First, I know that even if it was eventually decided something like this would work, the timing right now is wrong. Jim and Preston have been working on the proposed changes to NPN for months now. So this is a thought for the future.
You all know that I am at NPN for the critiques and the improvement they bring. I have no problem with receiving or giving critiques. But since NPN is all about critiques and the subject continues to come up from time to time as a problem in one way or another, I think it's something we should not dismiss, whether we agree or disagree.
We have talked about and rightfully dismissed any type of likes or ratings given without critiques and/or anonymously, or anything else that would bring us anywhere near a popularity contest.
Newbies say they don't know the experience NPN members have and what they would be open to as far as critiques, and they are afraid to critique because of that.
What about a SELF-rating system so that other people know where we consider ourselves to be and can critique accordingly, whatever that might mean to any individual persongiving the critique?
One example could be using ratings like these, and we would place ourselves where we think we are. If this was part of our profile we could change it at any time.
Beginner
Amateur 1, 2, 3 or 4 (with 1 being least experience and 4 being most experience)
Pro
These could be represented near our names with a B, A1, A2, A3, A4, or P, for example.
If newbies to photography or to NPN need to, they can restrict their critiques for a time to people who consider themselves B or A1, just as an example. That will allow them to start critiquing right away and, therefore, to learn.
For non-newbies, it will help them to know who IS a beginner or a low-level amateur, for example, so their critiques will come across less as "why would you do this in this image?" and more as "it might help if you...".
Whether you agree or disagree, I hope I have explained this concept well enough that you can understand it, and maybe you can consider it as a different and possible approach that would require only a little space in our profiles and wherever our names are displayed.
Jim and Preston, I don't minimize what it takes to get that extra space. I have a degree in computer science. But if we want to grow in participation again we might consider an approach like this.
This is a suggestion that merits further exploration. Personally, I love "atta boys", but also want real critique, that will raise my photography to a level, where it is ready to sell. So, I do want to make my photos as clean of "flaws and defects", like cloning marks, spots, unnecessary elements, etc. I really do want serious observations, that will help me achieve my goal of "perfection'.
But, others are just starting out and need to be coaxed gradually or they will lose confidence and give up. We can tell who they are by the number of posts...but, perhaps, Barbara's idea is a better approach.
I think this is definitely an idea worth considering. It would help in critiques to know the photographer's experience level, and you can't always tell from the number of posts as some pretty experienced and accomplished photographers join now and then. I'm not sure an amateur/pro differentiation matters much as I've seen plenty of amateurs who were better than most of the pros.
A very interesting idea. Knowing a member's approximate skill level would be helpful.
I do agree with Dennis regarding the distinction between 'Amateur' and 'Pro', so, how about this...
"Beginner"
"Experienced"
These 'skill level' identifiers would be included in a member's signature block by default, with the skill level editable by the member:
Preston Birdwell
Skill Level: Experienced
Other info added by the member. e.g, NPN Member number, Website URL, a quote, etc.
By having the skill level in the signature block, no extra info would need to be added to the thumbnail text box.
I hope others will chime in with their ideas!
Barbara, just a quick note: I am just the GD Moderator, and aside from offering Jim suggestions and minding the store, I have no role in coding the site; that is done by DtP (Dave the Programmer) and Jim.
--P
I agree with Dennis, too, but I think probably Beginner and Experienced need something in between. At this point, even with all that I still don't know, I wouldn't call myself a Beginner but I most definitely wouldn't say I'm Experienced, either.
How about something in between like Intermediate and Advanced Intermediate? For myself I would put Intermediate if we had those four choices. I think four choices would give everyone sufficient options to choose from to feel comfortable. But I'd like, too, to hear other thoughts.
I don't really think this will add value to the real issue which is a lack of participation commenting. Call me a bit harsh, but if people really want to grow in their photography, they need to check their egos at the door, be open to the gift of feedback and learn how to accept it for what it is, a gift. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to like it, but we should all be thankful to receive it.
None of us (experienced, beginner, intermediate, pro, ......) have ever, nor will we ever take the perfect image.
