Posted by John Tobias on December 13, 2017 at 8:43 PM
There have been frequent pleas for more comments and critiques of posted photographs. Not sure why so few for many of the images in the various galleries. I wish to point out why they are important and worth doing. I recently posted a photo in the Avian gallery, I took of a great blue heron perched on an old tree trunk. The light was terrible to but it mildly, it was cold and windy. I thought I had made a decent image when I posted the photo. Then I was surprised to get 4-5 comments. Several were ways to improve the image. I could have taken the critiques the wrong way and done nothing, but instead I decided to try and use the suggestions to improve the photo. Results were an improved photo of the great blue heron which I have reposted. A much better rendition I decided. Without the comments I could have missed out on improving a photograph. The members who took the time to make comments I thank, and hope I will receive many more when I post. I do pay more attention to what I am posting since joining NPN and I encourage new and old members to increase their comments.
Posted by Barbara Graham on December 13, 2017 at 9:06 PM
Ditto to your remarks and especially ditto to the value of redoing the images based on the critiques and posting the redone image.
Posted by Bill Chambers on December 14, 2017 at 8:28 PM
You're correct, John, this has been an item of interest for many years here at NPN. I shoot landscape and years ago it was not uncommon to receive anywhere from 20 to 40 comments on an image. No more. Rarely do I see images today with more than 20 comments with the average probably being 7-10 comments (again, this is in Landscape Gallery). It's frustrating, and I don't know the answer. This next few sentences concern landscapers only. Honestly, and I don't mean this to be offensive to today's NPN shooters, there were more (and better) photographers here in the past. I'm talking about Guy Tal, Marc Adamus, Kurt Budliger, Ian Plant, Richard Bernabe, Kevin McNeal, Georg & Verena Popp, Juza, Cay-Uwe Kulzer, Zack Schnepf, Dan Baumbach, Ronnie Gaubert (now deceased), Dietrich Gloger, Mike Anderson (Hasselblad "Master of Light" recipient), Floris van Breugel, and many others I can't remember off hand. Many of these guys have moved on and began or continued their journey as full time professional nature photographers. I know, I just pissed off a ton of current NPN shooters. Don't be, I don't mean for even a second that there aren't some GREAT shooters here now, but there are fewer of them than in past years. The big difference now is that back then, all of those guys were actively commenting and helping out new-comers as well as old timers. I can't even begin to thank Guy Tal and Marc Adamus for all the help and advice they gave me back then, including separate private emails, etc. I don't see that kind of attitude here any more and it's sad. Truthfully, I know I'm guilty. As my semi-pro photo business has grown my spare time has become increasingly rare and I just don't find the time to visit NPN as much as I used to, but I do try to comment when I can. If anyone knows how NPN can attract, or re-attract, that kind of talent who is willing to share their knowledge here once again, I've love to know how.
Now, John, concerning your repost. I searched out your gallery and indeed, your repost is MUCH better than the original. Kudos to you for listening and taking the advice that was offered and reposting a beautiful image.
I think Bill has outlined a good history of NPN overall. The photogs mentioned were very strong as were many others at that time who have drifted off for various reasons.
Truthfully I see the changes here as well as other sites with all around participation being different from years back. If there was a poll held as to why folks moved on in another direction or surrendered entirely I think we would see a pattern among many. As well as the names you've listed there are an easy 10-15 I could mention that were very respectable photographers in their own right that we do not see or get to enjoy their work these days here at NPN either.
This subject has come up numerous times over the many years here at NPN and much of it circles back around to the lack of commenting participation. The folks you've mentioned here Bill not only received many comments on their work they also held much better then the advisable 5:1 C-P ratio themselves. But, that has long been over talked about as well.
Posted by Igor Doncov on December 15, 2017 at 4:44 AM
Perhaps the membership was greater back then, hence more comments. As I recall, membership was free back then. All you had to do was create an account. That could be the reason for greater participation. I'm not saying these people left due to the fees, though. I think they reached a level where comments weren't that useful.
Posted by Bill Chambers on December 15, 2017 at 7:35 AM
Hi Igor. No, there have always been fees for NPN as long as I have been here, 12 years, I think. There probably were more people here then however, probably due to less available sites elsewhere. Also, the fees were considerably less back then. However, the attitude was different back then; it seemed like more of a family, friends helping friends across the entire spectrum of degree of talent. I hope we can find our way back to that point with regard to comments and friendship.
