A Big Thank You

I would like to say thanks and make a comment. First I am very grateful to everyone that has made comments and especially critiques of my images over the last few years. It has helped me to grow as a photographer. So again thank each and everyone of you for your time. I would also like to thank many of the photographers that commented on my images and are not part of our community any more. They have moved on, some to very successful photo businesses. 

My comment. When I first joined NPN I remember being encouraged to comment on five images every time I posted one. Someone made a comment, I don't remember who, that he/she just commented on the next five image after his/her post regardless of the photographer or the image. That is what I have done. At first I was a bit shy about make comments on images that I felt needed some help to make them better. After all I am not a photographer good enough to make a living(All thought I have been published a few times.) But over the years I found that by making critiques of images that did not appeal to me or   needed some tweaking to make it a better image it helped me to also grow as a photographer because I had to stop and say why does this not appeal to me or why does this element not seem to fit. I am great full to for the encouragement to critique others images as well as the critiques of my images.

What I seem to see happening lately though is many of the photographers, not all, seem to only stop at images they can make good comments on and not stopping at those they could make helpful critiques on images that they are not drawn to. They would also grow as photographers just as it did me. I have never been upset or let down because did not like one of my images or found something that they would change. If I am wrong on my assessment please correct me. Thanks for reading my rambling. 

I guess I'll answer this because I'm one of those people. There are many answers to this question actually. 

1. If the individual never comments then there is little incentive. 
2. If the individual only likes positive comments and gets irritated by suggestions I don't comment. 
3. If the same suggestion (oversaturation) is being repeatedly ignored then it's time to stop commenting. 
4. If the person posts essentially the same image several times in a row then it's less likely to be commented on with each successive time. 
5. If I don't find the image inspiring but I strongly suspect that the user does,then I withhold my opinion. 
6. If the user has reached a plateau where they're clearly comfortable and haven't changed in a long time I won't rock their boat. 
7. If all comments are very positive and I don't quite agree I'll sometimes avoid making a comment. 
8. If it's a moderator who may be evaluating the WP I will never be critical. Just kidding. 

Basically if I know I can't reach the person for any number of reasons then you start to back off. 
 

I appreciate you answer Igor. But I would like to respectfully disagree. Sometimes the comments that you say give you reason for not commenting need to be said. I have had a few, not very many, image that got no comments. I wonder is it that bad, is it that bla, is it totally uninteresting or have I reached a plateau and need some one to let me know that. There is one reason that I will not comment and that is if the person never comments on others images. To me, and I may be wrong, it appears that they want their back scratched but do not want to work for anyone else. 

I also know that my reaction to an image is purely subjective. I have looked at image that had a lot of positive comments but it did not speak to me and I said as much. Every image will not speak to everyone the same way. 

I'm pretty much in agreement with your philosophy on commenting, Richard.  I try to comment on nearly every image in the Galleries, I'm participating in and my policy is simply to catch up on my commenting before I post an image of my own.  If I've been away from a gallery for a long time, I'll usually comment on the last several images posted in that gallery before posting my own image. 

I try not to be too prejudicial against those who don't seem to comment on other's images, but I'll admit to getting impatient and giving their images pretty cursory treatment.

If I'm in a rut or on a plateau, I would certainly appreciate someone knocking me up side the head and getting me moving again, and I suspect anyone seriously interested in developing their photographic skills is the same.  It might hurt a bit at first, but in the long run, I appreciate that kind of feedback.

As another aspect to this issue, I do have difficulty commenting on images where little or no detail of the taking and processing of the image is provided.

Thanks for bringing this subject up again.
 

Some times there are other reasons for not commenting.  For example right now I am having some eye problems, nothing serious, just irritating, which makes me less willing to make many comments.  Sometimes I just don't know what to say, and will pass on making a comment.  Also, there are times the photo just does not interest me enough to take the time to make comments.  I know that is not a good reason, but it happens.  Also, there are some galleries I have little interest in such as photo art.  Mostly because I do not do it.  My processing skills are not that great.  Many times I have received comments with suggestions on what to do and I have no idea how to do it!  Still, when I post a photo get 70+ views and 1 comment, I must wonder why.

I would guess I have made about 3 comments (over 5000) for each photo I have posted.  Some are brief, a few are in more detail.  Again it is a matter of not knowing how a change/adjustment can be done, so there may be a lack of detail in my comments.  I hope to do better, but who knows.

I do appreciate all the comments I have received since joining NPN in 2009 and thank all those who have taken the time to comment on my photographs.  I urge all members to work harder on commenting more frequently and in more detail.

My 2 cents worth.

Hi Richard,

I do not like seeing an image that makes it to the second page without getting any comments.  I find that making critiques on composition are very difficult for me to make, because I'm not sure about what's best for the image.  When I do comment on a composition, it reflects a lot of work to understanding how the elements of the image come together. I have discovered that the landscape photographers have the most critical eye and offer the most constructive critiques. Pop Photos and Man & Fauna never get much in the way of critiques. There seems to be some of the most creative and intriguing images in POP photos--especially in portraits that have been posted. 