When I judge for our local camera club I stand in front of the group of photographers. That is a different experience than writing a critique in an online forum. My goal is simple. Be honest. I do my best to provide encouragement to every level and I do it exactly the same way, regardless of level. I talk about what I like in the image and what I don't like. Over the last decade doing just that, I've earned a reputation of honesty. Yep, some bruised feelings on images that didn't have much going for them, and some boosted feelings on those that did. Again, experience level has nothing to do with the feedback I provide.
On this topic, I'm doing the same thing.... I'm providing my honest opinion.
I just found this post to be interesting, especially since I just signed up under the free 30 days and definitely plan to stay. I like the idea of knowing about where a photographer is at in the skill level when I read a critique, whether it is of my photo or a photo belonging to someone else. I have been taking photos for years (with DSLR's for about 14 I think, and before that many years with film SLR's). I have grown from reading behind others, looking at other's photos, a few online courses, as well as sites similar to this where I could read other's critiques that could help make a photo even better. So far, from what I have seen, you have the best critique pool of any I have seen. So, you don't need to do too much fixing, I don't think, but I believe if I know that the one giving the critique has far more experience, and his portfolio proves that, I will listen to him/her more readily with that knowledge. With that said, years of experience isn't always the measuring rod, because we all grow at different paces. So, I am not sure how you would decide the level that you are at, but probably most of us know about where we are in our skill level. If we have any professionals, (wildlife photographers for a living), then I would say that they would be at the top, for sure. The rest of us would fit under that, somewhere, but I think you would need more than Beginner and Experienced. I find too, that with critiques, it isn't always that we need the help, we just don't always "see" the problem until another set of eyes points it out to us. Just like proofreading, you are sure that there is no typo till someone else catches it.
I'm with Keith on this. I don't think this would be of benefit. The best way for anyone, beginner to expert, to learn is to look at other's work, think about what they like or don't, and comment on that. Everyone, regardless of their experience, has something to offer by way of critique. If anyone feels afraid to critique because they feel that another photographer is "better" than they are, that's something that individual needs to overcome in order to get the true benefit of this forum.
I understand what Keith and Craig are saying about what individuals need to do to get the true benefit of this forum. But my point is not that. My point is for this forum to get more benefit from individuals, for this forum to get more participation, as is posted about by people from time to time. With all the work that Keith has done and does now as a moderator, as far as NPN goes he can only work with people who belong to NPN and who participate in NPN.
Those of us who DO participate have no problem. We want to get participation from other people, more people, and those people MIGHT have a problem. So in this case my concern is with NPN's level of participation. I think we need to recognize that problems might exist that we ourselves don't have, recognize what those problems might be, and sometimes, if it can be done easily, take steps to make changes there.
With all the work that Keith has done and does now as a moderator, as far as NPN goes he can only work with people who belong to NPN and who participate in NPN.
Hi Barbara: I'm not sure I understand this sentence. I have an online consulting service and I work with people all over the country and have worked with clients as far away as Dubai and only one was an NPN member. Just not clear on your statement.
For those who do participate regularly, it is great, but I would encourage everyone to go look at their own stats. If you are not providing 10 MEANINGFUL comments for every image you post, you should be. I emphasized meaningful because "Great shot", or "I like it" are not helpful. Adding complexity to the system is not something I think will add to the participation level.
For those who do participate regularly, it is great, but I would encourage everyone to go look at their own stats. If you are not providing 10 MEANINGFUL comments for every image you post, you should be. I emphasized meaningful because "Great shot", or "I like it" are not helpful. Adding complexity to the system is not something I think will add to the participation level.
+1
As we once again circle back to the KEY point. Having images scroll along the pages is nice, but without constructive or any input I'm not clear as to what the process is about. But, I suspect this point was brought up in the past........
Hi, Keith. That sentence said "as far as NPN goes," meaning that the sentence only speaks to NPN. I'm aware that you do work all over the world, but I only meant that sentence to speak to people you help here at NPN and to show that my statement is unrelated to anything else that you do.