Posted by Marjie Jones on December 15, 2017 at 1:59 PM
I don't often comment because everyone seems to know so much more than me. I came to this site often before I joined to look at all of the beautiful photographs. In fact, this site is one of my "Happy Places." When things get too stressful at work, (I am a Jr. High school librarian) I hop on over to look at the photos. I believe that the more great photos you see, the more able you will be to see and take great photos of your own. I love seeing photos from all over the world, and everyone has always been kind to me. I just don't feel like I have the experience to help someone who is having trouble with a photo. Most of my comments would be gushing over how much I love a photo, and that doesn't seem very helpful. But, if you don't mind gushing, I will try to step up my game, and comment more often.
Posted by Brian Murphy on December 15, 2017 at 7:17 PM
John, there is always a lot of encouragement for people to comment on photos but I have to admit that I personally do not feel qualified to critique anyone's photos at this time. I have a lot to learn and try to learn from critiques on other photographers photos but at this point and time I feel I should read and learn. I wonder if anyone else feels the same way.
I do love this site, everyone has been great with teaching so I hope to continue learning.
Thanks,
Brian
Marjie & Brian, after reading both your comments in this post I can assure that you will also learn by commenting too. No doubt there is always a grace period or learning curve associated with most things in life, but at some point one must dive in head first.
The list of photographers that Bill had mentioned in his first comment had their first days as photographers and the start of their learning cycle as well. I've been very lucky to have met a few of those folks and several others in the field over time that were and still are NPN members. Although not everyone has the same goals or ambitions associated with posting images, but at the same time there truly is more to their posted images then just a "travelogue" photo in most cases. Many apply a lot of effort in obtaining and processing the images they've posted. So any acknowledgement or comment on their posted images goes a long way to helping keep the site healthy for it's intended purpose.
So, please set aside any negative thoughts on where and how to get started in the highly needed commenting process. I guarantee it will help you improve your own work. I found it much easier in the beginning to comment on images then I did for posting my own work. Having others finding the holes I missed in my own work took me more time to improve on that front then making solid observations & comments on others work.
Posted by scott lanz on December 16, 2017 at 11:26 AM
Just to follow up on Paul, commenting does not require expertise. Anyone can say what they like (and do not like) about a photo. Even that can be helpful to both the photographer who posted the image and the person who is commenting, particular if they take the time to give the image and their comment some careful thought.
Like many of you, I too have noticed the dearth of comments/critiques. The primary reason for this is that the 'active' membership at NPN has declined greatly over the years as other venues have become more prominent. Secondarily, I would suspect that there are more important demands on their time that preclude writing comments. Thirdly, as mentioned above, newer folks at NPN do not feel qualified to write critiques.
In light of my first point, I will make a suggestion...
If you know of a photographer (some of whom Bill mentioned) who was once very active and helpful at NPN, reach out to them via e-mail, Facebook, Instagram, etc. and recruit them to return. Not only would their return add greatly to the content of NPN, their return would add to the quality of comments and inspire others to do the same.
Along the same vein, when folks rejoin NPN, the funds accrued by their membership help Jim 'keep the lights on' and continue to make improvements to the NPN website.
I know, and appreciate, that we all have time constraints. However, I find it somewhat disconcerting that some members will post an image and, for what ever reason, do not comment on the work of others. If you (rhetorical) find this to be true for yourself, I encourage you to comment on five images for each one you post. Not only will you receive comments in return, you will have added to the breadth and depth of NPN.
In regard to not feeling qualified to write a critique, I agree with Paul and Scott, to simply 'check your reservations at the door' and dive in. Making observations about the work of others and posting them will allow you to think more critically about your own photography. This is a 'win-win' not only for you, but for other photographers and the NPN community as a whole.
*****
Now, I would like to address the underlined portion of this comment from Bill:
The big difference now is that back then, all of those guys were actively commenting and helping out new-comers as well as old timers'... ...I don't see that kind of attitude here any more and it's sad.
I do not think this is a fair statement, Bill. The majority of comments I read from the, albeit, small group of people are insightful and helpful, and a majority of these folks have very high comment to post ratios. Additionally, I do see folks helping out the newcomers via suggestions and encouragement. Although I cannot say with certainty how many of us old timers provide help behind the scenes (say, via e-mail), but I do know that it does occur.
Bill, if you would care to elucidate on your assertion, I am certainly open to hear your thoughts, either here or via -email.
*******
I have been a member of NPN for over 15 years. The help, encouragement, and inspiration I have received here is immeasurable. To all members, past and present, I thank you.
