Site Updates Feedback--Distilled

Hi All,

The job's done. Here are the site update suggestions and votes for various aspects as best as I can deduce. If you have any suggestions that do not appear below, please post them here. I can easily update the data.

Updated: 02/14/2017

NPN Site Updates Suggestions

Suggestion	# Mentions	Yea	Nay
Follow Feature	5	1	4
Update Regional Forums	4	4	--
Remove white space between thumbnails	1	1	--
Have 5 thumbnails instead of 4	1	1	--
Larger text in drop-down menus	1	1	--
Page selection at bottom of page	3	3	--
Improve rendering of 720 px image from 1600px image	4	4	--
More slide shows	1	1	--
Update Photo Portfolios	3	3	2
Star Ratings with or without comments	8	1	7
Ratings Based on multiple attributes (see note 1)	4	2	2
Require 5 critiques for each image posted	8	2	6
Require 5:1ratio minimum for Weekly Picks	7	2	5
Running member and on-line totals in header	1	1	--
Improve look & feel of NPN	5	5	--
Improve the image posting dialog box	3	3	--
Dynamic image sizing with Window size	1	1	--
Improve delete function in personal gallery	1	1	--
Prompt in page header showing elements to critique upon	3	3	--
Create an ‘Anonymous’ gallery, or use an alias	7	1	6
Eliminate all info under the thumbnails	4	1	3
Eliminate formal recognition/competition	4	1	3
Set of images displayed (see note 2)	2	2	--
Opt out of being considered for WP,GOTM, annual EP	1	1	--

 
Note 1:
·       composition
·       use of light
·       sharpness and detail
·       mood
·       web presentation (post shutter processing)
·       visual impact
Note 2:
What if a set of images were displayed and comments were provided on the 'process' rather than the final 'result'. The idea would be that you would provide the raw image and as many intermediate steps as you liked, each explaining what was done, leading to the final step

Thanks to all of you who added your feedback!
--P


 

How can we vote using this chart if we have not joined in on the original post as of yet ?

Good question, Mike. How about this...

Add a comment to this thread and include the 'suggestion(s) you wish to vote on and then add 'Yea' or 'Nay'. For example:

Follow Feature: 'Nay'
Improve rendering of 720 px image from 1600px image: 'Yea'

I will then update the original table with any new votes

Thanks, everyone,
--P
 

I've been following this with great interest for a while.  I must say I whole heartedly agree with Paul's comments commending Preston for his efforts.  Thanks Preston!  (Having said that, I'll let you decipher my comments for yeah's or nay's in the table...) 

In my day job, I'm neck deep in metrics.  Metrics are good and necessary to measure results... HOWEVER, there are unintended consequences and people soon develop behaviors just to meet those metrics.  Any voting, star ratings or requirements to adhere to a 5:1 comment ratio, will only lead to behavior that's unintended.  ie. posting "great shot" just to meet the metric. Or, leading to members not participating at all.  I think it's sufficient to provide multiple communications to new members how important it is to provide feedback.  And really it's a pretty simple formula: The more you participate, provide feedback and comments, the more you will receive in return.  You just can't regulate it, except through self regulation.

As someone who spent many years in a camera club, I was very much in to the competition.  For me, the competition to be better, strive for the "Image of the month," the points, actually drove me to improve.  But let's be honest, the unspoken truth is it's about ego.  I love, and still love here on NPN, the accolades. I want to be good at what I do, photography or otherwise. And anyone who says they don't care to hear how beautiful their image is, well, they're not being honest.  Striving for excellence is an honorable goal, and being recognized for it shouldn't be looked down on.  On the flip side, it is absolutely 100% valid to not participate for the competition and simply wanting to share and learn; simply for the enjoyment of photography and being out in nature.  I expect that is where most folks are at.  that is actually one of the main features of this NPN community - it's the mix of photog's, their experience level, comfort level and expectations.

For improvements, toss my vote in for navigational and image quality improvements.  Portfolios and Regional forums as well.

