each category for the WP announcement in the general forum. So if I look at the avian winner for a particular week, I can click on a link to see all the avian images considered for that week.
Hi David, this idea was in place for a couple years as I recall, however, the image count was most times less then 1 or 2 a week at best. And, on top of that the new or other photographers posting in the "Anonymous Gallery" as it was called, received less comments then if they had posted in the subject content related galleries. Eventually it was dropped for overall lack of support on all fronts.
Some people are able to do that, others are not. Those that learn to accept honest critiques of their images grow faster than those that take the feedback personally. It doesn't mean you need or should agree with all the feedback, but feedback is a gift. People should digest the feedback and keep what they want.
I agree with Keith, especially here at NPN. In the past there were a few "snipers" who at times made negative comments in retaliation or worse yet to boaster their own images. That, thankfully, I've not seen take place here in many years now. Most all here take time for thoughtful & constructive input.
We could eliminate all the info under the thumbnails, but leave it all on the comments screen (as is). This way the photographer would be "anonymous" until the comments screen is opened. Only the title would appear under the thumbnail, along with the Edit/Flag/Delete links visible to the OP. Note - the Lightbox slideshow feature on the thumbnail screen does not list the photographer, so there would also be the ability to view the intermediate size photos without revealing the photographer.
I'm thinking that might work quite well....
Jim, that idea might work overall. After reading your idea I thought maybe another approach for those who wanted the anonymous idea to return would be to just place a checkbox in the posting process to merely show name or not. The default would be to show name automatically. That would leave the current configuration of the gallery view as it is now.
Whatever the thoughts for change that have collected in this thread, maybe a new thread to poll the thoughts in the end on your ideas for changes. It seems maybe this thread has lost the crowd a bit.
I very well may be in the minority here, but I think we're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. This purpose of our photo critique galleries is to post photos for image critique.... Sounds redundant already....
The arguments presented are along the lines of "just look at the number of views each photographer receives". I can't prove it, but I think there is a very strong correlation between that number and the way that person participates. Those who just post images and never participate in any other part of this site receive less input, less views, and less value from their membership.
This proposal says lets not show the photographer's info, in hopes that people will open the image, then comment. So the effort is make sure you don't know who the maker of the image is until you're ready to comment? Really? You may end up increasing the number of views, but you won't end up increasing the number of comments. I think this all comes back to people's willingness to provide and accept honest critiques. At the extreme end of this scale on the web is Facebook and 500PX. Every shot is "Wow, what a beauty". I remember commenting to one former NPN member who complained about getting feedback that his/her images were not even close to sharp and the response was that I had no idea what I was talking about because his/her Facebook friends thought the image was fabulous. That person left because all they wanted to hear was "Great Shot". Anonymous or not, hidden names until the comment box appears or not, the feedback would be exactly the same.
I'd much rather see energy put into modernization of the site than worrying about how to conceal the identities of the very people who are here to share / learn and participate.
I also agree with Paul, where he says: A listing distilled from this thread of those site changes that would be of the greatest benefit would be helpful.
--P
I think David has a good point here. It can be very intimidating for a new photographer to comment. "Why would they care what I think" probably goes through their heads every time they try to decide what to say.
Another thought about anonymity, and this is off the cuff, how about making the comments anonymous? Or an option to make them anonymous?
One previous suggestion I do like, is likely to increase comments from new photographers, is to have topic prompts on the top (header) of the comment box. I'm copying from Jim's list near the top, but something like "Suggested comment topics: composition, use of light, sharpness and detail, mood, web presentation (post shutter processing), visual impact, point of focus, point of view, depth of field, etc. This could give people ideas or help focus their thoughts about the photo.
I don't care for the idea of anonymous comments either. I want my comments to be "signed" by me. I fear anonymous comments could lead to all kinds of unwanted consequences.
NPN has always used 'real names', which suggests friendliness and openness. I think it is an excellent policy that should not be abandoned.
--P
Hi Steve, I'm with Keith and Preston here. I think this would lead to the "snipping" I brought up that happened off and on in the very early days. That has not been an issue for years. To make the point, there were some folks who either made blunt remarks in retaliation or worse yet in attempt to make their own work some how appear better. Posting an image anonymously is one thing, commenting anonymously is another.