My final suggestion is this: When you post an image, you are asking for folks to please comment. When you do receive comments, be sure to thank them. A 'thank you' goes a long way.
--P
Posted by Bill Chambers on December 19, 2017 at 3:19 PM
Hi Preston,
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Sorry it's taken me so long to respond; I saw your response the other day but I just have not had time to sit down and respond until now.
After thinking about your main point of contention (the underlined section), I have to happily admit "you nailed me!". I've thought about it, I've glanced at some recent comments others have made and, ashamedly, I must admit I probably indicted MYSELF more than anyone else in the NPN community. It's true we don't have the depth and breadth of talent we used to enjoy here, but when I looked back last night, we still do have a group of Old Timers who still respond faithfully with excellent advice and encouragement. We also have those who haven't been around as long perhaps, but who are still faithful in commenting often. Being honest, my "complaint" seems to really only hold water when it's applied to (drum roll) ME. I'm afraid I don't visit NPN anywhere close to how often I used to, I still comment occasionally when I have time but usually only on friend's images, and I haven't posted in a good while. Unfortunately, I can't promise I will do any better in the future either. I am working hard currently at increasing my art sales dramatically for 2018. They have increased nicely over the past two years but still no where close to where I want and need them to be, and my efforts to increase them even further have left me little time to take part in NPN and other areas I enjoy so much. To summarize, I was indeed incorrect in my statement, and I appreciate you taking me to task over it.
Now, concerning your suggestion that we invite some of the old crowd back into NPN, I think that's a great idea, but unlikely to happen. I still work my "day" job, even though I reduced my hours down to 24 hours/week, and the remainder of my time I'm working to increase my art sales, and this leaves me with precious little free time. The guys and gals who left and depend on art sales, workshops, talks, etc. for 100% of their income have it MUCH tougher than I. At 66 years young, I don't know if I could keep up with their work schedule for more than, say, 1 day maybe. LOL. My point is, they probably have no time to visit NPN any longer, sadly.
Concerning those who don't feel qualified to critique, that's easy. Don't critique, but EVERYONE is qualified to make a comment. Most of us, when we were new to NPN, didn't feel qualified to critique. However, shooters on any level can comment that they like an image or if an image really touches them emotionally or not. That is your opinion, and your are entitled to share it. It takes ZERO expertise to share your opinion on how an image makes you feel. After breaking the ice with these types of comments for a while, you will notice a difference. One, you will notice that YOU will receive more comments on your work. Two, you will begin to make friends with the NPN or specific gallery community. Three, you will begin to learn a great deal more about photography, art, composition, et al by taking part, studying the images of others, sharing emails with your "new" friends behind the scenes. I kid you not, you will learn FAR more by commenting on other's work than you ever will by just receiving comments on your work. Genuinely study the images you admire, figure out WHY you like them so much - is it the time of day it was taken, the composition, the subject matter, whatever... Then start implementing what you've learning, taking one tidbit of learned knowledge from this person, another tidbit from someone else, and so on. Your photography will get better and better and, after a time, "your" style will develop. After that, refine your style constantly, looking for ways to improve it, try new techniques, share ideas with your new-found friends on NPN. All this will come when you start the simple process of commenting that you "like" someone's image. Try it, give it time, and you will reap handsome dividends.
My, my, my, I've more than used my allotted time and space. Sorry about that.
Preston, as always, take you again, and take care!
Posted by Igor Doncov on December 19, 2017 at 6:14 PM
I'm not sure that the quality of comments are lower than before. A good photographer doesn't necessarily write helpful comments. That's was true in the past and is true now as well. Many of the good landscape images have remained and you can decide for yourself.
I agree that bringing back the old photographers would be very hard. Without knowing why they left it's hard to make a case to bring them back. I tried with Dietrich and it lasted only a couple of months. Unfortunately, it could be a snowballing effect. The more the accomplished photographers leave the less desire for the others to stay.
I agree that bringing back the old photographers would be very hard. Without knowing why they left it's hard to make a case to bring them back. I tried with Dietrich and it lasted only a couple of months. Unfortunately, it could be a snowballing effect. The more the accomplished photographers leave the less desire for the others to stay.
Igor, I agree with your comment. I would add that although many of the folks Bill listed were strong photogs there is a huge list of others that have traveled through NPN at various times. I came up with 20 additional strong photogs that were not mentioned on Bill's list. So, a lot of talent over the years.