My own stats are about 4 to 1, because I went a long time in the beginning posting tons of shots to get the feedback, because I literally knew nothing. I was probably an exception, joining NPN as someone who knew nothing about photography. I have already realized that I should catch up to 5 to 1, but 10 to 1 will take a very long time. But I will try.
But if you guys think this isn't necessary or a good thing, then so be it. I think those of us who participate here have a really good thing going. It's just that I see some people come and go pretty quickly, and I was trying to think of a way to maybe keep them here.
Posted by Allen Brooks on June 5, 2017 at 10:52 AM
Hi Barbara,
I would agree with Keith's statement that adding complexity to the system will not increase participation level. Rating oneself is subjective. You don't consider yourself experienced, but you've posted over one thousand photos which to me suggests a great deal of experience and your work confirms this, not only in your photographs, but in post-processing. I also would not recommend that "newbies" limit their initial critiques to beginners or low amateurs. They would be better served studying and critiquing the best photos they see and explaining why they like it, thus reinforcing in themselves what makes a good photo. For myself, I think this approach has been just as helpful as having my own work critiqued.
NPN is a special site that allows us to post our work for constructive feedback, unlike other sites where all you get are "likes", etc. As such, there is a cost to posting and that cost is providing critiques for others. Again, I would agree with Keith that we should aim for 10 comments per post.
It's just that I see some people come and go pretty quickly, and I was trying to think of a way to maybe keep them here.
Barbara, for the most part the CP ratio is a point of contention depending upon a persons own thoughts one way or another, or maybe not even at all for some folks.
Your point of participation goes a very long way. I've seen folks who were long time NPN strong participants but were not maybe real strong on posting or commenting. They remained active in the forums and such. An example was a person who posted travel items in a regional forum for years with lots of solid ideas, locations, and other input, but he very seldom posted images for review.
On the contrary are those just posting in galleries and then waiting for others to give them atta boys seems to be lacking in my book.
Again, the guidelines of 5-1 does not seem totally out of reach IMVHO. Although, over time 10-1 could be a long term goal too.
Discussion
15 repliesYou all know that I am at NPN for the critiques and the improvement they bring. I have no problem with receiving or giving critiques. But since NPN is all about critiques and the subject continues to come up from time to time as a problem in one way or another, I think it's something we should not dismiss, whether we agree or disagree.
We have talked about and rightfully dismissed any type of likes or ratings given without critiques and/or anonymously, or anything else that would bring us anywhere near a popularity contest.
Newbies say they don't know the experience NPN members have and what they would be open to as far as critiques, and they are afraid to critique because of that.
What about a SELF-rating system so that other people know where we consider ourselves to be and can critique accordingly, whatever that might mean to any individual person giving the critique?
One example could be using ratings like these, and we would place ourselves where we think we are. If this was part of our profile we could change it at any time.
Beginner
Amateur 1, 2, 3 or 4 (with 1 being least experience and 4 being most experience)
Pro
These could be represented near our names with a B, A1, A2, A3, A4, or P, for example.
If newbies to photography or to NPN need to, they can restrict their critiques for a time to people who consider themselves B or A1, just as an example. That will allow them to start critiquing right away and, therefore, to learn.
For non-newbies, it will help them to know who IS a beginner or a low-level amateur, for example, so their critiques will come across less as "why would you do this in this image?" and more as "it might help if you...".
Whether you agree or disagree, I hope I have explained this concept well enough that you can understand it, and maybe you can consider it as a different and possible approach that would require only a little space in our profiles and wherever our names are displayed.
Jim and Preston, I don't minimize what it takes to get that extra space. I have a degree in computer science. But if we want to grow in participation again we might consider an approach like this.
But, others are just starting out and need to be coaxed gradually or they will lose confidence and give up. We can tell who they are by the number of posts...but, perhaps, Barbara's idea is a better approach.
Definitely, something to consider....,
A very interesting idea. Knowing a member's approximate skill level would be helpful.
I do agree with Dennis regarding the distinction between 'Amateur' and 'Pro', so, how about this...
"Beginner"
"Experienced"
These 'skill level' identifiers would be included in a member's signature block by default, with the skill level editable by the member:
Preston Birdwell
Skill Level: Experienced
Other info added by the member. e.g, NPN Member number, Website URL, a quote, etc.