I guess I am still wondering what is harder for a newbie to do: to post an image, or to comment on an image? For me, it is MUCH harder to post an image. That is putting part of me out there on display. I agonize over posting images. But you can make a comment be fairly middle-of-the-road and just leaning a bit one way. Frankly, I do not understand why making a comment would be so difficult. Several people have commented that it was difficult for them to comment because they didn't feel they had anything to contribute, but they did feel comfortable posting images. Wow, that is so different from my feelings.
Igor said the following, and I totally agree with him: That said, I am now confused. Just exactly what is the problem we are trying to fix?
1. I don't like the idea or see the need for a Follow feature. I think that of all things that might hinder commenting, that would hinder commenting really a lot. People only have a finite amount of time to spend on NPN.
2. I would really, really, really hate to see any kind of star or rating system. Talk about discouraging, that would be SO discouraging.
3. I wouldn't say that I agonize over posting images, but when I post I do so knowing that I'm going to receive both negative and positive feedback. But that's the very reason I post.
4. Not commenting because people don't think they know enough about the jargon just means that people need to learn the jargon from other commenters (when I first started here I didn't even know what OOF means).
5. Not commenting because people are too new to photography, you all have always said that evaluating another image is one of the best ways to learn. I think that was true then and is true now. We right now have a couple of people (or more) that are trying to learn photography. They have kept on posting even though they still need to learn the basics. I think if they looked at other images to see how other images look compared to theirs it could make a big difference. While they're there, they could say the image is very sharp, for instance, because they will see that even if they don't see anything else yet.
6. Last but not least, for now, I may be the only one, but I think that the WP, the Gallery of the Month and the Annual Picks (or whatever it's called) are not necessary and probably don't actually result in an increase in enthusiasm or promotion of NPN. I'd like to see them all discontinued. (If they are encouraging to one person, how many others are they not encouraging to?) In my opinion here at NPN we are competing with ourselves, no one else. Improving that is what we get from NPN.
Should all formal competition/recognition be refrained from? Interested in hearing everyone's take on that...
As always, I'm here for the milk and cookies mostly anyway......
The EPA's are readily available on the NPN home page, which is viewable by the public. Therefore, they serve as not only an inspiration to those who love nature photography, but also to potential new members.
In regard to the Gallery of the Month, and the Weekly Picks, these serve as recognition of excellence on an ongoing basis, which I believe strengthens the sense of community and friendship that sets NPN apart from other photo sites.
Given the foregoing; the EPA's, Gallery of the Month, and the Weekly Picks should be retained. They are as much a part of NPN as are the galleries and forums.
--P
I believe we should keep all of the existing recognition pieces that we have in place. I know it feels good to have images recognized by other photographers as quality images. It's important to have goals and each of us, no matter where we are in our respective photographic journeys should aspire to continue to improve our craft. For some, it is clearly more of a drive than others and that is fine as long as the individual is comfortable with it.
There was a comment about it being encouraging to some, and discouraging to others. I'd sure hope that it does not discourage people to see other images that are superior. Yes, picking them every week is a subjective process. It is, and will always be subjective. People should take the opportunity to study the images that are recognized and learn from them, not be discouraged by them.
I support keeping the existing system(s) in place.
The review process has been set up with an image displayed and comments are offered on the final product. What if a set of images were displayed and comments were provided on the 'process' rather than the final 'result'. The idea would be that you would provide the raw image and as many intermediate steps as you liked, each explaining what was done, leading to the final step. At the very least a show of the raw and the final result. Personally I think people would like to see the result of a 'triple play' or a merge of several raw images.
This is an idea I expressed 2+ years ago in a different manner. I think it could be done right now without any code change. Being able to load multiple images in a single comment would help I suppose or you could enter a bunch of comments.
Would there be any interest on having such reviews? If yes, should they be part of the main galleries or separate?
Jim, I don't think I have a problem with color, but I definitely have a problem with lighting between the larger and smaller versions. Here is the latest example.
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/ic.cgi?a=vp&pr=241396&CGISESSID=76f860f25b75a1de666b8eea3f94e4c0&u=27228&title_action=
Barbara: I've studied this image over and over, put the larger version next to the smaller version in two separate windows, and I can't see a difference in the two. What are you referring to with "a problem with lighting"?Jim has given me the 'go-ahead' to collate the suggestions made in this thread. Once that is done, I will send the results to Jim and also post the results in a new thread.
If you have a new suggestion, or a yea or nay for any that have already been made, please post here, soon. Thanks!
Since there are 100 replies to sift through, collating will take some time. Stay tuned!
--P