I always appreciate good, critical comments and when I post a stinker (not referring to skunk photos), it is nice to know why the image is weak.  Also, subject matter is highly correlated with comments.  Post a perfect image of a house sparrow and it will get ignored, but an ordinary picture of a bald eagle will always get a few comments.  This is where reviewers need to be unbiased towards photo content.  I appreciate all the critiques that my images receive, I have learned a lot about photographic technique through this web site.  Richard--it is good that you brought this up--Comments in a forum can wake up people to get back to work at making NPN useful to photographers interested in nature photography.......................................Jim

 

I would guess I have made about 3 comments (over 5000) for each photo I have posted.

@ John, I was not sure you're aware but in your posts there is a post to comment numbers you can calculate your own ratio from.

 
 

 

I find that making critiques on composition are very difficult for me to make, because I'm not sure about what's best for the image.

@ Jim, I totally agree. Although after many years of critiquing landscape images and having mine reviewed and commented on, making a call on composition is extremely subjective IMVHO. Unless you're there it is difficult to make a hard call on that point at times. I usually make soft suggestions on that point usually around cropping.







 

1. I don't like grand landscape images that you find on postcards sold on racks in hotel lobbies. But it's hard to make a comment like that. Best left unsaid. 
2. I don't like cliche compositions like symmetric lake reflections but telling some "it's too cliche" is out of the question. 
3. I don't like representational images that say nothing beyond what is physically there, nicely arranged it may be. It's difficult to say that especially if it's not understood. 

I don't find technical advice about postptocessing  to be that helpful in improving as a photographer. Those are really small issues imo. Therefore I prefer to comment or not comment on the subject matter. 

Okay, so here's my two cents.   There are a lot of different types of photographers that post here, and how I comment depends on what they seem to be here for.  

There are some newcomers that I like to try to help.  We were all beginners once, and some very good photographers here on NPN helped me out when I was first starting to get serious about photography.   I will continue to help them even if they seem to be making me crazy by not even taking the simplest advice.  For some it takes a while.  Be patient.  They can even get a little testy at times, but I try not to give up too soon.  Also, after posting 100 shots with no comments, I start to lose my enthusiasm for them.

There are some newcomers that have obviously been at it for a long time and are already very good.  Usually they show up, show us their best work from the past ten years in about a three month span, and don't comment much on others photos.  After their greatness has properly been acknowledged, they usually disappear once they run out of photos to show us.  They don't really need advice from me, but I still give a little, or at least a nice comment in the hope that they will stick around.  The more talent here the better.  Hope springs eternal.

There are a very few, very good photographers here that seem to have lost their mojo.  They don't seem to work very hard at taking good shots any longer, don't spend much time in the field, and aren't really looking for advise.  For these folks I have to say that if you want more comments, then work harder to take better photos.  The photo tells the story.  I know that it is hard to get up early, and your knees hurt, and your dog ate your hard drive.  We're here to look at your photos.  Post your best work and you will get more comments because you truly have better photos.  At this point you know what we like to see.  Sometimes what you consider "good enough" isn't really that good.  But if you are showing me that you don't really care, then it is hard for me to care too.

There are also some very good newcomers  that jump right in, work daily at their craft, and are happy to share their knowledge and advice.  You are my favorite.  We need more of you.

The majority here are some very good photographers that have been here for a long time.   I really like to get meaningful comments from these people.  In my last post I had a few things pointed out that could be improved, and I appreciate that someone took the time to point them out to me.    I sometimes think that these good photographers don't need my advice or nitpicks, but in reality it shows that you are taking the time.  So for those people I will try a little harder to give real and meaningful comments, and maybe fewer attaboys.

 

Richard, thank you for starting this thread, and thank all of you for participating.  I post here basically ONLY for the comments, so this is really, really, really important for me.  I really try very hard to remember everything I've been told.  I still seem to often forget at least one thing, but I'm really working hard to remember everything.

I don't think I should mention names, but there are people here who have been and still are a great, great help to me.  I think they know who they are, but I don't know if they realize that I take every word they say to heart. 

The only comments that I have to "shake off" a bit are those that say basically "this image doesn't work for me because" but don't say anything at all positive about the image.  I think the critique guidelines say that we should say something positive also.  So I think if you can say something positive even if you DO want to say the image doesn't work for you because, that would usually be okay.

My comments aren't long, but if I see something to critique I do it.  I know that most people here don't need an explanation of how to fix things (contrary to me sometimes), so maybe that's why I don't expand on my comment (whether it be color cast, maybe try cropping here instead of here, etc.).  But I think all of you appreciate comments, even if they are all good, or why would you be posting (those of you that have been here a long time and haven't left)?

So for those of you that have been commenting on my posts, THANK YOU!  I really, really depend on you, and I really, really appreciate you.  (And I know that's too many reallies.) :)


 

Barbara, you hard work is what shows more than anything else.  Keep it up and you will be surprised at how quickly your photos improve.  You are already finding some very good subjects, and getting them in front of the lens.  