What I would also add is that most all of those folks were on Bill's list and my list were pretty reciprocal with their comments. With that said, I personally do not see that taking place any longer. Hence the decline in comments and participation overall.....IMO.
Posted by Igor Doncov on December 20, 2017 at 1:33 AM
Well, I guess I'll be a little controversial here. I'm not sure I like the idea of comment reciprocity. There are a number of posters here that virtually never comment on my images even though I have in some cases commented on every one of theirs. That doesn't bother me because I see it all as being about the image and not the author. It's impersonal. I either want to comment on what I see or I don't. The idea that I had better comment on someone's work for fear that they won't comment on mine is not the way I want it to be. That's how it should be but in reality it's different.
Posted by Lon Overacker on December 20, 2017 at 1:44 AM
John,
Thanks for bringing up this topic - although year after year its become a bit of a broken record. We all know the comments have declined over the years, but no one can pinpoint why.
It's pretty easy to identify and list all those great and talented photographers who no longer participate. Bill, you have clearly identified one of the obvious issues why some of these great members no longer participate - they're busy making a living. (And I appreciate your candor.) I applaud and envy those who have the courage and talent to pursue a career in photography. I guarantee all those named who are making a living at this (of course, not all are, but remain talented,) will agree it's a difficult pursuit - and so many fail at it. If you write books, produce tutorials/apps, lead workshops... you need clients. Where would you go to get customers? I'm guessing that many countless members of NPN, NSN, FM and all the other online forums.... are customers of all those talented folks attempting to make a living at photography. So while it's true so many of these former members magnanimously helped fellow members, let's acknowledge that there's a lot of marketing of oneself going on... (again, I fully support and would do the same if I had the marketing savvy to make money with my passion...)
This is an excellent conversation and rather than address many of the good points or challenge others, I wanted to touch on something that has not been addressed - and frankly has never been addressed in all the years of this concern about dropping participation.
There is an elephant in the room that no one is talking about. Like Paul, I could start listing names that Bill could have continued listing. Easy to identify the names we remember and recognize. Who is counting all the beginners, the new members who drop off after few months? The good, the average photographer wanting to learn? The newbie?, who grew tremendously by our collective help? Who's counting those names? I could name names here too.
I don't have any data to back this up, but it's my contention - that elephant in the room, that there are considerably more members without the name recognition who no longer participate than those we could all list without looking? Maybe we should concentrate on bringing back those folks?
My observation is that it's simply a numbers game. It has nothing to do with any attitude on helping others, or not - I don't think there is anything "sad" about those of us long-term members remaining - but it's correct to say there are just fewer of us. 5 years ago, we had a similar number of postings (in Landscape/ESS) as we do today. What's different? The quantity - or the pool of people with the desire (and ability) to post comments. To that, I do believe that cutting off comments from non-paying members made a significant impact and is in part, one of the variables contributing to the decline. (It's not the paying members as someone mentioned, but the ability of non-paying members to make comments.) In other words, currently, we just don't have the numbers to generate 20-40 comments that Bill so fondly recalls. I think my record was 54 comments. I'd say a comment today that gets more than 20, is just about equivalent to a post 5 years ago that got 40.
The problem of a certain, small percentage of the population that post frequently and comment rarely.... that really hasn't changed. What's changed? Again, it's a numbers game. We simply don't have the same quantity pool of members who are willing (or able via membership) to take the time to comment and critique images. The solution? Sorry to bring politics in to this, but if you want to increase tax revenues.... you increase the number of people who pay taxes.... or simply, we need new, or returning members.... So if we're going to recruit - and so far we're in agreement we're not going to bring back the popular names of the past... we need to recruit photographers who are passionate about photography that want to be part of a helpful community.
I told myself I wasn't going to name names and start listing folks.... but what NPN needs is a 100 more Ed McGuirk's. I applaud new member Ed for coming in, showcasing his work... but more importantly embracing the idea of commenting on other people's work. Thank you Ed for providing an example to follow.
I'm not sure I like the idea of comment reciprocity.
@ Igor, my verbiage "reciprocity" was not the perfect choice here. I should have said; "commenting at all". One should never get into a tit-for-tat mode. So, you're correct on that point for sure.
@ Lon, I do not ever recall non-paying members or visitors having been able to comment. That is news to me after all these years. I could see why that would impact the comment count overall. Anyway, never really been into the "total" receipt of comments thing, but again, any commenting keeps the site going for it's intended purpose. Unless the thought was only to post, pass, & review. And that's OK too I guess.