Nay, on the anonymous stuff.  But I'm on the same page as Igor with his idea, for which I recall being brought up before.  Learning and growing as a tog is key.  I'm here, sure for the accolades and sharing my work, but I'm also sincerely interested in sharing my knowledge and skills with others, as well as learning.  I've learned countless PS tips and tricks here and been exposed to folks like Tony Kuyper, that my processing skills continued to grow from what I've learned here on NPN.  I think Igor is right, this is where the focus can maximize membership benefits.  there was once talk about a mentoring program.  Perhaps that's too far off, but I like his idea of being able to show HOW an image was processed. Show the steps along the way; the thought process of what to adjust, when and how?  How much effort did you spend in creating a final image?  I'm sure many would be surprised that I often have a dozen or more layers in my master psd file.  How do you process your images?  I'd be willing to bet that there is a large number of members who are always looking for ways to improve their images and workflow.
And more than the HOW, it's the WHY did you process the way you did? What did you see, what was your vision, your goal?  do you process to accentuate your vision? Or just process to replicate what you "saw."

Taken a step further... this might not be just for people to show how they processed an image, but also a place where a member could post an image and ask for advice on how best to process it. Imagine the learning when 10 different people responded with their versions (and steps) on how they processed the image.  The OP would most certainly learn some new processing techniques.

Ok, I may have taken some liberties on Igor's "Set of images displayed (see note 2)" but that's where my vote would tally.

thanks for listening.  Always good to have this discussion.  I certainly would love to see the activity rebound here at NPN.

Lon

Modifying the look of the comments page:

1. Eliminate all the white on the sides. Have the neutral grey take up all the space from the banner to bottom of window.
2. Move the navigation arrows to the sides of the images making them large < and >
3. Move the enlarge button to urc or lrc of new grey area.
4. Increase the size of image.

There should be no distractions from the image. The image should dominate the space fully. I believe that the glaring white affects your perception of the colors in the image being displayed.

 

Along with this I would also set up the system to require five critiques for every photo uploaded for critique.

Jim, thank you for opening up the discussion for thoughts around some solid ideas and suggested tweaks to enhance NPN once more.

Although you included the idea to address the subjective 5:1 ratio the consensus seems to be once again to leave as the posters choice. I guess I'd say it's too bad it seems to come up in various forum comments a few times each year with the same impasse. Leaving it as a suggestion in the posting guidelines seems to have little impact and maybe not even be needed. Being removed from the posting guidelines could eliminate the item from being any issue for constant debate. Just a thought. 

 

Preston,

Thanks for all the work summarizing previous comments, that I had missed (other commitments) and only now finished reading and digesting. Here are my USD 0.02.

- I think that any and all efforts should go into modifying the look and functionality of the site. Make it look and act as if it is 2017, not 1997. Although I have no data to support this, I have a suspicion that the low participation is largely a consequence of the antiquated look of the site. I know that in my case the first few times that I came across NPN, around 2013, I thought that it was a “fossil” site, that had seen no activity for perhaps several years. It took me a few visits to realize that there were actual living people in it, and that perhaps it was worth a try. I suspect that this happens to many people, and that perhaps most of those decide never to join. Participation will not increase on the basis of people who are already here. It will only increase if there is a strong and continuous influx of new members, and this is unlikely to happen with the current look of the site. I realize that the practicalities may be daunting, and that what I am suggesting may prove impossible. But I also think that any effort invested in small and rather inconsequential tweaks to the existing site is likely to have no effect on the level of participation, nor in that of satisfaction of those who do participate, nor, most crucially, in the likelihood that NPN will still exist a few years in the future.

- I am strongly AGAINST any sort of competition, recognition, rating, follow etc. etc. This is a general philosophical principle, not specific to NPN. I am a strongly quantitative person, insanely so if you will. As such, I only accept the validity of competition or recognition based on measurable objective quantities, such as time (e.g., a race), distance (long jump?), number of goals (football, of the kind that is played with a spherical ball, the other kind is rugby for sissies), etc. I have never and will never accept the validity of any competition, recognition, star rating, etc. based on subjective opinion. I have been (and, regrettably still have to be) in too many review panels, award committees and the like to know that such recognition is meaningless, as it is based on some combination of personal friendship and/or animosity, favor indebtedness, sycophancy, backbiting and outright jealousy. My experience of this is in the physical sciences. I have seen so many prizes and distinctions given, or denied, sometimes quite explicitly, on such grounds that I am frankly repulsed by the whole idea of competition or recognition based on subjective human opinion. Even if the person or persons making these decisions honestly try to come to unbiased decisions it is likely that most of the time there are subconscious biases. And, even though there is no data to support this, it is likely that the situation is even worse in the arts, as by definition art is a matter of appreciation, emotion and opinion, not measurement. Whether you call it competition, recognition or rating makes no difference, it is a purely subjective opinion that serves no purpose other than, sometimes, perhaps all too often, make the person passing the judgement feel more powerful or important than they know they are.