Richard, Igor, Charlie and all the others who have posted on this string,

Many thanks, Richard for starting this stimulating exchange of opinions and perspective.  I have found it fascinating.  While I have not posted in many months, I hope I have the right to weigh in.  Your post has stimulated to begin posting my work.  As an illustration, I post photos on Facebook and my friends comment and it is simply a way of sharing what is going on with me.  As an illustration, though, I went back to my posts 5-6 years ago and am stunned by how bad the images are.  My work has improved immensely, and it is largely the result of the comments you members make.  I have had so many "aha" moments when someone commented about something I could not see, but when suggested was patently obvious.  Who knew it was important to straighten a horizon? 
I formerly only posted on the Avian site, and have found, (back then as I cannot speak for now), significant differences between it, Man and Nature, Landscape and Pop Photos.  More posters in Avian note locations, conditions and settings.  Many in the other sites do not.  I have always gotten more comments in Avian that I have received in Landscape or Man and Nature.  While much of the work in those two sites is stunning, absent seeing the settings and hearing about the conditions and challenges there is less to learn.  I have commented many more times than I have posted, and I hope my comments were helpful, or encouraging.  When I have seen images from newcomers, or repeated poor images from long time members, I am often at a loss about what to say.  Keith Bauer has the gift of helping posters see how they might improve their work.  he has done that many times for me by re-processing one of my images and sending it back to me.  He manages to do that in an encouraging manner and has a depth of knowledge I do not.  Consequently, I sometimes wonder what feedback I can give. 
I have an image of Snow Geese and Sandhill Cranes my wife loves.  I have it framed in my office at home and recently did a gallery in my work office.  I hangs there too.  The image is technically terrible.  Only one of the 8 birds in the shot are in focus and I would feel ashamed if a good photographer were to visit.  But, that photo gets an inordinate of admiring comments from visitors and my wife loves it.  I think art appreciation is visceral and subjective.  I notice a common trend among other photographers that I share.  I often overlook the beauty in a shot because I am so critical of the technical aspects. 
I want each of you to know that I value your feedback.  Even if it is a simulated post card image.  Perhaps we can comment about the timing of the shot and quality of light at that moment.  What does a fledgling get from a comment from a super star? 
In the beginning on the Avian site, I received comments from a member that pierced my heart and really hurt my feelings.  his comments were not mean, but blunt.  While he does not have the gift of gentle feedback, he knows of what he speaks.  I must confess that I sort of disrespected him and flinched when I got a comment.  That was until I went back to 2 year old comments and saw what insightful suggestions he made.  He had given me wonderful feedback and my reaction to it was the problem.  I am so grateful to him for his time, and sharing his knowledge.  The problem was about me, not about him, but it took seasoning to realize it.
I have shot many times with Charlie Van Tassel, and have repeatedly been stung by his sharp needle.  But, I am a better photographer as a result.  He has shared his knowledge as only he can do.  I have often wondered if he actually likes me, but I guess the proof is that he has continued to shoot with me.  If you are looking for the velvet pillow, he is not your guy, although he has a lot to share and his opinions carry a lot of weight.  

Sorry for this meandering post.  To simplify my point, following is what I attempted to say:
1.  Your feedback is important to me.
2.  When I post and get no feedback, I am left to wonder about my image, and have no way of doing something better in the future.
3.  Dozens of you have helped me in ways you cannot imagine.  If only I remembered every lesson and the teacher in that instance.  I do remember Preston asking me to straighten my horizon.  That was a lesson that really helped. 
4.  Keith has been a steady contributor to my growth. 
5.  I don't know if I am any good, but I know I am better than I was.  It is the result of your feedback.
6.  We seldom see an image about which we cannot say something positive, if only about the effort the poster made to take the shot and share it. 
7.  Please don't stop giving each other feedback. 

Oh, c'mon.  "Sharp needle?".  Sheesh.  Patrick, I remember quite clearly that it was you that told me that you wanted to get good real fast, so don't hold back.  "Say anything, I can take it!" you told me.   Welcome back.  I didn't get any nicer though.  I'll try to work on that too.  It's the ex New Yorker in me.... I just don't like to dance around the elephant sometimes. 

Charlie,
you are the best. It may have been a rapier. 

Patrick, it is good to see you around here! I am looking forward to seeing more of your images.

You have succinctly echoed my sentiments. I edited your list slightly in order to reflect my views...

1.  Your feedback is important to me.
2.  When I post and get no feedback, I am left to wonder about my image, and have no way of doing something better in the future.
3.  Dozens of you have helped me in ways you cannot imagine.  If only I remembered every lesson and the teacher in that instance. 
4.  I don't know if I am any good, but I know I am better than I was.  It is the result of your feedback.
5.  We seldom see an image about which we cannot say something positive, if only about the effort the poster made to take the shot and share it. 
6.  Please don't stop giving each other feedback.
--P
 

Seems to me that the "value" of a post depends upon whether the poster seeks to express himself or to learn, or the viewer merely wishes to enjoy images created by others.  I use NPN for all three reasons, sometimes comment when I can suggest a helpful change or merely express thanks with a compliment.  And the images are not the only valuable features of NPN.  The instructional articles and forum discussions and tips are helpful too.

Go NPN!!