Posted by Barbara Graham on December 20, 2017 at 9:45 AM
If the site is supposed to be a critique site, then what would be reasons people would post here if they don't actually want critiques (like the best of the best you guys have been talking about)? I agree that life is way too busy for coming here just to critique other posts if you don't have something like a connection you've made with people at NPN. And if you've made those connections, there probably is private support being given also.
I think it's too late for this now with what I consider the positive developments in many places to post pictures that are now far beyond what other sites used to be as far as "patting people on the back" sites, such as Facebook groups that are completely about nature with photography second, but I remember a long time ago there was a suggestion from someone about dividing NPN into two sections, one for images requesting critiques and another for images not requesting critiques. I think that probably could have worked back then, and the people posting images not requesting critiques would have almost certainly given critiques to help others at that time. But, like I said, I think it's probably way too late for that now.
I, too, realize that this has come up constantly during the seven years or so that I've been here. But when you mention only receiving 20 comments in the landscape gallery, please understand that in most other galleries the comments now are far, far less than that, in general, whether for the best photographers or the newest would-be photographers. I feel a real connection with quite a few people here, but I think people without that connection won't spend the time to go through the effort to post here (1600 or 1200, 720, all the technical information) to receive from zero to a half dozen (which is rare in some galleries) comments. I hope I've expressed myself clearly. If I missed the mark on that, I'll clear anything up if anybody asks about it.
Posted by Lon Overacker on December 20, 2017 at 10:49 AM
Hey Paul - You may be right and I'm probably not remembering correctly. Maybe someone else can chime in. But I recall there being a change in membership; oh, maybe 5 years ago, or so? I thought there was something that changed about what members and non-paying members could see and/or do. I thought a non-member could comment, but couldn't post images?
Maybe Jim or someone else can recall those changes. And again, it's just one piece of the overall puzzle.
And Barbara, yes, I failed to mention the other galleries and you are absolutely correct. I'm guilty myself of not commenting in other galleries, although I always make an effort to comment on at least 5 when I post say in POP or PA. I would agree with you and others that when deciding where to put an image, most will gravitate to Landscape simply because there is more activity and greater chance of getting more comments and critiques.
Hey Paul - You may be right and I'm probably not remembering correctly. Maybe someone else can chime in. But I recall there being a change in membership; oh, maybe 5 years ago, or so? I thought there was something that changed about what members and non-paying members could see and/or do. I thought a non-member could comment, but couldn't post images?
Lon, now that you mention this and make a point on it maybe so. I for one cannot say I recall that member / non-member commenting ability. If there was that ability for non-members that could have made a difference for sure in overall participation. I was one of those folks that drifted in on the coat tails with a team of excellent photographers I knew for 3 or so years before we all came to NPN. Marc Adamus, John Benway, and Mike Dawson were those members. Seems like a zillion years ago now. I'm still in touch with John, but have not talked to Marc & Mike in a few years now. Anyway, all 3 are missed for their personal touch & quality of workmanship IMO.
Posted by Igor Doncov on December 20, 2017 at 2:13 PM
When I first stated that non-paying members could comment in the past it was from personal experience. I had an account called just Igor through which I wrote comments. If you search under that name you will still see the comments on old images of Marc, Adamus, and Floris. I became ill during that time and stopped posting altogether. When I came back I discovered I couldn't post comments altogether and an email from Jim explained that the policy had changed. It's such a small for me that it made no difference but by 2014 you could tell that participation had changed.
I agree with Barbara that in most of the non-landscape sites the participation is appalling. I think the Avian gallery is strong as well if I'm not mistaken. There's probably a threshold of comments below which a member thinks of leaving. As Lon has stated this subject has been worked to death. However, nothing really has been done. Gotta build a better mousetrap.
When I first stated that non-paying members could comment in the past it was from personal experience.
Igor, thanks for that information. I did not recall that bit of site history. Admittedly that change could have added to the decline in comments, but reality is after MANY discussions on the subject that in the end the decline is based upon several factors. The site functionality works very well and the overall design has been tweaked a few times in hopes it would meet participant needs and wants. So, I guess for the most part it is really up to folks involved to just make the best of what is in place.
Discussion
21 repliesNow, John, concerning your repost. I searched out your gallery and indeed, your repost is MUCH better than the original. Kudos to you for listening and taking the advice that was offered and reposting a beautiful image.