By having the skill level in the signature block, no extra info would need to be added to the thumbnail text box.
I hope others will chime in with their ideas!
Barbara, just a quick note: I am just the GD Moderator, and aside from offering Jim suggestions and minding the store, I have no role in coding the site; that is done by DtP (Dave the Programmer) and Jim.
--P
I agree with Dennis, too, but I think probably Beginner and Experienced need something in between. At this point, even with all that I still don't know, I wouldn't call myself a Beginner but I most definitely wouldn't say I'm Experienced, either.
How about something in between like Intermediate and Advanced Intermediate? For myself I would put Intermediate if we had those four choices. I think four choices would give everyone sufficient options to choose from to feel comfortable. But I'd like, too, to hear other thoughts.
Thank you again!
None of us (experienced, beginner, intermediate, pro, ......) have ever, nor will we ever take the perfect image.
When I judge for our local camera club I stand in front of the group of photographers. That is a different experience than writing a critique in an online forum. My goal is simple. Be honest. I do my best to provide encouragement to every level and I do it exactly the same way, regardless of level. I talk about what I like in the image and what I don't like. Over the last decade doing just that, I've earned a reputation of honesty. Yep, some bruised feelings on images that didn't have much going for them, and some boosted feelings on those that did. Again, experience level has nothing to do with the feedback I provide.
On this topic, I'm doing the same thing.... I'm providing my honest opinion.
Thank you, Barbara, for this suggestion.
Those of us who DO participate have no problem. We want to get participation from other people, more people, and those people MIGHT have a problem. So in this case my concern is with NPN's level of participation. I think we need to recognize that problems might exist that we ourselves don't have, recognize what those problems might be, and sometimes, if it can be done easily, take steps to make changes there.
Hi Barbara: I'm not sure I understand this sentence. I have an online consulting service and I work with people all over the country and have worked with clients as far away as Dubai and only one was an NPN member. Just not clear on your statement.
For those who do participate regularly, it is great, but I would encourage everyone to go look at their own stats. If you are not providing 10 MEANINGFUL comments for every image you post, you should be. I emphasized meaningful because "Great shot", or "I like it" are not helpful. Adding complexity to the system is not something I think will add to the participation level.
+1
As we once again circle back to the KEY point. Having images scroll along the pages is nice, but without constructive or any input I'm not clear as to what the process is about. But, I suspect this point was brought up in the past........
But if you guys think this isn't necessary or a good thing, then so be it. I think those of us who participate here have a really good thing going. It's just that I see some people come and go pretty quickly, and I was trying to think of a way to maybe keep them here.
I would agree with Keith's statement that adding complexity to the system will not increase participation level. Rating oneself is subjective. You don't consider yourself experienced, but you've posted over one thousand photos which to me suggests a great deal of experience and your work confirms this, not only in your photographs, but in post-processing. I also would not recommend that "newbies" limit their initial critiques to beginners or low amateurs. They would be better served studying and critiquing the best photos they see and explaining why they like it, thus reinforcing in themselves what makes a good photo. For myself, I think this approach has been just as helpful as having my own work critiqued.
NPN is a special site that allows us to post our work for constructive feedback, unlike other sites where all you get are "likes", etc. As such, there is a cost to posting and that cost is providing critiques for others. Again, I would agree with Keith that we should aim for 10 comments per post.
Just my two cents worth.
Barbara, for the most part the CP ratio is a point of contention depending upon a persons own thoughts one way or another, or maybe not even at all for some folks.
Your point of participation goes a very long way. I've seen folks who were long time NPN strong participants but were not maybe real strong on posting or commenting. They remained active in the forums and such. An example was a person who posted travel items in a regional forum for years with lots of solid ideas, locations, and other input, but he very seldom posted images for review.
On the contrary are those just posting in galleries and then waiting for others to give them atta boys seems to be lacking in my book.
Again, the guidelines of 5-1 does not seem totally out of reach IMVHO. Although, over time 10-1 could be a long term goal too.