My professional work is rigorously quantitative. I therefore do photography as a hobby, to exercise the other half of my brain. I do not want to compete or be rated, as I really don’t care about the opinion of those judging the competition (or recognition) or those voting for number of stars. My opinion of my photography is the only one that counts for me. I never participate in any of the competitions of my local photo club, not do I vote in any of them, as I respect the rights of others to feel that their opinion is the only one that counts for them - this is art, not a quantitative science! If a star rating system were to be added to NPN then I would almost certainly leave. Along the same lines, I would like to see a way of opting out of being considered for weekly pick, annual awards, etc. I know that my level of participation would increase if I could simply check a box that meant “I am here to share my images, not to be judged”. This would make me more willing to share images, and to appreciate what others are sharing without having to pass judgement on them or thinking that somebody else is. Who am I to say that they should have done something differently, and that because they did not do it the way I would have the photo is any less important to its creator? If it was the solution to an equation, and the solution was incorrect, then I would have all the right, in fact the duty, to point out the error. For a photo, or any other type of art, I do not. Of course I have my tastes. For instance, I strongly dislike HDR and generally any sort of heavily “photoshopped” image. But if somebody likes to do things that way, it is their right and, precisely because I do not like that style, it is NOT my right to judge them. I like images with strong contrast, dark tones and strong (but not oversaturated) colors  and NOBODY will make me change my style. And I do not want to be judged by somebody who strongly dislikes this way of doing things. It is their right to dislike it, but not to decide whether an image with those characteristics is any less worthy of “recognition” than one that meets their purely subjective aesthetic standards - as subjective as mine. I hope that this clarifies why I think that an “opt out of the competition for recognition race” feature would be a very good thing for the health of NPN.

Finally, I would hate to see a “Follow” feature, and it would be another thing that might make me consider leaving. This sort of thing always leads to a buddy system “I’ll follow you if you follow me, and the one who dies with the most follows wins”. Have I mentioned that I hate competition?

Well that was more than USD 0.02. It is all given in all honesty and with the only intention of helping NPN thrive.

Alberto

 

So Alberto, do you go to museums? Do you looks at the images in the magazines you buy? Those are all there as a result of "competitions" as have been defined here. If everything was up to personal taste you wouldn't need magazine editors. 

The whole idea is nonsense. If grades were a useless idea our educational system wouldn't be based on assigning letter grades to everything we did up through college. Can you envision a school system where only the 3 best papers got a grade and everyone else received nothing. These grades aren't given so that you can lord it over your neighbor. They're given to help you as a student understand that you have weaknesses that need to be addressed. If you chose to ignore them that's your business but schools feel they have an obligation. NPN is, in my opinion at least, a place to be educated. I think people come here primarily to learn. Otherwise why the comments. 

I have no problem with members not wanting their images rated. But I will speak out when those reasons are invalid. The idea that it's done purely to stroke your ego or one image is as good as another, it's all subjective, is really unfair. 

So Alberto, do you go to museums? Do you looks at the images in the magazines you buy? Those are all there as a result of "competitions" as have been defined here. If everything was up to personal taste you wouldn't need magazine editors.

Jorge Luis Borges did not win the Nobel Prize for Literature, John Wheeler did not win the Nobel Prize for Physics (look them up if you don't know who they were). Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize for Literature. 

I rest my case.

Neither did I. 

I rest my case. Lol. 

@Alberto and @Igor;

Let us please keep the discussion on track.

@Lon and @Alberto: I will add your votes to the table at a later time.

Thanks,
--P

Hi All,

I updated the table today, 02/14, to include the votes by Lon and Alberto.

If you would like to vote on any of the suggestions, please do so. Here's how:

Add a comment to this thread and include the 'suggestion(s) you wish to vote on and then add 'Yea' or 'Nay'. For example:

Follow Feature: 'Nay'
Improve rendering of 720 px image from 1600px image: 'Yea'

Thanks to all for your feedback!
--P

If you would like to see all of the comments in Jim's thread "2017 site Updates", click Here.

If you would like to vote in the PhotoPorfolios poll, please click Here.

Thanks all,
--P