Truthfully I see the changes here as well as other sites with all around participation being different from years back. If there was a poll held as to why folks moved on in another direction or surrendered entirely I think we would see a pattern among many. As well as the names you've listed there are an easy 10-15 I could mention that were very respectable photographers in their own right that we do not see or get to enjoy their work these days here at NPN either.
This subject has come up numerous times over the many years here at NPN and much of it circles back around to the lack of commenting participation. The folks you've mentioned here Bill not only received many comments on their work they also held much better then the advisable 5:1 C-P ratio themselves. But, that has long been over talked about as well.
I do love this site, everyone has been great with teaching so I hope to continue learning.
Thanks,
Brian
The list of photographers that Bill had mentioned in his first comment had their first days as photographers and the start of their learning cycle as well. I've been very lucky to have met a few of those folks and several others in the field over time that were and still are NPN members. Although not everyone has the same goals or ambitions associated with posting images, but at the same time there truly is more to their posted images then just a "travelogue" photo in most cases. Many apply a lot of effort in obtaining and processing the images they've posted. So any acknowledgement or comment on their posted images goes a long way to helping keep the site healthy for it's intended purpose.
So, please set aside any negative thoughts on where and how to get started in the highly needed commenting process. I guarantee it will help you improve your own work. I found it much easier in the beginning to comment on images then I did for posting my own work. Having others finding the holes I missed in my own work took me more time to improve on that front then making solid observations & comments on others work.
In light of my first point, I will make a suggestion...
If you know of a photographer (some of whom Bill mentioned) who was once very active and helpful at NPN, reach out to them via e-mail, Facebook, Instagram, etc. and recruit them to return. Not only would their return add greatly to the content of NPN, their return would add to the quality of comments and inspire others to do the same.
Along the same vein, when folks rejoin NPN, the funds accrued by their membership help Jim 'keep the lights on' and continue to make improvements to the NPN website.
I know, and appreciate, that we all have time constraints. However, I find it somewhat disconcerting that some members will post an image and, for what ever reason, do not comment on the work of others. If you (rhetorical) find this to be true for yourself, I encourage you to comment on five images for each one you post. Not only will you receive comments in return, you will have added to the breadth and depth of NPN.
In regard to not feeling qualified to write a critique, I agree with Paul and Scott, to simply 'check your reservations at the door' and dive in. Making observations about the work of others and posting them will allow you to think more critically about your own photography. This is a 'win-win' not only for you, but for other photographers and the NPN community as a whole.
*****
Now, I would like to address the underlined portion of this comment from Bill:
I do not think this is a fair statement, Bill. The majority of comments I read from the, albeit, small group of people are insightful and helpful, and a majority of these folks have very high comment to post ratios. Additionally, I do see folks helping out the newcomers via suggestions and encouragement. Although I cannot say with certainty how many of us old timers provide help behind the scenes (say, via e-mail), but I do know that it does occur.
Bill, if you would care to elucidate on your assertion, I am certainly open to hear your thoughts, either here or via -email.
*******
I have been a member of NPN for over 15 years. The help, encouragement, and inspiration I have received here is immeasurable. To all members, past and present, I thank you.
My final suggestion is this: When you post an image, you are asking for folks to please comment. When you do receive comments, be sure to thank them. A 'thank you' goes a long way.
--P
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Sorry it's taken me so long to respond; I saw your response the other day but I just have not had time to sit down and respond until now.
After thinking about your main point of contention (the underlined section), I have to happily admit "you nailed me!". I've thought about it, I've glanced at some recent comments others have made and, ashamedly, I must admit I probably indicted MYSELF more than anyone else in the NPN community. It's true we don't have the depth and breadth of talent we used to enjoy here, but when I looked back last night, we still do have a group of Old Timers who still respond faithfully with excellent advice and encouragement. We also have those who haven't been around as long perhaps, but who are still faithful in commenting often. Being honest, my "complaint" seems to really only hold water when it's applied to (drum roll) ME. I'm afraid I don't visit NPN anywhere close to how often I used to, I still comment occasionally when I have time but usually only on friend's images, and I haven't posted in a good while. Unfortunately, I can't promise I will do any better in the future either. I am working hard currently at increasing my art sales dramatically for 2018. They have increased nicely over the past two years but still no where close to where I want and need them to be, and my efforts to increase them even further have left me little time to take part in NPN and other areas I enjoy so much. To summarize, I was indeed incorrect in my statement, and I appreciate you taking me to task over it.
Now, concerning your suggestion that we invite some of the old crowd back into NPN, I think that's a great idea, but unlikely to happen. I still work my "day" job, even though I reduced my hours down to 24 hours/week, and the remainder of my time I'm working to increase my art sales, and this leaves me with precious little free time. The guys and gals who left and depend on art sales, workshops, talks, etc. for 100% of their income have it MUCH tougher than I. At 66 years young, I don't know if I could keep up with their work schedule for more than, say, 1 day maybe. LOL. My point is, they probably have no time to visit NPN any longer, sadly.
Concerning those who don't feel qualified to critique, that's easy. Don't critique, but EVERYONE is qualified to make a comment. Most of us, when we were new to NPN, didn't feel qualified to critique. However, shooters on any level can comment that they like an image or if an image really touches them emotionally or not. That is your opinion, and your are entitled to share it. It takes ZERO expertise to share your opinion on how an image makes you feel. After breaking the ice with these types of comments for a while, you will notice a difference. One, you will notice that YOU will receive more comments on your work. Two, you will begin to make friends with the NPN or specific gallery community. Three, you will begin to learn a great deal more about photography, art, composition, et al by taking part, studying the images of others, sharing emails with your "new" friends behind the scenes. I kid you not, you will learn FAR more by commenting on other's work than you ever will by just receiving comments on your work. Genuinely study the images you admire, figure out WHY you like them so much - is it the time of day it was taken, the composition, the subject matter, whatever... Then start implementing what you've learning, taking one tidbit of learned knowledge from this person, another tidbit from someone else, and so on. Your photography will get better and better and, after a time, "your" style will develop. After that, refine your style constantly, looking for ways to improve it, try new techniques, share ideas with your new-found friends on NPN. All this will come when you start the simple process of commenting that you "like" someone's image. Try it, give it time, and you will reap handsome dividends.
My, my, my, I've more than used my allotted time and space. Sorry about that.
Preston, as always, take you again, and take care!
I agree that bringing back the old photographers would be very hard. Without knowing why they left it's hard to make a case to bring them back. I tried with Dietrich and it lasted only a couple of months. Unfortunately, it could be a snowballing effect. The more the accomplished photographers leave the less desire for the others to stay.
Igor, I agree with your comment. I would add that although many of the folks Bill listed were strong photogs there is a huge list of others that have traveled through NPN at various times. I came up with 20 additional strong photogs that were not mentioned on Bill's list. So, a lot of talent over the years.
What I would also add is that most all of those folks were on Bill's list and my list were pretty reciprocal with their comments. With that said, I personally do not see that taking place any longer. Hence the decline in comments and participation overall.....IMO.
Thanks for bringing up this topic - although year after year its become a bit of a broken record. We all know the comments have declined over the years, but no one can pinpoint why.
It's pretty easy to identify and list all those great and talented photographers who no longer participate. Bill, you have clearly identified one of the obvious issues why some of these great members no longer participate - they're busy making a living. (And I appreciate your candor.) I applaud and envy those who have the courage and talent to pursue a career in photography. I guarantee all those named who are making a living at this (of course, not all are, but remain talented,) will agree it's a difficult pursuit - and so many fail at it. If you write books, produce tutorials/apps, lead workshops... you need clients. Where would you go to get customers? I'm guessing that many countless members of NPN, NSN, FM and all the other online forums.... are customers of all those talented folks attempting to make a living at photography. So while it's true so many of these former members magnanimously helped fellow members, let's acknowledge that there's a lot of marketing of oneself going on... (again, I fully support and would do the same if I had the marketing savvy to make money with my passion...)
This is an excellent conversation and rather than address many of the good points or challenge others, I wanted to touch on something that has not been addressed - and frankly has never been addressed in all the years of this concern about dropping participation.
There is an elephant in the room that no one is talking about. Like Paul, I could start listing names that Bill could have continued listing. Easy to identify the names we remember and recognize. Who is counting all the beginners, the new members who drop off after few months? The good, the average photographer wanting to learn? The newbie?, who grew tremendously by our collective help? Who's counting those names? I could name names here too.
I don't have any data to back this up, but it's my contention - that elephant in the room, that there are considerably more members without the name recognition who no longer participate than those we could all list without looking? Maybe we should concentrate on bringing back those folks?
My observation is that it's simply a numbers game. It has nothing to do with any attitude on helping others, or not - I don't think there is anything "sad" about those of us long-term members remaining - but it's correct to say there are just fewer of us. 5 years ago, we had a similar number of postings (in Landscape/ESS) as we do today. What's different? The quantity - or the pool of people with the desire (and ability) to post comments. To that, I do believe that cutting off comments from non-paying members made a significant impact and is in part, one of the variables contributing to the decline. (It's not the paying members as someone mentioned, but the ability of non-paying members to make comments.) In other words, currently, we just don't have the numbers to generate 20-40 comments that Bill so fondly recalls. I think my record was 54 comments. I'd say a comment today that gets more than 20, is just about equivalent to a post 5 years ago that got 40.
The problem of a certain, small percentage of the population that post frequently and comment rarely.... that really hasn't changed. What's changed? Again, it's a numbers game. We simply don't have the same quantity pool of members who are willing (or able via membership) to take the time to comment and critique images. The solution? Sorry to bring politics in to this, but if you want to increase tax revenues.... you increase the number of people who pay taxes.... or simply, we need new, or returning members.... So if we're going to recruit - and so far we're in agreement we're not going to bring back the popular names of the past... we need to recruit photographers who are passionate about photography that want to be part of a helpful community.
I told myself I wasn't going to name names and start listing folks.... but what NPN needs is a 100 more Ed McGuirk's. I applaud new member Ed for coming in, showcasing his work... but more importantly embracing the idea of commenting on other people's work. Thank you Ed for providing an example to follow.
Lon
@ Igor, my verbiage "reciprocity" was not the perfect choice here. I should have said; "commenting at all". One should never get into a tit-for-tat mode. So, you're correct on that point for sure.
@ Lon, I do not ever recall non-paying members or visitors having been able to comment. That is news to me after all these years. I could see why that would impact the comment count overall. Anyway, never really been into the "total" receipt of comments thing, but again, any commenting keeps the site going for it's intended purpose. Unless the thought was only to post, pass, & review. And that's OK too I guess.
I think it's too late for this now with what I consider the positive developments in many places to post pictures that are now far beyond what other sites used to be as far as "patting people on the back" sites, such as Facebook groups that are completely about nature with photography second, but I remember a long time ago there was a suggestion from someone about dividing NPN into two sections, one for images requesting critiques and another for images not requesting critiques. I think that probably could have worked back then, and the people posting images not requesting critiques would have almost certainly given critiques to help others at that time. But, like I said, I think it's probably way too late for that now.
I, too, realize that this has come up constantly during the seven years or so that I've been here. But when you mention only receiving 20 comments in the landscape gallery, please understand that in most other galleries the comments now are far, far less than that, in general, whether for the best photographers or the newest would-be photographers. I feel a real connection with quite a few people here, but I think people without that connection won't spend the time to go through the effort to post here (1600 or 1200, 720, all the technical information) to receive from zero to a half dozen (which is rare in some galleries) comments. I hope I've expressed myself clearly. If I missed the mark on that, I'll clear anything up if anybody asks about it.
Maybe Jim or someone else can recall those changes. And again, it's just one piece of the overall puzzle.
And Barbara, yes, I failed to mention the other galleries and you are absolutely correct. I'm guilty myself of not commenting in other galleries, although I always make an effort to comment on at least 5 when I post say in POP or PA. I would agree with you and others that when deciding where to put an image, most will gravitate to Landscape simply because there is more activity and greater chance of getting more comments and critiques.
Mystery continues...
Lon, now that you mention this and make a point on it maybe so. I for one cannot say I recall that member / non-member commenting ability. If there was that ability for non-members that could have made a difference for sure in overall participation. I was one of those folks that drifted in on the coat tails with a team of excellent photographers I knew for 3 or so years before we all came to NPN. Marc Adamus, John Benway, and Mike Dawson were those members. Seems like a zillion years ago now. I'm still in touch with John, but have not talked to Marc & Mike in a few years now. Anyway, all 3 are missed for their personal touch & quality of workmanship IMO.
I agree with Barbara that in most of the non-landscape sites the participation is appalling. I think the Avian gallery is strong as well if I'm not mistaken. There's probably a threshold of comments below which a member thinks of leaving. As Lon has stated this subject has been worked to death. However, nothing really has been done. Gotta build a better mousetrap.
Igor, thanks for that information. I did not recall that bit of site history. Admittedly that change could have added to the decline in comments, but reality is after MANY discussions on the subject that in the end the decline is based upon several factors. The site functionality works very well and the overall design has been tweaked a few times in hopes it would meet participant needs and wants. So, I guess for the most part it is really up to folks involved to just make the best of what is in place.